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Pontiac GTO



  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 20,476
    the GTO won't be much like anything else available new in the USA. G35s, Foresters and so on are very nice automobiles for the money but they aren't 300+hp V8 muscle cars.

    The closest "apple" IMO will be the '05 Mustang (available in Fall '04). There are some obvious resemblances. Both are RWD V8-powered reiterations of 1960's classics with more or less 2+2 seating.

    There are also some obvious differences-

    Only one is available in convertible form, only one will offer IRS in standard trim, only one offers a powerhouse V8 in base form.

    Prices (est)

    $24k V8 Mustang coupe> $42k Cobra 'vert ('06)
    $34k GTO w 6 speed ($650 extra)

    I find both intriguing for much the same reasons
    and I don't think we'll know which has more bang for the buck until the Cobra SVT emerges in '06.

    Meanwhile I really don't care if a Civic goes for half what a Goat does.

    Can you say "irrelevant"?

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • I'm looking around for what car I'm going to buy next, and after hearing so much about the GTO I decided to look into it. After doing that, I can only ask why they are even offering it. 35 grand? Two doors, but no faster than my current 25k 4-door buggy? Or a new Neon, for that matter? I keep looking for a US make car that fits my wants/needs, but I just cant find it. If this were 4 doors and 30k or less, I'd consider it. All I see here is an overpriced two-door "semi-muscle-car" that kinda gives Pontiac something to talk about where they would otherwise have none. Seems like just more of the GM shell-game to me, and a continued affliction with nostalgia-based car ideas. I'm not young. I grew up at a gas station, I built muscle cars. But that was 1960's. I dont need to do that again. And if I were going to, it'd be with an original muscle car, or a current Vette or Cobra . Now that's a muscle car, where you can legitimately talk of the benefits of low-rev "launches" and what not. The GTO is not muscle, and not practical either. Pass.
  • The GOAT better live up to it's reputation though. For all the horsepower it has this thing is one very heavy vehicle. If it does'nt do the quarter in the 13's and 60 in 5.5 seconds it's over. Ford learned the hard way with the Marauder that a "muscle car" better have plenty of muscle. If I spent that kind of money on a car I'd expect that it could at least keep up with a Dodge Neon SRT or a Subaru mini van! I grew up with GTO's, Mustangs and Cudas and I'd love to see it succeed. I would hope that GM thought this through better than Mercury did.
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    GTO will do 0-60 in less than 5.5 secs.
    I will guarantee it and take bets.

    Cam in LS1 is not radical. It actually has more torque over a wider band.

    LS6 intake doesn't really provide any more power.
    Many 2001 and 2002 Fbods had it installed from the factory.

    I want to reiterate my comment aboout the Subaru and how it also applies to the Neon, and any other car for that matter.

    We can take a Neon SRT and a GTO and run them from a 5 mph roll and the GTo will beat it.

    I have raced many of these 4 cylinders in my IROC.
    They are supposed to be faster but I beat them everytime.
    They simply don't have the low end torque to compete in the stoplight grand prix.

    Magazine numbers are great but they often don't translate to the real world.
  • and generalizing an awful lot, too. I've owned/built a lot of V8's in my day. Nobody disputes the lowend torque, the power, the thunder, the yada yada yada. Done it lived it, raced it, on the strip, on the road course, on the street. That's a pretty narrow view of what a car should be to the average buyer. The discussion is about weather the car makes sense for the money, not about v8 vs import 4 cylinder. As a muscle car the GTO does not cut it (in my opinion) compared to a real muscle car, or nostalgia car in other words. And it is not as versatile, practical or affordable as the 4 cylinder turbo jobbies. So it may be in no-man's land at that price. That's the point that was made. I'll make one more too: This car or any other "pretend" muscle car will be enough to save Pontiac in the long run. The brand is only slightly relevant here in the states, and certainly is totally irrelevant everywhere else in the world. No brand can survive in the future by being US-focused only. It is just not economically viable anymore.
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    GTO is hardly a pretend musclecar.
    It is far superior to anything available in the 70's.
    The IRS alone probably costs $2000 retail.
    The interior is more expensive, etc.
    SLP sells a cam/head package for the LS1 that bumps it to 470 HP.
    Which is about 600 SAE gross hp.

    The styling may not be to everyone's taste but it
    is the most passenger oriented musclecar I have ever seen.

    Besides, it won't be long before we will be buying these things near invoice + $2-3000 rebate like all GM cars. LOL.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,961
    you comment that you like the vette, but not this. I don't get it. You do realize this has the vette drivetrain along with more of the practicality you speak of, right??

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,961
    A Mazda6? You're comparing a Mazda6 to this? You're kidding, right? Hey, I love Mazda, I really do, but the 6s even with a stick can't get its bloated butt to 60 in less than 7 secs on a perfect day with the best driver. And the tests show that it doesn't even outhandle its primary Japanese competitors. So is a comfy 4-seater Vette worth $8K more than that? I say without a doubt.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,961
    Geez. Its funny. You are right. I started out here thinking this car was overpriced and I said so. But having more and more people come on here and bring up the prices and performance of other cars is only turning me more and more to the dark side and thinking that this car is relatively well-priced.

    oh, and by the way, in regards to the age thing, everyone, I'll be 30 by the time this car hits the streets. Just old enough to remember some great muscle cars roaming the streets and just young enough to still want a coupe and at a good point in my career and life that I could afford it. So i think the target group is pretty accurate.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    I'd be more worried about the tires. Small size more appropriate for a Buick. Not a lot of contact rubber. Compare to tire sizes used in Corvette, Camaro/Firebird/Trans Am V8, or '94-'96 Impala SS V8. All that power, the 6-speed manual transmission, and LSD...going to go thru tiny tires.

    What specific brand and model of tire is used? Would be nice if they splurged for Michelin Pilot Sports!
  • qbrozen - I think you missed my point. Of course the Mazda 6s has far less horsepower. But I drove one recently and it handled like it was on rails and had excellent build quality. I'd like much more than just a big-[non-permissible content removed] motor to blast off the line for my $34k (like a moonroof as another example).

    riez - you and I are on the same page

    b4z - I hope you are right on pricing. I really want to love this car and may still break down and buy one yet.
  • The Mazda 6s has 220 HP and weighs 3243 lbs.

    The GTO has 350 HP but weighs 3725 lbs. With an average size driver you're looking at almost 2 tons on those punny tires.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,961
    I think I hit right on your point. The Mazda is not that stellar of a handler compared to other cars today. Autoweek stated just this week that the Honda and Toyota beat it in their slalom test. And I think you are going to be surprised at the Goat's handling [maybe it will need new tires, see below for more on that] (just like the current Vette is such a monster at the track AND the dragstrip).

    You're right that the Mazda isn't necessarily heavy... until you look at power to weight ratios. If they could have shaved it down to 3k lbs, they could have come in right between nissan and honda:

    mazda6s 14.74 lbs/hp
    Accord v6 14.1 lbs/hp
    Altima v6 13.05 lbs/hp
    GTO 10.64 lbs/hp

    Again, I'm not saying the Mazda is necessarily bad, but comparing it to this car is ridiculous. You may as well start comparing a Miata to a convertible Vette.

    Tires? I've never had a car that came with decent tires from the factory. That's not hard to fix.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    qbrozen... Are you saying buyers should just scrap the tires on their brand new car and spend $800-1200 up front buying new tires? Why can't GM get it right up front? Heck, a $20,000 Hyundai Tiburon V6 6-speed comes with relatively meaty Michelin Pilot Sports. Shouldn't a $33-35,000 GTO come with rubber as good?

    I can picture Pontiac dealers with piles of brand new GTO tires rotting out back. And the UPS driver bringing new tires to them from Tire Rack every day. :)
  • Excellent points. Hadn't thought of it that way. I'll have to check out Autoweek.

    Glad to see things more lively around here. I had started visiting that "other website" you guys refer to. On the other hand I'm not getting anything done here at work.

    Oh well, happy Friday!
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,961
    I always read of people doing this. Heck, I've seen many do it before even driving the car home from the dealership.

    Ok, I don't even know, what brand tires are coming on this? I must have missed that post.

    As far as size, the Tiburon comes with 205/55/16s. Someone here listed the GTO as having 225/50/17s. So, as a matter of fact, the Goat's tires ARE wider than the Tib. The Tib's are actually the same exact ones on my Volvo T5 and I do find those pretty decent although I'd like a little better wet traction.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,961
    It was autoweek on speed channel. Haven't seen the mag (I let my subscription lapse) so you'll have to let me know if its in there and if there are more details.

    This is still alot of speculation since we haven't gotten to drive the GTO. Hopefully we can make a real-world determination soon. I think the closer comparison is going to be the RX8 vs. this car. Still very different, but the pricing and purpose are closer.

    On a side note, personally, I'm hoping the mazda3 will be even more fun than the 6.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    qbrozen... I said "relatively" re: the Tiburon V6 6-speed. According to Edmunds data for the MY2004 Tiburon V6 6-speed, it comes standard with P215/45R17 tires. Compare the weight and power differences. Hyundai smartly chose to shod her with great Michelin Pilot Sport tires. Expensive but worth it.

    Anyone know what brand and model of tire is standard with GTO?
  • I don't think anyone knows for sure yet. In the brochures and on the Pontiac site, they are Goodyear Eagles RSAs. GM and Pontiac always seem to use the Goodyear Eagles. My 98 Grand Prix GTP came with the same tires.
  • ruskiruski Posts: 1,566
    sounds like you inhaled too much gas when you grew up near that gas station.
  • ezraponezrapon Posts: 348
    I just stumbled over here from the bonneville board, you guys are really rough on each other here. Especially concerning a car that no one has ever seen or driven. Went to the PMD dealer got the brochure and thought about laying down a deposit. Can't commit to something that I have not even sat in. I'm 6'3" and could see some ugly problems. I drive a 2000 ssei. I know it inside out (side air bags and all). I think I'll wait untill the new GXP and GTO are side by side in the show room...I'm leaning to the GXP, too bad it's not rear wheel with the Ls6, perhaps it would have been the perfect car. The real GTO. Speaking of heritage, compare the bonneville line up with the old gto blood line Tempest/se...Lemans/sle...gto/ssei, it's uncanny if you remeber the old tempest line up.
  • Well, I'm not into the macho car thing anymore. I lift weights every day blah, blah blah, but I find it much more fun to have a sleeper. Vettes or Mustangs are supposed to be fast. The guy in the Mustang I smoked in my Forester the other day had a priceless look on his face. Being beaten by car that looks like something a soccer mom would drive? It doesn't get any better than that! I wouldn't say that the EVO, WRX and Neons are cute, I'd say they are boy racer which is even worse. I bet 90% of the EVO's out there are sold to rich kids who live in their parents basement. When the SRT came out, I even went to the dealer to see if I could swap out the spoiler, hood and grill so it would look like a regular Neon (a plain jane $20K Neon that does the quarter in 14 can deal out much more humiliation than a Porsche- which are supposed to be fast). The thing that attracted me to the new GTO was the fact that its styling is more adult. It's a car a grown man can drive to work and not be embarrassed (unlike the EVO etc.) Unfortunate that the price is, in my opinion, excessive.
  • garnesgarnes Posts: 950
    These power curves of the LS1 and LS6 are pretty interesting. And the GTO will have a power curve that substantially beats the 2000 and 2001 LS1 curves shown here. Very cool. Looking at power curves also underscores the importance of the total amount of power delivered through acceleration and how insignificant peak numbers can be as well.

    All this power does make you have to question the tires though.
  • garnesgarnes Posts: 950
    Here are the graphs of the LS6 2002 vs 2001. Again - very interesting. I hope to see this offered someday in the GTO.

    I like how GM got the latest LS6 to produce more power from about 3000 rpm without sacrificing any part of the power curve.
  • vcjumpervcjumper Posts: 1,110
    Will smoke a GTP and has a much nicer interior than a GTP but its kinda homely and it won't smoke a GTO unless you're in some bad weather.
  • ruskiruski Posts: 1,566
    but you have to shift your own gears in the Forester in order to smoke someone.
  • vcjumpervcjumper Posts: 1,110
    Thats a good thing!
  • This thread just keeps getting funnier and funnier. What about the PT Cruiser, or maybe the VW Beetle, no... a Hummer. Now there's a car in direct competion with the GTO. Hey, I smoked a V6 Mustang with an 97 GMC Sierra. Does that count?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,735
    if i'm not mistaken, gm is using the same basic engine in the corvette, gto, and new cadillac vert. they don't want the gto to overshadow them, if it could.
    as far as the subaru comment goes, the turbo forrester is supposed to do 0-60 in around 5.5 seconds. that's pretty fast. doesn't make me want to drive one, though.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • When I was 22, I bought a 1991 Formula (305). This GTO sounds like it will blow my doors off, and sound meaner than anything else I am looking at. So since i am in the market for a new sedan/coupe, it deserves consideration. The 3 series was ok, G35 sounded too high pitch, audi, vw take em or leave em. I am waiting to see and drive for myself.
This discussion has been closed.