Toyota Matrix

Tup

Actually, the subaru system is 50:50 only for the 5 speed tranny's. The automatic is not 50:50....I think it's 80:20 or something. In any event, it still sends some power to the rear unlike the systems that wait for spin.

petl

I'm not sure if I agree with Toyota's estimates. Tup, who gave you this information at the dealership? It seems to go against the current trend. More people are looking for vehicles with better visibility and traction (the Camry offers a more "fuel efficient", quiet, roomy vehicle that can be purchased for $24,000 not to mention the new Corolla soon to be released).

Because of poor sales the FWD RAV4 was discontinued in Canada. The only reason the Highlander is offered in FWD is because of price. Still, most are opting for the 6 cyl. 4WD.

If your information is accurate, I think Toyota is underestimating the demand for this vehicle to be equipped with AWD (particularly in Canada). The only fly in the ointment is PRICE. Toyota has always priced their vehicles higher than comparably equipped vehicles. If this one is priced too high it may not be as successful as Toyota hopes it will be.

My wife and I will be waiting patiently for its release. The Camry stays. However the RAV may be exchanged for the Matrix or a new RAV. Time will tell.

przem23

From all the online reviews, none have listed any fuel economy stats...would anyone have a good idea as to what it might be for the FWD 130 & 180 hp models?

Tup

Gm listed preliminary fuel estimates on the Vibe:

Preliminary Fuel Economy Estimates:

  

Base engine, manual (city/hwy): 30 / 36

Base engine, automatic: 27 / 32

Base engine, AWD: 26 / 31

GT engine: 21 / 28

These are fairly good. Better than the Pro-5.

Check out the GM site (click on the Vibe)

http://media.gm.com

to see some different pictures and info on the Vibe/Matrix. To read the site, you would think GM did everything, inc. the engines.

ateixeira

30/36 is phenomenal. The GT really takes a major dip in fuel economy, comparatively.

Toyota's VC is similar to Subaru's (on manual tranny cars). I think the RAV4 and Highlander have a 50/50 split, too.

-juice

edchen

What is a twist beam rear suspension? I noticed only the AWD has a fully independent rear suspension.

ateixeira

Hmm, not good. Those are not fully independent, so bumps on one side upset the other side.

They are compact and cheap to produce, but not at all an ideal design. You hit a bump and do the back axle boogy.

You sure about that? The Celica and Corolla have fully independent suspensions.

-juice

artdecho

Apparently, Matrix (& Vibe) use a totally new system, not the one from RAV-4 et al......it is FWD only until the rears slip.....then some power is transferred to the back. I, for one, would've preferred the RAV's setup.

moparbad

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=reviews&loc_code=index&content_code=05842196

Tup

Sport compact car has a good review of the Matrix in the January issue. They did a review of the Matrix XRS and then did a separate report where they modified it. Looks like this car will be a new favorite for mods.

lngtonge18

Twist beam axles (also called torsion beam) aren't bad designs at all. They provide good handling and independent wheel control while saving lots of space. They just can't quite match the exact toe control of a fully independent multi-link or control arm suspension design, which can cause a little skittishness at the limit if a mid-corner bump is encountered or if the throttle is lifted suddenly. They do not cause "axle boogy" as stated above (in fact, they provide a calm and controlled ride that rivals any other suspension design) and each wheel interacts with bumps separately. Twist beam axles are similar to a rigid axle in that it comes in one complete piece, but the axle is able to twist at each corner, thus giving it independent wheel control. It looks sort of like this /--------\ The two end slashes represent trailing arms. These arms have the ability to flex up and down, like large leaf springs, which is what controls wheel movement and gives each wheel independence. The main advantages of this design are: compactness (thus increasing storage space) and inexpensive to produce (thus keeping costs down). The main disadvantage is it lacks toe control at the handling limit compared to more advanced designs. The space savings is why you tend to see this design on smaller cars or those meant for hauling lots of cargo.

This design is employed by VW with great success. The Jetta, Golf, Cabrio, Beetle, and non all wheel drive Passats all use this suspension as does the 96-01 Audi A4 without Quattro. As you all know, these cars are known for their good handling, although VW has mastered this design by adding something called "track-correction" (something in the design that counteracts toe-out and thus helps counteract the skittishness of older designs). Mazda uses a torsion beam on their MPV. The Chrysler PT Cruiser also uses it. So you shouldn't worry about owning a car with this suspension.

As for the AWD design, I'm glad it uses only front wheel drive unless slippage occurs. Since you don't really need 4 wheel drive most of the time, the reduced strain on the engine saves gas.

Tup

Thanks Ingtonge for clearing up the twist beam thing. I have read that the new 2003 Corolla also uses this design(no surpise as it has the same platform as the Matrix/Vibe.

I wonder about the fuel savings on the AWD setup. Honda used this type of AWD (Called Real time 4WD) with the CRV and I know the first model CRV didn't manage to get better fuel mileage than the Subaru Forester we bought (I researched at the time we purchased our 5 speed Forester) and the forester uses 50:50 split. The Honda even had a smaller, less powerful engine.

IT's kinda nice to know the power is always going to the 4 wheels since then you know you are taking advantage of AWD all the time...not just when the front wheels slip.

ateixeira

The back axle boogy I felt was in a Maxima at Edmunds Live, going through the bumpy section. Perhaps we should wait to drive the Matrix in similar conditions.

Full time AWD is nice because it reduces understeer and eliminates torque steer completely. The engines in the Matrix won't be overly torquey, so that is probably less of an issue. But drive a V6 Altima and then a WRX and you'll feel the difference AWD makes.

I've charted my mileage on my Forester and have averaged over 25mpg. Not bad for 165hp and AWD. The Matrix could do better 'cause it's lighter.

-juice

lngtonge18

The reason the Maxima feels bumpy is because it uses a different kind of torsion beam setup. It's really a hybrid rigid axle and in magazines it's described as a rigid axle integrated with 2 trailing arms. With this setup, the axle cannot bend, but the arms can. VW's setup, on the other hand, is actually described as independent trailing arms integrated with a transverse member. In this setup, both the arms and the transverse member can twist. If the Matrix uses the latter arrangement, then it should ride and handle nicely.

coolguyky7

The January 2002 issue which is out now of Sport Compact Car magazine features the Matrix. They've got all good to say! It even has a pull out poster.

ateixeira

That makes sense - because I took the Passat across the same bumps at Edmunds Live and it didn't feel as shaky.

That's great, then, for the Matrix.

-juice

artdecho

http://www.canadiandriver.com/previews/vibe_vs_matrix.htm

ateixeira

Matrix looks more like a customized import, while the Vibe is more of a baby SUV crossover, at least it's trying to be. I prefer the cleaner lines on the Matrix, visually, though cladding does help prevent door dings.

-juice

storyteller

The few photos I've seen of the Matrix make it look odd because the roof seems to float cantilever style with no connection to the car except the A pillar. I think this is just an artifact of the particular photos they have shown us, and in these pictures the other pillars just don't show at all. I'd assume the other pillars, even though blacked out, would be visible if you actually were looking at the car.

Tup

The "D" pillar is there but with the Tinted windows on all the pictures it's hard to see. The base actually comes with no tinting and the pillar is there (under the glass).

toyota_0wnz

looks pretty sweet to me. Like Coolguy points out Sport Compact Car has an article about the Matrix as well as an article about a modified Matrix. It's not even out yet and is already drawing up an aftermarket parts stir, probably mostly due to its relations with the Celica.

ateixeira

Lots of them will be slammed. Have no doubt.

-juice

Tup

Actually, has Toyota really had a vehicle that was popular for modification? Honda's civic hatchback seems to get most of the attention for this. The Matrix does look the part.

odman

There's a Canadian car magazine called World of Wheels that has the Matrix on the cover. It has AWD, but it looks like a REALLY base Matrix, without the rocker sills, cladding, tinting, etc. Base cars in blue/grey always look terrible. They like the car but find the steering light. See more:

http://www.autonet.ca/wow/Stories.cfm?storyID=3913

There's also an article in today's Globe & Mail Megawheels section on the Vibe. It says that the AWD has less hp (123 vs. 130)/torque (118 vs. 130) than the FWD model due to more restrictive exhaust routing to get around the rear suspension.

http://www.globeandmail.com/globemegawheels/20011213/good.html

ateixeira

Only the Celica, and in much smaller numbers than Honda and Acura. Even Mitsubishi got more attention from the aftermarket.

Maybe not any more?

-juice

coolguyky7

That Matrix looks like it was given a "hair cut" by not having all those fancy under body spoilers. I think it looks good that way, more racey. I don't like the painted B pillar contrasting with the black C and D pillars which would look better if covered with black tinted glass. That is a must have on this vehicle.

Tup

That one pictured in the world of wheels article is the exact same vehicle I saw at the Halifax car show! Base Matrix in (what I consider) an ugly color, with 4 wheel drive. The wheels are actually just wheel covers in this vehicle so I still wonder what the Alloy wheels will look like in the base.
I too liked it much better without all the cladding and skirting. I do think however that some details will be different in production. Notice the color coordinated side mirrors and B pillar but black door handles. According to the info I have, the side mirrors will be black in the base (as will the door handles). I also didn't like the black "D" pillar behind the glass but this shouldn't matter since the vehicle we ordered (at $800 under MSRP whatever it is) is a base Matrix in Black (so the D pillar should look ok) also with the B option package (A/C, Keyless, alloy wheels). It is due to be made on January 8. We also plan to tint the windows.

dindak

I was reading that the Japanese version of the Matrix will look very similar to the Vibe. They were not sure why, but I guess it gives the Japanese people something a little different than that typical Toyota look.

montanafan

My guess is that it is just easier to export from California to Japan then Ontario?

a_l_hubcaps

Anyone else think it would be cool if Toyota did an ad campaign themed after the Matrix movie? Considering that the target audience for the car is supposedly young people who probably know all the usual quoted lines and scenes anyway, I don't think it would be a bad idea. "There is no car. What moves is your mind." :-)

-Andrew L

odman

Toyota will be selling the Vibe in Japan with the name "Toyota Voltz".

ateixeira

They could play ads saying "what is the matrix?"

Could be pretty cool.

-juice

dindak

http://www.auto.com/industry/vibe20_20011220.htm

Tup

I'm wondering if the Matrix will be priced slightly lower than the Vibe since the Matrix will be produced in Canada and the current exchange rate makes Canada a cheaper place to produce vehicles.

dindak

Doubt it. They will likely be pretty close in price as they will each use exports to offset imports. Generally you can multiply the U.S. prices by about 1.4 to get the C$ price.

ateixeira

I'd guess no on the lower price. Exchange rates fluctuate, and that could put Toyota at a loss if they go in the wrong direction.

-juice

Tup

Well, From a Canadian point of view, if the Matrix and the Vibe are priced the same then Toyota Canada will make more on the Matrix than GM will make on the Vibe because bringing the Vibe in from the US with the exchange rate the way it is will make the vibe a more expensive vehicle to bring to market.

dindak

Not really. You have to look at the big picture for these companies. They both make cars in Canada using C$ labor ect. The low cost of making these cars subsides the lower price they charge in Canada for a car. The depreciating C$ has really thrown things off as car companies can not charge 10% more just because the currency has depreciated 10%. C$ incomes stay the same and hence the "trade subsidy" offsets lower x-rate prices.

On a car specific basis, yes Toyota will gain more from the Matrix but it's offset by high volume cars sold at a 1.4 like the Camry (made in U.S.).

zircon2

I hope GM learned a lesson with Aztek pricing and doesn't overdo things with the Vibe. Since it is beating Matrix to market by a month or so, I expect GM prices should be out first. If they are serious about recovering their lost small market share, this will be a great opportunity for them.

ateixeira

They did. Remember those were $25 grand and up at first? Now they start under $20k.

I'm thinking most models will sell for $16k-$18k with the basic equipment most people want.

-juice

mpgman

Is it February, and then only the smaller engine variety?

Tup

Who said that the Vibe would arrive first? I expect they will arrive around the same time. I have a Matrix on order and it is due to be made on January 8 with delivery around 3-4 weeks after that.

zircon2

PRess reports Vibe will arrive first, about 1 month before Matrix (at least in the USA).

Tup

I'm not sure that the "Press" has the exact date. 02/02/02 is the date that I've seen in Toyota Adds. Perhaps the Vibe will arrive a little before that but I would doubt by much.

jimjps

I am told (by very reliable source) the NUMMI factory is ready and they will be cranking out Vibes on January 2nd. They have already been running small batches through the line. That means local dealers should have them that week. SF Bay area.

Tup

Well, I'm no expert but wouldn't they stock pile a few first before shipping them out? That way they can hit a few dealers at the same time.

As I mentioned before, My Matrix is being built on January 8 and it's (hopefully) not the first one they make. In any event, they should be on a similar time line.

mpgman

Any info out yet on what will be standard and optional based on trim levels?

Tup

To see the toyota specs goto the Toyota.com site, click on the Matrix, click on utility and then specs and then scroll down until you see "download pdf version of specs"

jvkalra

There must be a bunch of people at Toyota whose only job is to devise senseless, complicated options schemes for Toyota vehicles.

I noticed that on the official specs, the Matrix comes in 3 different trim levels. Each trim level comes with 5-9 additional options, plus one or more option packages. Then of course there are both 2wd and 4wd versions. Toyota will probably change the option combinations every few weeks or so, based on market supply/demand, which will make it a nightmare to find the vehicle with the right options. I'm sure the underlying goal is to manage profit by loading up vehicles with useless options, rather than truly meeting the needs of the customer.

As an example of this hassle, let's say I want a Matrix XR with side air bags. I can't. But I can get frills like expensive alloy wheels or a DVD navigation system, or other options. For side air bags I need to step down to the base version or step up to the XRS version. But on the base version, power locks/windows, and AC are optional. Of course Toyota will have the usual disclaimer that their vehicles will be equipped with "popular" (with who?) option combinations. The bottom line is that it will be generally difficult to find the right Matrix, unless one is ready to buy one with some useless, expensive options.

If Toyota plays the same options game that they played with the RAV4, chances are they won't get their target young buyer, who may be turned off by the high price and dealer markup. Based on the complicated options scheme devised for the Matrix, it looks like Toyota hasn't learned that younger buyers prefer simple, straightforward pricing(like Honda).

zircon2

What level of Matrix, engine etc. Price negotiable? Still haven't seen any firm $Can. for the 180 HP version.