I won't say they won't make it, even though I doubt it very highly, but I will say that if they do it, a lot of those sales will have come at the expense of the ES and, to a lesser extent, the GS.
Nobody in here will say it's not a good car. A few will insist it's not what we were promised three years ago...
If there is ZERO correlation between a product's attributes and its relative sales to competitors, why would any company make any effort to make better products?
Anyways, you're right, this topic is too general for this forum.
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To get back on topic, Lexus is going to do a major marketing push for the IS on Oct. 17th, buying up some key primetime 30 second commercial slots.
Makes me think that the official launch date is October 18th.
I went to the Open twice. I saw the IS 350. Colors make a huge difference on this car. They had a Burgandy-ish with Black Interior IS 350 that I didn't much care for. The Black Interior was really nice, but the Burgundy-ish exterior color does nothing for the car---IMO. There was a Sparkling Dark Grey/Beige Leather IS 350 that really caught my eye. The Sparliking Grey exterior really make the car look great.
I still don't understand Lexus' mindset with the models of the new IS. They want to compete in the marketplace and the bottom line is that they have to sell cars. Now granted Lexus is a smart company and I'm just some jerk that sells plumbing supplies in the Bronx, but why limit yourself to IS250 RWD Stick, IS250 RWD Auto, IS250 AWD Auto, & IS350 RWD Auto?
I know that we enthusiasts here are in the minority of the car buying world and that people in this country don't drive stick (this still baffles me), but why not offer an IS350 RWD with a stick? No it won't be the top seller, but if it adds and extra maybe 2K-3K units to your bottom line then why not? They might be pleasantly suprised. I believe Mazda sold out of all Mazda6 V6 Stick shifts the first year of production (I know they're totally different cars).
Offer an IS 350 AWD. People in the NYC metro (and most places I know in the Northeast) area are AWD CRAZY. Everybody feels they have to have it! A majority of the E46 3ers I see on the road are xi models. The same holds true for 4Matic C & E Class Mercedes' & Infinity G35x. The only time I've ever seen an Audi w/o Quattro is when they have plates from the south. They could easily seel a few thousand AWD IS 350's.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
What sets Lexus apart from their competitors is their exceptional service. I’ve owned a BMW and Mercedes. None can come close or surpass how Lexus treats their customers. It has immeasurable value to high-end base customers.
You mean jrock. Ii don't see a connection between sales and quality. And I'd agree...bmw's are atrociously built.
Someone mentioned service as a big deal. Why? I get lousy service. I have had nothing but bad service from Mazda, BMW, VW, Nissan. Doesn't change the fact I prefer Mazda and BMW to all other makes. Service plays zero role in my car buying decision.
This is from someone whose car has been in the shop 6 times in the past 5 months (sometimes for multiple days)!
The Lexus will win me as a customer based on how the car drives and how it's priced.
In such a short lease, the poor reliability of the A4 should not be an issue. The only thing to consider is the price and the car (performance will be about the same). The price is likely to be lower on the A4 so it comes down to the car. What are the chances that the IS250 will be worth the extra cost in subjective areas such as the interior and exteriror? Only you can answer that.
They may still offer a stick on the IS350 in the future. Also, notice how you can only get the 3.2 liter Audi A4 and next year the 3.2 A3 only with the automatic gearbox. Also, out of all midsize luxury cars such as the Infiniti M, Lexus GS, Audi A6, BMW 5, and Cadillac STS, only the BMW offers a manual tranny. I dont think a single full-size luxury car offers a manual.
It seems to me that car makers have decided that here in the USA, a manual is only for enthusiasts who are very few, and for people that cant afford and automatic and are forced to drive a manual. Besides, I a pretty sure that most people who will buy an IS350 will not be enthusiasts, but people who can afford the extra power and could care less about the manual.
Also, notice how you can only get the 3.2 liter Audi A4 and next year the 3.2 A3 only with the automatic gearbox.
A3 3.2 is a DSG gearbox, not an automatic. big difference.
Also, out of all midsize luxury cars such as the Infiniti M, Lexus GS, Audi A6, BMW 5, and Cadillac STS, only the BMW offers a manual tranny. I dont think a single full-size luxury car offers a manual.
What's your point? The IS350 is entry lux not land barge lux.
It seems to me that car makers have decided that here in the USA, a manual is only for enthusiasts who are very few, and for people that cant afford and automatic and are forced to drive a manual.
I love how people try to act like it's somehow a price thing. "Only poor people drive manuals." Manual drivers can flip that and say only lazy people drive automatics. Or people who like to spend extra money and then spend insane money on repairs. A busted automatic is a good 4k+ repair now.
Besides, I a pretty sure that most people who will buy an IS350 will not be enthusiasts, but people who can afford the extra power and could care less about the manual.
The IS350 would have been at the top of my list for 06. Lexus made sure it wasn't. Shrug...I know i'm not alone. Still don't get how a desire for a manual hurts the slushbox people. The lack of a manual does hurt the enthusiasts though. One side has a reason to gripe. The other seems to defend an odd corporate decision as if they have a vested interest in protecting a multibillion dollar company.
I was just trying to give my opinion as for why Lexus does not offer a manual in the IS350, not to insult or to start and argument. I have nothing against the manual and I prefer a manual over an automatic.
DSG shifts gears instead of the person, which makes it an automatic transmission.
My point is that for some reason auto makers dont wanna make expensive cars with a manual tranny.
I love how people try to act like it's somehow a price thing. "Only poor people drive manuals." Manual drivers can flip that and say only lazy people drive automatics. Or people who like to spend extra money and then spend insane money on repairs. A busted automatic is a good 4k+ repair now.
I know its not fair, but that is how the majority of people think and most auto makers cater to the majority.
Yes, sometimes we just cant figure out why auto makers make the decisions they do. I still dont really know and can only speculate as to why the IS350 does not get AWD or a manual tranny; let us hope it gets either one or both in the future.
"DSG shifts gears instead of the person, which makes it an automatic transmission. "
There is no torque converter hence it is not an automatic transmission. You could say it's an automatic manual. Even so, with a DSG/SSG/SMG or whathaveyounomenclature, you can still use the paddle shift to shift gears yourself. It is not the same as a steptronic/tiptronic tranny.
The argument that a lack of manual hurts enthusiasts is correct, but the latter are few and far between, and rapidly disappearing in numbers. Then their are the pseudo manual trannies... DSG, SMG, etc. Anytime you have a clutchless tranny, it is an automatic. Call it/name it anything, it is NOT a manual tranny. A stick shift is just that, depress the clutch, shift the gears and off you go. Not depress the brake pedal, engage the gear to D and off you go. No ?
Notice how in the C&D review, the IS350/6A bested every single manual tranny car in the review ? The slush box didn't seem to have an effect on the car's ability to speed past its competitors. And it simply cannot be about HP cos the G35 had a 298HP which is only 8HP less than the IS350, so HP cannot just be the sole reason all these cars could not match the IS350.
Ultimately, the true stick-shift trannies are going to disappear sooner or later. True enthusiasts will have a finite choice available to them to buy if they insist on driving a stick shift, otherwise they convert to driving these pseudo manual tranny cars.
DSG shifts gears instead of the person, which makes it an automatic transmission.
Then an smg is an automatic too? automatics have torque converters.
Yes, sometimes we just cant figure out why auto makers make the decisions they do. I still dont really know and can only speculate as to why the IS350 does not get AWD or a manual tranny; let us hope it gets either one or both in the future.
"Jeffy Lube, Midas for Brake, etc." - LOL. If I spend my $ on a "luxury" car (we are in the Lexus forum aren't we?), I don't want anyone toying with my car. Sorry. If someone can afford to buy a luxury car, they certainly can afford to pay of the maintenance.
"Please do" separate the two. Same standards...not quite. Nice try.
Going back to the topic, I'm afraid the pre-collision and vehicle stability features, would impede the true performance of the IS350. Hmm...
Hello all, thought I'd join in on the discussion of price here ....went to the local Lexus dealer, who claims to be "taking orders" on the IS series ... so I inquired if pricing is available. The official answer is 'no' except that the salesman offered his guess that the IS250 will start at $34K, and the IS350 will hover around $42K. He was more than willing to take my deposit, though. From what I read, the IS should start around $30K, but Lexus is still working the pricing ... probably complete by now, but keep in mind, they need to take into account BMW pricing ... after all, if Lexus wants to attact the 325 / 330i crowd, then price is a strategic decision, will they be willing to offer aggressive pricing to sell more units...we will see, soon. Also, would not be surprised if the IS goes out the door for full sticker price ... after all demand is high, there's already a waiting list, so it might not be a bad idea to wait to January - March '06 for a sweeter deal. Will report back when more info is available.
These are the 0-60 and 0-100 for IS350 from the mags
C&D: 5.1 & 12.8 R&T: 6.0 & 14.9
There are statistical variations, and there ocean-wide gaps. Lexus must not believe in any kind of tolerances anymore, tight or loose.
BTW, G35, a car very close to IS350 in power and weight reports 5.9 and 15.0. So I'm pretty sure R&T's are correct. G35 and a REAL IS350 probably are indistinguishable in times.
I think the numbers in MT (5.5 in 0-60) are also bogus. That'd make it as fast as M45 and 545, the fastest cars in the segment above it. If Lexus has superior technology, why didn't it show in the GS tests and comparos? 5.1, isn't that encrouching into M5 and AMG territory?
Take a look at the photos in C&D and MT, both has pictures of dark blue IS. Probably the same car with a superchip in it. R&T didn't get the memo and went ahead and tested a metallic grey IS.
So who's responsible? C&D and MT tested the car and posted the numbers, and certainly red flags should've been raised. But who supplied them with the car? I wonder!
yes they are large gaps. But, between the two tests, what was the ambient temp, barometric pressure, pavement condition, type and surface, tire temp and wear, miles on the car and state of engine break in, computer tuning and was one prototype and one production, driver skill, timing devices used, launch technique, etc.
You get my point. Hard to compare just two sources, we need a lot more data and real world experience before we can say how fast this car is.
Regarding the G35, why don't you think the IS350 would be faster? After all this is a 6 speed auto packing 306 HP and a state-of-the-art (direct and port injected) engine. Plus note the fat 255 rear tires, the G35 are more narrow, no? 215's on the regular and still only 235's on the sport pack. Traction differences could come into play.
Of couse the IS350 could be as fast, or faster, than an M45. 335 hp and 4k+ pounds vs. 306 hp and 3500 pounds. Plus more gear ratios in the IS (6) vs. the M's 5sp auto. And again, the top tire is still more narrow than the IS (245 vs. 255). More power, smaller tire, and you say still the Lexus can't be that fast?
"But, between the two tests, what was the ambient temp, barometric pressure, pavement condition, type and surface, tire temp and wear, miles on the car and state of engine break "
Yes, these differences exist, that's why we have statistical variations. But, come on, from 5.1 to 6.0 is much more than that. 5.1 requires what, 450-500 hp? It takes much more than tires for IS350 to do 5.1!
GS430, with more torque and all the technology of IS350, can only do 5.7. Remember, GS is essentially the same car as IS. Check out their respective weights, GS300 hardly weighs anymore than IS350. In contrast, M35 outweighs G35 by about 350 lbs. This shows that GS is much closer to IS than M is to G. And yet none of the GS iterations shows any astounding accelerations, much out of the norm of the competition. In fact, I've read just the opposite about GS.
"Regarding the G35, why don't you think the IS350 would be faster?"
Well, for several reasons, M and G share same platform, so do GS and IS. And most objective publications have weighed in and judged M to be the superior sports sedan and platform. IS350 has about 10 hp on G35 and weighs more, so there's no way IS is vastly faster than G.
The only reliable numbers are from R&T, which say IS numbers are very comparable to G.
Know what this most reminds me of? The Seoul Olympics 100 m dash. The world record at that time was 9.87, if I remember correctly. It was lowered a hundredth of a second every five years or so. Ben Johnson took off .09 to lower it to 9.78. People were astounded. It turned out too good to be true!
Well, I'm sure none of the production IS can come close to 5.5. Remember, C&D and MT had a preproduction car.
...the 2006 IS 350 conforms to SAE HP ratings of 306, the 298 HP G MT (as well as all Infiniti models) is not rated to SAE standards, thus has a far lower horsepower rating closer to 275 HP, making a difference roughly of 31 HP. A 320 HP (non-SAE rating... so closer to 300-310 by SAE standards) can reach 4.6-5.2ish 0-60 mph times, so I don't see how !!!450-500!!! hp is necessary for 5.1 second times?!? Now, maybe the engine of the IS 350 was not affected by the extreme temperatures and did not require a figurative adjustment by C&D so its time was maybe closer to 5.5 seconds, but wait, the car must not be able to achieve that.
Now, to beg the question: Why would a company "rig" a car for "one" test and then leave the rest of the vehicles, which due to debugging the pre-preduction vehicles, worse off when their reputation lies more so on the production than pre-production vehicles... if that made sense.
mariner7, you are admitting that Lexus is capable of making a 5.1 second IS350! Why the hell wouldn't they make the production 350 a 5.1 second car and the pre-production car a 5.1 second car. Why also not make all the pre-production cars 5.1 second cars? Your argument is lost here, someone it seems is in denial.
Why is it so hard to believe that the G35 is not the fastest car in the class? Give it a rest; you might feel better. I can't guarantee it though.
"A 320 HP (non-SAE rating... so closer to 300-310 by SAE standards) can reach 4.6-5.2ish 0-60 mph times, so I don't see how !!!450-500!!! hp is necessary for 5.1 second times?!?"...should be...
A 320 HP (non-SAE rating... so closer to 300-310 by SAE standards) Toyota Supra can reach 4.6-5.2ish 0-60 mph times, so I don't see how !!!450-500!!! hp is necessary for 5.1 second times?!? <----- Also, that is a 13 year old car.
Here is the reason why Lexus does not offer AWD or a manual tranny on the IS350 accoring to IS Chief Engineer, Suguya Fukusato:
The IS 250 is our core model, representing over 80 percent of sales. With this volume, we believe the IS 250 with manual transmission (M/T) will meet the needs for those consumers desiring a 6-speed manual and provides a very competitive value. The volume of M/T sales within the segment the IS 350 will compete is very small, and we do not forecast enough demand to warrant production of a M/T choice for the IS 350. If the market should change, we will, of course, consider a M/T for the IS 350.
There’s no doubt AWD contributes to improved driving security--especially in inclement weather, and the IS 250 AWD is designed to meet the higher sales volume we expect from prospective consumers. The IS 350 is a lower volume vehicle and our research indicates the majority of buyers looking for high-performance luxury sport sedans want rear-wheel drive.
Aren't chief engineers also given certain parameters to work under? I mean, even if you are chief engineer, you aren't given complete free reign... c'mon guys.
He may be given parameters to work under but there's a big difference between doing as the man wants AND backing up the decisions or doing as the man wants and then expressing that you personally hope something shows up.
I have no use for corporate sycophants. I read interviews with Ford, GM, Chrysler, BMW employees who repeat the company line and wonder if these people go home feeling like the dirty PR whores they are.
While on the topic of PR whores, isn't the very concept of "sport-sedan" an oxymoron invented by the marketing whores? "pseudo-luxury" is one giglo of a PR term. So what does that make "pseudo-luxury sport-sedan"?
"And when they're feeling sufficiently incomplete, you convince them your product is the only thing that can fill the void. So instead of taking steps to deal with their lives, instead of working to root out the real reason for their misery, they go out and buy a stupid looking pair of cargo pants. " - Dylan Kidd, "Roger Dodger" 2002
I don't buy cargo pants. I buy silly luxury sport sedans like the IS350.
From 5.1 to 6.0, both recorded for IS350, is a difference of .9.
M45 and 545 do a 5.5, so are you saying they're capable of doing a 4.6? That's two totally different classes of cars.
12.9 and 14.9 were both recorded 0-100 for IS350. Come on, a difference of more than 2 seconds! That's ridiculous. One of them has got to be wrong!
GS430 does 5.7. It has about the same hp, much more torque, all the technology of IS350, doesn't weigh much more, has 2 more cylinders. Why doesn't it do a 5.1 or 4.9? It can't! In fact, all the records show it's considerably slower than M45 and 545. Yet its almost sibling, which all indications should be slower, is out of this world much faster!
I honestly and really don't want to get into this but the IS350 (and the IS250, too, for that matter) and the GS-series do not use the same engine technology. The IS-series automobiles use a high-compression, direct-injection engine -- the IS350 using both direct-injection and port injection -- that is considerably more advanced than either the six-cylinder or the eight-cylinder engines used with the Lexus GS-series.
As for the 0-60 times, it is very possible for that much of a spread among different magazines. They are taken at different times, using different drivers under different circumstances. Nothing unusual about that.
And if you want to argue that the Road and Track time of 6.0 seconds is "gospel," then please remember that according to them, the new BMW 330i does it in "only" 6.2 seconds. Still slower than the IS.
GS430 does 5.7. It has about the same hp, much more torque, all the technology of IS350, doesn't weigh much more, has 2 more cylinders. Why doesn't it do a 5.1 or 4.9? It can't! In fact, all the records show it's considerably slower than M45 and 545. Yet its almost sibling, which all indications should be slower, is out of this world much faster!
Why are you having such a hard time admitting the IS350 is fast? Yes the GS430 has similar power, but again remember it is heavier and even it has less tire in the rear (245 vs. 255 IS w/18's) Also, I recall reading the IS has a switch to turn off Traction control to allow some wheelspin at the start and allows the motor to get into its power peak sooner. The GS does not have this switch. It is likely the GS430 traction control is holding it back a little of the line. Both are fast, but the IS is faster even according to Lexus itself.
Just admit it, the IS350 is fast. Personally I don't care if it can beat "X" car by .0002 seconds, I just want it to feel powerful enough for my needs and to drive nicely. The fact that I can blow the doors off the stuck-up yuppie in his shiny 330 is simply an added bonus.
Hey, it's all ok. I'll still buy you a nice latte to help alleviate your sadness at being hoodwinked by the german "image"
Totally agreed. BTW the GS 430 only has SAE 278 HP. The IS 350 has SAE 306 HP compared to G35 SAE ~260 HP AT/ 275 HP MT... doesn't it seem that logically the 350 would be faster? I mean, it has ~46 more horsepower than the G35 AT.
mariner7, please... give it up. First you say that C&D was given a ringer, and then you say that the number was rigged or something... sigh... it sucks being wrong.
As far as I go, I have nothing more to say on this topic. See you at the stoplights... and after that, in my rearview. :P
There's more to a car than straightline performance. Handling is key component and in that area the IS350 is more Audi A4 than G35/3 series.
Reminds me of a story I read from a guy driving a lowly "girlie car" miata. He said some jerk in a newer SL was riding his bumper all through the city near Santa Cruz. Then they hit the ole highways out there that wrap around the mountains. Well the SL blew by the Miata driver...until the twisties. Then the Miata stuck to the SL's bumper. On straights the SL would pull away and on tight corners the Miata would be right there on the SL.
ANy idea whats the slalom times for the IS350, G35 and 3 series? How did you come up with the idea that those 2 are faster in the twisty roads than the IS?
The Handling difference between the Audi A4 and a G35/3-series, is so small that no one but critics for automobile magazines can find, otherwise they would be out of a job. Personally I love the heavy suspension and the cozy feeling the A4 gives me; and if the IS350 feels more like an A4, as you say it does, I cant wait to test drive it.
Lots of reviews so far mention the IS is a fast, fun, comfortable road going machine that's not quite up to BMW levels of roadholding.
If you check the Karl Brauer stuff on the forums you'll see even he mentioned the G and 3 have nothing to worry about from the IS350. It's not gonna steal customers who value handling over accleration. his words, not mine. I've posted a link in here before.
To each his own. the a4 feels sloppy to me as it's got way too much undetsteer dialed into the car. But I'm more of a get the rear coming around in corners and use throttle to continue the turn kinda guy.
why would you pay 42k+ for an is350 when you can prolly get an m45 for 46k, if you're wanting luxury i would pay the extra and get the m45..... i'm not a die hard infiniti fan either. i come from a toyota and lexus family!
I agree as well. if the price is going to be anywhere in the 42k+ I'll get a M without a doubt. I come from a Toyota/Lexus family as well, but if I see the price is going to be that high its not worth it.
This isnt subjective characteristic of a car so I'm holding my conclusion until I see slalom time results from the 3 cars mentioned. I'm not one of those "It felt like" kind of guy.
"The thrust of the engine itself was somehow muted, even as it pulled a 6.1-second 0-to-60 time (Lexus claims 5.6 seconds is possible, but this was the best we could get from our preproduction test unit)."
Sorry, did I say IS350 is as fast as G35, which does 5.8-5.9? 5.6 is way too optimistic there, Lexus! They must've using the dark blue preproduction unit they gave to C&D!
"Keep in mind that this car is basically a shortened GS, as both models use the same platform and the same type of double-wishbone front suspension and multilink rear suspension"
Thus confirming what I said about GS and IS are very similar. If you couldn't get 5.1 or anything close (are you kidding me) from GS, how the heck can you get it out of IS?
I know bogus when I see it. If anyone publishes similar stuff about G35, I'd be among the first ones to question it. Final quote:
"But as capable and solid as the car feels when tearing along Angeles Crest Highway, I'm left with an undeniable impression — I'd rather be driving a BMW 3 Series."
Isn't that what all the magazines and reviewers can agree about?
So does anyone still want to argue IS350 can do 12.38 sec 0-100mph, while G35 can only do 15.0?
Comments
sales numbers do not reflect the quality in any measure.
Nobody in here will say it's not a good car. A few will insist it's not what we were promised three years ago...
I disagree. Relative sales numbers to other competitors in its class do indicate some measure of quality.
Not a perfect, or even a good indicator, but there is a general correlation nonetheless.
In general, good products sell well, bad products don't.
There is a reason why Ford and GM sales are falling while Asian brand sales are going up.
The way I would put it is that sales numbers reflect how well a product meets consumers' needs.
I couldn't disagree more. We should just leave it at we will not see eye to eye on that.
Anyways, you're right, this topic is too general for this forum.
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To get back on topic, Lexus is going to do a major marketing push for the IS on Oct. 17th, buying up some key primetime 30 second commercial slots.
Makes me think that the official launch date is October 18th.
I still don't understand Lexus' mindset with the models of the new IS. They want to compete in the marketplace and the bottom line is that they have to sell cars. Now granted Lexus is a smart company and I'm just some jerk that sells plumbing supplies in the Bronx, but why limit yourself to IS250 RWD Stick, IS250 RWD Auto, IS250 AWD Auto, & IS350 RWD Auto?
I know that we enthusiasts here are in the minority of the car buying world and that people in this country don't drive stick (this still baffles me), but why not offer an IS350 RWD with a stick? No it won't be the top seller, but if it adds and extra maybe 2K-3K units to your bottom line then why not? They might be pleasantly suprised. I believe Mazda sold out of all Mazda6 V6 Stick shifts the first year of production (I know they're totally different cars).
Offer an IS 350 AWD. People in the NYC metro (and most places I know in the Northeast) area are AWD CRAZY. Everybody feels they have to have it! A majority of the E46 3ers I see on the road are xi models. The same holds true for 4Matic C & E Class Mercedes' & Infinity G35x. The only time I've ever seen an Audi w/o Quattro is when they have plates from the south. They could easily seel a few thousand AWD IS 350's.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
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Someone mentioned service as a big deal. Why? I get lousy service. I have had nothing but bad service from Mazda, BMW, VW, Nissan. Doesn't change the fact I prefer Mazda and BMW to all other makes. Service plays zero role in my car buying decision.
This is from someone whose car has been in the shop 6 times in the past 5 months (sometimes for multiple days)!
The Lexus will win me as a customer based on how the car drives and how it's priced.
I'm not talking about a specific car.
Of course, there are many exceptions, but there is a GENERAL correlation between sales and product attributes.
It seems to me that car makers have decided that here in the USA, a manual is only for enthusiasts who are very few, and for people that cant afford and automatic and are forced to drive a manual. Besides, I a pretty sure that most people who will buy an IS350 will not be enthusiasts, but people who can afford the extra power and could care less about the manual.
Also, notice how you can only get the 3.2 liter Audi A4 and next year the 3.2 A3 only with the automatic gearbox.
A3 3.2 is a DSG gearbox, not an automatic. big difference.
Also, out of all midsize luxury cars such as the Infiniti M, Lexus GS, Audi A6, BMW 5, and Cadillac STS, only the BMW offers a manual tranny. I dont think a single full-size luxury car offers a manual.
What's your point? The IS350 is entry lux not land barge lux.
It seems to me that car makers have decided that here in the USA, a manual is only for enthusiasts who are very few, and for people that cant afford and automatic and are forced to drive a manual.
I love how people try to act like it's somehow a price thing. "Only poor people drive manuals." Manual drivers can flip that and say only lazy people drive automatics. Or people who like to spend extra money and then spend insane money on repairs. A busted automatic is a good 4k+ repair now.
Besides, I a pretty sure that most people who will buy an IS350 will not be enthusiasts, but people who can afford the extra power and could care less about the manual.
The IS350 would have been at the top of my list for 06. Lexus made sure it wasn't. Shrug...I know i'm not alone. Still don't get how a desire for a manual hurts the slushbox people. The lack of a manual does hurt the enthusiasts though. One side has a reason to gripe. The other seems to defend an odd corporate decision as if they have a vested interest in protecting a multibillion dollar company.
DSG shifts gears instead of the person, which makes it an automatic transmission.
My point is that for some reason auto makers dont wanna make expensive cars with a manual tranny.
I love how people try to act like it's somehow a price thing. "Only poor people drive manuals." Manual drivers can flip that and say only lazy people drive automatics. Or people who like to spend extra money and then spend insane money on repairs. A busted automatic is a good 4k+ repair now.
I know its not fair, but that is how the majority of people think and most auto makers cater to the majority.
Yes, sometimes we just cant figure out why auto makers make the decisions they do. I still dont really know and can only speculate as to why the IS350 does not get AWD or a manual tranny; let us hope it gets either one or both in the future.
There is no torque converter hence it is not an automatic transmission. You could say it's an automatic manual. Even so, with a DSG/SSG/SMG or whathaveyounomenclature, you can still use the paddle shift to shift gears yourself. It is not the same as a steptronic/tiptronic tranny.
Notice how in the C&D review, the IS350/6A bested every single manual tranny car in the review ? The slush box didn't seem to have an effect on the car's ability to speed past its competitors. And it simply cannot be about HP cos the G35 had a 298HP which is only 8HP less than the IS350, so HP cannot just be the sole reason all these cars could not match the IS350.
Ultimately, the true stick-shift trannies are going to disappear sooner or later. True enthusiasts will have a finite choice available to them to buy if they insist on driving a stick shift, otherwise they convert to driving these pseudo manual tranny cars.
Then an smg is an automatic too? automatics have torque converters.
Yes, sometimes we just cant figure out why auto makers make the decisions they do. I still dont really know and can only speculate as to why the IS350 does not get AWD or a manual tranny; let us hope it gets either one or both in the future.
Agreed!
Really. Where do you go?
What I meant by Lexus (not Toyota, pls. separate the two) impeccable service is the time you buy the car and maintaining the car.
Sticking to the topic - I defer my opinion once I test drive these cars. Can't wait. This could be my "fun" car to have.
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Can please, do not seperate the two. They are design by same people with same standard - The Toyota Standard.
you are wasting your $ if the only place you go to is Lexus dealership.
"Please do" separate the two. Same standards...not quite. Nice try.
Going back to the topic, I'm afraid the pre-collision and vehicle stability features, would impede the true performance of the IS350. Hmm...
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C&D: 5.1 & 12.8
R&T: 6.0 & 14.9
There are statistical variations, and there ocean-wide gaps. Lexus must not believe in any kind of tolerances anymore, tight or loose.
BTW, G35, a car very close to IS350 in power and weight reports 5.9 and 15.0. So I'm pretty sure R&T's are correct. G35 and a REAL IS350 probably are indistinguishable in times.
I think the numbers in MT (5.5 in 0-60) are also bogus. That'd make it as fast as M45 and 545, the fastest cars in the segment above it. If Lexus has superior technology, why didn't it show in the GS tests and comparos? 5.1, isn't that encrouching into M5 and AMG territory?
Take a look at the photos in C&D and MT, both has pictures of dark blue IS. Probably the same car with a superchip in it. R&T didn't get the memo and went ahead and tested a metallic grey IS.
So who's responsible? C&D and MT tested the car and posted the numbers, and certainly red flags should've been raised. But who supplied them with the car? I wonder!
You get my point. Hard to compare just two sources, we need a lot more data and real world experience before we can say how fast this car is.
Regarding the G35, why don't you think the IS350 would be faster? After all this is a 6 speed auto packing 306 HP and a state-of-the-art (direct and port injected) engine. Plus note the fat 255 rear tires, the G35 are more narrow, no? 215's on the regular and still only 235's on the sport pack. Traction differences could come into play.
Of couse the IS350 could be as fast, or faster, than an M45. 335 hp and 4k+ pounds vs. 306 hp and 3500 pounds. Plus more gear ratios in the IS (6) vs. the M's 5sp auto. And again, the top tire is still more narrow than the IS (245 vs. 255). More power, smaller tire, and you say still the Lexus can't be that fast?
Yes, these differences exist, that's why we have statistical variations. But, come on, from 5.1 to 6.0 is much more than that. 5.1 requires what, 450-500 hp? It takes much more than tires for IS350 to do 5.1!
GS430, with more torque and all the technology of IS350, can only do 5.7. Remember, GS is essentially the same car as IS. Check out their respective weights, GS300 hardly weighs anymore than IS350. In contrast, M35 outweighs G35 by about 350 lbs. This shows that GS is much closer to IS than M is to G. And yet none of the GS iterations shows any astounding accelerations, much out of the norm of the competition. In fact, I've read just the opposite about GS.
"Regarding the G35, why don't you think the IS350 would be faster?"
Well, for several reasons, M and G share same platform, so do GS and IS. And most objective publications have weighed in and judged M to be the superior sports sedan and platform. IS350 has about 10 hp on G35 and weighs more, so there's no way IS is vastly faster than G.
The only reliable numbers are from R&T, which say IS numbers are very comparable to G.
Know what this most reminds me of? The Seoul Olympics 100 m dash. The world record at that time was 9.87, if I remember correctly. It was lowered a hundredth of a second every five years or so. Ben Johnson took off .09 to lower it to 9.78. People were astounded. It turned out too good to be true!
Well, I'm sure none of the production IS can come close to 5.5. Remember, C&D and MT had a preproduction car.
Now, to beg the question: Why would a company "rig" a car for "one" test and then leave the rest of the vehicles, which due to debugging the pre-preduction vehicles, worse off when their reputation lies more so on the production than pre-production vehicles... if that made sense.
mariner7, you are admitting that Lexus is capable of making a 5.1 second IS350! Why the hell wouldn't they make the production 350 a 5.1 second car and the pre-production car a 5.1 second car. Why also not make all the pre-production cars 5.1 second cars? Your argument is lost here, someone it seems is in denial.
Why is it so hard to believe that the G35 is not the fastest car in the class? Give it a rest; you might feel better. I can't guarantee it though.
A 320 HP (non-SAE rating... so closer to 300-310 by SAE standards) Toyota Supra can reach 4.6-5.2ish 0-60 mph times, so I don't see how !!!450-500!!! hp is necessary for 5.1 second times?!? <----- Also, that is a 13 year old car.
The IS 250 is our core model, representing over 80 percent of sales. With this volume, we believe the IS 250 with manual transmission (M/T) will meet the needs for those consumers desiring a 6-speed manual and provides a very competitive value. The volume of M/T sales within the segment the IS 350 will compete is very small, and we do not forecast enough demand to warrant production of a M/T choice for the IS 350. If the market should change, we will, of course, consider a M/T for the IS 350.
There’s no doubt AWD contributes to improved driving security--especially in inclement weather, and the IS 250 AWD is designed to meet the higher sales volume we expect from prospective consumers. The IS 350 is a lower volume vehicle and our research indicates the majority of buyers looking for high-performance luxury sport sedans want rear-wheel drive.
-Chief Engineer, Suguya Fukusato
Toyota/Lexus does exactly that. Their metrics are many, but the two that seem to bubble to the top are reliability & sales/percentage of market.
I work in a company that beats us silly with the concept that a feature doesn't matter unless the customer thinks it does. This is a good thing.
I recognize that wanting to only drive manual transmission (near) luxury cars limits my choices.
The IS250 is certainly one. . .but compared to a G35 coupe. . .
CrimsonO2
I have no use for corporate sycophants. I read interviews with Ford, GM, Chrysler, BMW employees who repeat the company line and wonder if these people go home feeling like the dirty PR whores they are.
"And when they're feeling sufficiently incomplete, you convince them your product is the only thing that can fill the void. So instead of taking steps to deal with their lives, instead of working to root out the real reason for their misery, they go out and buy a stupid looking pair of cargo pants. " - Dylan Kidd, "Roger Dodger" 2002
I don't buy cargo pants. I buy silly luxury sport sedans like the IS350.
M45 and 545 do a 5.5, so are you saying they're capable of doing a 4.6? That's two totally different classes of cars.
12.9 and 14.9 were both recorded 0-100 for IS350. Come on, a difference of more than 2 seconds! That's ridiculous. One of them has got to be wrong!
GS430 does 5.7. It has about the same hp, much more torque, all the technology of IS350, doesn't weigh much more, has 2 more cylinders. Why doesn't it do a 5.1 or 4.9? It can't! In fact, all the records show it's considerably slower than M45 and 545. Yet its almost sibling, which all indications should be slower, is out of this world much faster!
As for the 0-60 times, it is very possible for that much of a spread among different magazines. They are taken at different times, using different drivers under different circumstances. Nothing unusual about that.
And if you want to argue that the Road and Track time of 6.0 seconds is "gospel," then please remember that according to them, the new BMW 330i does it in "only" 6.2 seconds. Still slower than the IS.
Why are you having such a hard time admitting the IS350 is fast? Yes the GS430 has similar power, but again remember it is heavier and even it has less tire in the rear (245 vs. 255 IS w/18's) Also, I recall reading the IS has a switch to turn off Traction control to allow some wheelspin at the start and allows the motor to get into its power peak sooner. The GS does not have this switch. It is likely the GS430 traction control is holding it back a little of the line. Both are fast, but the IS is faster even according to Lexus itself.
Just admit it, the IS350 is fast. Personally I don't care if it can beat "X" car by .0002 seconds, I just want it to feel powerful enough for my needs and to drive nicely. The fact that I can blow the doors off the stuck-up yuppie in his shiny 330 is simply an added bonus.
Hey, it's all ok. I'll still buy you a nice latte to help alleviate your sadness at being hoodwinked by the german "image"
mariner7, please... give it up. First you say that C&D was given a ringer, and then you say that the number was rigged or something... sigh... it sucks being wrong.
As far as I go, I have nothing more to say on this topic. See you at the stoplights... and after that, in my rearview. :P
Reminds me of a story I read from a guy driving a lowly "girlie car" miata. He said some jerk in a newer SL was riding his bumper all through the city near Santa Cruz. Then they hit the ole highways out there that wrap around the mountains. Well the SL blew by the Miata driver...until the twisties. Then the Miata stuck to the SL's bumper. On straights the SL would pull away and on tight corners the Miata would be right there on the SL.
If you check the Karl Brauer stuff on the forums you'll see even he mentioned the G and 3 have nothing to worry about from the IS350. It's not gonna steal customers who value handling over accleration. his words, not mine. I've posted a link in here before.
"The thrust of the engine itself was somehow muted, even as it pulled a 6.1-second 0-to-60 time (Lexus claims 5.6 seconds is possible, but this was the best we could get from our preproduction test unit)."
Sorry, did I say IS350 is as fast as G35, which does 5.8-5.9? 5.6 is way too optimistic there, Lexus! They must've using the dark blue preproduction unit they gave to C&D!
"Keep in mind that this car is basically a shortened GS, as both models use the same platform and the same type of double-wishbone front suspension and multilink rear suspension"
Thus confirming what I said about GS and IS are very similar. If you couldn't get 5.1 or anything close (are you kidding me) from GS, how the heck can you get it out of IS?
I know bogus when I see it. If anyone publishes similar stuff about G35, I'd be among the first ones to question it. Final quote:
"But as capable and solid as the car feels when tearing along Angeles Crest Highway, I'm left with an undeniable impression — I'd rather be driving a BMW 3 Series."
Isn't that what all the magazines and reviewers can agree about?
So does anyone still want to argue IS350 can do 12.38 sec 0-100mph, while G35 can only do 15.0?
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=106607/pageNumber=1