Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier

ranald

I agree the market for genuinely hot hatches seems to be small, smaller than Honda's sales targets for the Si.

That might explain why the Si isn't really very hot. Seems to me to be more of a "warm" plushy hatch, more a competitor to the GTI than to the SVT Focus. They probably did that on purpose, in order to appeal to a wider audience.

If they were really interested in the "bargain basement but maximum sport" true "hot hatch" market they would have brought the Civic Type-R. However in that performance (not price!) category they were more interested in selling the RSX Type-S, as the S was/is likely to be more profitable.

As for what Honda will do in the near future, to retain its market position and image especially with all the new competition appearing and about to appear, maintain interest in the RSX, deal with the disappointment of the Si... well that's a total mystery. There have been so many rumors, all conflicting, all supposedly from "official" sources and all not quite seeming to fit in with previously stated Honda policy in some way, concerning the Type-R's (Civic and RSX) and whether or not those cars would be brought here, who knows what to think.

gee35coupe

SVT 170 hp
Mazdaspeed 170 hp
Si 160 hp

It's the whole segment. The Si is just as capable as any other supposedly "hot" econobox.

ranald

What's not hot is that the Si seems to have less power and be heavier, if more refined, than any of it's likely rivals, the SVT Focus, the Sentra SE-R Spec V (or whatever they're calling it these days), etc. Thus my comparison to a GTI.

Look at comparisons of these cars, the Si gets poor marks in power and acceleration and high marks in everything related to- yup you guessed it- refinement.

Note that the car is no slug, it's just not up to the same standards of "hot" as everyone else.

My point was that the car does not seem to be targeting exactly the same kind of buyers as the SVT Focus, seems to have a slightly different character, and has a different sales target. I suggest those 3 things are linked.

nippononly

hot hatches should look hot, not like mini-minivans.

Needs bigger rims and tires both for visual and handling appeal. And spare us a little on that plush interior - it would save weight too.

crikey

I'll take a minivan-looking hot hatch anyday. I would not mind owning the Honda Civic Si at those price levels.

nyccarguy

responding to some criticizim early in the New Civic Si's release about the size of the stock wheels (15"), and relatively moderate performance gain (Same HP w/ increased torque and similar 0-60mph times as the '99 Si Coupe). They said they gave the car 15" wheels because their target market will probably swap them out for a bigger set as well as modify the engine's power output and suspension's stiffness & responsiveness.

Honda has given the Import Hot Hatch market a great car to start with. I think they expected more people to customize the new Civic Si's.

You could always wait around and wait for someone to crash their RSX-S and do an engine swap. The aftermarket for these cars will only get bigger and bigger.

gee35coupe

The car wasn't designed for this market anyway. It was an afterthought that the Si made it to the U.S. It's a European car.

crikey

...the question of quality/reliability. I'm aware that the Si is currently being built in England. Current owners, how has the quality/reliability of the Si been during your ownership?

I ask because I remember someone telling me that if you want to be on a first name basis with your mechanic, buy an English car, i.e. Jaguar, Land Rover, etc.

anonymousposts

With just at 4000 miles my SI has not had one problem. I don't think being built in London will affect the SI's quality. Honda/Toyota seem to be exempt, for the most part, from the issues that are created with some companies who go into countries like Mexico and build production plants.

auroraboy

Wife has an SiR (Canadian version of the US Si). It has over 14,000 km on it.

Problems so far:

1) Used 2 litres of oil in 1st 8000km. Seems to have settled down, although I have added 1 litre since

2) Driver's side window came out of track, and would go up/down very slowly

3) Shortly after that - driver's side door mechanism broke. Only way to open the driver's door was to roll the window down(fixed by that time) and open with the outside door handle. When they opened the door up they discovered the wire from the inside handle to the lock mechanism had broke. They found one in Montreal and ordered it and fixed it. The mechanic said all other Civics use the more traditional rod mechanism...not a wire

No problems since then. One nice thing about buying one is that there are not a lot on the road, so you have something "unique". The wife bought the Euro Yellow Pearl......and have only seen one like it in 5 months.

Recommended - despite a few problems....Yes. Its lots of fun to drive, especially versus the regular coupe Si (Canada) or EX coupe in US with 127HP v-tech. Despite the couple of problems we have had, I believe that in the long term it will be more reliable than a Focus (no recalls like the Focus).

The Focus SVT is also much more expensive here in Canada, so while it may have a few more HP and bigger wheels etc... you pay a big premium for it here. I do not believe that is the case in the USA.

204meca

While all you happy O2 Si owners are reporting on any problems, I would appreciate hearing about real world gas mileage (accompanied by a general description of your driving style). The 02 Si is still on my shopping list as a replacement for my Del Sol Si. Thanks

siintheburg

about 28 mpg during break in...very conservative driving...I've been much less conservative with the current tank...I'll add that in a day or two.

crikey

OK, what's a good price on a 2002 Civic Si? I keep hearing people getting deals at around $16K and some even below. Is there a Honda incentive being given for these vehicles? Anyone in Central Florida who got a good deal?

revka

Have you had a chance to check out Edmunds' New Vehicle (TMV) Pricing Calculator? Mind you, this is not going to reflect the lowest price, but it will give you the average cost others are paying in your region.

Also, please note: Edmunds' new vehicle TMV prices do not take into account current Manufacuter-to-consumer rebates. You can check in Edmunds' Incentives and Rebates section to see if there are any available in your area. Others here may have more to add.... Good luck.

 

Revka

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Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

dfbidwell

I've been keeping close track of my gas mileage. I've had exactly 9 refuelings with an average of 31.27 MPG. I have a long commute so most of my miles are on a highway but I do have a tendency to lean into it from time to time.

gee35coupe

ike a traffic exacto knife. And the torque....it's like buttah.

204meca

I thought I was going to get a steal on a 2002 Elantra GT ($1250 rebate...). I drove the car & liked (not love) it. Then I took my Bride on a 20 test drive. She was not impressed: felt the seats were uncomfortable (despite all the positive press on these seats - she has a very fussy back) & felt the stlying was blah.

Gotta keept my favorite gal happy, so looks like the Civic Si is back to the top of list to replace the Del Sol, despite lower mpg & oil consumption concerns However, I am going to have to find one of those $15,200 deals. The two dealers in my area have never had more than 1-2 on the lot at a time, and do seem to eventually sell them.

crikey

...$17895.00 + 395 (BS dealer fee) + tax + tag. Not a great deal if others are getting $16K and below. Gotta keep looking...

nyccarguy

$17895 Canadian Duck Bucks, not US right?

crikey

...sorry, I'm a Canuck living in Orlando, FL.

nyccarguy

You can definitely do better than that. They advertise the Sis in the paper here in NY for $15,995.

gee35coupe

Had to have at least 20 Si's in inventory.

Hennessy in Woodstock, Ga may e-mail you a 16000 quote if you tell em that you know of someone who got one of the great deals.

Good luck

crikey

...but I have a trade-in and if I cannot get a good trade-in for my vehicle, then I would have travelled quite a bit for nothing. I'm gonna have to stay within my area.

Looked at the new G35 Coupe yet? Or do you already own one?

anonymousposts

My last tank was 30MPG .. not bad considering I'm not as conservative with the gas pedal as I could be. I usually shift around 3500-4000RPM.

As for the oil consumption .. I used 1 qt a few weeks ago and haven't used any since. I put 3000 miles on the car in it's first month so I think that the two long distance trips I took with speeds averaging 85-90MPH may have contributed to that. It does seem that the oil consumption tapers off after a few thousand miles as long as you obey the break-in period.

crikey: I'm not sure where you live but take your car to a Carmax and have it appraised. They also have these in Atlanta (where it seems you can get a VERY good deal on an SI) so even if the Honda dealer won't give you good money you will have an alternate way of getting rid of your current car. You can also get an e-mail quote from a dealer here and take that to where ever you are and tell them that if you have to you will drive somewhere else to get the deal you want.

gee35coupe

I don't have one yet. They come out in Nov. I'm gona give em a year or so to "get the bugs out". Never buy a first year production.

anonymousposts

today in Atlanta's paper. Team Honda of Lithia Springs has them advertised at this price. They only have 1 stock number listed and it might already be "sold" by the time you get there but it's worth a shot to get them to give you the SI at that price. $14,999 is a heckuva price for this car.

powderfinger

After 16,000 miles, my long term average is 34MPG. About 85-90% of my driving
is between 65-80MPH. I rarely redline the car.

It even gets good mileage when it's low on oil. I just added another quart of oil
at 3100 miles since the last oil change. This is approximately 1 1/2 quarts
total since the last oil change.

At this rate, I don't have to do oil changes. Just keep adding oil.

anonymousposts

and found out the $14,999 was a misprint. The price shoulda be $16,500.

netracer

Heres the deal on my 02 Si: $16,670. Incl. moon roof visor, wheel locks and floor mats. $17,4429.10 out-the-door (Tax,Tags,Fees). Get your financing on-line IMHO. Some good deals are out there and you don't have to mess around with the finance guy at the dealership.
I had to work hard to get that deal. Most of the other dealerships were in that range except for two who would not budge from $19,400. I wonder how many they sold. I'm thinking that there's more than the $500 dealer cash that Edmunds listed... More like 2k. No proof though.. I'm over my 600 miles (2nd tank of gas) and no oil issue yet. Still haven't red-lined it... well.. not on purpose. Takes the back road curves great. BTW: A windshield will set your insurance company back $329.62. Don't ask.... Just watch out for pickup trucks...

trekkiehead

Bought mine for $ 18,100 + $ 300 tax in Columbia, SC. Had it shipped via US Gov't to Darmstadt, Germany. Seemed like a good deal at the time. Well, got it up to 120 mph on the autobahn. Since the girl friend was with me, had to back off before the limiter cut in. 2,000 miles on it. Want a nightmare? Girl friend's 5 yr old son got car sick in the back seat going to Rothenberg. Now I carry a bucket. Questions: how do you disable the auto air conditioning when you switch ventilation to the windshield defrost? Anyway to disable the rev limiter after warranty is over? Where's a good ecu chip for the 2002 Si?

ranald

I think it's still a good deal. Sorry to hear about the back seat, hope it washed out.

I don't know offhand how to stop the auto-AC-on, but I've seen it described. I have the same thing in my EX, but lately I've found having the AC on really does help in very humid conditions.

I've been following news related to the engine, I've been wanting an RSX for some time now. There's a company Hondata that is known for working with Honda ECU's, and they're hard at work. It seems this ECU is very different from previous Honda ECU's. They just released their first products for the K20 engine- it's an ECU reprogram that is supposed to increase power, and optionally can lower the VTEC engagement point and raise the fuel cutoff point. The one drawback is it's only available for the RSX-S right now. You can get more info at their website, www.hondata.com

anonymousposts

Congrats on the new SI netracer .. sounds like you did pretty good. What color did you buy?

trekkie: That's why I don't like kids being in my car .. they always find a way to mess something up Like ranald said I think there is a way to override the AC but it's really complicated and IMHO unnecessary. 99% of the time the AC needs to be on anyways.

jfigueroa1

This was posted some time ago i have not tried yet on my crv but i think i am going to try on my civic-2002 and see what happen

For those who do not know it, the a/c in the CR-V always comes on when the defrost is on. This we know will clear the moisture, but you can't turn off the A/C. A guy by the name Haverson over at the CR-V forums at Hondasuv.com posted a way to turn the A/C on or off-your choice. I will repeat it here.
To deactivate the automatic a/c feature on the 2002 CR-V
1) Turn vehicle off.
2) Turn fan knob off.
3) Turn temperature knob all the way to the left (blue area).
4) Turn vent knob to panel only setting (next to a/c max).
5) Hold down both the air re circulation button and a/c button while starting the car.
6) Continue holding for 7 seconds until the air re circulation button stops flashing.
Now the a/c button can be turned on or off.

To reactivate automatic a/c feature on 2002 CR-V
1) Turn vehicle off.
2) Turn fan knob off.
3) Turn temperature knob all the way to the left (blue area).
4) Turn vent knob all the way to the right (defrost position)
5) Hold down both the air re circulation button and a/c button while starting the car.
6) Continue holding for 7 seconds until the air re circulation button stops flashing.

Greetings from sunny Miami.

kheggan

I looked at this message board for CivicSi info. It really helped a ton! I bought a black '02 Si last week in the Philly area. Dealer sold it to me for 16,600....so with tax, tags and everything it was 17,100.

I went online and was approved for a loan within 30 minutes....they then sent me a blank check to write to the dealer....this is a great way to go. I used peoplesfirst.com, but I'msure there are others.

The car is quicker than I thought it would be, handles well and feels very solid.....

jfigueroa1

Well guys, I could tell you that the trick for the a/c worked just fine. Now in the mornings in my way to work to get rid of lil fog I could use the defog mode with the a/c (compressor) off without sacrificing mpg or fuel in that matter.
Actually on step #5 you do not have to start the car you could just turn the key to II that is right before you energized the starter.
Greetings from sunny Miami.
v/r
fig.

hatch5

One dealer in LA advertised SIs for 13,999.
I requested its internet manager to give me a quotation and I got 18,127! Very disappointing.

Is there anybody who was able to get advertised price with no problem?
How does it work ? Since I have very bad experience with sales man before, I do not want to go to car dealers to negotiate the price.

Thanks

anonymousposts

That price coulda been a typo in which case the dealer is not liable for it.

crikey

...could be the old bait and switch at work.

crikey

In the paper, a local dealer advertised $16,990 + TTL(which is still high considering the deals other people are getting). Much like hatch5, I also sent an email to the internet manager and got a quote of $17,302 + TTL. Advertised price never equals the price dealer is actually selling it for. Stupid dealer tricks!

anonymousposts

I think a price of $13,999 is obviously a typo unless the car was a demo. Same thing happened here this weekend .They had the SI advertised for $14,999 and an EX next to it for $16,588 so obviously they mixed up the prices. So sometimes there are honest mistakes in the ads.

revdrluv

Motortrend says honda is partly blaming the sales failure of the Si on the fact that the competitors offer more hp. So I guess there is talk of bringing the civic type-r over as a SI-R and selling it for much less than the RSX type-s that has the same hp. Acura said OK to this also.

A type-r for si money? Count me in.

gee35coupe

Is really not accurate. Honda brought over 15,000 Si's. They simply overestimated how many people actually wanted one. Those who actually want one will get he spoils of that mistake. I'll bet the 2003 Si will be much harder to find.

si2002owner

What I've experienced so far is:
an overall average of 28.01 miles per gallon, with 6500 miles driven.
with a VERYY conservative driving, I get about 34 mpg on highway, and close to 30 on city with ac off. When driving faster on city, shifting at 5000-6000 rpms, drops to a mere 23 mpg.

zx63

Where in Philly did you buy yours? I'm going to buy one if I can get the same type of deal you did or less. I sent an email to a local dealer (I'm in West Chester) and he quoted me $17,302. I emailed him back and counteroffered, but haven't heard back. What are you telling these guys to get these good prices?

anonymousposts

At just over 4000 miles I am averaging 30MPG which is achieved at an average speed of around 60-65 with minimal stop and go and the occasional lead foot. It seems like the engine and tranny just keep getting smoother as the miles go by.

kheggan

I bought it at Main Line Honda in Ardmore.

Without tax and tags it was 16,695....

I printed out the prices from this website (even though prices may vary geographically) and brought them in with me....that saves haggling time.

I think it also helped that I had a blank check from peoplesfirst.com.

I told him if he can get me into that car for 17K (including everything:tx and tags) then we have a deal.

I settled for 17,174....

Still 1,200 under invoice (plus they threw in floormats).

There is another Honda dealer in Phillyalong Essington ave that you may want to try.

Good luck, let me know if you get one. The car rides great....suspension is nice and tight....

himiler

Damn! $1200 under invoice? Nice score on that one.

crikey

I was offered similar by another dealer: $16,999 + tax, tag, fees, etc. I hope you don't mind, but I used your technique: get me into that car for 17K (including everything:tx and tags) then we have a deal. -- out the door

Hope I get the same results as you did.

jvkalra

OK, so the Si is a sales flop, so Honda is supposed to bring one in with more HP?

I don't think MOST young people (Honda's target for the Si) want a 2 door hatch with lots of horsepower and a manual transmission priced at $19K+.

IMHO, what would sell like hotcakes is the 5 door Civic that Honda markets in Japan and Europe. But Honda is probably paranoid about selling a 5 door in the US, even though times have changed. Anyone for a boring Civic sedan with a trunk?

anonymousposts

Maybe Honda was listening to all the people who wanted a loaded SI version of the 96-00 hatchback. Where they messed up is determining how many people wanted them. The car is not a flop by any means .. it's just not as hot as the 99-00 SI's were because more people want a coupe than a hatch. They would also sell alot more if it were offered in an automatic .. but that would sacrifice the character of the car IMO.