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Any non-destructive suggestions? I’m not keen on sanding and re-painting. It’s just the mirror, but still. . .
[ Note to Myself: Never, ever, leave pine sap to dry and harden on the paint again! ]
Tree sap - I use Turtle Wax Bug & Tar and Tree Sap Remover. Needless to say, it works a lot more easily on bugs and tar, LOL; but it won't harm the finish. Sap is the pits.
revka - thanks for the info. The only reason I was questioning was because of the post suggesting that TMV was influenced solely by dealer reports - which doesn't seem like a good idea.
Edmunds TMV may be an average price but it certainly not the lowest price.
“What sort of driving are you doing that gives you that 26.77 mpg? What's your driving style?”
Routine and unremarkable. If anything, we lean to the conservative end of the spectrum. We especially appreciate the new Si engine that has plenty of torque at low- and mid-range rpms, unlike our ’99 Si, which needed to be revved quite high to exploit its performance.
I recall a young employee at a dealership showing us his tricked-out Civic Coupe. He said to me, “I consider myself to be a Driver! I almost _always_ shift above 4000 rpm.”
I smiled agreeably, and thought to myself that I almost _never_ shift above 4000 rpm. We both drive in a style that would be likely to optimize fuel economy, typically shifting at 3000 unless needing to hurry up a bit.
Here’s something I wrote previously:
So far, we’ve averaged 26.77 mpg, using 400.6 gallons of fuel over 10,723 miles. We keep a “Gas Book” in the glovebox and log every gallon pumped, so this figure is accurate and reliable. Conditions: Conservative driving; a preponderance of highway miles mixed with a small amount of 25 mph shopping-trip-stuff in our small village. On the interstates we generally cruise around 70 mph, with occasional bursts to 85 mph when out in the passing lane --- to hurry up and get out of the way of the faster guys.
I should add one additional point that I’d forgotten about. In this area we are required to use “reformulated fuel” to assist in pollution reduction. I think they may make a change in the fuel during the winter months, but I can’t recall what it is. Perhaps someone could clarify that for me. Regardless, though, we don’t get any better economy in the cold months.
On occasion we fill up with non-reformulated fuel outside our area. I’ve never been able to discern any difference in the engine’s behavior or the car’s performance, nor have I seen any significant difference in the fuel mileage figures. On the other hand, I have seen a difference in the behavior of my powered lawn equipment, which clearly prefers non-reformulated fuel.
It may help to put things in perspective for you to know that we used to average a bit over 31 mpg overall in our previous Civic EX Coupes. Those cars were driven similarly. In both the ’99 Si and in this car, the fuel economy figures are appreciably lower.
The Si’s have been vaguely disappointing in this respect; I’d hoped for better.
I’m not at all surprised at your questioning me about our figures. They seem a bit low, don’t they? And, of course, you are absolutely correct to wonder about how the car is driven. I believe the driver makes a significant difference in the equation.
But then, we’re talking about 160 hp, not 125 hp, and the gearing is shorter on the Si’s, resulting in higher rpms cruising the highways. The ’99 Si was at 3900 rpm at 70 mph! I think the ’02 Si is at 3500 rpm at 70 mph. Those two points alone have got to cost something in fuel mileage vs. the EX Coupes.
After our first three Honda Civics, I had hoped for better fuel economy figures from our latest Si’s. On balance we’re happy with the trade-offs, and we accept these lower mileage figures as the dues we pay for the enhanced performance of the Si’s over the EX’s.
I suspect that the I-VTEC technology, which provides so much more performance down low in the rpm band, may be responsible for the low fuel economy figures, especially around town. I’m increasingly beginning to suspect that if the driving we do were confined to around-town stuff, the fuel figures would plummet.
“River,” one of the regulars in this discussion group, appears to drive in those conditions, and his fuel economy figures are _really_ surprising. Yet, when he finally got out of town, his mileage was excellent and what one might expect on the highway. “River” could tell you more about that.
At 2500 rpm this new Si engine feels like a V-6 when you open the throttle wide. If you haven’t driven this car yet, you’re in for a pleasant surprise. Thing is, though, V-6s tend to average around 22 mpg, or worse, in nothing but stop-and-go, around-town driving. Honda has given us a very sophisticated four-cylinder that behaves like a V-6 at low- to mid-rpms. It’s very impressive. But nothing’s free in this life, and the downside is increased fuel burned to gain that performance enhancement.
Maybe that’s the explanation. I’m just speculating here. What do I know? ;-)
What are everyone else’s thoughts on this?
If a buyer places a premium on fuel economy performance, then this latest iteration of the Si is probably not the best choice.
If you’re an “enthusiast” <heh>, you’re gonna love this thing! You get the performance of a small-displacement V-6, coupled with superior fuel economy, although not quite so good as a conventional four-cylinder. Maybe that’s a good way to look at this new Si?
One final point about our figures: I recorded a one-time, maximum mpg figure, so far, of 33.5 mpg. I filled the tank at mid-morning, drove the Interstate for about 190 miles over the next few hours (driver with one passenger), returned to the same gas station and the exact same fuel pump, and filled up again. Temperature and humidity remained fairly constant over this time period. This figure has to be considered suspect, obviously, because of the short duration. Apart from this one-time high, we seem to get around 30 mpg on highway trips.
Apart from the issue of our reformulated fuel, and its possible negative effect on fuel economy, I suspect our figures are a fair representation of what most folks might expect with the new Si if their driving style and conditions are similar to ours.
This has been an interesting exercise for me, trying to account for the fuel mileage figures of this latest Si. Writing this has helped focus my ideas.
I would be very interested in hearing others’ thoughts on my speculations, and what else they may have to add.
I hope my lengthy explanation has given you, Mapman, and others, sufficient information --- substance --- to judge how your Si might perform if you were to buy one.
As ever . . . your mileage may vary. :-)
If I can be of further help, feel free to ask.
It is odd that larger Honda fours seem to not do as well (versus the EPA ratings) as other cars. F'rinstance, my present car is rated at 19 city (which is pretty much where I do all of my driving), yet I consistently get 21.5 mpg.
I'm actually quite certain that the Civic Si is a fine car, and would serve well as a commuter with a little fun on the side. I seem to be having other automotive issues which are best not discussed here, as they would be a little OT.
By the way, are (or were) you a writer?
Thanks again for your response,
Mike
“That was more than I could ever hope for, kauai - thank you for that lengthy and considered response.”
You’re welcome. :-)
I try to put myself in my readers’ shoes and offer substantive responses that are genuinely useful. I persist despite the discomfort of some who, I suspect, would prefer that I abide by the unspoken “code” on the ‘Net that all responses be as brief as possible. They would have liked it better had I ended my post with the first sentence: “Routine and unremarkable.”
That would have been a “routine and unremarkable” response on the ‘Net. ;-)
But a terse and glib response such as that is generally worthless in my experience. It fails to inform.
As the reader of such a response I have no idea of the writer’s experience, never mind how I might relate it to mine. I’m unable to make any judgments, or draw any useful conclusions at all from such a brief response.
I noted your reference to the less-than-useful groups you’d visited in your quest for information on the Si, and how you wished for more substance.
I enjoy “chatty banter” as much as the next fellow, but serious questions deserve serious responses. I thought your question had a universal appeal that warranted an elaborate response.
Your question for me struck right at the heart of the matter: What are the conditions, and what’s our driving style? You nailed it. I like questions like that! ;-)
Assuming that my readers find me to be credible, I’m hoping that my elaborate response will be truly useful to you as well as anyone else searching the archives for information on the Si.
By the way, one of the reasons we’ve always logged all our fuel in a “Gas Book” is to serve as a check on performance. An unexplained drop in gas mileage would indicate we’ve got a problem that should be investigated before it gets any worse.
Tom, you say that most of your driving is in the city. If it’s a lot of stop-and-go stuff, I would predict your mileage figures might be even lower than ours. Just how much lower, I couldn’t say. I’d be interested in reading about your experience if you do buy an Si.
Have you test-driven the Si yet?
You asked:
“By the way, are (or were) you a writer?”
No, but thank you for asking. I appreciate the implicit compliment. :-)
I have always respected good writing and good writers. I do not regard myself as a particularly good writer. It’s a difficult craft, and, I believe, worth doing well. I struggle with it, and I try to improve. I do it for myself, out of respect for the craft, and out of respect for my readers. If folks are willing to take the time to read what I have to say, then I feel I owe them the best I can do. :-)
Y’r H’mble S’rv’nt,
Kauai
Mark must have suffered major brain fade when he wrote on page 18 of the 3/31/03 issue, in reference to Phil Hill, the 1961 Grand Prix World Champion, “. . . and in addition to vintage photos of America’s only Grand Prix Champion there are several of Hill’s trophies on display.”
Mark probably meant to write “first,” not “only.”
For those readers unfamiliar with motor racing history, Mario Andretti (very much an American) won the World Championship in 1978 driving for Colin Chapman’s Team Lotus. Mario was the second American to win the World Championship. No other American has won it since.
Mario’s gonna be steamed!
Poor Mark is likely to be ribbed mercilessly about this --- for years!
I was thinking of taking a cotton ball, soaked in WD-40, and securing it atop the sap blob... and leaving it for hours, maybe overnight.
Do you think that might work? Or, more to the point, would it damage the paint to soak it for that length of time in WD-40?
Anyone?
My take is that anything that's gonna cut the tree sap quick is also gonna cut the clear coat. The Turtle Wax remover is the best I've found, but it requires a LOT of elbow grease. It's a PIA, simply a PIA. I hate to say it, but I think the options are gobs of elbow grease vs. repainting. Before soaking with WD40, I'd try soaking with the Turtle Wax product.
There's a TH board called "Maintenance & Repair" where you might find somebody with a better idea. Given the options I've got, LOL, I think checking there makes a lot of sense.
Tree sap is bad stuff, but you already know that.
rayfbaird "Tree-sap , It will not come off. Can anybody help?" Jul 13, 2002 7:58pm
Much better options it looks like. ;~}!
"Have you test-driven the Si yet?"
I took a short check ride in one that didn't even have the wrapping taken off of it. Just enough to show me that I fit in it comfortably (I'm on the rangy side). The ride seemed well controlled, and the engine very smooth. I wish that it had an arm rest, though.
Now I just need to decide whether my situation warrants taking a bath on my present car, which is one year old as of today. It has not been an easy decision for me so far.
Mike
Thanks, my friend. :-)
Please excuse me; I will try very hard to keep the names straight. Mike is not Tom...
I appreciate your good humor. ;-)
- About 40% highway driving. Speeds around 75 with periodic bursts to 85-90 in the passing lane.
- 10% stop-and-go highway driving. Car would come to a complete stop, then start again, etc.
- 60% town driving. These trips are about 15-30 miles in length.
Shifting was done around 3k rpms for the majority of the time, though there were a quite a few times I would accelerate fast from a light shifting around 4.5k.
One thing I did try was to stay away from WOT as much as I could. Instead, I would try to keep the gas pedal pressed only 1/3 of the way down. I think this really had an impact on the gas consumption.
This gives me some sort of reason to not drive it like I stole it all the time. ;-)
Secondly, if you want to take issue with someone's comments, please leave out the personal comments and jabs. Our Town Hall Member Agreement requires we keep the discussion civil/friendly regardless of the circumstances. Okay?
Remember, it's okay to bash a vehicle or idea, in these discussions, but it's not okay to berate other members (even trolls) for their opinions. Best to focus on what you think instead of making each other the subject of discussion....
Btw, I had to delete a post, because of comments that were not within our Town Hall guidelines. Sorry, I do not have the ability to edit messages here; so if there's one small problem, I have to delete the entire post... losing all the valuable information as well.
Feel free to email me if you have any question/comments regarding this matter. Thanks!
Revka
If it was me, I'd take it to a knowledgeable Honda mechanic who doesn't work at a dealership. It's amazing the information they can divulge when they are not being paid by Honda. It can't hurt.
That was the only time that ever happened (6 Hondas, 10 years, circa 190,000 miles).
Has anyone here compared the EX Coupe to the Si Hatch? I am considering getting one. I have just taken on a job that will require a 30 mile one-way commute and don't want to put all those miles on my '02 Expedition. I do a lot of traveling (weekend trips to the family cabin, California road trips, etc)so I tend to put over 20,000 miles a year on my car/SUV. With the new job, I will be driving about 30,000 miles a year. I am considering a Civic Si or EX Coupe as a second/commuter car.
It appears as if I could get a low mileage (20k or less) '01 or '02 Civic Ex Coupe for $12 - $14k from a private party ad (Phoenix area). Have only seen 2 used '02 Si's for sale over the past few months. Both were about $15 - $16k. I have seen recent NEW Si's advertised for $15,600 to $15,995. Have not seen any new '02 or '03 Si's advertised for $15k yet here in Phx.
Is it me or are Honda Civic's not retaining their value like they used to?
I like the fact that the Si is somewhat of a rare limited production model. I can get a slightly used Ex, however, for several thousand less than a NEW Si ($12 to $13k w/no tax VS. a new Si for $16,500 including tax & lic.). Could be a $4,000 difference on a low mileage Ex VS. new Si. Thats a good chunk of change!
Some things that I have noticed:
The Si can go 110,000 miles without major maintenance (spark plugs, timing belt, tune-up, etc.) The Ex gets 32/39 MPG while the Si gets 26/30, however.
Anyone compared the two side-by-side? Consumer reports says that the Si drives/rides very much like the regular civic.
'Tween the engine, tranny, and seats, I think you'll find the Si quite a lot higher on the fun-to-drive factor and has reserve power you won't find in the EX; and I like the HB utility. Also, I (leadfoot me) don't get nearly the mpg others seems to get.
We are about to move and we will also have a 30 mile commute each way. For this purpose I will kinda miss my SI.
Is it me or are Honda Civic's not retaining their value like they used to?"
Resale value, you are asking whether the civics don't retain the value while at the same time you are posting that a new Si can be had for $15600, while used ones are sold for $15-16K. I think you have just answered your own question on the resale. I have bought my 2002 for $15500 out the door in January 2003. Theoretically I could turn around and sell it for $15-16K. Doubt I will get that. But to me even if I got $14K for it is GREAT resale value.
To deside what you want, drive both. If you are comfortable in the EX coupe, go fo it. I simply could not fit into it comfortably. Si answered my needs without big car feel. Ex does indeed get better gas mileage, so for a 30 mile one way commute (60 miles daily) EX is a better choice, given that you are comfortable in it. Si is fun to drive, but it is a thirsty little buggar. I am sure if I kept to the speed limit I would have gotten better gas mileage. But it is almost impossible to drive it slow. There is plenty of torque at 2000 RPM make it a perfect city car. It does have lower red line, and I constantly find the rev limiter (after driving high strung honda's for the last few years got me conditioned to rev it to the red line).
Good luck
The sap is still on the paint --- covered in snow and ice!
Geeze! Thought we were done with that.
I've been waiting for it to warm up so that I could apply butter to let it soak in overnight. I figured frozen butter wasn't likely to transfer much oil to the sap, so. . . I'm waitin'. :-(
I haven't forgotten. As soon as I can try these new tricks you found for me, I'll let you know how it goes.
By the way, we encountered a design "glitch" in the new Si. Water is apt to freeze in the gap surrounding the fuel filler door, making it impossible to get open! It happened to M. the other day and she had the good sense to dig out a plastic parking tag and carefully break out the ice without damaging the paint. I noticed ice surrounding the door tonight, and tried to open it without luck.
For those who live in snow country, it might be wise to keep something in the glove box to clear out the ice without damaging the paint. A credit card would work, but it might mess up the magnetic stripe on the card.
Just to pique your envy, let me tell you it was 70 and sunny here today. I started my day by washing the oak pollen off my Si, in shorts and sandels.
Your comments about ice reminded me of ND in January, a lot time ago - so cold the car suspension was rigid and the foam in the seats was solid, so cold the inside of my Yoda PU frosted up like a deep freezer, so cold . . . well, 'twas cold.
Spring can't help but show up, eventually. It's already 3 weeks late, guaging by the groundhog. Hang in.
EX:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/honda/civic/100178479/roadtestart- icle.html?articleId=46005&editorialpage=page003
Si:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/57200/page009.- html
“I'm wishing a hot, buttered Si on you.”
Well, thanks. But, umm. . . do you think you may have picked up the wrong “Book of Incantations,” or maybe substituted eye of newt when snakes’ toes were called for in the cauldron?
I mean, look what you DID: We awoke to four additional inches of heavy, wet snow. I had to gas up the snowblower again.
Geeze, River. Be more careful, will ya? ;-)
I'm just not sure what went wrong. I'm pretty sure I got the spell right (I know, 'pretty sure' ain't good enough in such matters.); but I think the cat, my familiar, had something going on. (Nice version of "The dog did it', huh?)
Anyhow, I am sorry. And I'm hoping to refrain from hoping anything at all about your weather.
A little late for snow, isn't it?
ummmm
How about them Mets?
ummmmm
Be cool?
ummmm
Can Spring be far behind?
ummmmm
But even if it was the same speed, the seats and the stick make the car. Those seats!
How the heck did CR get one to go 0-60 in under 8 seconds? Drop it off a cliff?
The EX has 127 hp and the Si 160 hp. CR and 0-60 is smelling really fishy.
About all this 0-60mph and horsepower stuff: Horsepower is not that significant when it comes to 0-60 times. The four most important factors are these:
1) The weight of the car.
2) The TORQUE that the engine produces
3) The gearing of the transmission
4) The grip at the wheels
It's better to have high torque than high horsepower. Higher horsepower is useful to achieve higher maximum speeds (where you haven't reached a rev limit), but acceleration is much more about torque.
My personal opinion is that unless you're into racing your car against the clock, whether the car has a 8.1 second 0-60mph or a 7.6 second 0-60mph in a straight line is irrelevant.
As long as I can get up to speed relatively quickly on an on-ramp to get into traffic, or promptly manouevre myself safely out of the way of danger, that 0.5 secs difference doesn't really matter.
At the end of the day, as long as you can out manouevre and out-sprint almost all SUVs on the road today, you're good to go. My standard 2002 Civic Si can do that, so it's fine by me!
Now up to 12,500 miles and it's running perfect. I commute 40 mile each way to work at an almost constant 78mph, and I'm regularly getting 28mpg.
My only bugbears are the paint flaking off around where I got some minor damage from flying stones, and the noticeable wind noise at speed.
Although, with respect to power and torque. . . more is better! I’d like more, please! <LOL>. The only thing is that I don’t really wish to spend $6,000 - $10,000 more to get it (e.g. Subaru WRX), so I find myself very satisfied with our Si, just as so many others do.
For drivers who are indifferent to, or unable to discern, the distinctions between the Si and the other Civic sedans, then they have the excellent Civic line to select from. I was going to say they could even save money, but with the depressed Si prices, an EX might actually cost more!
We have a Protégé5, too, and love it. In _our_ view, the Mazda is clearly the better choice --- a no-brainer --- if the choice comes down to a regular Civic vs. the Protégé. YMMV, of course. :-)
Mazda currently has excellent incentives in our region, and may have the same in Arizona. The EX, Si, and Protégé are all excellent cars that should serve you well. I doubt there are many unhappy owners of these cars.
It’s hard to help _you_ decide, in the end, because I cannot know what your personal preferences are: chocolate, vanilla, or strawberry ice cream? You might even prefer. . . a Buick Le Sabre! And who’s to say that’s not the perfect choice for YOU? ;-)
Go drive ‘em, Aza, and come back to talk to us.
You wrote:
“Some things that I have noticed:
The Si can go 110,000 miles without major maintenance (spark plugs, timing belt, tune-up, etc.) The Ex gets 32/39 MPG while the Si gets 26/30, however.”
Here are a few things I’d consider if I were in your shoes. Perhaps these thoughts will be useful to you.
How many miles would I drive this car before selling it? Let’s say I decide to sell at around 100,000 miles.
The new Si will need nominal maintenance over that period, assuming no problems, and you’ll just need filters and fluids changed, I think.
In contrast, if you drive the EX to whatever point that requires the cam timing belt be changed, that’s going to be expensive. You’ll probably want to replace the water pump, too, while it’s all unbuttoned. I’d guess the bill might run $600 - $900. If you drive a used EX long enough to need two belt changes, the total costs are even higher, of course.
This extra maintenance expense for the EX would help considerably to offset the difference in fuel costs between the Si and EX.
I appreciate your concern with fuel economy. But have you worked the figures? Whenever I do that, I’m able to convince myself that it’s not as big an issue as I originally thought.
Assuming money is the principle issue, as opposed to eco-concerns, then consider this: Si = 100,000 miles @ 27 mpg @ $1.60/gal = $5926. EX = 100,000 miles @ 34 mpg @ $1.60/gal = $4706.
Accepting my guesstimates, the Si will cost $1220 more in fuel costs over the life of your car. Spread over four years, that’s $305 per year. That’s not inconsequential, but set against the total cost of ownership, including insurance, etc., it’s not as big an issue as I might have thought. To us, those “dues” are quite reasonable to enjoy the extra benefits (to us) of the Si. YMMV.
You wrote:
“Consumer reports says that the Si drives/rides very much like the regular civic.”
Yes, they did, didn’t they? I confess I was actually surprised to see that. I expected better from C.R. Non-enthusiasts reading this are ill served by such nonsense. I suggest that enthusiasts know better. This writer should be sent back to reviewing refrigerators. ;-)
If you are concerned about this, I recommend reading professional auto magazines such as “Road & Track,” “Automobile,” “Car & Driver,” “Motor Trend,” and “Autoweek.” Consumers would be far better served by reading reviews in these magazines. C.R. seems to do a good job of reviewing household appliances.
“Well I keep seeing more and more '02 and '03 Si's on the road here in Phoenix. Saw a black one today that looked great. I really like the look. Maybe its going back to my youth.”
Ahh yes. . . revisiting one’s youth. <sigh> A good place to visit, but you don’t really want to stay too long, do you? <LOL!>
I see the list of neat cars you had and I recall our ’83 Gti (the original “pocket rocket”), and I suspect that you’d really like the new Si.
But, Aza, you’ve got to go drive one. Give an Si a vigorous workout. Then come back and talk to us. I don’t know what else we can do for you, absent your description of your test drive and your impressions and questions.
You might not like the car. Others prefer the EX. Who knows what you’d like?
Have you driven the Si yet? :-)
I then went and test drove the Focus SVT, and immediately knew that was the car. The list price in Canada was $1800 more for the Focus, but for that I got a great 6CD sound system, 17" wheels with good performance tires, as well as heated seats and traction control. The 6-speed in the Focus allows for more relaxed highway cruising RPM than the Si. The Focus is so much fun to drive on a daily basis. It handles like a go-cart, has amazing brakes, and the engine has a nice strong torque curve from 2000rpm on up. The 2002 Focus comes with a 5 year, 62000 mile powertrain warranty in Canada, so I will be covered if any problems crop up. Only problem so far was a check engine light, which required a new gas cap to seal properly.
Our 2002 Ex (bought new) had the left front strut replaced twice due to binding. No other problems, unless you count the extremely crappy Firestone tires that come on the car.