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Comments
As far as the LS and GS being perfect companions, I can't say I really understand. They don't complement each other, they each have the exact same purpose. One is a mid level luxury sedan and one is a high level luxury sedan. Neither are fun to drive. (although I've only driven the GS)
To me this sounds kind of like buying an ES300 and a loaded Camry. That said, if you are really into luxury cars, (which I guess you must be) then it's a different story.
1). I can't stand Honda salesmen. I feel like slapping an "I am an Idiot" sticker to their forehead as soon as they start talking. I figure they are told the cars will sell themselves and to just jack around the customer to get the highest price.
2). I am an impulsive person and if I like something I just go and get it. I am afraid this will happen again and be at problem 3.
3). I don't even have one yet and already suffering (pre)buyer's remorse knowing I paid 4-5 thousand dollars more for the same car someone paid 14.5 k for back in December (left-over '02s). Plus I know the prices will drop once the '04s come out and kick myself for not listening to my own reasoning.
anonymousposts Aug 28, 2002 11:30pm
I already have had offers of $9,000 from a people that have bought cars from me. I hadn't even gotten it home to clean it. Yesterday we spent 2-3 hours detailing it. Looks like new now. It's gold two-tone over ivory leather.
Compliments my LS in that I can drive the GS everyday comfortably. The LS feels too large to drive every day so they don't have the same purpose to me. The dash in the GS is lower than the Civic and it has all the luxury feature I need. If I pay the same amount per month that I was paying for the Civic I'll have it paid off(never happen) in less than 2 years. Realistically I'm probably gonna have it for about 7-9 months or until the next "great deal" comes along.
Which brings me to the real reason I got rid of the Civic....I am very fickle. And you can't do that with new cars. I like having the option to get another car every 4 months or so. If I buy older cars at wholesale prices I can have a new (to me) car as often as I want. Like I can buy the ES300 that you referred to right now for $9000. It's a 98' with 87,000 miles. If has a few scratches but no accident history and would retail around $14,000. I just wanted the GS cause it was RWD. Camrys are a dime a dozen.
C) If you "need" luxury features, what drew you to the Si in the first place?
It was hers. She wanted it. Like the 03 Accord is now.
Don't need em. But at the $5500 price point they are nice if they can be expected to have reasonable reliability. Lexus in #1 in long term reliability.
"1). I can't stand Honda salesmen."
Which ones _can_ you stand?
I'm sorry, I'm weak, and couldn't resist. ;-)
About the impulsiveness: Any chance your wife could restrain you if you were to bring her along? You could give her the checkbook with strict instructions. . .
We really need to get you into one of these for a test drive, Jim.
The Si is said to be the most European in character of any car Honda has ever sold in the USA. I'll bet you'll like it. Whether you'll want to buy one is another matter, but I suspect you'll be pleasantly surprised.
If price is the only real issue, there are still '02s out there. Granted, that would require some extraordinary effort on your part to travel to a distant dealer and drive the car home. I'll bet your teenagers would love to accompany you and share driving chores. It would be excellent for break-in. It would be an Adventure!
If you're interested, there's a local dealer that still showed four '02 Si's in stock when I checked yesterday.
"Overall my dad and I were very impressed with Honda service."
Your experience mirrors ours. We've purchased five Hondas over the years, and quality service is one of the reasons why we have. Honda Corporation takes customer satisfaction VERY seriously. If only more manufacturers would do likewise. (Our recent Mazda purchase was a delight. Some others are beginning to catch on.)
I don't mean to pry, but is this Si your family's first Honda purchase?
"Ah, Lucas electrics - Lighting by the Prince of Darkness."
<LOL!>
Lucas, whose motto is: "Home before dark!"
For those of you wondering what we're talking about, Lucas was (still is?) the principal supplier of electrical components to the British car industry. They had, shall we say, an "unenviable" reputation. Their strengths did not include durability, reliability, and, well...
You wrote:
"Yes, yes, yes - Honda make a low tech, cheapo two seater. 1200 lbs, 80 bhp, $10K!"
I give up. What is it? You don't mean a bike, do you? That wouldn't be low tech.
I guess I'm getting a little bored with my '93SI and just want something new. Cost is a major factor so maybe I should take your advice. To replace the motor in mine with a B18C will cost around $5500 and to build up the D16Z6 to its max potential will cost about the same, I,H,E, camshaft, valves, pistons, flywheel, etc. in addition to having to use premium gas forever. Maybe I'll drive one this week and really work myself up
P.S. I MISS MY CAR ;-) this 99 accord is no
fun :-(
"My only guess is that while the car was sitting on the dealer's lot, someone busted out driver's side window and stole the seats."
That's a shame. I'd be upset, too. And I agree with the others that this is worth pursuing.
"Stuff" like this shouldn't happen. To me, the worst of it wasn't the original theft, but the subsequent apparently fraudulent misrepresentation by the dealer.
Are you SURE that only the seats were affected? I mean, you cannot readily trust the dealer to reveal if there was other damage, can you? They've already "lied" to you once through omission.
River's point about the wiring and potential electrical system problems sounds valid. I've read that just connecting electrical test equipment requires extraordinary care on modern cars lest the CPU be zapped through the system.
You wrote:
"I just think if the dealer told me that this one has been vandalized, i would have asked for a different car."
I wouldn’t have bought it, not without a substantial additional discount, and written assurances of extended warranty coverage to repair future problems that might arise from the as-yet unseen damage that might have been wrought when the seats were “ripped out.”
Your confidence and peace-of-mind have been damaged now, not just the car.
I wish I could be more helpful.
Let us know how this works out, won’t you?
LOL, no, I don't mean a bike. I'm thinking about something like a TR3 or MG Midget for the new millenium. No power nothing, except perhaps for a radio, wipers, and perhaps a heater blower. No soft nothing in the passenger compartment, except for the seats. Maybe even side curtains in the place of windows. Give it a bulletproof Honda 4 cyl engine (1200 cc's oughta do it) and a 5 speed manual and rear wheel drive. Stamped steel wheels big enough and wide enough and pretty enough to look good painted black. Forget power steering, power brakes, AC. Maybe even forget a top; make a tonneau cover standard. Build it to sell at 10K and to be owner serviceable. This could be done!
Best bud drove a Bugeye Sprite ('till a big pickup drove right over him, ouch!). LOL, every two weeks he used silicon jelly to seal his distributer. Lucas electrics, electronics for those afraid of electricity. Power for the dark ages.
Length: 196.7 vs. 194.9
Width: 71.7 vs. 70.7
I knew it!
In either case, I say: “You betcha’.”
I’ve been meaning to respond to your comments; sorry to take so long.
You have a heavily modified 944?
MMMMM. . . Can I come over to play?! :-)
You have nice cars; I share your enthusiasm for German engineering, though my experience is limited to GTIs. The Germans make very driver-oriented, performance machinery.
I’d be interested in your take on the current Si if you’ve test-driven it.
Your observation about Civics having a lot of competition these days is right on the mark. It’s great for consumers.
I think we have some of the finest automotive choices throughout the price range for “enthusiasts,” as I can recall in a very long time. These are good times for us all! :-)
You wrote:
“I still haven’t decided if I want to get one of these new Si’s though, the ‘92 has been 100% reliable and no matter how hard I drive it I always get 32-35 mpg.”
Despite what others may have written, I’d be very surprised if your overall mpg figures exceeded ours by a significant margin. We’ve averaged 26.77 mpg so far. (See my recent post on this.)
I suspect you’ll find this new Si quite a bit different from your old one. And, again, I’d be very interested in reading your comments should you test-drive one.
You wrote:
“If the current Si had the 197 HP engine, 6-speed, and 17” wheels for the same MSRP it might be a hot item.”
I know. Arguable, though, it’s already here, isn’t it? Doesn’t Honda call that the RSX-S? Albeit at a higher price.
I don’t know. Sounds odd, perhaps, but I, like Jim, have my limits, and I was afraid I’d be too tempted by the RSX-S --- and never even went to see those, never mind drive them. I’ve got this “thing” about $20K --- it’s enough, already! There are other things we need and want, and, well
You wrote:
“Anyway, if I decide to get a new Si I won’t be waiting for the Type R, as much as I’d like to have one. The price will be too high and the cut-rate deals on price and financing we have now most surely won’t be around forever.”
Yessir, I agree.
Drive the current Si --- this sucker is QUICK! Where you goin’ in such a hurry, anyway, that this ain’t quick enough? Yes, even on those wee little wheels and tires. . .
And:
“If you were Honda, and you saw how poorly the current Si is selling... would you risk bringing the Type R here? I don’t think so.”
I hear you. Good points all. And yet. . . if it were ME (since you asked ;-), I think I WOULD bring over the Type R, precisely because of the failure of the current model to sell. What have I got to lose? The Type R is available, and I might as well see if maybe THIS ONE will sell. If not, then I’ll abandon the whole idea.
My biggest problem would then be how I priced the RSX-S.
It’s a problem.
It’ll be interesting to see what Honda does.
But, what do I know? Crystal-ball speculation is fun, though, isn’t it?
One of the other fellows has noted that he suspects Honda will just the drop the Si altogether after the ’93 model year. Good point. Just an extension of your good points, don’t you think?
So, if that proved to be true. . . would you still think the current Si at $18.5K is too much? If you kept it for 170K miles. . .
“’Yes, yes, yes - Honda make a low tech, cheapo two seater. 1200 lbs, 80 bhp, $10K!’
LOL, no, I don't mean a bike. I'm thinking about something like a TR3 or MG Midget for the new millenium.”
Of course.
You’ll have to excuse me. I misunderstood you entirely. I mentally “inserted” an “s” in “Honda make(s) ”
I thought you were declaring that Honda _already made_ such a car. I’ve been wracking my poor brain ever since trying to figure out what car this is.
But, to pursue what you _did_ say: Yes! Maybe a Lotus 7 by Honda for the new millennium. Cool!
You wrote:
“No power nothing, except perhaps for a radio, wipers, and perhaps a heater blower.”
“Perhaps...?”
Umm. . . River? May I be _assured_ of wipers, please? I like wipers. I need wipers. :-)
You wrote:
“Build it to sell at 10K and to be owner serviceable. This could be done!”
I wonder. I assume you mean “owner serviceable” as in the “good old days?” Could such technology meet today’s emissions and SAFETY requirements? I don’t know. I’m asking.
“Actually kauai215, I’m not real fond of ANY salesman, be it car, computer, stereo, camera, whatever. I usually end up explaining the virtues of the product to the salesman ”
Oh, yes. It’s so exasperating, and and and. . . I have to stop. Not good for the blood pressure. ;-)
We went shopping last weekend. I was looking at a Leica M7 and a Nikon F100 at a specialty camera shop. And, never mind. . .
You know exactly what I encountered.
On the way home M. said to me, not for the first time, “You always know far more than the sales people.” We agreed that, for that and the other things we went shopping for, it had been a most dissatisfying experience. (We haven’t been shopping in the metro area in some time.) She said, “I’m very content to stay home and shop at L.L.Bean and other places on the phone and on the ‘Net.” Yep.
Still, my friend, you cannot mail-order an Si. Pity, though, eh? Soon, perhaps.
If you do go test the Si, come and share your thoughts, won’t you?
Also, should you test one, attend to the steering. It’s not bad, mind you. Both you and “Tom/944s2” might be especially sensitive to the dead on-center feel.
One gets accustomed to it over time, but it’s one of my criticisms of this car. It’s not perfect. But you two guys might find it especially irksome. There may be solutions to the problem, though.
But then, what is perfect? That we’re willing to pay for, that is? :-)
It is possible, though, that you’ve found one of those exceptional Honda dealers who will give you service exceeding your expectations. I hope so.
You know, it’s interesting, but there is not always a direct correlation between Sales and Service at any given dealer. A poor sales department does not necessarily mean a poor service department. The Sales dept. at “our” Honda dealer has declined recently, so much so that we don’t plan to buy another Honda from them. But if we need service, we’ll take our Honda (wherever purchased) back to their service department, because it’s run by a guy I trust, and has a number of mechanics I trust, not least of whom was a former Trans-Am Crew Chief --- a very good guy. (Those who live in the Milwaukee, WI area may contact me for specifics.) They don’t lie to me, and they don’t try to cheat me. Then again, they hardly ever see me. (Oh, hell. It’s David Hobbs Honda. You DID want to know, right? ;-)
(Yes. THAT David Hobbs, for those wondering --- the famous Brit racing driver, and now TV-racing-commentator.)
Something you might find useful about how we view the auto shopping experience: We’re not marrying the sales staff --- we’re marrying the car, the machine. In other words, we don’t let the jerks (as the case may be) stand between us and the fine machine we want. To heck with them. Buy the machine. You’ll never see the sales staff again.
Then again, we’ve always treated the sales staff with dignity and respect, and we’ve generally had good results, with some noteworthy exceptions, as previously noted.
Salespeople have a right to earn a living, too, you know. And there are some good ones out there.
You wrote:
“P.S. I MISS MY CAR ;-) this 99 accord is no fun :-( “
Seeee. . . not all machinery is created equal. And money alone is not the only issue.
A less-expensive Si may prove to be much more satisfying than the more expensive sedan. It’s character and nature is very different. The driving experience is wholly different, right?
That’s neither good, nor bad. It just is. Different!
I’ll take the Si, thank you. “Different strokes,” as they say. Cars are not just “cars.”
Are you a Driver?! ;-)
You wrote:
“Ok, sorry for the long post, but that’s the story.”
No, no, no! NEVER apologize for taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences. I don’t speak for anyone but myself, my young friend, but your detailed posts have been substantive, meaningful, and thus. . . useful. USEFUL! You follow?
It's the DETAILS about how, when, where, why, etc. that help me, your reader, to understand whether your experience and your views are meaningful to ME.
That takes some writing, some explaining.
The stereotypical Internet one-liner posts are almost invariably useless. What’s worse, they’re typically just a product of smart-aleck, testosterone-driven, young-male-behavior writers, engaging in one-upmanship behavior. Everything is a macho competitive event for them. And a waste of time for the rest of us.
There is nothing useful to read in their useless nonsense.
Most of the Internet posts are a vast wasteland, just a sorry reflection of our increasingly uncivil, ignorant, and declining culture.
You, doorstopdriver, took the TIME of your life, and made an EFFORT to share something useful so that we might truly UNDERSTAND --- something WE could CONNECT WITH. Now, that made it useful. To us, your readers. You follow?
And “long?” This is Kauai you’re talkin’ to here. Mine’s longer than yours. <heh>
Oh, and I noticed your writing seems better in recent posts. When you take the trouble to write better, you show your readers a sign of consideration and respect. I see the effort. Thank you, from this reader.
Good job. :-)
Yep, the electronic power steering is weird. You do (I did) get used to it; LOL, not in the bad way you get used to a headache. And, yes, the Si is 'different' feeling altogether. Tight body, quiet engine, smooth, etc. make you think you're not really doing anything when you actually are. And, then it looks a soccer Mom's minivan from Lilliputia. It's a weird little car.
A guy in an older domestic land yacht tried to follow me through some tight S curves last night. LOL, his head lights were all over the road. And, he ended up about 50 yards further behind me than where he started.
"Wipers? We don't need no stinking wipers." LOL. I agree, wipers on the Lotus 7 for 2.003K would be a good idea. Well, on user serviceable I mean essentially modern Si serviceability. The only thing the schedule calls for that I'd feel like I'd want a mechanic for is the valve lash - scheduled for 100+K.
Mail order - You can almost mailorder, LOL, using the internet. Some of those internet sales managers simply drop the sales hooey and get real from the first bell. It's a shame, though; you do need to pick the car up at a dealer and watch your P's & Q's.
I'm not as forgiving as Kauai (read me as "Sales tactics reek of disgusting dishonesty"), but leaving 'tude at home is absolutely right. Treat the 'sales experience' as a karmic exercise in keeping your dignity under adverse circumstances. Beam benevolence like you would with your neighbor's foul tempered dog. It goes smoother that way; and, after all, you get to drive off in a cool car.
"Never wrestle with a pig. All you get is dirty, and the pig likes it." Mark Twain
I apologize. 'Twasn't very respectful to hope you weren't you, which is one way to take my comment.
Kauai - ima take a guess and say you're either a teacher or a guidance counselor. And I mean that in the best possibly way, thanks for the thoughtful and complete post. If you're not a teacher of counselor, then lol maybe you should look into that. I'm really not fond of the counselors at my school, too involved in the trying to push and prod the kids who don't care to give a hoot about those of us that really do care. Regardless, thanks again for your post.
A question for everybody - how many people have come up to you totally knocking your Si? This hasn't happened to me once yet - on the contrary I've gotten numerous nods from other drivers and quite a few comments of approvals from the opp. sex. ;-). Its just that online, I've read myriads of message boards knocking everything about the Si. From the lack of power to the steering/handling to the looks, they seem to love to hate this car. I see exactly what Honda was doing. For those of us that like a hot hatch like the GTI (the car I originally wanted), but don't want to pay for the poor mileage and PREMIUM GAS, we have the opportunity of the Si. I think its fast enough for me, and plan to possibly get some bigger rims when I stumble on someones lost leather pocket containing many green slips of paper. (read: miraculously finding money) I also think its a cute little egg, but looks are always subjective.
One more quickie. What is a CAI going to do to the life of my engine. I would think it would actually make it last longer (possibly ?) because of the cold air that would constantly clean it....but then this could have the adverse effect. Roll with me here, I'm not that knowledgable on the mecanics of cars. Thanks in advance for any input.
I really enjoy reading everyone's comments. Had a major surprize today, my boss said we are actually getting bonus checks. SO...We'll see.
CAI will not hurt anything. I haven't seen one yet for this engine, just the short ones that face backwards. Cold air ones reach all the way to the front near the ground. Think of it a having to run with your mouth closed and then running with it opened. Your engine will feel much better and reward you with a little more power and noise when you punch it. Of course, you may wind up driving faster to exploit this new-found freedom. Before you ask, it won't affect the warranty.
“The only 02-03 SI I've seen outside of the dealership is at my son's high school. I talked to my son today about me possibly getting one, he drives a souped up '91 Integra. He thought I'd lost it. His quote " they're big, slow and ugly". Yikes.”
That’s funny. Thanks for the good laugh! :-)
And:
“At least I wouldn't have to worry about him stealing it.”
Exactly! No “Ferris Beuller’s (sp?) Day Off” nightmares. What more could any parent ask for?
This could offer Honda an excellent new marketing strategy: “Parents! Want a performance car your teenage drivers will shun? Step right this way folks and examine the Civic Si!” And so on
“I apologize. 'Twasn't very respectful to hope you weren't you, which is one way to take my comment.”
<LOL!>
River, I do enjoy your contributions. You have a knack for putting a delightful twist on some things that just makes me laugh. You have a wonderfully warped perspective at times --- very creative!
You’re a good-hearted fellow, River.
And a gentleman, I might add. :-)
-Kauai (who only wishes he could do what you do so effortlessly)
“Kauai - ima take a guess and say you're either a teacher or a guidance counselor. And I mean that in the best possibly way, thanks for the thoughtful and complete post. If you're not a teacher of counselor, then lol maybe you should look into that.”
I’m not, but it’s very kind of you to suggest that I might be. That’s one of the nicest things anyone has said to me in some time. Thank you, doorstopdriver. :-)
And:
“I'm really not fond of the counselors at my school, too involved in the trying to push and prod the kids who don't care to give a hoot about those of us that really do care.”
That is a very astute observation. You are not only a pleasant young man, but an observant, insightful, and intelligent one as well. ;-)
Your implicit criticism of your school counselors is right on the mark, and I agree with you completely.
One closing thought (I could go on about this interesting issue, but we need to return to the topic of the Honda Si): It behooves each student to become a good consumer of his own education --- not unlike buying your new Honda, right?
You wrote:
“I wasn't saying at all that I totally dispise all salesman.”
Of course. I didn’t think you did. I wanted to encourage you and others to refuse to allow unpleasant salespeople to deter you from getting the product you want.
Sometimes there’s only one dealer for the product one wants, and the salespeople may be awful. As much as I hate rewarding bad behavior with a sale, the alternative --- allowing the salespeople to _prevent_ me from getting what I want --- is even more unacceptable.
I’m glad to see you found both a good Honda sales department and a good service department. Of the two, the latter is far and away the more important.
You wrote:
“Its just that online, I've read myriads of message boards knocking everything about the Si. From the lack of power to the steering/handling to the looks, they seem to love to hate this car.”
Yes. It’s ridiculous, isn’t it? You will see this regrettable propensity to “love to hate” things wherever you go and throughout your life. If it isn’t the Si, it’ll just be something else, won’t it?
That’s just how some people are --- they take delight in the misery of others, and they like nothing so much as to contribute to that misery. If you’re not currently miserable, they’d like to change that. Some people just aren’t happy unless they’re raining on someone else’s parade.
You may be tempted to engage these people in argument. May I suggest that it would be futile and pointless? Since they’re irrational, you cannot appeal to their reason.
And, again, they’re unpleasant people. Why would you want to reward them with your time and attention? I recommend you steer clear of such people. They are vexations to the spirit, and your life will be the better for avoiding them. (Did he just say “vexations?” ;-)
And about the GTIs: They, too, are excellent cars --- we’ve owned two of them over the years. But if someone were to offer to trade me even-up, a GTI for our Si... I’d gratefully decline. I’d be afraid the ownership dues would be too high over the long run. And driving satisfaction in the Si is about as fine as I’ve ever enjoyed. I’ll keep our Si, thank-you-very-much.
Personally, I don’t much care how the Si appears to others. We like it well enough. Cars are not status symbols for us. From the only vantage point that matters to me --- the driver’s seat --- I can’t see it at all! <heh>
It’s good to have so many fine choices in cars to choose from these days. Since you cannot afford to buy one of each, you had to pick just one.
You picked a good one.
Fear not, my young friend. You’ve purchased an excellent automobile, at an astonishingly good price. And I think it’s safe to bet that the more you drive it, the more you’ll appreciate it and be inclined to declare, “I am so glad I bought this Si, and not one of the other cars!” You bought the car that was right for you.
Right?
Okay, then! ;-)
Now, may I humbly suggest you enjoy your splendid new machine, and don’t bother wasting any more of the precious time of your life reading and listening to the naysayers. There are far better things for you to be doing.
Like. . . maybe going to the library and bookstores and finding books on autocrossing! Now, _there’s_ good reading, well worth your time. It’s an inexpensive, safe, and fun way to learn to drive your exciting new car.
And if this looks fun to you, DO NOT MODIFY THE CAR! Not until you know what classification your mods will bump your car into. Serious go-fast hardware is not necessarily the same as appearance-hardware. Hold off on the mods temporarily.
An excellent book that I can recommend is “Secrets of Solo Racing (Expert Techniques for Autocross and Time Trials),” by Henry A. Watts. $14.95 ISBN 0-9620573-1-2
Thanks for the tip on the radio. I’m going to make a point of regularly checking the individual speakers.
You wrote:
“...thanks again for your post.”
You’re welcome. It’s a pleasure chatting with you. :-)
I was looking at the D100 also. I seem to have missed out on a whole generation of cameras, I still use a manual focus F3 and manual everything 1957 Canon screw-mount with Nikon and Leica lenses. If a store is selling these new $2,000 super cameras, the M7 and D100, with incompetent sales staff, they don't deserve my business. The same applies to Honda salesmen who don't know the specs of the products they are selling on commission.
To everyone - Please be aware that our Town Hall policy requires that you have a valid email address in your user profile. Also, your email address is private (by default), so other members will not see it, unless you want them to. Okay?
Btw, great discussion everyone, and thanks for not veering off topic too much.... And now back to the subject of the Honda Civic Si/ Sir. Thanks for your participation!
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
Jim, I was wondering if you could go into more detail about your post. For right now the car is staying the way it is, but I might seriously look into getting a CAI or other form of intake. The CAI could damage the engine if it takes in water, so i'm looking for other ideas. Could you possibly suggest a few "relatively" inexpensive items I might want to look into. I've heard that a less restrictive exhaust will be around $600. This is _not_ inexpensive for me. At least right now. Also, other than the change in sound, are these things going to create a noticable difference in the way the car runs. I'm not looking to make a race car out of an Si, just throwing around some ways to make it even more fun to drive. Thanks. Oh and by the way, what's the insurance on your son's integra. That was another plus of getting the Si, insurance the same as any civic. I had looked at a used 97 GSR, but the insurance was way outa line.
kauai - thanks so much for the very important advice on life. It's true, there will always be people whose main goal in life is to hate what you love. I've stopped worrying about it. ;-). I mean - coming from parents who were always adamantly against buying their son a car - let alone letting him pay for one himself, it was nothing sort of a miracle that I got a car in the first place, let alone a high performance _new_ car such as the Si. Needless to say I'm EXTREMELY happy. I'm also the type of person that strives to do the best he can with everything. If, as jim pointed out, this engine is modfriendly and has been (in his very poignant words...lol jk) "de-tuned" and "choked off," it's almost as if I feel a need to make it the best it can be. So, as I asked jim, any suggestions from you?
I thought to close this post I'd just give a little run down of the other cars I looked at before deciding on purchasing the Si - for any of you who are still vacillating on just which car to marry (er...pick). So, I first went to autotrader and looked around at used GTIs and Integras. My parents wanted me in a new car if at all possible (a used car is someone else's old problems in their opinion. I don't think I agree). I did find a base RSX on autotrader for 13,5 with 11k miles. Probably had been in an accident I thought. Then the car shopping came and I decided on a hatchback for the storage reasons because I'm always taking my drum set everywhere. The GTI became too expensive, especially with the ownership dues, and the Ford Focus SVT was retracted solely due to the unreliability stereotype of Fords. Nissan SE-R Spec V was looked at for its power, but insurance caused that one to lose the race. All in all, the Si had everything I was looking for, just was a little lacking on power. Unfortunately, with the type R only gracing streets accros the pond, there was no other option. Upon getting the Si, there's nothing I wouldn't change except the engine. That's it, absolutely nothing else. Maybe put in an RSX type S swap, but I've no clue as to how much that would end up costing. Anyone wanna venture a guess? Hope this has helped anyway contemplating buying the Si. If the power its gives is substancial for what you'll be using it for, then there is no reason, especially with the low prices, not to purchase one.
hehehe, teenager ranting above ;-) aight, time to beat up some chemistry. Later.
I think the insurance on the Integra is about 900/yr. The whole insurance bill doubled by adding that car and my son's license.
Be warned. Engine mods are addictive and can be hazardous to your financial well-being. I'm looking to either put in a more aggressive camshaft and adjustable timing gear or swap to a bigger engine. Before doing the one mod I had driven the car for 150,000 miles bone stock and was perfectly happy, except always being passed by packs of cars on the interstate. Now it's different. It's like when you first discover girls. Whole new horizons open up. Maybe I'll buy an almost new D16Z6 that someone swapped out and rebuild it in the garage. My wife would LOVE that. Enjoy your car. You take care of it and you will be rewarded by having a superior piece of engineering ready to do whatever you ask.
so now you can e-mail me and yell me about what was wrong with my post #2055. :rollseyes:
Back on topic I still love my si.
I just orderd my AEM CAI and will be installing this week end and will let ya'll know how it goes...if it doesnt get deleted
The Si may be a "detuned" RSX-S engine, but that doesn't mean you can just throw some mods on the Si and end up with the same power. The compression ratio on the Si is much lower (allowing it to run on regular gas) so doing something like changing cams isn't going to give you the same result as it would on the RSX-S engine. The Si as currently tuned seems like a very good combination of performance with decent torque across the rpm band.
In my 40+ years of playing with cars it has been my experience that the advertised claims of high performance manufacturers rarely, if ever, pan out. Most engine mods will do virtually nothing for power, and many of them can actually cut power, especially badly designed exhaust systems.
As for the Si needing nothing besides a different engine... what about the tiny wheels and tires? The best thing you could do for this car is replace the mediocre factory tires, or preferably move up to 17s. The difference would be like night and day, and make it much more enjoyable. The engine in my Porsche is bone stock, but I have heavily modified the suspension and braking systems for improved track performance. If I buy one of these Si's the first thing I will do is upgrade the wheels and tires... because frankly, as equipped from the factory the car looks kinda dumb to me... like a cheap mini minivan.
Enjoy your Si everyone. I may succumb to the urge too.
We went to a bigger wheel and tire combo on one of our GTIs. We put very attractive, classic BBS gold-center wheels with very low-profile tires on our black GTI. It was a knockout. Sure looked great.
These new wheels and tires made for noticeably improved steering response. Turn-in was crisper and more precise, and transient response was improved. Overall grip (sticktion/gription ;-) in the dry was improved. It was excellent without being too nervous. We’d hoped for this, and it worked out. Sure looked great.
The unintended consequences:
(1) The ride deteriorated dramatically, becoming so harsh that we were unhappy on bu-bu-bumpy r-r-roads. That gets old after awhile. You start debating what routes to take based on road surface conditions. Sure looked great, though.
(2) The fatter tire footprint with this light car made driving in the wet much WORSE. Those meaty tires just got up on top of the water film and floated! And snow driving? Don’t ask. Sure looked great, though.
(3) The short sidewalls of the tires failed to protect the expensive rims. The wheels picked up a lot of serious dents on the lip of the rims. (Yes, we religiously kept the tire pressure up to specs; a bit higher, even. Of course, you know what that did to the already-too-harsh ride.) Driving, in the city especially, required undue focus and attention on the road surface immediately in front of the car. This promoted undue tension and distracted from more important issues of safe driving. While the dents in the wheel rims were severe, and an eyesore on close inspection, we lucked out and did not suffer perpetual slow air-pressure leaks. Others are not always so lucky. But every time we’d hit a pothole, we never knew if we now had a tire going flat on us because of a dented rim. Were we going to be walking home? Sure looked great, though.
(4) Wire-basket wheels are a bear to clean! One could spend as much time on the four wheels alone as it took to hand wash the entire remainder of the car. Sure looked great, though.
(5) This strikingly good-looking car succeeded in attracting undue attention from those who wanted wheels like that on their car --- our very wheels, in fact! One night they tried to steal our wheels. We hadn’t put wheel locks on them. Mistake --- or maybe not. Read on.
The thieves were apparently interrupted and left in mid-crime. . . after removing all the lug nuts. Now, the wheels are still on, just minus any lug nuts. You with me?
Right. Well, M. drives off in the morning and gets only about 100 yards at slow speed, thank goodness, and the left rear wheel passes her and takes off flying. The car falls onto the rear brake disk. Scared the <bleep!> out of her.
Took awhile to find that wheel; it was hiding in some shrubbery. The lug nuts were nowhere to be found.
No injuries to anyone, nor property damage, thank goodness.
We bought McGuard wheel locks. I cleverly hid the special tool to remove them.
Some months later, thieves struck again. They evidently respected the McGuards. They needed the tool. They reckoned it had to be in the car. And it was. They didn’t find it, but it wasn’t for lack of trying.
In the morning we found the lug nuts removed, all save for the McGuards; the door lock and body had been damaged when they’d broken in; the MOMO Jackie Stewart steering wheel was gone; the rear seat was gone (about $1200 for that stock seat); the trunk was messed up; and they’d rifled the glove box taking a few items.
All told, it would have been quite a bit cheaper for us and the insurance company had they just gotten away cleanly with the wheels without any struggle. <sigh>
Still had those wheels on that baby, though. And they still looked great, too.
(6) Our insurance company was tired of this. They put us into a high-risk group that cost exactly three times what we had been paying. . . and for less coverage to add further insult to injury.
(7) That car only had around 34,000 miles on it. We felt that car was targeted. We felt compelled to sell it. So we did. And when the buyer drove off in it. . . those wheels sure looked great.
We’re not doing that again.
Food for thought, perhaps.
But lots of people do that without regret.
And, to be fair, I think one can very likely avoid some of our grief with some of the better selections available today.
Although, I should tell you that when I sold our ’99 Si to a young fellow, an enthusiast like most of those folks reading in here, I asked him about his 17” rims that he’d put on his current Civic EX coupe.
“So, what do you think?” I asked him. “You plan to do the same to your new Si? Maybe put those nice 17” white-accented wheels from your EX on it?” He thought about it for a moment, and said, “No.” There are a lot of beat up roads around here. He didn’t think he’d do it. Not again. (Also, someone had already tried to steal his EX.)
Food for thought.
Postscript: Last time I saw our ’99 blue Si on the street, it had those cool 17” white-accented wheels on it.
Sure looked great! <LOL!>
Their new Si project car might interest you. I'd like to drive that one myself.
[That's all. Really. See? I can do it when I want to. <LOL!>]
“kauai215: Another excellent thoughtful post. I have to differ with you on the mods thought, however.”
I don’t disagree with you at all, Jim --- we’re in complete agreement. I was referring to _competition consequences_ for autocross racing. Only that SPECIAL circumstance, in the event doorstopdriver, or anyone else, was interested in autocrossing.
IF doorstopdriver is INTERESTED IN RACING in the SCCA Solo II autocross competition, or similar events, then he will be better served by TEMPORARILY postponing his modification plans until he learns more about the racing venue and exactly which modifications would best serve his racing needs and not end up putting him at a COMPETITIVE DISADVANTAGE by bumping him into a faster class that he would prefer not to be in.
His best chance at a trophy might be to compete in stock class, in the front wheel drive street tire group. That would probably be the sensible place to begin.
Different mods will bump him out of stock and into different classes. WHICH different class his modified car would go into would greatly affect his chances of being competitive and vying for a trophy. It’s important to take care which mods you choose.
Furthermore, some mods may “look” best for the street, but may not be the optimal choice for autocross. I recently read, for example, that the largest wheel and tire combo may not work as effectively as a smaller one. I know very little about these issues, so someone more knowledgeable than I could explain better. (944s2, maybe?) Apparently, many suspension systems are unable to keep those big, low-profile tires flat on the pavement under heavy cornering loads. The tires can actually get up on edge a bit, losing much of the contact with the ground. In such a case, a slightly smaller tire, with a more flexible sidewall might maintain better ground contact yielding superior cornering performance. The bigger wheel and tire combo may look the meanest, but the smaller one may perform better in the real world. That’s just one example. I suspect there are many others.
Autocross racing is done in ordinary street cars by many of the competitors. Many of the cars are box-stock. It’s probably the best way to start, in fact. The only thing you do is pump your tires way up.
Autocross is a timed motorsport event. One car at a time (no head-to-head racing here) is sent around a course defined by orange traffic cones in a very large parking lot, or something similar. Mall and stadium parking lots are often used. Max speeds typically are less than 60 mph. Generally, the course is run in second gear alone. Very likely you’ll be pushing redline in second at the fastest point in an Si with its short gearing, but you won’t have time to look at the tach. (Thank goodness for electronic rev limiters.) It’s just you and your car against the stopwatch. And against everyone else’s time, each in his turn. You’ll get multiple runs throughout the day.
Courses are typically a mix of fast and slow bits, but not so slow that you need to change down from second. They are very challenging, lest you think this sounds too Mickey-Mouse. Don’t kid yourself. This takes real skill, it’s fast, and it exploits your car to the maximum within the speed limitations I’ve mentioned. Lots of people spin out. It’s fast, you understand? It’s racin’, boy! ;-)
And the worst you can do, generally, is run over an orange cone or two. It’s safe. Far safer than the drive to and from the event, believe me. That’s where you REALLY need to be wearing your helmet.
Autocrossing is a wonderful sport and, I think, is an especially good avenue for young drivers such as doorstopdriver to hone their skills. They will be able to push their car to its physical limits, explore those limits and the limits of their driving talent. There is no finer way to learn to handle a car in a safe environment.
Do a web search for SCCA and autocross or Solo II. There’s a ton of material out there.
Cars are sensibly grouped in classes to promote fair competition. Additionally, there is a handicapping system to make for even more competition amongst the numerous and various different cars that often vary considerably in state of preparation.
If I’m in my stock Si, I should not have to compete directly with Jim in his fierce, hunkered down, fat-tired (race rubber no less!) heavily modified Si, that may be all but undriveable on the street these days, but man(!) is it ever quick at chasin’ cones. ;-)
It is very safe, and it is very inexpensive. Locally, it’s $35 per event, I think. It’s even cheaper if you join the SCCA. They typically have some loaner helmets. Usually, there will be some people to go around with you to help you learn. Just pump up your tires and show up on time.
That’s it. Just $35 --- for some of the best fun and instructive experience you’ll ever have in a car. You can buy your own helmet for around $80 on up. That’s all you need.
Oh, I should add, too, that the wear-and-tear on your car is minimal. Probably much less than drag racing with your friends on the street. You'll see a little extra wear on your tires, but that's about it, really.
I just cannot say enough to promote this wonderful opportunity for Si drivers, and all drivers, to get out and really learn to find the limits of your exciting and fun cars. And there are all kinds of cars competing, from the relatively exotic, to mundane sedans. Competitors’ ages range from pre-teen youngsters in racing karts, to retired folks in their Civic sedans.
Now, how much was it you were talking about spending? To do what, exactly? Go a little bit faster on the streets? How MUCH faster? Why? What for?
These are questions that I suggest you need to address, doorstopdriver, when considering how to spend your limited discretionary funds. What do you need? And what do you want. They’re not necessarily the same.
Don’t misunderstand. I’m not challenging you at all. No. I’m trying to help you see that there are a number of different paths to follow, and they each have different choices for mods.
So, doorstopdriver, when you ask me what I think about mods for your car, I need to ask you, "What do you want to do?"
All of the paths are equally valid. Because in the end it’s really just about personal preference and what will please YOU. Not me. Not Jim. Not 944. Just you. It’s your money, your car, and your pleasure.
So you ask what suggestions I have? I’m “philosophically inclined” to lean in 944’s direction. His ideas, his approach is much akin to mine. If I wanted a 200 hp Civic, I would not mod my Si --- I’d go buy an RSX-S. Or, better still, a Subaru WRX.
I’d be contented with that. But you, presumably, and a great many others would be discontented. You want something distinctively DIFFERENT. You don’t WANT to be driving the same thing everyone else in the herd is driving.
And your approach is every bit as valid as mine. No one approach has any speci
Me? I’m indifferent to such issues. I care more about how this machine I’m sitting in behaves. How does it handle, brake, steer, etc.? The changes I might make on a car, if I were inclined to spend extra money on it (I’m not), would begin with the driver interface: ergonomics. Steering wheel, shift knob and linkage, pedals and their proper placement for heel-and-toeing, and the seats. Beyond that, I’d focus on braking and handling issues that would markedly improve the overall “feel” for me.
The typical onlooker would never notice the changes I made.
But that’s me.
I suspect your concerns may lie elsewhere. And that’s just fine. All sorts of differing needs can be met and we can all be happy. Cars are a pleasure to us all.
And we can congregate here and, despite our differences, enjoy good conversation about our Si’s and the common pleasure we get from them.
Some specifics for you, doorstopdriver: You’ll want to decide whether your interests lie in the realm of ergonomics, appearance, drag racing, or road racing. And whatever else you can think of.
You’ll need to decide how fast you want to go, if you seek more than just appearance gains. And then you’ll need to look very closely at EXACTLY how much quicker you’re likely to be with the new components you’re contemplating. You might find that the actual performance improvements are modest relative to the cost, or they involve compromises in drive-ability or live-ability that you subsequently regret. Know what I mean?
A loud exhaust, for example, might be fun, but might also garner constant and repeated attention from the local Enforcers. Is it worth the potential hassle? A lot of this stuff looks and/or sounds really cool. “Awesome, dude!” But, you’re not going to get from here to there meaningfully quicker than me, you know?
If all you spend your money on is appearance gear, that’s just fine. Cars are about having fun and there’s nothing wrong with making a good impression for your home crowd.
You get to decide what’s fun for _you_. Spend wisely. ;-)
And Jim said:
“If you can be satisfied with the de-tuned, choked off, plain vanilla version for the general public, then it will work just fine in that mode.”
Errrm . . . right . . . I think.
Ours is a fine, de-tuned, choked off, SILVER vanilla version for the general public, that I’m happy to confirm works just fine in that mode. ;-)
My question is, what are legal ramifications, the dealer did not disclose that little piece of information when selling the car. I am in Connecticut. wondering if I should approach the dealer or honda america and see if i can get something for my "troubles" I just think if the dealer told me that this one has been vandalized, i would have asked for a different car.
At the vary least, the Si needs better tires. Honda really puts some lousy tires on all their cars at times. My '92 Si came with Bridgestone RE92s that were so bad in the rain the car was downright dangerous. IMO, the so-called "all season tires" do nothing excellent, and everything mediocre. For those of us that don't drive in snow and cold weather, a set of S-03s would do wonders for a new Si on the stock rims.