Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

crimsono2

Why bother putting rows called "Totals" then? If each of those points are subjective ratings as you say, then by that very judgement, the 330i and the IS350 should be tied at 212 with their "subjective rating" totals. So how does the 330i magically get that extra point to make it the winner?

The more I read the comparo the more I really believe no car came out the clear winner (and if there was one, I definitely wouldn't give it to the published winner). There are many different cars that meet different needs. Hell, I was blown away by the Volvo's class-leading *torque* and hp that was second only to the IS 350, but it had the heaviest weight going against it.

By all means, C&D can go ahead and declare 330i as the winner based on their subjective opinion but it shouldn't try and use the empirical "subjective rating" data to back it up because the data doesn't . Without data, it's an opinion by a magazine, and while I respect their stance, I certainly don't have to agree or bow to its results.

I've driven the e90 (albeit a 325) and the steering wheel felt like hard plastic and lackluster. I was more impressed with the hard cornering I did with the TL than the e90. In fact, this comparo just makes me chomp at the bit for the upcoming "A Taste of Lexus" event so I can get behind the wheel of an IS350 and see for myself whether Lexus can step to the plate and feel like it can play with the big boys. The data shows it can bring it...and then some.

legar

Regardless of which car you choose, the G35, TL, BMW, or Lexus, they are all great cars. They are the best cars in the near luxury class. That is why so many people disagree with which one is the best. It ultimatly comes down to ones personal taste, needs, and driving syle.

maxellman

why don't they run the car for 50,000 miles? with the 330 break down with smoke coming out of under the hood, then we will have a winner.

kdshapiro

I probably think C&D misprinted the score on one of the BMW categories, and shorted it by one.

What these totals say to me was that:

1. BMW really raised the bar to such an extent that a car with many more horses could not say the editors.
2. HP isn't everything.
3. Individual priorities dictate the ultimate choice.

"plastic and lackluster"

You opinion is probably in the minority on this one.

kdshapiro

"with the 330 break down with smoke coming out of under the hood, then we will have a winner."

That's sort of like saying hoping there is no sludge or tranny problems on the Lexus. Big untrue generalization.

mikegiller

"What these totals say to me was that:

1. BMW really raised the bar to such an extent that a car with many more horses could not say the editors.
2. HP isn't everything.
3. Individual priorities dictate the ultimate choice."

Your last point contradicts everything you said in point 1 and 2. So far all you have said is that BMW still outdoes the Lexus in the (and pay attention who I will refer to) editors eyes/point of view. Now think about it, there are so many autorags for the same reason there are so many different cars and even more opinions.

My priorities are more along the lines of what the IS 250/350 offer. I loooove luxury (don't forget the speed and handling), and I need reliability*(see footnote :P) because my job depends on transportation (no I am not a pizza delivery boy) for both frequent short trips and long highway trips. So, a BMW does not exactly have my trust there. Not only do I not respect the reliability of a 3, but the interior makes me naucious (no offence to others who like it, it is just my own opinion and you may very likely think the IS interior makes you want to puke). It just does.

*What would a comparo look like where truck A could not start, malfunctioned on a series of normal tasks, and still won? I mean, it is still a car right? Does being a luxury sport sedan that handles well exempt it from the fact that it is a car and still needs to perform all of the normal things cars do? This is clear-cut (for those unbiased) and clearly a bogus test, but hey, you can't change everyone/everything.

A magazine article should not sway anybodies opinion unless it is purely objective information. I feel sorry for the people who feel that their opinion was justified simply because "a magazine said so". I know I am gonna buy an IS because as far as I know right now it suits my priorities just fine and it is gorgeous (all in the eye of the beholder of course).

Let's all not forget too that this is the luxury sport sedan category. There is no winner. All of the cars have a mix of luxury, power, and sport-handling. It is up to the public to decide whether they want a car for the gut feeling they have about it or (God help them) they make a decision because a magazine said it was the car that the editor liked.

What can ya do?

Now, let's all get along, shall we?

kdshapiro

"Your last point contradicts everything you said in point 1 and 2. So far all you have said is that BMW still outdoes the Lexus in the (and pay attention who I will refer to) editors eyes/point of view."

That is exactly right. The editors found the BMW to be a better sports sedan in their eyes. But so what? We all have to buy what we feel comfortable with.

and I need reliability*(see footnote :P

Me too. My most reliable car waited 1 year and 2 months between service. My least reliable was at the dealers about 8 times in one year. My most reliable came from points east, my least reliable came from points west. I don't worry about reliability as it's been about 20+ since any car has stranded me. And that last car? drum-roll...Toyota.

I know I am gonna buy an IS because as far as I know right now it suits my priorities just fine and it is gorgeous (all in the eye of the beholder of course).

I agree with your line of thought exactly.

Good luck.

newcars

mariner7, I'm just curious about where you get this knowledge of yours that the IS350 was a preproduction vehicle with a modified engine with performance that no one else will be able to duplicate. Please tell us?

Because if true, it's scandolous in it's own right.

alpha01

Actually, Car and Driver changed the way they do comparison tests starting, I believe, with the Sept 2003 issue. The final tally is now the summation of the columns, you are thinking of the old way (subjective points out of 100, all categories on 1 to 10 scale). The new way assigns different weight to different line items, some of which are subjective measures and others, objective... and the total is the final outcome of the test.

Go ahead and check, they add up.

~alpha

kyfdx

They are supposed to add up... But, there is a typo in the current issue (I won't get into how anal you would have to be to add up all those columns, though.. )...

Of course, the question is: Did they add up the numbers wrong, or is one of the single component numbers a typo? I'm betting on the latter....

Either way, it is obvious that they liked the BMW more... that is pretty hard to argue with.. but, go ahead anyway...

regards,
kyfdx

bjm71678

I'm new to this thread and have seen several postings referencing a C&D article comparing the 350 to other vehicles. However, I can't seem to find this article online. Can someone post a link?

realty_pro

The new IS350 should hit 60mph in about 5.3 to 5.5 sec. The G 6mt should do it in about 5.5 to 5.6 secs. My hat goes off to the new IS350, as it is a real competitor to the G. The TL & 3 series really aren't even close. The TL is FWD and thus isn't a true sports sedan. The 3 series has great handling, but falls way short in engine performance.

kdshapiro

"The G 6mt should do it in about 5.5 to 5.6 secs."

That's what C&D got for their test of the 3. Doesn't sound like it falls way short of engine performance to me.

realty_pro

Give it a rest. The 3 series is a low 6 sec. car. In any event, I'm seeking to get input on the new IS350. I have exhausted the 3 series debate.

blueguydotcom

Then stop mentioning it or the G35.

realty_pro

Ok. The IS350 is the best of this bunch. Any questions?

JBaumgart

Hard to say until you actually drive it yourself. I have to say though that it does look awfully nice on paper (and it looks real nice too).

I wonder if in a few years they will add a hybrid option for this vehicle, emphasizing even more performance while still gaining a few extra MPG. I see where BMW has entered into a partnership with GM and Daimler Chrysler to jointly develop new hybrid technologies, and it's just a matter of time before BMW starts to add this to their line.

blueguydotcom

From reviews so far, that doesn't hold true. The final test - a physical test.

oac

This board is about the IS350/250, so this talk about BMW should disappear. The C&D review is done with. Whoever won, so be it. The IS350 is a better car than the e90, so apologists for the latter need not argue it here. Unfortunately the board to debate that has been shut down so they have come here to deride the IS. If the IS350 is that bad why do you BMW apologists even bother to debate this car ?? So the IS350 is no competition to the e90.... so what ??? Go drive your Bimmer and let those who want an IS discuss their car of choice in peace !

oac

Official EPA Fuel Economy ratings for the 2006 Lexus IS models:

IS250 RWD Automatic
24 mpg City
32 mpg Highway
27 mpg Combined

IS250 RWD Manual
20 mpg City
29 mpg Highway
23 mpg Combined

IS250 AWD Automatic
22 mpg City
28 mpg Highway
25 mpg Combined

IS350 RWD Automatic
21 mpg City
28 mpg Highway
24 mpg Combined

This compares to the 2005 IS300 figures of:

Automatic
18 mpg City
24 mpg Highway
21 mpg Combined

Manual
18 mpg City
25 mpg Highway
21 mpg Combined

source: CL

blueguydotcom

The car drops in a month, where are the official prices?!

davidnj1

Sat in it, played around. A BMW may drive better, however IMHO this is the nicest Lexus. I think the interior is better trimed than the GS. And you can get the full range of equipment including park distance sensors, adaptive radar cruise control, etc. Exterior styling is also good, with much better proportions than the GS. Seats are comfortable, although the rear is a little cramped. And the trunk, while reasonable in size, has only mailbox opening and no fold down rear seat. Price will aso be high, with equiped IS350 above $40k.

That said, this is the niced small car and one of the niced cars out there period (we drive a loaded E320 CDI, after two E39 BMWs). If you wanted a C-class, 3-series type car with the finish and equipment of an S-class or 7-Series, this is your car.

legar

Where did you get these numbers, oac?

I posted similar numbers a couple of pages back which could be found at cars.com
I believe those are Lexus estimates, not the official EPA numbers.

kdshapiro

My suggestion would be to stop talking about BMW as if this were a comparo board. Since there is quite a bit of chatter about both cars, people who are interested in both cars will naturally chime in the discussion. As in the debate about the C&D comparo.

But if one wants to talk about other vehicles in a forum, discussion about other vehicles is invited.

legar

The HOST does not seem to mind. So, I say let the debates continue.

blueguydotcom

I know firsthand not to keep directing the discussion off topic. Keep it on the IS250/350 or you may get in trouble with the local sheriffs on these boards.

viper531

will the new IS offer aluminum trim?

realty_pro

Well said. I own an 05 G35 sedan and I have no problem admitting that the 06 IS350 has bested the G, the 3 series & the TL -- albeit I ever so slightly prefer the looks of the G over the IS350. It's a close call, IMO.

The 3 series and the TL fall short of the G and certainly the IS350. Once again, my hat goes off to the IS350.

kdshapiro

There are two comparos that offer a different point of view based on the respective ranking systems. Of course, each car has their strengths and weaknesses and we always buy the car that's best for us.

billinsobe

In answer to your question:

All of the various IS versions has "some" aluminum accents. The Sports package has aluminum trim and the Luxury package has wood trim.

killerbunny

1. BMW really raised the bar to such an extent that a car with many more horses could not say the editors.
2. HP isn't everything.
3. Individual priorities dictate the ultimate choice.

1. BMW really must really suck to break down in a road test.
2. Rome is not built in one day. Lexus was born in 1990. It took Lexus 10 years to be the No.1 luxury brand in the USA. It took Lexus a second try (i.e. the 2nd gen. IS) to build a better car than the BMW 3. And it will take yet several more years to convince most people.
3. For one person, it is about his/her taste. For one car, it is about its appeal and quality.

oac

Where did you get these numbers, oac?

Someone posted on another Lexus discussion board... to which I cannot name here not to contravene the rules of this forum... But Google it and you'll find it online. These are the EPA numbers not Lexus'....

JBaumgart

Surprising that the IS350 RWD Automatic gets slightly better mileage in the city and combined than the IS250 RWD Manual.

wco81

From the same source, some "informed" speculation on prices.

Per the Lexus marketing guy I met today, pricing info to come around October 1 or so with an official release date of October 14.

His estimates for the IS versions that Lexus US are going to build were:

$44K for 350 w/ no Mark Levinson or Par Assist
$35K for 250 decently loaded (he said there will not be many released that will be less expensive than this)

He claimed that Lexus US is still in negotiations w/ Japan over pricing.

blueguydotcom

That's nuts. They're gonna release pricing on a car and release the car 2 weeks later? Strange...

billinsobe

I don't believe this for a second. You mean you honestly believe that the IS is going to be more expensive then the starting GS? NOBODY WILL BUY IT.

Sorry. I'll wait for confirmation from a reliable source.

mariner7

There's a pretty solid unanimity among CD, RT, MT (I'm not sure about Automobile) that, even though IS is the best Lexus sports sedan ever, it's still no rival to 3. This should come as no surprise, since IS shares the same platform with GS, which is a solid sedate car, but not among the two best sports sedans in its class. And we all know which are those two!

Of course, Lexus fans were hoping otherwise. This forum is about IS, and how it compares to competitors, so references to other competitors are not inappropriate.

kdshapiro

" It took Lexus 10 years to be the No.1 luxury brand in the USA."

How do you define #1? Number of units sold? Dollar value of units sold? Surveys? So-called prestige? Highest MSRP? Nobody questions that for the most part the cars are reliable (with the exception of the latest recall of 1 million Toyota units). But most people do not think of Lexus as being the #1 brand.

petl

Define most people.

Kirstie_H

The HOST does not seem to mind. So, I say let the debates continue.

Au contraire, mon ami. We have a whole board dedicated to Sedans Comparisons, and you're welcome to start up a new discussion there. We stick to sharing info & opinions about the upcoming IS in this topic. Thanks!

jrock65

Lexus released pricing of the 2006 GS on 02/04/05.

Lexus launched the 2006 GS on 02/16/05.

legar

OAC,

I used Google, but the only thing I found was Lexus estimates. The Official EPA estimates HAVE NOT been released. Lets wait until the car goes on sale to find out what the OFFIcial EPA number will be.

sunilb

If that's accurate... wow!
$35K for a 2.5L engine!?! I'm guessing most people (that don't frequent boards like this) won't know or care about the size of the engine BUT if they are cross-shopping this against the G35, TL and/or 325 (all with 3.0L+ engines) they are probably going to notice the difference.

Of course, betting against Lexus' ability to sell a car is generally a bad idea.

biker4

It seems to me that there might be some pent up demand for such alternative to the G35/TL/325 cars but even with a Lexus plate, $35K is a bit steep to swallow. Like the GS there'll probably be a wide gap between MSRP and invoice so the dealers will have a lot of latitude. While I'm sure the first few months there'll throngs of people that snatch up all available units at MSRP, when the realization sets in that an IS 250 is esentially on par with the $27K TSX (save the RWD platform) paying an 8K premium might not be worth it.

Biker, who assumes that Lexus will trumpet the IS250 starting price of 29,995 but in reality no such cars will exist. :P

quest3

anyone's opinions will be considered.. Here's my dilemma. I am currently in the military stationed in Alaska. Although I would love the 350 for its power, I'm going with the AWD model not just cause the awd factor but also cause there is literally 1 highway out here so I'd never get to really open up the car EVER, so it would be a true waste of money right now. I have already decided its definately leasing for me I cant keep a car longer than 3 yrs just cant do it. So its the awd 250 however I went by and test drove a A4quattro 2.0 and fell in love with it (also drove an A6 but the A4 was more fun to drive, to me) They have special 2 yr leasing for just about no money down for 369 a month.. I never owned/leased an Audi or Lexus. So has anyone done any research to see how they match up against each other obviously not considering the test drive. I'm starting to lean towards the A4 because I loved everything about it and it was a short lease with relatively low payment. I'm guessing Lexus won't come close to this lease term or payment when I test drive in October. Any suggestions or comments ? should I jump on the Audi

legar

PLEASE, wait until the Lexus IS hits the dealers before you start deciding which car you will choose. We know almost nothing about the Lexus except what is written in car reviews and on press releases. It is too hard to tell what kind of a car Lexus is going to release in October. As for the leasing prices, you can visit a Leasing Forum and find out if you are really getting a good deal. Please dont judge a book by its cover.

P.S- I would be happy to discuss the A4 with you in an A4 Forum.

blueguydotcom

That's just weird.

syswei

I think he meant number 1 in terms of units sold among luxury brands.

killerbunny

I think he meant number 1 in terms of units sold among luxury brands.

Exactly what I meant. As for reliability ratings, it did not take Lexus 10 years to be No.1. It was like the first year.

I am a believer in sales numbers. The old IS300 did not sell well because it's not good enough. All the magazine comparison reviews represent only a few people, while the sales numbers represent the entire population. Personally, I can only think of one way for the new IS250/350 to fail: the price is too high. As long as they are priced slightly below the BMW 3, the launch will be successful.

jrock65

Sales numbers are ONE indication of how good a car is, but is not the end all and be all.

Lots of things other than a car's merits influence sales numbers, including number of dealers, brand prestige, quality of salespersons, marketing, and pricing strategy.

I see Lexus easily attaining their 45,000 target for the IS.

Lexus targeted 33,000 for the GS. It's on pace to sell 38,000.