Toyota Matrix

badtoy

got some bad news fer ya....

Re "The best though is reading the post about how in Japan, the Chevy Cavalier (that would be the twin of the [Pontiac] Sunfire) is sold under the Toyota name. Hmm, I own a Cavalier... does this mean that it is suddenly more reliable?"

Uh, no...matter of fact, the Cav hasn't been sold by Toyota in Japan for quite some time now -- they suspended the program after the car bombed in Japan. Something about quality of materials, paint, etc. The Japanese stayed away from the car like the plague, and they LIKE American cars -- at least some of them.

The sad thing is, the Cavs that Toyota was shipping to Japan were the best of the best. They had a special inspection line at the GM plant and pulled off only the best ones. Before the project even got off the ground they asked GM to make some changes (no unpainted bumpers or mirrors, for one -- everything had to be color matched).

It may come as a bitter pill, but it is a fact -- small American cars still aren't the equal of either German or Japanese makes, quality-wise. I think the Cav is a great-looking car, and it has decent power. But the interior materials are cheap, the engine is buzzy and rough, and they just won't last like a Honda or Toyota. Neither will a Neon or Focus, if that makes you feel any better.

Sorry. Really I am. American companies can, and should, do better.

clyde2000

I admit I don't know the story behind the Toyota Cavalier, but I just thought it was odd that Toyota would agree to such a thing in the first place.

I completely agree that American automakers as you say can and should do better, but I wonder if the same stereotypes would prevail. There are those that never would purchase foreign cars, and vice-versa.

We'll see what happens with the Matrix and Vibe...

Sporin

But the Cavalier was still just a Cavalier.

The Corrolla and Prism were EXACTLY the same vehicle under the skin... as will be the Matrix and Vibe

pocahontas

Here's a direct link to Edmunds.com's First Look of the 2003 Toyota Matrix, by Warren Clarke. Let us know what you think. Thanks for your comments. ;-)

Pocahontas

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drew_

From Edmunds' review, it does seem like the 180hp engine will be available with AWD.


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qbrozen

hmmmm.... funny, I didn't get that impression from that article. Just said the sport model will come with the 180 hp. Didn't say anything about 180 hp AND AWD.

Sporin

No offence, but that article is one big piece of non-informative fluff. It sounds like it's culled dierctly from the Toyota press release.

When will we get an actual road test Edmunds? :-)

eclipsegs

Hmmm...any thoughts on the 17in wheel package? The prototype looks like it uses aftermarket wheels, as most do.

badtoy

The 180-hp version will come with the 6-speed or Sport Shift (or is it "E-shift" in the Toyotas? I can never keep track), and AWD. It's official, and has been for some time. Whether or not AWD is available on the 140-hp version, I don't know -- haven't heard a thing.

badtoy

There was a very good reason Toyota agreed to sell the Cav in Japan as a Toyota.

Toyota and GM have had a joint operating agreement ever since they started the NUMMI plant in Fremont, California, producing Corollas and (when they first started) Novas (a travesty on the name Nova that only GM could possibly contemplate). Later, they started the Geo nameplate and named their version the Prizm (with a "Z," folks). All of the cars produced at NUMMI were engineered by Toyota and produced using the Toyota Production System (TPS), which is why GM is way ahead of Ford and Chrysler in their manufacturing technology.

There have been several big political dust-ups over them furrin cars comin over heah and stealing our wives n chillun, and Toyota is as sensitive as anyone over their image as stealing the bread off UAW workers' tables. So any opportunity to pour a little oil on the waters is a good thing in their eyes, and they gave the Cav a shot.

Remember how all the rednecks always say that American cars don't sell in Japan because of the import restrictions and tarriffs, or the dealer network, yadda yadda yadda??

Well guess what, folks -- Toyota not only imported the things and sold them through their own dealer network, they slapped their own nameplate on it, and it STILL wouldn't sell.

So much for that myth.

Excuses suck.

badtoy

Great review on the Matrix. I also notice that I said the base car gets the 140-hp engine from the Celica. Apparently it only produces 130 hp, as in the Corolla. (It's the same 1ZZ engine, and any disparity in hp arises from exhaust tuning -- easily remedied.)

lngtonge18

Just curious, where has it been made offical that AWD will come with the 180 hp engine?

drew_

Road tests will be available as soon as our editors get one to test. I don't believe there are currently any production models in the Toyota test fleet yet since the vehicle is still very new and not even for sale yet.


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qbrozen

well, according to the pdf available through the toyota website, the AWD option is ONLY available on the Base and XR models WITH Auto tranny. Both of those models, by the way, come with the standard engine. The 180 hp engine comes with the XRS package which, in turn, comes with the 6-speed tranny (the features list says the auto is "available", but the individual options list doesn't show it - weird). No mention of AWD with the XRS anywhere.

If you've seen Toyota state differently elsewhere, please let me know where. If this car comes with 180 hp, a 6-spd, and AWD, I will be VERY interested in it.

iamz

I apologize if I am offending anyone but,.... the Matrix looks a bit like a minivan that was left out in the sun to long (melted, sagging, and drooping).

Toyota normally does a fine job of designing clean exteriors on their cars.

Oddly, Pontiac, a company I despise for their excessively overworked exteriors, seems to have come out with their first fairly clean design in years on the Vibe.

This scenario seems a little backwards.

badtoy

Every press release I've ever read on the car says AWD will be available with the 180-hp engine, as well as the 6-speed manual. Take a look at the Edmunds review on this stie -- same thing. Where have you read different?

badtoy

Matter of personal taste, but I prefer the Matrix to the Vibe. The Vibe looks like another sport-ute to me, while the Matrix looks more like a sportwagon.

iamz

Your right. If every car maker designed their cars to appeal to me there would be a lot of frustrated people out there.

Maybe the Matrix will grow on me. I haven't seen one in person yet either.

I see your point on the Vibe. There are enough SUVs offered today without having to introduce a wanna-be SUV.

qbrozen

Um... look up at my last post. The Toyota website - that's where its posted differently. Are any of the press releases you've seen somewhere where we can take a look at them? I really want to see those. I truly am hoping the statistics provided on the Toyota website are wrong (although it seems strange to me that they would be).

Also, could anybody pull the quote from the Edmund's article that states it comes with 180hp AND AWD? I know that I can seriously be blind sometimes and really need something pointed out to me. In any case, I'm just not seeing that statement in that article.

zupster

Does anyone know what to expect as far as leg room. Typically, I can't fit in Toyota compact vehicles (Rav4, Corolla). The Focus wagon fits fine, but I would prefer to get a Toyota.

tecumseh3

I've been looking at the Vibe/Matrix information thinking this may be what I'm looking for in my next car. But, I'm not 25 and I don't want a manual transmission. The problem is that I want the power they are linking with the manual (I live around Boston and you have to be able to get up to speed or you'll get flatened). I just don't understand why either Pontiac or Toyota can't make the bigger engine available with either manual or automatic. Is this some kind of marketing ploy? If so, I think it's misplaced. Guess what - us AARP members still buy cars too.

qbrozen

So far, there is nothing that says you won't be able to get the automatic with the 180hp engine. You can do it in the Celica, so I don't see why this should be any different.

lbthedog

Drifting a bit further away from the subject but the biggest reason the Cavs didn't sell was price. They cost too much. Kinda of why Toyota will build over here with the Matrix. They're having so much trouble with the banking systems in Japan (can you say a TRILLION dollars in bad loans) that management knows the climate for business is far better on this side of the pond. Nothing wrong with northern hemisphere workers. Union or non union. Next couple years are going to be interesting for all the Japanese companies. Suppliers are going belly up left and right. You can always build a better mouse trap but you've got to make money selling it.

badtoy

Direct quote from Edmunds' test, which you can access under "Reviews":

"The Matrix will be available with either front- or four-wheel drive, and buyers will have the choice of manual or automatic shifting. The vehicle's standard four-cylinder engine will be ULEV-rated and will feature Toyota's variable-valve technology and deliver 130 horsepower (this is the same praiseworthy engine found in the Toyota Corolla). The Matrix Sport model ups the performance ante considerably, featuring the same DOHC 1.8-liter 16-valve four-cylinder variable valve timing engine found in the Celica GT-S. The engine produces 180 horsepower at 7,600 rpm and 130 foot-pounds of torque at 6,800 rpm. Power is complemented by a sport-tuned suspension and standard 17-inch wheels and tires."

Once again -- where have you seen different?

damax07

Toyota's web site has been updated. Now, a date has been announced, and it says that the Matrix will be available in February 2002. Hopefully, the prices and the options details will be available soon!

Damax07

qbrozen

I told you where - ON THE TOYOTA WEBSITE.

I've read that particular paragraph from Edmund's about 5 times now (before you even pulled it for me). It does not specifically state that you can get AWD AND 180 hp. They are separate sentences and on opposite ends of the paragraph. Not exactly what I would call concrete evidence.

badtoy

I work for Toyota, okay? It's available with 180 hp and AWD. Trust me on this one.

qbrozen

I'll "kind of" trust you on this one. I'm not much on trusting people, so I'll just really hope its true. I'd have to take a serious look at this car if all this does come on it. When's it coming again?

Hey, so, if you work for Toy, tell them to update their pdf, will ya?

badtoy

I tell them stuff all the time -- including to be sure and monitor the comments on this site and the Yahoo Club boards. They finally have someone to do that, and I hope it helps -- word from the street is like air. Without it, you die.

eclipsegs

I just received the first flyer information for the Pontiac Vibe and the GT model w/180 HP is not offered with AWD, so how can the Toyota Matrix have it?

damax07

Eclipsegs you are right,
But if you go on Toyota's web site you can download the Matrix Spec's. To me, it is clear that AWD is not available with the 180hp. Toyota will have three (3) trim level: Base, XR and XRS. On the Base model and the XR, AWD will be offered, but requires AT (Automatic Transmission). For me, I don't really need AWD, because I live down south. On the other side, I am curious to find out the specifics on the different packages that will be offered.
On the Pontiac Vibe, there are also three (3) trims: Vibe, Vibe GT and Vibe AWD. Again 180hp engine is not available with AWD.
I think the information provided on each manufacturer web site and/or brochure should be considered VALID until these manufacturers announce otherwise, and that would limit the confusion...which was the case when I was researching info on the Mazda Tribute.

damax07

eclipsegs

The weight of an AWD system would slow the performance factor anyway. Give me 180HP and FWD and I'll make it work. Not to mention all of the performance extras already on the market for the 1.8 VVTL-i powerplant.

qbrozen

If performance were the only consideration, then a Celica GTS (the same 180 hp and FWD) is the answer. What we're talking about is wanting the safety and function of AWD with some get up and go. Yes, AWD will slow down the performance factor - which is why it would make perfect sense to give us 180 hp with it.

130 hp and AWD is virtually useless IMHO.

Guys, this is what i keep saying. Its on the website and now its in the marketing material (I also received that Vibe piece the other day). So far, it is really looking like AWD and 180 just aren't coming together for us.

Dennis - if you are serious and not yankin' our chain, then you'd better tell somebody that they are already losing customers due to the fact that they aren't telling us about this combination that you insist exists. By the time the truth comes out, many people may already be driving something else.

eclipsegs

AWD would be nice, but I'd personally rather not have it with this car. Heck, my Subaru Outback has a 2.5 liter 4cyl w/ 165 HP and AWD. I don't think many people will purchase a AWD vehicle with only 130HP. Especially with a vehicle that is on the sport side. We'll just have to see the MSRP first though to determine these factors. It's a long wait anyway. Feburary 2002 is what I've seen.

eclipsegs

Yes, the older Subarus did run at a much lower HP rating, hence the horsepower wars of today and the need by consumers. Yes, it won't be pushed as a "traction" vehicle, but consumers will compare and see other options. I think it's a big mistake marketing wise not to offer the higher output engine with AWD with such a sporty package.

Examples-
1995-1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
2002 Subaru WRX

Toyota once had the "All-Trac" system in the Celica. What happend to that?

qbrozen

Horsepower loss IS an issue - even with Subaru. Even the 2.5 RS is relatively slow given its somewhat high hp and torque numbers. 165 hp/166 lb. torque on a 2700 lb. car would be pretty quick normally. But, the AWD of the Subaru drags it down to greater than 8 sec. 0-60. Not exactly sporty. The L coupe (142 hp) takes almost 10 sec.! These numbers are for manual transmissions to boot.

If the Vibe and Matrix are going to be released with 130 hp, AWD, and automatic transmissions, I'm guessing we'd be looking at somewhere in the 11 sec. range to hit 60 mph.

qbrozen

Now there's something I'd like to see again. Actually, I'd like to see it once. I didn't even know it existed until a year ago or so. And just try to find a used one for sale now. I've never seen one on the market.

dudleyr

RE no 180 hp w/ AWD

The 140 hp engine has the same torque as the 180 hp engine, but at a lower rpm. What is all the fuss about - who uses horsepower? Torque is what makes the car peppy - horsepower isn't a factor until higher rpms and for top speed.

Is everybody worried about the top speed of their cars? I think the 140 hp will go well over 120 mph. I guess if you need to go 140 mph you might need the 180 hp engine. This could be a problem for some people, but I usually keep just under these speeds when I drive. ;^)

I think it would be more appropriate to complain about lack of a manual tranny with the AWD - now that is something that really will effect performance.

dudleyr

I ment to say 130 hp instead of 140 - shows how much attention I pay to horsepower.

Also I should be more clear about the torque I said it was the same, I ment at the same rpm - the 180 hp engine has more at high rpm.

180 hp 130 lb - ft. @6,800 rpm
vs a much more useable
130 hp 125 lb - ft. @4,400 rpm

montanafan

In an article titled "Will 'tuners' tun in the Vibe?", the Vibe brand manager is quoted that Pontiac will have aftermarket options arriving in the following six months after introduction. They include a supercharger. Wonder if that is the solution to the AWD power question?

badtoy

I got the word from somebody on the inside, and they apparently were mistaken about AWD on the 180hp version. Too bad -- woulda been nice. Now I have to find out WHY it won't be available. I'll get back to ya....

damax07

Is this board sleeping or what?
The Toyota web site has been updated.
Damax07

osfan456

They finally added something I personally have been waiting for at the updated website, a color selector. The silver is nice, but it doesn't really do it for me. I'm really diggin' the light blue (Cosmic Blue Metallic). I'm suprised, though, that there aren't any more colors that scream "pull me over". The only color that really stands is the red. I thought there might be a yellow or something along those lines. Oh well. Anyway, what are all of your favorite colors? Go to the website and choose the color selector.

damax07

I also prefer the Cosmic Blue Metallic, but when I will choose it will be in this order:
Cosmic Blue Metallic;
Indigo Ink Pearl;
Desert Sand Mica;
Black.

Damax07

stever

"Toyota's creation of the RSC and the soon-to-be-launched Matrix makes it clear that the company is seriously seeking to win over the youth market by creating the sort of fun, edgy vehicles that this demographic gobbles up in droves."

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tecumseh3

Everyone is disappointed about not being able to get AWD with the 180 hp engine. I feel the same way about getting an automatic with the 180 hp engine. Since an automatic transmission always slows down a car, why give it only the smallest engine available. It just doesn't make sense to me.

coolguyky7

Both of my parents work for Toyota (which saves me around $2000 on a new car :-) )and very soon I shall be driving and I have several decisions to make on what car I want. I have several 2002 models in mind. These are the ECHO, Corolla, Celica, Camry (redesign), Solara, RAV4 and Matrix (2003). The ECHO, Matrix and Corolla would be loaded. Celica, RAV4 would be moderately loaded while the Solara and Camry would have few options on them. I want a vehicle that can get me from point A to point B in an efficient and safe manner although it needs to be stylish, practical and easy to drive. I don't want a vehicle that wouldn't be utilized. (example-I have no use for a Land Cruiser nor an MR Spyder) I also want a vehicle that gives me a good view of the road. Someone I know has a 91 Civic...and I love how I can see the front end of the car from the passenger seat. My vehicle would definitely be automatic, have ABS and side impact airbags (if available) and a CD player. I want to know which vehicle would best suit my needs. I deeply appreciate everyone's advice. BTW--I love the Spectra Blue Metallic XRS Matrix!

dudleyr

I think the echo, matrix, and corolla all fit the bill you will have to decide between economy/seating position (echo), cargo space/handling (matrix) and ride/economy (corolla). The Camry would be the smoothest and most comfortable, but would use the most fuel.

I would put the Celica (quite small)and RAV4 (No more practicallity than the Matrix but uses much more fuel) in the category of cars you are looking to avoid.

coolguyky7

Thanks dudleyr. Much appreciated.

coolguyky7

On a silver Matrix with spoiler and all painted bodywork what would look best?
a)Silver fade to black on all glass (except windshield)
b)Mirror on all windows (except W/S)
c)Smoked metal on all windows (except W/S)

Same question for a blue Matrix with all painted bodywork? THANKS! Input is much appreciated!