Natural Gas Prices

xpacific

It is hard to understand why the huge disparity between our sub-$1 / gge pricing here in Utah vs. around $2 in California? Does CA add significant taxes to the fuel, or perhaps it could be that we are closer to the NG fields in Utah and Wyoming? :confuse:

bank1avp

I know you can run upto 15% blend, not sure how much higher you can go, but I do know you can't run 100% Hydrogen.

jetboatjohnny

Have you tried the blend?
Any advantage?
More power?

bank1avp

it's about the same

jetboatjohnny

Garden Grove 2.199 OUCH
It is at an Arco station, the unleaded regular fuel is only 4 cents more.

musicmann

October 27, 2006

Price of regular unleaded gasoline at several stations in my area: $2.199 per gallon.

Price of CNG at Clean Energy stations in my area: $2.199 per gge.

I'm somewhat fortunate in that I currently am participating in Clean Energy's incentive of $1.899 per gge for recently purchasing a new Honda Civic GX from one of their approved dealers. But this incentive only lasts for 18 months.

It's a little tough to proclaim the operating cost benefits of a CNG car with prices like this.

epnfrn

i agree ... but we all know that clean energy are rip-off artists compared to the other folks. trillium and pg&e are consistently $0.20-30 / GGE cheaper than the clean energy stations within a few miles. i highly recommend going to their webpage, and sending them an email asking them why their competitors are so much cheaper. power to the people!

http://www.cleanenergyfuels.com/contact.html

epi

jetboatjohnny

I avoid the CE stations if I can, but when I hang out in the OC it is convienient. I wouldn't even care paying more if it meant I could drive across the country, CNG pumps at all the Arco stations like the one in Garden Grove.
The big factor for me buying my GX was the convienience of a fueling station close to home 24/7, and now happy as hell the price is 1.654.
54 cents difference, something is wrong here!
Feds just kicked suppliers 50c gge minus 12c increase in tax

londnr

Don't get me started on Clean Energy! I have posted several of my thoughts about their pricing policies.

I live in Garden Grove and have the choice of driving 2 miles to the CE pump in Seal Beach or driving 2 miles to the Gas Co station - which do you think I choose?

While out to lunch in Seal Beach a while ago I ran into the gentleman from CE responsible for setting their prices. I mentioned that I avoided their pumps whenever possible because of the noticeable price difference - he got very defensive and said that the Utilities like So Cal Gas and Long Beach Energy (before CE took them over) sold the fuel at below cost and poor, poor CE were only just scraping by.

I have never heard such unmitigated BS - how do they respond to the fact that the Utilities got an increase in the price they charge for compression so that they could "better track gasoline prices" yet they are still consitently cheaper than CE?

What about the interview I heard on the radio where T. Boone Pickens (CE founder, president and CEO) said there was a glut of Natural Gas - followed by an increase in prices at the pump?

I never ever use CE unless I am absolutely stuck, and even then I would rather run to a So Cal Gas pump with my fuel light blazing.

I know it's tough but, being as how we have to plan our driving around CNG pumps anyway - let's try and avoid CE pumps whenever possible. It may not change CE's policy, but maybe if the other suppliers are seeing steady sales it will discourage them from handing over their pumps to CE like Long Beach did.

BTW where are you filling at $1.654? Garden Grove So Cal is $1.835 as of today.

xpacific

Can someone explain why we only pay 86 cents/gge up here in Utah (not that I am complaining)? It has to be either:
* Lower NG costs as we are closer to the source
* Higher taxes in CA vs. UT
* or, greedy suppliers in CA? :surprise:

What do you folks in CA pay for NG at home?
We are at $0.85 per therm up here.

jetboatjohnny

I fill up at the Riverside Transit Authority (RTA) in Hemet, I live in Hemet and fill in the evenings on my way home. The price was 1.98 in August when I bought my GX and September it went up to 2.054 and now 1.654.
They adjust the price on the first day of every month.
I commute to Brea (143 miles r/t) and usually stay one night in OC and fill in Diamond Bar (SCAQMD Pinnacle 1.85) on my way in, but they are closed on Mondays.
Now my regular fillups cost about 5-6$
I spend about 30$ a week to drive about 620 miles.
I keep a log, if anyone wants it let me know.
J

musicmann

Wow! Only $0.86 per gge for CNG at a public station in Utah?! I'm not sure I can explain it either. Probably all three things that you mentioned (Lower NG costs because you are closer to the source, higher taxes in CA vs UT, and greedier suppliers in CA) are all factors. Perhaps also the CNG stations in your area are somehow being subsidized for fueling equipment and/or electricity.

For my bill ending in the middle of October, Southern California Gas Company (SoCalGas) charged me $0.76 per therm for the baseline rate, and $0.94 for the over baseline rate. The baseline rate was applied to the first 14 therms, and the over baseline rate was applied to any therms used beyond the first 14. In the winter months, we are allotted more therms in the baseline rate. SoCalGas offers a lower rate to residential customers with a home CNG refueling appliance. This rate is lower than the baseline rate and applied to all the gas that is consumed at that residence (there is no over baseline rate). I do not qualify for the lower rate because I do not yet have a Phill unit in my home. You can see on my other posts, that I'm working on getting the Orange County Fire Authority plan inspection fee waived or reduced first.

jetboatjohnny

Placentia (City NGV Station) 2.099
Ouch again

ngv123

I just filled up at the CE station this morning on my way to work and it is $1.899 per gallon

jetboatjohnny

Hemet RTA 2.174 up .52/gge :mad:
Diamond Bar 2.23 up .38/gge :sick:

bank1avp

Was just told by one of my customers that CNG at all the UT stations are now $.76 per gallon. Makes you want to move there doesn't it :0)

Murphy

xpacific

Well, er, 73.6 cents per gge in Utah to be precise (Questar just implemented their recently approved rate decrease).

Oh, and we can now get the 50 cent per gge rebate on our Phill useage at home (need to have a separate meter installed and on the other hand we have to pay 18.3 cents/gallon in fuel excise taxes, so we net a credit of $.317/gge).

bank1avp

I just might move my business up there with how cheap CNG is. :0)If I ever do expand Cedar or SLC will be the first branch I open

Murphy

jetboatjohnny

City Of Placentia 2.179

epnfrn

CE Frisco -- $1.99

Alright, I was very excited today, but of course no one at work was impressed -- perhaps you folks can share in my joy ... i have a 2006 Civic GX, and have been getting better and better fuel economy as she ('Natalie') breaks in. with 4k on her now, i'm consistently getting 37-43mpg (mostly freeway- but Bay Area freeway), and on my most recent tank went 254.3 miles with the light on for last 5mi. Fill was 6.095 gge (for about 42mpg). Theoretically, that means another 2gge existed and another 84mi.

06 GX owners -- how much are you getting out of a tank??

All owners -- How much of that 2gge theoretical do you think I actually have access to? Does Honda really design their warning system to go on with a full 25% remaining??

epi

jetboatjohnny

That's great mileage, but I would not count on another 84 miles on a tank. I dont think the gge equivalents work out so equivalent. On regular fills from the bus depot in Hemet I average 36-38 mpg and even when I did 178 miles, last 12 with the light on it only took 4.8 gge. It had about 600psi left in the tank.
My regular 143 mile commute takes usually about 3.5 (gauge shows 1/4) and 1200psi.
If I fill at the Diamond bar station I could probably get an extra 50+ miles in range, but it is not as convienient and not open 24/7.
I have yet to read about anyone being able to fill much more than 6 gge.

bank1avp

I've run a 2000 GX bone dry to test this. At 75 mph (cruise control on) I got 200 miles before the fuel light came on and the car died at exactly 240 miles. Car started back up but had enough vapors to only go about 200 feet, then would not restart at all. This was on a fast fill. It then took 6 GGE from a fast fill station to fill it back up.

As far as getting more than 6 GGE in. I am converting one on my GX's into a show car to promote my dealership, along with customizing it I am putting in a 3 GGE tank in the trunk. I'll have pictures on my website soon. It's a new aluminum tank, empty weights about 80 lbs and drops the rear suspension 1/4 inch, I plan on installing aftermarket performance springs to get it back up. I expect another 90 to 120 miles with this addition. So my best case scenario now becomes 360 miles, not bad for a dedicated car. Even my H1 gas hummer only had a 220 mile range.

gonzalju

I owned a 2005 GX and I am considering the addition of a second tank in the trunk. Will that void Honda's warranty? Do you know of anybody in the Southern CA area that can do the job? Are you planning to offer that service in your dealer?

bank1avp

Voiding warranty I don't know I would guess yes. I offer the 3 gge extra tank on my current inventory only. I have a limited supply of tanks and offer it to my new customers for an extra $500 over the price of the car.

londnr

There is a chap in Huntington Beach who does work on LPG and CNG vehicles. I guess it will depend on whether or not he has tanks available. I don't know if I am allowed to post his information, hopefully it won't be a problem. I am not affiliated with this company, I just know that Bruce has always been helpful when I needed to get a question answered - the company is Alternate Fuel Technologies and you can find them in the phone book, they are on Gothard in Huntington Beach.

I hope that giving Bruce a mention isn't a problem as there are so few sources for aftermarket parts that I think it is important we are able to share this information.

jetboatjohnny

CA-Moreno Valley $1.89
I am surprised that CE has a better price now than all my other local (Southern CA) fuel stations

jetboatjohnny

CA-Garden Grove (CE) $1.899

bank1avp

Same thing here in AZ, all of a sudden CE is the cheapest. $1.89 at the CE Airport location today

Murphy

epnfrn

i'll take credit for that! i had a back and forth of emails with CE about a week ago, questioning why their prices were consistently higher than everyone else's. perhaps they listened! feel free to send me some of the money you are now saving.

epi

epnfrn

Trillium in Berkeley up to 2.01 this morning (was 1.72 just 2 days ago )

epi

rst

$1.86 at the Burbank, Ca Lake St. location. There was a bus in the next lane taking on 80gge.

jetboatjohnny

CA_Hemet 2.12
Fuel prices always change on the first day of the month.
My local source dropped by a nickel, but last month I was using the CE stations regularly (Morno Valley & Garden Grove) and saving .38/GGE, in October Hemet was .64/GGE less than CE.
Reliability of fueling stations is a BIG issue with NGV owners, the one thing GREAT about the Hemet station is being reliable. I know most people reading this will never fill here, but it is a great stop on the way to Idylwild.
On Monday I went to the Ontario station, and the modem on the "Fuel Force" would not connect. It is very attractive with the 1.72 price, but lousy 3000psi fills, It is hit and miss. Luckily the station in Placentia is close to my work, and Diamond Bar SCAQMD is closed on Mondays
Please someone post the SO Cal CE Prices.
Thanx L8R
J

bank1avp

I don't know if my website has all the stations but they are fairly current people have been pretty good about sending updates. I've approached C.E. and Trillium/Pinnacle on behalf of the NGVOA. C.E. says they can't do anything until beginning of next year when they will have a special fleet card available that would give NGVOA a discount at the pumps. Pinnalce/Trilluim has something available now that will link to the members credit/ debit card and also provide us with a discount. They should be getting back to me shortly.

Murphy

bank1avp

FYI: since member ship sign up became availble 72 hours ago. We currently have 73 members across 12 states.
AZ 39
CA 18
UT 3
IN 2
WA 1
AL 2
NV 1
OH 2
OK 2
IL 1
LA 1
MI 1

big_mike92882

I noticed yesterday the public CNG fueling station in front of the Corona City Yard was $1.83 gge. I didn't go by the Corona Post Office to see what CE was charging.

londnr

CE in Long Beach is $1.89.9 as of 12/4/06

jetboatjohnny

CE in Moreno Valley is still 1.899, but I can never get a 100% fill according to their readout. I usually get 82-89%. At the CE in Garden Grove I always get 100%.
I got my best run yet last week, went 196 miles, 21 with light on. (99 GX)

bank1avp

Alright I'm going to try this again tomorrow. Phoenix AZ to Indio CA first fueling station is exactly 240.15 miles. Last time I tried this I ran out in a 2000 GX at exactly 240 miles. I got a tow truck on standby tomorrow for the tow in if I don't make it. I'm also going to stick it in nuetral as I come down the hill. I talked to the station manager at the City of Blythe yard and begged him for 1 GGE so I could make it to Indio he just would do it. I offered cash when I arrived or to pre pay with a credit card anything, he wouldn't help. The 2004 is actually making the trek to Santa Cruz to it's new owner. Taking the 10 to the 101 to get there, Gives me a station about every 100 miles.

The last 240 miles I got was from a 100% 3600 psi fast fill. Tomorrow I will be armed with a 3600 psi slow fill from my FM2.

I'll let you all know Saturday when I get back. Wish me luck. I was hoping he'd buy the one with the extra tank, darn

Murphy

jetboatjohnny

Good luck Murphy, I'd guess you have a good shot at making it. I'd say try to keep the speed down for better mileage, but I noticed on my 99 GX it doesn't seem to matter that much. I can get about 1.5-2 mpg increase in my van by driving 70 instead of 75-80, but on that long stretch it is hard to drive that slow, and on the AZ side the speed limit for trucks is 75 vs 55 in CA.
I dont understand why anyone would not buy the extra tank for $500? Seems like a no-brainer.
J

epnfrn

good luck murphy. correct me if i'm wrong, if you are coasting down a hill (aka, no foot on gas) your engine is either idling when in neutral (and thus burning gas), or spinning due do it's linkage to the drive wheels spinning (ie, not using gas). this is absolutely the way it is in a manual transmission, but perhaps not in a cvt??

i agree re: the $500 for extra tank ... sure wish murphy would take a vacation to the Bay Area, stop by my house, and install one in my 06. though, with the 06, i've gotten several 250mi+ tanks thus far, and that is all commuting in the Bay Area mileage, so maybe i should shut my face about it

epi

bank1avp

Good point on the CVT. I'll stick it in nuetral and if the car still revs with the wheels coasting I'll go back to drive. Really whats the point of "N" on a CVT tranny then? :confuse:

I am actually delivering this car to a customer in Santa Cruz and visiting the grandparents in San Jose. Might have to make a stop at Girradelli square before I fly back. :sick:

I'll be staying in Milpitas tomorrow night so that I can visit the Dave and Busters there. We don't have them here. Can't wait to have the Blacken Chicken Pasta

epnfrn

but remember, the RPMs you see don't tell the story. for instance, i can be driving my S2000 (manual) at the racetrack, and decelerating (in gear) the RPMs can still be flying at 8-9000, but as long as i'm not on the gas, i'm not burning any gas. however, if i stuck it in neutral, RPMs would drop to 1000 or so, and now i would be using gas to idle the engine as opposed to allowing the forward inertia to spin the engine through transfer via the drivetrain. this is probably old hat to you, so sorry if i'm rehashing.

i imagine neutral in an automatic is for times when you want to be able to move the car, but don't want it to move on it's own, e.g. to put up on a trailer you can't have it in gear or in park.

i still contend that if one really want to use the least gas possible when descending a hill, leaving it in gear would be the best way. this is also safer, as it is one less step to get back power if you need it.

have a great drive, and do spend some time in SF!
epi

bank1avp

I made it. The fuel light came on at 205 miles and by the time I got to Indio costing down the hill (I did use Nuetral)I was at 237 miles. It took 5.770 gallons from the 3600 psi pump.Do the math thats 41 MPG with the cruise set at 70mph. Sunline transit in Indio was charging $2.29/GGE.

Next stop was in Pasadena but I got caught in the LA morning traffic and only got 34mpg that leg. $1.89 from the CE station.

I didn't get a full fill in Santa Barbara so I couldn't calculate MPG. PG&E CNG was $2.18 but gas was $2.75 there.

Next stop was San Luis Obispo. I forgot what I paid, but I don't believe it was really out of whack, like the time I went through Midland Texas $4.85/GGE no kidding (A Pinnacle Station)

Ok so I'm in the home stretch and I've been driving for 10 hours so from San Luis Obispo to San Jose cruise was set at 80mpg. Get this I fill up at San Jose Airport for $2.00/gge and when the math was done I got 43.3 mpg. I did the math a few time.

From this trip and previous trips I've done a good rule on thumb on the GX's CNG consumption is that you can travel 2/3rd's of a mile on 1 psi.

Murphy

dburkhard

Just moved to Utah from L.A. Gotta love the gas prices here. Currently at $0.73/GGE.

xpacific

Be sure to claim your $3,000 Utah state tax credit (assuming the vehicle has not already taken it). For details, have your VIN ready and call Utah Division of Air Quality at (801) 536-4020. Note that bi-fuel vehicles are elegible too! :shades:

jetboatjohnny

CA-Moreno Valley 1.999
I presume the Garden Grove station is also 1.999

epnfrn

does anyone know yet how to claim the CNG end user rebate on this year's taxes??? trillium still has a sign on their pumps, but best i can tell, the IRS hasn't decided yet. i'm interested in getting my taxes going as soon as my forms come in, so sure would like to know!!

thanks,
epi

jetboatjohnny

CA-Anaheim 1.999
It is now a Clean Energy station

lakewood90712

How is the fill pressure ? That station was known for less than 3,000 most of the time.

jetboatjohnny

I got a great fill.
I can usually tell by how many miles it takes for my fuel gauge to hit the full mark (line on the gauge).
The pump has both 3,600 and 3,000 hoses like all the other CE stations.