Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier

muffin_man

I mean, you two have owned 3 of them, that must be some sort of world record. We got fanastic deals, and for $17k or less, ($15,980 in my case) the Si is definitely the best car available for the money.

gee35coupe

It was 2 00's, 2 02's and now an 03. I keep coming back for more.

anonymousposts

"CR has never recommended a bad car in my 30 years of subscribing to this excellent source of unbiased reporting"

First of all, they give the Focus a black circle for predicted reliability and said that even though it is fun to drive it's reliability has been below average. It's also one of their "Worst Used Cars". Under the heading they say this "Some cars have a bad year, while others trail the pack consistently. The vehicles on this list have had more problems than average over multiple years. Buying one could be asking for trouble."

Not so sure if I would refer to CR again in a post meant to defend and/or promote the Focus.

nippononly

my local dealer has had two SIs sitting on his lot for several months now: one of the two is the one I test drove a couple of months ago, and I noted the VIN. That one arrived in the summer. I drove by today, and the tires are now gradually going flat. The passenger door has a 2-inch scratch. Plus they have not washed it since the last rain more than a week ago, so it is kind of bedraggled. It has a big sign hanging on the rear view mirror advertising a $17K sale price, down from the $19,6 sticker. Still, it seems not to sell.

I was thinking it might be worth offering them $16K or even less if it is still sitting there in a month or two. But seeing its condition today, I am not so sure I would even want it.

I picked up a Honda brochure at the auto show, and it showed pictures of the '04 with the bigger rims, but to date, local dealers have not received any of these...when are they coming?

wazappa

Anyone seem a 2004 at a dealer yet?

gee35coupe

And I'm not looking forward to em. I don't like the changes.

Speaking of old....My 03 was built in December 02. I bought it in October 03. It had been around.

nippononly

wow - did you have any reservations about buying a car that had been sitting on a dealer lot for nine or ten months? I am just curious, because I still have not totally discarded this idea. If the '04s ever DO arrive, this dealer is going to have an even harder time selling these two '03s.

I wonder about things like flat-spotting of the tires, significantly reduced battery life, and even rust in the engine and exhaust because of not being run enough?

gee35coupe

But the oil was/is clean as a whistle. And rust is gonna end up in the exhaust eventually anyway. As far as the battery...Not much of a concern since it's under warranty for at least a year after I buy the car no matter when it was built. This has been the best one out of the three EP's. Although the first one only lasted 1500 miles.

93civichybrid

i say that honda which to me seems to be losing ground in the sport compact sector brings back the crx. i am so close to selling my gsr powered civic coupe in favor of a b16 powered del sol (if i could find one that is) anyways honda is definately missing out on the new sporty/racey look/design that is going into other car companies cars. the crx would definately be a fresh face in the honda line up which to me is getting a bit...well boring. i mean all honda has is the civic coupe which is a ugly car, the civic sedan which shares the same ugliness. and then the accord which is nice but i mean really what we need is for honda to stop selling all the decent cars as acura's the tsx which is just the accord euro-r should be a honda as well as the rsx which should still be an integra IMO regradless if its still an acura. honda definately needs to get some fresh/new models in there or atleast give us the type-r. i feel like we are totally shafted by all japanese car makers expecially honda which has yet to give us a civic type-r and so far no civic with dohc engine (except the 99-00 si and the del sol) if honda wants to boost new si sales i say scrap the si and just give us a nice sexy type-r instead hehe.

nippononly

about doing just that - bringing the Civic type R to the U.S. But that was a while ago, I wonder if it got dropped?

I would love it if the CRX came back.

muffin_man

I think that having this (see below) lineup would make Honda significantly more competitive. Then again, I doubt they are anywhere near having a CRX ready for release, but we can dream.

RSX-R (k20a/220hp)
RSX (k20a3/160hp)
Civic-R (k20a2/200hp)
CRX-R (k20a200hp)
CRX (k20a3/160hp)

Maybe even have a hybrid CRX available. Then again, is there a market for 2-seat sport compacts? (besides us)

93civichybrid

i would like to see someone with enough money take an insight remove the wheel covers drop a k20 into it and boom its a new crx hybrid ready for the road. i honda basically already has a platform for it they just need to dvelop it further for the crx body/platform. i think there is a market for it. i mean sure honda has the beat in japan but that is hardly a 2 seat sports car that the crx was designed originally to be. and why not just release the thing in the US only i mean japan has gotten cars over there which will never in a million years see our shores why shouldnt we atleast get something in return for all those years of neglect.

nippononly

you get down to the weight, body size, and engine size of a car like the CRX, the fuel economy advantage really begins to seem kind of meaningless. I mean, the RSX does low 30s already. The proposed CRX would be 200-300 pounds lighter, and maybe better aerodynamics. It begs the question: does the hybrid powertrain merely add needless weight at that point, or is it genuinely helpful and important? I am sure they could build a 40-mpg CRX with existing engines and without hybrid tech. And remember, light is the key to great handling.

It would be nice if they could build a CRX that was a couple hundred pounds lighter than the existing Civic coupe. Maybe 2200 or so.

dudka

when the insight was released in 2000, my first thought was that this is what CRX would have looked like had it been around for year 2000. I think insight is light as it is, isn't it made out of alluminum?

93 civic hybrid
I am sure you are proud of your swap, but come on. you have a 93 civic with god knows what mileage on the engine. didn't you mention that this was your second engine?
As much as B18 WAS a good engine, it is in the past. The new K series engines are the way to go. Have you actually driven the new Si? Yes, it lacks the high RPM punch of the old VTEC. But, it has excellent torque curve and response. It is great for city driving. No longer do i need to wring out the engine to keep up with 10 mph traffic crawl. For a car just "out of the box" Si is great daily driver. And you insist on Civic Type R, are you willing to plop $24K for a Civic hatchback with no A/c nor sunroof? Put your money where your mouth is.
Good luck

dudka

well, I don't know too many people who actually paid $18K for the Si. I paqid $14,500 last january for a brand new Si with 8 miles on the odometer.
Whether leasing or financing, you are still going to pay for the high sticker price. A lease on $24K vehicle will run about $300 up to $400 depending on the downpayment.
To me, Acura TSX is a better deal at $26K. I would never pay more than $15-16K for a civic, no matter what it comes with. It is still a Civic, basic transportation.

I am only 9 years older than you, so my advice may not sound too good to you, but DO NOT GET YOUR SELF INTO A LEASE!!!!!

muffin_man

Got any time slips?

93civichybrid

dudka. yea i dont think i'll be owning a new car for a while it just doesnt make sense to lease a car IMO since u dont own the car and cant do anything to it. i'll probably just be buying from private dealer or getting a car from a used car lot. but thats not gonna be any time soon because i love my honda. but yes the time will come to move on and then i will see what my next car will be depending on how much money i get for my current car. and muffin man i havent been able to get to a track since the motor went in because when i put my first b18c1 which was in the summer it was running fine until it started losing power and we realized it had low compression in 2 cylinders which was most likely bent valves. then i blew the distrubutor for some reason we didnt know how until i got my new engine in. after i bought my new and current b18c1 it was still running poorly and we figured out that my cat was clogged. so we got a high flow cat in and it ran great since. and i havent had a change since then to get to a track since there arent any tracks out on long island cept for one in the hamptons and the only other tracks arent anywhere local to me. but hopefully in the spring when the season starts up again i'll get some runs in. i cant wait. but i dont know i can beat a new 04 maxima, a lexus gs400, an se-r and several other fairly quick cars.

gee35coupe

jmiller417

16" wheels look to be the most substantial improvement.

nippononly

has the auto-up driver's window now, same as the RSX.

A little thing, but a nicety nonetheless! :-)

jmiller417

Base price is now $19,320. I would imagine transaction prices will go up more with the bigger wheels and the demise of the SVT Focus.

muffin_man

The EP is a great car, but paying $19,320 for it is insane.

nippononly

against the Matrix XRS. For about the same money, the Matrix gives you a six-speed versus five, two extra doors and a ton of extra space. Both have about the same output, the same weight, the same fuel economy, and both are relatively dirty engines by 2004 standards. The Matrix deletes indy rear suspension however. But it does offer a very cheap 17" wheel option.

For the absolute rock-bottom prices ($15-16K) that Civic has been going for, I would say it is the better deal, but if I am going to get either for $18K, I am leaning towards the Matrix. It has the longer powertrain warranty too.

I think both are overpriced at sticker. Look at all the competition in this range.

muffin_man

Here's why I like the EP better than the Matrix (without getting into looks)

1. I don't want 4 doors (which obviously doesn't apply to you) If I did, I would go with a Mazdaspeed Protege, and if I needed a hatch, I would probably go for a 5 door SVT, or would I go for a SRT4? This is why I don't want a sedan.

2. The 2zz engine, like the k20a2 in the RSX-S, is at its best at high RPMs. The EP has more torque than the 2zz throughout most of its powerband. The XRS is probably a little bit faster, but you have to drive the heck out of it to get there. (not that there is anything wrong with that, but since the cars are about the same speed, I'll take the less frantic engine)

3. I like the handling of the Si a little bit better. Significantly better after putting on stiffer springs.

4. If it matters, the Si has the better aftermarket.

I don't think you can go wrong with either one, they are both fun cars. But yeah, go for $16k for either!

nippononly

these are BOTH rippin' bargains!

thanks for restraining yourself on the Matrix visual commentary - I think it is cute! :-)

I was able to rent the Matrix for a couple of days and drive it near the limit, at least near my limit! (didn't tax it, and surprised me how well it handled)

I wish I could do the same with the Civic. As it is, I have had some test drive time with a salesman, but the locals are not happy to let it out of their sight without a ride-along - they say there have been too many instances of street-racing in their new cars!!!! :-P

The test drive is just too tame to see what it can really do in tight curves. The little I have experienced makes me think that the Civic has more body roll than the Matrix, which would be weird since the Matrix is higher.

muffin_man

re: Matrix visual commentary - hey, I'm not about to start throwing anything from _this_ glass house...

I don't think most salesmen really care how you drive it, more important is having a place to drive it properly. Only once have I gotten a test drive without a ride-along, and that car wasn't exactly "new." By any chance are you in Southern California?

The Si is a little softly sprung. I put some Tein springs on for about $120, and the improvement was dramatic.

nippononly

and the local Toyota dealer will toss you the keys to anything on the lot with a casual "please try not to take longer than half an hour".

The Honda dealer is notoriously anal!

gee35coupe

How much drop on those springs? Did you get new shocks too? And I agree the stock springs are a nick too soft.

muffin_man

nippononly - think he'll toss me the keys to an MR-S for a half hour? I wouldn't mind that one bit...

gee35coupe - The springs gave me about a 1.5" drop, on the OEM shocks. From what people tell me, the stock shocks should last a long time with this mild of a drop. I'm hoping to get 40-50,000 more miles out of them. Although if I never have to change them, all the better.

If you were going to replace the shocks and springs, I would go with the Mugen Sport Suspension. It's about $995, and non-adjustable. But the difference is supposed to be astonishing. That's what I would have done, but the truth is, to really get the full benefit out of any major suspension mods, you need new tires, maybe wider rims, sway bar, this and that. I figured, I can spend $130 on the springs, or $3000+ doing a full setup. And while this is a great car, it isn't worth all that - then I would be playing right into snakerbill's hands.

nippononly

yup, he would, and in fact he did...for me!

If that car had a hard top, there wouldn't be any other cars in consideration. But I am not a big fan of convertibles.

I AM a big fan of MR2.

gee35coupe

And a nice set of 17's next year. I may even just go to wider 16's with a little offset to widen the stance a bit. My 00 Si had a 205/50/15 setup with Ground Controls and Borbet Type C wheels that looked untouchable.

muffin_man

nippononly:
I was very close to getting the MR-2, but when they offered the Si for 16k, I couldn't justify coming up with the extra $7000 at the time. I love convertibles...and the optional hard top for the MR-2 looks great. (not that I would use it) In fact, if it wasn't for my love of convertibles, I probably would spend a lot more money on this car. Will the Solstice hurry up and get here already?

Now, you can pick up pretty much any Miata for $6000 off MSRP (at least), which puts many of them around $17,000. I'm so tempted to trade, but I'll try to convince the woman to take the Si when the Solstice comes out. (if it ends up being a good car, that is)

gee35:
The setup you describe sounds great, especially with the 16s. My plan was to pick up some lightweight 16x7s (vs. the stock 15x6.5) and some better tires. Falkens maybe? Big wheels look great on this car, but if you can find 14 pound rims, and OEM equivalent weight tires, you can cut 5 pounds a corner off the unsprung weight (stock rims = 19 pounds). That's a big difference.

mdriver

Everyone keeps saying how they got a great deal on their Si, considerably below the rediculously high MSRP of $19400. But, there's no free lunch here. New cars that have steep discounts also have low resale. The steep discounts are there to move a slow selling product. A slow selling product will also be slow selling as a used product, thus the low resale value. The only benefit is if you keep the Si for a long time.

gee35coupe

When we dumped the rollaway SI we did pretty good. I think we only lost like $2000 from what we owed VS. trade. That compares much better than my 2000 Silverado that I lost $8000 on.

A low mileage SI still brings 13K or so in the Atlanta area. Not bad when you can get one for $16k.

muffin_man

People are getting up to $14,000 for the 2002 Si, even now. So resale is fine - not oustanding, but I have no complaints. That said, sales are improving, and prices are higher now than they were back then. After 5 years, I doubt it will be an issue.

nippononly

is that sales have been so slow that availability of used ones is limited. This can't help but improve resale. And of course being a Honda doesn't hurt it! :-)

muffin_man

I wish I could see some sales numbers. I'm curious what Honda intended vs. what they got.

anonymousposts

The 97+ Prelude was never the hottest seller yet you would would never know it if you tried to buy a used one now.

nippononly

a dealer near me has the '04 in stock....now that the car has the 16s, I can't imagine what Honda was thinking bringing out the car with the smaller rims before. The new ones look great and fill up the wheel wells. The changes at the front are a lot more subtle to my eye, although I can detect that they changed it some.

It was after hours, but I am going to go back and drive it, to see how much of a change the new rims make in the handling. They put V-rated Michelin Pilots on this car - nice tires.

siboy

Others improvements to the 04 Si include revised steering and springs/shocks, thicker rear sway bar (17mm vs. 15mm), and better sound deadening. Honda has addressed many of the weaknesses of the 02-03s for the 04, although a few more hp would have been nice.

My 02 Si is only 15 months old, but has had many problems. Most have been fixed, but two are very worrisome to me. One is high oil consumption (1 qt per 1500-2000 miles), which is said to be normal by Honda. The other is a creaking sound behind the firewall on the driver side that started at 24,000 miles and can be heard upon take-off and stopping. Although Honda America has no fix for the creak yet, Honda UK is replacing the steering rack/ EPS unit on Civic Type-Rs that have this complaint.

gee35coupe

Hasn't burned any oil yet. Both our 02's did during break in. Maybe they fixed that for 03. Only other issue I have is it seems my heater takes a long time to warm up. Glad it lives in a garage since I'd never defrost my windshield.

dudka

I too have a 2002 Si, and it initially had high oil consumption that has subsided to somewhat normal levels

nippononly

the '04 last night, and it is much improved with the 16s - corners quicker and flatter (also attributable in part to the slightly larger sway bar, I am sure). The ride is firm but not killer over bad pavement.

All in all, this car is a cut above the Mazda3 5-door. I test-drove them back to back to compare. Materials are better as is content, for about the same price. Really love the seats, a noticeable stand-out compared to the competition.

For me, the power is a good compromise between acceleration and fuel economy: this engine loves to rev (the thing I LOVE about Hondas in general). It winds right up without thrashing around, getting noisy, or falling off in power. I am seriously looking at replacing my car with this one when I get my tax return in a few weeks.

Which brings me to a question I am hoping some of you owners could chime in on: what kind of gas mileage do you get in regular everyday driving?

gee35coupe

moparbad

80% highway (60-70 mph) and 20% City yielded a average of 27 mpg. I no longer own my Si.

nippononly

the highway rating has gone up a point to 31 for the '04. The tires have only gotten bigger, so what could account for this increase? Have they changed the gearing so the engine "lopes" more at speed?

aaronpan

Just curious about what brand of engine oil everyone puts on their Si? And can we put 10w-30 instead of 5w-20(which recommended by Honda)? Is sythentic oil good for the Si, too? I am thinking about getting Mobile 1 Full Sythentic for my Si, but don't know if it's proper way of doing so. Or Honda's own oil is the best? Please share your comments.
Thanks!

siboy

If you live in a hot climate you might be able to run 10W30. One Si owner in Houston swears by 15W40. I am currently running German Castrol 0W30 synthetic, but it might be a little too thick (valve-tapping when cold). You can run synthetic in the Si, but many recommend waiting until at least 5000 miles or until the engine quits burning oil before you switch. Honda's 5W20 is actually a pretty good oil with a decent additive package. However, at high rpms, my engine sounded strained when using the Honda oil. With synthetic it just purrs. Listen to your engine, it will tell you if it likes your choice of oil.

nippononly

be tempted to use 5W-30 around here...we get some 100-degree days in the summer sometimes.

gee35coupe

It ought to be the best for high rpm running.