Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

oac

I second all that rotoryfan wrote...

The Bimmer is a "driver's car" and the IS350 is not, eh ? Geez ! People will believe anything.... 99.9999% of owners will never truly use their car to its utmost limits. Until you actually drive an IS350, please do not make a baseless claim like this.

priggly

I'd contend the people who gripe about iDrive have never used it or are too technophobic and illogical to use it. It's no more complicated than using a mouse.

Precisely the point. The i-Drive may be no more complicated than the mouse but then the mouse does not belong in a car but rather on a desk on a mousepad in a static location.

The i-Drive is a prime example of the unwanted overtechnologization of the German cars and this has, quite frankly, hurt them badly. It detracts from and lessens the "ultimate driving experience."

toyotasalesg1

The IS launches in October. Obviously it will be a "hot" car. I'm willing to pay profit, but no more than $2k MAX over invoice on a loaded IS 250. When will I be buying my new IS? June? :confuse: I live in WA State by the way and I've never purchased a Lexus before.

biker4

2K over invoice might be sticker price. :P

toyotasalesg1

Very unlikely. There was about $4-$5k markup between Invoice and MSRP on a IS300. I sincerely doubt that there will only be $2k markup in a $36k car.

kyfdx

Typically, somewhere between 8%-13% spread on imports...

That puts it somewhere between $2800-$4500...

But, I'm not sure shopping by dealer profit margin makes much sense... It might give you an idea of an acceptable deal, but if the market is MSRP, then you might pass up a great car, to end up buying an average car that the dealer makes less money on...

I'd rather the dealer make $5K on something I really want, than settle for a car I don't want, just because the dealer is willing to take a skinny deal..

regards,
kyfdx

blueguydotcom

I'd rather the dealer make $5K on something I really want, than settle for a car I don't want, just because the dealer is willing to take a skinny deal..

I'd rather hold out until I can get that 5k down to a respectable $300-500 profit.

toyotasalesg1

I'm a sales manager at a Toyota dealership and I appreciate that a dealer (and a car salesman for that matter) deserve to make a profit on any vehicle. I think $2,000 is a more than fair profit for an entry level Lexus.

307web

I know the Avalon is bigger, but suppose you can take or leave a big back seat.
With the Avalon, you get more room and power and with the IS250 you get a "real Lexus" and the luxury that goes with that and I think better styling.
The IS250 is "sportier" and designed for a younger buyer yet is lower on power.
The IS250 should get better fuel economy.
The Avalon probably has much cheaper insurance rates.

How would an IS250 with Premium Package, automatic, Nav/Mark Levinson, ventilated seats, wood trim, power rear sunshade and HIDs compare to an Avalon Limited as a commuter car?

kssod1

the IS would be perfect if they offered the AWD in the 350. The IS250 is just too slow. 0-60 in 8.3 sec is way off the TL, G35x and just about any vehicle I can think of with a 6 cyl.

proe

This term "driver's car" gets thrown around alot... would that be the professional driver on a test track or a normally-skilled typical driver on public roads? I am the latter. If the "driver's car" is the one with the .002 second faster lap time or .03 second faster 0-60 time - would the typical driver have the skills or environs to wring out the nth degree of performance? I would say no.

Unfortunately, that is how all the magazines do their head-to-head comparo. It is call instrumentation testing.
The driver's car means you and the car become one, and you can only experience that since no word can really describe it. And, it is that feeling makes Ferrari come out on top of Porsche and MB.
Lexus has decided that the computer can drive a car better than you can, so tell me how could you ever have a feeling that the car is part of you if you do not have full comtrol of the car?

So, are you implying potential IS owners do not care about "driving dynamics"?

When cars are not driven to their limits, then the driving dynamics is the same between BMW M5 and Honda Civic. Maybe Civic will have better ride than M5.

As to the "driving dynamics" - few people have actually driven the car so why not drive it before you pass judgement on "driving dynamics"?

Do not need to wait as no driving dynamics will be involved as dealership will not allow you to drive the car to its limit ever.

BTW, you seem to forgot some potential buyers will drive their new IS350 to autocross during weekends. And, they will drive IS350 to its limit and it is then 330i will show IS350 why it is still the benchmark.

proe

For commuter car, I would go with Honda Civic. It is reliable, fuel efficient, plenty of power, cheap insurance and cheap repair cost. Or I think you should buy a Acura TL, it is pretty sporty and has some luxury, yet a good commuter car.

proe

I think they will later on. BMW330X should be available soon. BTW, those AWDs are not for performance but for safety, so if you want performance RWD is still the way to go. I think only STI and EVO's AWD are for performance.

oac

Proe:

In the October MT issue (due out soon), they clocked the IS350's 0-60 at 5.5s (quarter-mile was 14.0s @ 99.8mph). The 0 - 60 time is a full second better than the e90 330i and the G35. And that is an IS350 with a slushbox tranny.... Imagine if Lexus mates that car with a 6MT, it'll do the low low 5s, maybe even a straight 5s 0-60. How many V6/auto tranny sedans can claim a 5.5s straight-line dash to 60mph ????? Despite the IS350 besting the Bimmer in many categories, MT still voted for the 330i. Arghhhhh !! I guess they couldn't imagine a Lexus beating their fav car. Pls note: this was not a comparison test... Chances are that the new IS is going to be a worthy competition to the Bimmer. Time will tell how they both fare, say a couple years from now....

kdshapiro

"Despite the IS350 besting the Bimmer in many categories, MT still voted for the 330i. Arghhhhh !!"

Get's ya aggravated don't it.

Don't worry the BMW rumor mill has a twin turbo 3.5L under development. So it should provide worth competition at the high-end to the G35 and IS350.

"The 0 - 60 time is a full second better than the e90 330i "

C&D clocked a 5.6 to 0-60.

realthor

oac, how did you get this information from the pre-release MT ? What other things did they say about the IS350 ? Please tell more !

I like the looks of the 330 sport, but the new dash of the 3-series looks horrible. And since you spend your time on the inside rather than outside, I just couldn't handle it.

realthor

Got this from another website:

The Oct issue of C&D has a $35k sports sedan comparison with 330i at #1, followed by IS350 at #2, then G35, TL, CTS, S60R and Saab. I was excited to see that although the IS trailed the bimmer by 1 point (due mostly to poor rear seat room/comfort), it was by far the fastest in all the acceleration and braking tests. How about 0-60 in 5.1 :eek2: (the next quickest were TL and G35 at 5.9), and 1/4 mile in less than 14 s at 104 mph--all this with a no-brainer auto tranny (no danger of stalling the engine or frying the clutch). Even the 5-60 rolling start clocked in at 5.3. The only area the IS did not do as well was slalom and cornering, due to the undefeatable stability control. Hopefully these numbers reflect the production run and not some pre-production anomaly.

dl7265

Hm actually insurance/repairs can be quite costly. Based on the civic/integra being the #1 stolen car year after year......

DL

timbo3

I hope (and doubt) there will not be any markups on the IS. I think Lexus cannot afford to alienate customers into a BMW. They need to get this car on the road. I think for vehicles like the RX 400h where there is no real competition, they can command a resonable markup. Don't get me wrong, I want an IS, alreay put a deposit down on one, but I would not pay ANY markup for ANY vehicle. There is already a nice profit margin built into every vehicle (MSRP - invoice = profit).

blueguydotcom

It's a buyer's market and the car is not unique or special. Markups?! That's hilarious. unique or special cars - mini for instance - have a chance at demanding a premium. That's it.

For a time the mustang GT did too - massive pent up demand for an able, sexy v8 rwd coupe. By the middle of 06 it'll be selling at below msrp too.

The IS doesn't really offer anything that's drastically different from the comp and it's in a VERY crowded niche. With the C, A4, TL, G and 3 out there, the IS can't afford to be priced with with markups.

1violinist

As far as I know Lexus has a marketing policy that doesn't allow markups. Dealers can get in trouble if they do that. But they might add a bunch of accessories and inflate the price though.

untrue

CZ

aram8

Guys guys what’s all the panic about. I live in Los Angeles, CA and we have car brokers out here (I’m sure they have them in other states, but not really sure). So what they do, but again I'm not sure how it will work with the IS 350 since it would be a new car. They purchase their cars straight from the dealer at invoice price possibly less and at the end sell it to you under MSRP because their expenses are much less than a dealer and they don’t need that much of a high of a profit. For example my gf just leased a G35 and no dealership could beat the price we got from the broker. So I was also thinking about putting down the $500 deposit for the IS 350 but after talking to the broker he advised me once the IS comes out he’ll get me one at a very good price. Most likely many of you knew car brokers, but I just thought this would be helpful to all you that are panicking about the markups.

dmk720

I`m planning to put aftermarket wheels on 2006 IS 250. Should I expect the same bolt pattern as previous IS 300?

150mphclub

No markups in the midwest. Lexus frowns on the practice, but expect initial floor plans to be loaded models, and no negotiation of the MSRP. I stopped at my dealer this week to look at a 2006 GS 300. All had thousands of $$ in options, and no price negotiation. (You can always haggle over your trade if you want to.) I have heard of some dealers negotiating 2006 GS prices, but i have not yet met a real person who has haggled the price down.

150mphclub

My family owned (past tense) a Chrysler/Mercedes dealership for 50 years. When a new model comes out, every dealer gets an allottment. There is no way we would give up any hot car to a broker when we could sell it off the floor for MSRP. That is just plain stupid. When initial sales start to slow, then we would consider a broker. When do initial sales slow? Quickly on some models, never on others. Examples: we never had an SL that did not go for full MRSP, and Chrysler 300 letter series (B thru L) almost always went for full MSRP

aram8

Well if Lexus wants to increase sales by 600% then they have to give some space for negotiating. So if I can’t get the car from a broker from the debut day then I’m sure I’ll be able to negotiate for some type a good deal at a dealership. No way in heck will I pay MSRP or even consider a markup. If there is a markup that’s really going to hurt them because there is too much competition for a dealership to consider markups.

307web

Just don't rush out to buy one of the first few that trickle in to the dealerships. If you can wait on the sidelines while production and deliveries to the dealers ramp up, and all the old IS300s are gone, you will be better off.

aram8

My problem is that I’ve been waiting for IS ever since it was debuted during New York’s auto show. I count day by day for the debut in dealerships and I’m running out of patience, I don’t know if I’ll be able to wait any longer especially when I know there is one sitting at a local dealership.

307web

If you are that excited about it and want it on Day One, then you just aren't going to get the best price. I've noticed that when new cars come out, each dealer seems to only get a few at a time in the initial shipments, so supply will be low. Plus they may still have some leftover IS300s they need to get rid of and lack of discounts on the new models are a tool to help move out the old models.
You have to decide if it is worth the price premium you will need to pay for instant gratification.
I would wait at least a few months when buying any completely new model for many reasons, not just to get a better price. I do not want to be one of the first people to bring the car in for some new issue and have the technicians scratching their heads because they've never seen that problem before. You end up bringing the car back multiple times because they don't fix it right the first time as they try trial and error. Also, replacement parts inventories are usually poor so, for warranty repairs, you may end up waiting for parts that are on back order.

kssod1

I would buy the IS350 ASAP, It is just about perfect with outstanding balance of luxury and performance. My compalint is that I live in Cleveland and my current vehicle is an X-Type. I am spoiled with the all season confidence that AWD and DSC provides. My complaint is that the AWD IS250 is too slow, not the IS350. I know snows and RWD is good but when I,ve got a 30 mile commute in a blizzard I'll take AWD and the handling of a sedan over RWD or even an SUV,( my other car is an MDX). Last year on the east side of cleveland we got almost 130" of snow

midniteblue

I have a question regarding the start button feature. Other than being a unique and very cool feature, I am wondering the degree of safety from being stolen. I would imagine that it would be harder to steal than other cars or would criminals just as easily find a way to steal it as any other car that's most likely to get stolen? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

i've been visiting this forum on a reg. basis and cannot wait like most of you for this car to come out. We had a 1996 lexus es300 and really loved it. I am ecstatic to be able to soon drive a lexus once again.

timbo3

Push button or key start makes no difference whatsoever. The key is just a mechanical rotatary switch vs. the ne pushbutton switch. Both still require the transponder to start the vehicle.

oac

There has now been two mag reviews (C&D and MT) of the IS350, and two forum reviews (is.net and CL) and no one here seems to care. Any reason why ? The new IS350 clocked 5.1s 0-60 by C&D, and 5.5s by MT. This is an insane speed for a naturally aspirated V6 with a slushbox tranny, don't ya all think ???? Imagine the IS350 with a true manual or SMG-like, would that not be a sub-5s car ? Now imagine trying to buy such a car for under $40K. Would that not be wishful thinking ? Not even a Porsche Boxter S can do that kinda speed, although the Boxter would be a far more sporty car than the IS.

With all the years the 3 has been around, it took Lexus less than 6 years to meet and exceed the 3-er. In the C&D comparo, the 330i came in 1st ahead of the IS350 by a lousy 1 point ! Practically, a tie !!! And when it comes to sheer speed, the IS leaves its competition in the dust. Did you realise that the IS350/6A was faster than a 330i/6MT ? Yea, I guess BMW needs a turbo-charged motor real quick before Lexus becomes the HP king in the entry-lux sedan. And when the new 400HP M3 comes out, guess what, a 400HP IS500 would be following real close. That is what I call real competition.

Finally, the only thing...I repeat... the only thing Lexus needs to do to the MY2007 IS350 is to put a manual in the car, and its game-set-over....Next, I hope Lexus realises that the demand for the IS350 would far outnumber supply, and they revise the ratio and give us an almost 40% of all new IS to be the 350 trim.

Where is DrFill to help sort out all these car mag comparos ????

307web

BMW is not worried about an adolescent game of trying to be "horsepower king." Leave that to buyers of WRX STIs, Evos and the like.
There will always be some other car that comes out that will be faster.
Once your car is fast enough for your daily driving, why be concerned that some other car is faster?

oac

BMW is not worried about an adolescent game of trying to be "horsepower king."..

Do you realise that the 330i in the comparo broke down during the test with major mechanical problems ???? BMW couldn't even provide a reliable car for a comparo... How lame is that ??? That fact alone should have knocked the Bimmer off the chart, but the bias of the auto rags remains....I mean, how unreliable can the Bimmer get, breaking down when it faces its competitors ???? Try to explain that one buddy ... Face it, the Bimmer reign is all but over. Lexus can put a nail in it with a manual tranny and a kill switch for the VDIM....

biker4

BMW need not worry yet about the new IS - certainly not overseas where Lexus sales are miniscule.
When sales reach 5K+/mo consistently and some of those sales come out of BMWs share of the pie, then BMW might be worried. That won't be happening for a long time.
Acura (with its 7k/mo TL and 3K/mo TSX), Infiniti (with its 3K/mo G35 sedan) and the Lexus itself (with 6K/mo ES sales) might be the ones with the loss of the share of the pie.

sunilb

I hope Lexus does kick the BMW with this new car... it'll just force the manufacturers to continue to improve their vehicles-- which is good for all of us!

Seriously, with an extra 0.5L of displacement, Lexus should definitely be faster than the BMW. I always found it perplexing that Infiniti would put such a big engine in their G35, but not get the gearing right so that it was only meeting the BMW 0-60.

If Lexus can provide the speed, feedback and balance (and a manual tranny!) in this package then all of their competitors will take notice and have to work harder.

150mphclub

Do you folks understand that LESS than 10% of the North American market buys a manual tranny. Even BMW sells a heck of a lot more automatics in North America than it does manuals. As for the VDIM kill switch, I would bet that less than 1% of the market cares about that one. If you want sales, you cater to the big market, and let the niche market take care of itself.

What about reliability? Lexus leads the industry. BMW brings up the rear. Your manual BMW with a kill switch does you a lot of good sitting in the shop.

blueguydotcom

I'd rather have a car in the shop 20% of the time and love 80% than be bored 100% of the time.

oac

I'd rather have a car in the shop 20% of the time and love 80% than be bored 100% of the time

Bored driving an IS ??? That is the greatest understatement of the year !!!! Believe the hype of the BMW if you must... drink the koolade if you must, but don't expect us to follow your logic here. The IS is indeed a very boring car..... right...

blueguydotcom

by everything I've read, the IS doesn't sound exciting. it has an automatic. and apparently, handling that's subpar to a 3. considering a 3 doesn't have the greatest handling - about 7-8/10s what a car should be, I'm not expecting much.

as i've stated before, it will be driven. but i can't conceive of wanting a car with some sloppy automatic transmission.

kssod1

They IS350 is great, even better for 5-105 of people who want a manual. My complaint is that the AWD IS250 is way under powered. I want AWD and performance.

kdshapiro

"That is the greatest understatement of the year !!!! Believe the hype of the BMW if you must... "

LOL. Nice one. That is too good not acknowledge. Lexus fans believing BMW is hype. That's rich I'll say.

wco81

Anyone ever try using seat covers on the Lexus models with perforated leather for ventilation?

Would that screw them up to have them covered up?

rotoryfan

Lexus fans believing BMW is hype.

No need to debate opinions, just check out Edmunds forums on BMW problems and solutions. "Being one with your car" and other marketing hype only goes so far - then you have to live with the car every day.

I have never owned a Lexus or BMW but my criteria would be a little more in-depth than "glossy brochure says "ultimate driving machine" - check!"

Is the 3 or the IS closer to the "total package" and where do you want to put YOUR (serious) money? Sounds like a personal decision...

kdshapiro

I've already made my decision and put my money where my mouth is. I think the Lexus IS350 is an appealing car and this is a Lexus forum. However based on the post I replied to, a response is fair game to the content of that post.

oac

by everything I've read, the IS doesn't sound exciting. it has an automatic. and apparently, handling that's subpar to a 3....

You have not been paying attention. The IS350 was best in 3 objective categories where the Bimmer was not even close to:

IS350:
- best in braking - objective
- best in 0-60 (5.1s) - objective
- best in 1/4-mile (13.7s @ 104mph) - objective

330i:
- best in handling (10/10 v IS350s 9/10) - subjective
- best in ride (9/10 v IS'350s 7/10) - subjective

Notice that the 330i tester was the *sport-version* while the IS350 was the *non-sport* version. Notice that the Bimmer broke down during the test, while the IS350 sailed through flawlessly. Notice that the Bimmer had a stick, and the IS350 was a slushbox. Notice that the Bimmer weighed 100Ib less than the IS350, yet couldn't match it in any speed or braking category. Notice that..... forget it.... And what was the margin of victory for the Bimmer ? 1 pt. Hurray !!!! Go and buy the Bimmer if you are so blown away by its ride and handling.... no need to hang around here any longer is it ?

oac

KD:

Wouldn't hurt to see a tester BMW actually hold up during a comparo, wouldn't you admit ??? Your fav brand couldn't even make it through a test against its competitor ? And this is the car that wins ?????

BMW hype is that the car is the ultimate driving machine....yada yada yada....Ultimate machine ??? Guess it should be the best in everything eh ?? Good one....

kdshapiro

I appreciate the reply, since this is not the IS350 vs E90 330 thread there is no need to go further off-topic on this tangent. That can be left for the IS350 vs E90 330i comparison thread.