Toyota Matrix

petl

Without getting into too much detail or divulging my source. The Matrix is inexpensive. Unbelievable pricing. I don't know how they can build and sell the XR 4WD with all the standard features (too many to list) that it has for the stated MSRP (at least in Canada). There is no catch. I'm glad I waited (almost bought a RAV). The only thing that will nix the deal is if the interior fabrics are not up to snuff. This is an older person's point of view.

jvkalra

I agree, Matrix pricing will have to be reasonably close to the Vibe, otherwise the other car will gain sales at the expense of the other. At the same time, Toyota will probably add $500 alloy wheels and such fluff(without giving you important things like side airbags), and for many people $500 may not be enough to move over to the Vibe. I'm guessing those $500 alloy wheels are $400 of additional profit per vehicle. In my opinion, Toyota does a great job of making it an expensive, confusing hassle to buy their vehicles with their "options" and options packages.

lngtonge18

I think the prices for the Vibe are outrageous! $19,900 for a GT doesn't even buy you power windows, doors, keyless entry, or Cd player. All you get is ABS, alloy wheels, and the 180 horse four. You could pay less and get a Golf 1.8T with similar cargo hauling abilities, same horsepower, much better torque curve, more airbags, better warranty, and more standard equipment. I would expect 19k if it at least had the power package and side airbags, but without it, this car becomes seriously overpriced. Not to mention C&D stated the GT's engine was very loud and figured most people, young and old, would not want to deal with it. They also felt the 4 wheel disc brakes had a bad fade issue. The Matrix and Vibe may be good deals in base front wheel drive trim, but they definitely quickly lose their value quotient.

dindak

Last time I checked VW had 2 year warranties on their cars. Has that changed? Also, the car C&D drove was pre-production. I drive one myself before passing judgement.

montanafan

Per Kelly Blue Book (sorry edmunds): 2002 VW GTI 1.8T with Sunroof & Sound System $20,700, 2003 Vibe with Power Package, Sunroof & Sound System, and Side Bags $21,300. I think the 3% difference would keep both cars on someones shopping list.

hpulley4

I'm pretty sure the GTI is just a 2-door hatch so I don't know if all the Vibe/Matrix shoppers will look at it as a direct competitor.

ateixeira

The Matrix has more room than the Golf, and will likely be more reliable, too. It's half way between the Golf and the Jetta wagon, which costs more.

VW now has a 4/50 bumper to bumper and a 5/60 powertrain warranty. The 2/24 and 10/100 are history, mostly because the latter was only transferable to family members, so it would benefit very few people. Now the warranties are fully transferable.

I think brake fade was listed as "moderate", that's not too bad.

But the bottom line is the styling, Matrix vs. Golf, is a first-round knock out. That will matter most to buyers.

-juice

seminole_kev

...2 (or 3-door depending on your outlook) hatches are Focus ZX3, SVT Focus, Civic Si. Can you get an Subaru Impreza Wagon (really is a hatchback though) as a 2/3 door?

dindak

I heard the Saturn ION due in the fall will also come in a 5 door hatch configuration. Nice to see VW has fixed it's warranties. Last time I was looking at a VW, I was quite turned off by the old crap warranty.

ateixeira

No, Imprezas only come as 5 door wagons or sedans.

The Matrix will compete with the Protoge5, the PT Cruiser, and the Focus ZX5. The Vibe and Impreza TS/Outback Sport, too, and on the high end the WRX wagon (uh-oh, careful on price Toyota).

-juice

hpulley4

Suzuki is replacing the Swift and Esteem wagon cars with the new Aerio available as a 5-door SX or a sedan. Will have a 141hp/135lb-ft 2.0L 16V DOHC engine. Has a small cargo area with the seats up, only 12.9 ft^3 but for a car not much bigger or heavier than a Swift (well, 16" longer, 5" wider and 600 lbs heavier _is_ bigger but still fairly small), that 141 horse engine should move it well. Some details are on suzuki.com but price and some others are not there yet -- I think it'll be announced officially next month.

Should be an interesting year to shop for hatchback/crossovers. I can't wait for the price and incentive wars!

ateixeira

Good catch. The hot hatch is back. Reminds me of the small SUV class back in 1996, when the RAV4 was the only car-based choice. Then came the CR-V, then the Forester, and now a flood of options.

Gotta love competition.

-juice

mpgman

Add this to your list, if you are looking for a versatile car that is less than 180 inches long. The standard equipment will blow you away for $15K or so loaded. 18,000 miles of great driving so far. At least take a look. Hyundai has come a long way!

Tup

Well, here in Canada the Elantra GT starts at around $18,400. My Matrix will cost less than that. Also, if you look at user reviews of the Elantra GT on the MSNcarpoint site you will see there are some serious lemons out there.

zircon2

blow you away too. They still have to deal with that issue.

lngtonge18

I was referring to the 4 door Golf 1.8t, but apparently they dropped the turbo engine option for 02 so my comparison is not completely valid. The Matrix does look sportier then the Golf, but people don't buy on looks alone. At any rate, the Matrix/Vibe is priced ok for the base front drive versions, but the 180 horse four just seems too expensive for what you get.

johnclineii

You have got to be kidding. Go read about the company's attitude about engine replacements and defects right here on the Edmunds news site. One company official, when asked why they hadn't notified owners of engines that may seize up somewhat arrogantly, IMHO, said they could notify owners that CD's may jam as well.

A company that can't see the difference between a safety hazard and an inconvenience is not one I am doing business with. IMHO, Ford hurt themselves all those years they fought recalls over a stalling issue (the engine, though it fit the company as well).

dindak

I will never get past those Pony's they sold in the 80's. Even the 3-5 year old Hyundias on the road today are not holding up well. Re-sale will be bad on Korean cars for a long time to come.

logic1

The Chicago Tribune reported today that the Corolla will base at $13.3k while the Matrix will base at $14.6. I suspect almost anyone who can would rather pay a little more for a far more practical configuration. The Sunfire will probably base at $3k less than the Vibe, but the Sunfire is such an old configuration that you would really have to settle to take one over the Vibe. This is great news for the consumer. Not so good for the compact sedan.

revka

From Edmunds' Coverage of the LA Auto Show:



Read the full story here: 2003 Toyota Matrix, by Brent Romans. Thanks for your comments. Happy motoring!

Revka
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Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards

ateixeira

Even though the Koreans have come a long way, perception trails reality by several years. So even the better, newer models won't have good resale until they have good long-term results (3-5 years later).

I did check out the Sonata and Accord/Camry/Altima back to back, and I have to hand it to the Koreans, they are finally getting it. The Japanese cars had cheaper carpeting and headliners. The headliners felt like cardboard with lint sprayed on them.

In contrast, the Hyundai had a nice, cloth covered and padded headliner. Like the Japanese makes used to have back before the cost cutting began.

Also, the Koreans added articulating hinges in the trunk, like Audi and BMW. The others all use cheap gooseneck hinges, like, well, like the old Korean cars.

So yes, give the Koreans credit, they are trying really hard. Resale would be better if the 10/100 warranty was transferable (it's not).

-juice

petl

Does anyone have any information on what kind of fabric is used to cover the seats? Hopefully it isn't too "multi-coloured funky". Thanks, Peter.

dindak

Like that picture. The Matrix looks good with out the cladding I've seen in many pictures. I almost thought it was the Vibe.

lngtonge18

He is obviously one who pretends to know how Hyundai deals with problems and yet doesn't own one. I visit almost every Hyundai forum and I have not heard of any such engine replacements or seizure problems. Sounds to me like someone is talking out of their you know what again. I get so tired of hearing people try to spread false propaganda.

Dindak: you are going to compare a company's current cars to something they sold in the early 80s. There is a thing called progress you know. Every car has come a long way from that time frame.

dindak

Hyundia has indeed come a long way, but even the recent cars don't seem to hold together well over time. I see many of them driving around with rust That shouldn't be the case on a 4 or 5 year old car. Obviously their cheap prices attract people to buy them, but I just don't see them as being durable for the long haul.

hpulley4

That red Matrix looks very nice. I must say, I'm definitely preferring the Matrix styling to the Aztek-esque Vibe. Too bad Toyota doesn't take GM Card points...

dindak

I saw a picture of a base Vibe and it's pretty toned down also.

Vibe really looks NOTHING like the Aztek.

Tup

Dindak, actually I've read others compare the styling of the Vibe with the Aztek. I guess maybe a little in that they were both styled to look "pontiac". However, In no way should the Vibe be compared to the Aztek in terms of overall looks. I think the only comparison with the Aztek will be how they are polar opposites in terms of how they are received.

As for Hyundai....I would agree that they are way better cars than they used to be. However, it's difficult to shed that first impression that they made when they first were introduced. I think they might do better if they made a separate high end division....like Acura where they could start from scratch and where reliability and quality are the priorities. Some of there recent products are very nicely styled. Resale is still a problem though. If an Elantra GT is similar in price to a Matrix....down the road, the Matrix will be worth more.

hpulley4

Actually, the 2002 Aztek has lost most of the cladding but the pictures I see on the www.gmcanada.com site for the Vibe look like they have a lot of 2001 Aztek-style cladding the car. I hope that gets dropped for the final version or else I'd take the Matrix based on looks (price and other options could get me past the looks though). The front ends are quite similar too but I guess that's mostly the Pontiac nose styling which I think looks a bit weird when 'stretched' on tall nosed cars.

Actually, using the little java applet there you can change the colour and with black or grey the dark lower ground effects and fender covers that I don't like blends in well and it looks good. The default yellow makes the ground effects stand out too much. Dark blue looks good too, which is my favorite car colour so it looks like I could sit in a Vibe after all. As well, I wonder if the base models of Matrix and Vibe will include those effects or are those the skirts mentioned in the spec sheet for the upper models?

Same thing applies to my Saturn LW200 actually -- I got the dark blue to hide the black ground effects. You can get custom ground effects for other colours but it is quite expensive, $700 USD or so for the whole car worth.

revka

And you will only be able to enter here from the Hatchbacks and Station Wagons message boards. We've enjoyed the interaction/participation from the SUV Message Board, but for a number of logistical reasons, we've decided to make this change.

You may also need to update your message center if you bookmarked this discussion from the Suv Message Board. If you have any questions, please feel free to send me an email. Thanks for your participation. ;-)

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Tup

I talked to a Toyota employee who has seen the Matrix in production in Cambridge Ont. He said that the Production line has 2 gaps between each vehicle (so 1/3rd prod) and also the line is moving extra slow. He also said that they really surprised a lot of people with the pricing.

My Matrix was supposedly made yesterday with delivery in around 3 weeks.

ed_scott0013

Do you know if they intend to reduce the gaps and speed up production later on?

(Is this one of those "new-car" things that the assemby line has to go through?)

Tup

Ed:

Sorry, I should have clarified. Yes, this is just the ramping up phase and they are keeping extra care with these new models to make sure there are no problems (maybe why there are fewer recalls with Toyota). Gradually they will get up to full production. My dealer figures he will be squeezed on Corollas.

cayennered1

Monochrome paint (no cladding) will be optional on the Vibe. It of course, is ridculous that you should have to pay extra for one tone paint especially when the two tone cladding is so obviuosly less attractive. I have always favored the Vibe (monotone) styling over the Matrix, but in the claddless look of the red car pictured I think I may be changing my mind.

Tup

Personally, I have found that the Vibe looked attractive right from the initial viewing while the Matrix initially had me scratching my head a little but then I started to warm up to it and now find it just as nice as the Vibe (I don't like the front of the vibe).

For me, the first pictures I saw of the Matrix were of a silver XRS with very dark tinting. The fact that the "D" pillar on the Matrix is always black combined with the very dark tinting made that silver Matrix look like it had no "D" pillar which threw me. Now that I have seen different colors with no tinting...the looks have grown on me.

I remember not initially liking the 2'nd generation (I think) Prelude in the early to mid 80's but that design grew on me to the point where I really liked it. It appears the Matrix may be similar.

dindak

It's amazing how different colors and configurations can totally change the look of a car. I think it's the case with the Matrix and Vibe. The red Matrix picture above looks great. Other pictures with the excessive cladding and ground effects does not suit my tastes at all.

herzogtum71

Does anyone know if the rear seat will hold relatively tall people comfortably? I've read "ample room for 4 adults, 5 if you like to be cozy." I'm 5'11 and can sit in the back of a Corolla, though it's not exactly easy to get in and out if the front seat is pushed back all the way. Will the Matrix have more room? Will there be any difference on headroom between the Vibe and the Matrix? The slope of the roof makes me wonder if headroom has been compromised, but maybe its an optical illusion due to the styling.

Tup

Keep in mind that the Matrix is much higher than a Corolla and has a higher roofline. I would suspect that legroom and headroom would be similar to the Corolla.

jrct9454

...will have more room in back than the current generation Corolla. As noted, the Matrix will probably feel roomier because of the higher roofline.

As pointed out by one of the car magazines, the "slope" of the roofline is an optical illusion created by the window design...it actually is nearly flat from front to back.

grandtotal

Below is a comparison of the internal dimensions of a 2002 Corolla a 2003 Matrix and a 2002 Camry. A useful difference in both rear headroom and rear legroom over the 2002 Corolla. As noted by the previous poster the slope of the roof is not as great as it appears in the photographs. It's interesting that the Matrix has almost as much rear legroom and more rear headroom than a Camry which itself is no small car. [The table is a long way down, sorry]
Dimension

2002 Corolla

2003 Matrix

2002 Camry

Front Headroom	998 (39.3)	1030 (40.6)	995 (39.2)
Rear Headroom	937 (36.9)	1011 (39.8)	975 (38.4)
Front Legroom	1080 (42.5)	1062 (41.8)	1055 (41.5)
Rear Legroom	843 (33.2)	922 (36.3)	960 (37.8)
Front Shoulder Room	1341 (52.8)	1352 (53.2)	1460 (57.5)
Rear Shoulder Room	1326 (52.2)	1336 (52.6)	1440 (56.7)

.

strager

Picked up a Matrix brochure from dealer. In usual Toyota fashion, the XR trim level has for example 10 "options" and 2 additional option packages. That almost guarantees that it will be impossible to find a desired Matrix without paying for several hundred $ or more of unnecessary options. I understand that Toyota changes the combinations from month to month, depending on supply/demand, to maximize profit margins.

I think the Matrix is a terrific looking vehicle, but wish Honda was selling it without Toyota's options game. Granted that with Honda one has to make compromises, but at least they tell you up front what you can and cannot get. With Toyota, you are stuck with whatever combinations of options Toyota wants to sell that particular month, and unless you visit the dealer you don't know what those are.

meesr

....... spent lots of time in the Matrix at LA Show.

Lots of room in there, especially the backseat.

petl

meesr, what type of fabric is used on the seats and are the plastics cheap looking? Do they resemble anything that is used in any current model? Thanks, Peter.

leafguy2727

So 16 days to go until I can go to my Toyota dealer to check out the matrix. Still can't figure out why Pontiac hasn't release their Vibe pricing yet. I think Pontiac will under cut the Matrix.

Tup

Don't expect the Vibe to undercut the Matrix pricing. Remeber that the base vibe is more like the Matrix XR in terms of standard equipment....actually the XR has a couple of options the Vibe doesn't. Also remember that the base Vibe in the US is higher in price to the Matrix XR. However, we must also keep in mind that the Matrix XR in Canada comes standard with Alloy wheels and Cruise where in the US these are options on the XR. Also, the Vibe is made in the US which means it costs GM Canada a little more than the Canadian Made Matrix costs Toyota Canada. With that in mind, I predict the Vibe to come in at $20,000 base. The Vibe AWD is loaded so expect it to be $25,000 or more.

Time will tell.

hpulley4

If the base Matrix starts at $16,450 Can$ then how could and why would the base Vibe start at $20K Can$? $3,500 is a lot for A/C and a few other options. As you say, time will tell -- for now speculation is fun, I guess...

artdecho

see www.nctd.com......have a vibe review also.

scott31

Where did you get your brochure? the dealers in my area (DC) haven't gotten theirs yet, and none of the morons can tell me what options are available.....thanks!

Tup

For the options....just go to the Edmunds site:

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/toyota/matrix/fwd4drwagon18l4cyl5m/options.html?id=lin0016

Actually, do a comparison with the Vibe....it brings up some weird stuff. According to the info there, the Vibe is 2 inches higher, has 2 more inches of ground clearance, has more cargo room, gets better gas mileage, is half and inch longer, has less headroom, weighs 20lbs more....etc. Also the vibe has higher shipping, greater dealer holdback and only a 3 yr powertrain?!?!

Is this just a case of different people doing the measuring? I would expect a few differences.. but 8 inches of ground clearance?!?!

Tup

For the options....just go to the Edmunds site:

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/toyota/matrix/fwd4drwagon18l4cyl5m/options.html?id=lin0016

Actually, do a comparison with the Vibe....it brings up some weird stuff. According to the info there, the Vibe is 2 inches higher, has 2 more inches of ground clearance, has more cargo room, gets better gas mileage, is half and inch longer, has less headroom, weighs 20lbs more....etc. Also the vibe has higher shipping, greater dealer holdback and only a 3 yr powertrain?!?!

Is this just a case of different people doing the measuring? I would expect a few differences.. but 8 inches of ground clearance?!?!