Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

stickguy

brakes are reasonably upgrade-able at least. adding 100 HP, not quite so easy. I thought that the BRZ was supposed to be getting a turbo model at some point? Seems like it is a lot easier to have a separate track car.

Oh, you would appreciate my son (the one that leased the Jetta last February). he texted me out of the blue tonight, that he really thinks he wants a GLI for his next car. Nice to know, even though it is more than 2 years down the line before he can really consider getting out of it! Though would not surprise me at some point next year to get a call that he wants to try and trade up, and do I want to come help....

roadburner

The GLI's aren't cheap either. Nice enough, but I'd want a GTI- I prefer hatches to trunks...

nyccarguy

Didn't edmunds have a long term FRS that they supercharged?

bwia

stickguy said:

I have an actual car buying story. Picked up a new Sonata today. 2015 2.4 limited tech (pano roof, navigation). Loaded up like a baby E350!

happy with the way the day went, and anyone in Philly area that wants a Hyundai should look at Faulkner.

stickguy, congratulations on the purchase of your new 2015 Sonata. I was just reading a review of the new Sonata and the reviewer wrote that the interior design is Genesis-like and much more upscale than other midsize sedans. From the pics I've seen, I have to agree with that assessment.

bwia

abacomike said:

INFINITI Q70 SEDAN

Before making my final decision about staying with the Mercedes E 400 Sport Sedan, I decided to go over to the Infiniti Dealership and take a good look at the new Q70 L (long wheel base). I did some research first to determine what options were available, colors for exterior and interior.and the pricing.

I imagine I will have to wait another 5+ weeks for my E400 to arrive.

Thanks all for reading through all this - hopefully it was helpful - but I know it is skewed to my needs rather than yours - so just because I found one of the cars I drove inappropriate for me doesn't mean you should not consider one of those cars for yourself.

And the saga continues.... Mike, perhaps this is a signal to hold unto your CLS 550 a bit longer and stop shopping around for an "imaginary" car that does not exist. Basically, you are happy with your current car and everything else falls short in terms of prestige, price and interior comfort. Unless you are making a move to an S-class I would suggest staying pat for the moment.

Also, glad to hear that your son, Justin is making good progress toward a complete recovery. Justin is on our international prayer list and we are praying for him. Never underestimate the power of prayer. Our prayer group has had two major successes, which can only be explained by prayer:

The first, a 19-year old Filipino student studying in Boston, suffered a stroke and as a result went into a coma for three months. She made a complete recovery and returned to school to finish her undergraduate degree and law school. The other, was a young ambassador to Cuba who was in a horrific automobile accident. The crash was in a rural section outside of Havana and he laid unconscious by the roadside for hours before his body was discovered; and another six weeks in a coma. Luckily, as an ambassador he was able to get medical treatment at a top military hospital in Cuba. He too, made a miraculous recovery and has since resumed his ambassadorial responsibilities. By the way, he was driving a BMW SUV that was unrecognizable after the crash. Thankfully, they were able to recognize him from his cell phone that also survived.

In both cases, we have no explanation but to believe in the power of prayer and divine intervention.

houdini1

Stick, congrats on the new ride. I really like the new Sonata. Enjoy.

stickguy

Thanks BW. the interior is upscale. I actually walked over to a new genesis that was backed into a spot on the dealers lot to see which model Sonata it was. The front ends are very similar.

Thanks Houdini. I will!

houdini1

Stick, one other thing. Edmunds assigns an "A" rating to the 2015 Sonata. You should check that out if you haven't already. They loved it. Those "A" ratings are hard to come by.

imidazol97

driver100 said:

Great that the deal went down so well....we trained you real good.

LOL

ab348

houdini1 said:

Stick, one other thing. Edmunds assigns an "A" rating to the 2015 Sonata. You should check that out if you haven't already. They loved it. Those "A" ratings are hard to come by.

Those letter grades confuse me. Some vehicles get them, some do not, and I have not found any reference as to how they are determined.

isellhondas

Nice car, Stick!

I have modified my opinion of Korean cars and admit that they have certainly come a LONG way in just a few years.

Last week I parked next to a new Sonata and I honestly thought it was an expensive European car. I had to look at the nameplate! Nice ride!

explorerx4

@oldfarmer50,
15 Mustang on the ground

isellhondas

Anyone else think those black wheels are ugly?

I have to think that for that kind of money there are smarter choices out there.

But...that's me.

oldfarmer50

abacomike said:

I thought that I should share with you the fact that 90% of the higher priced options on all cars never increase the Actual Cash Value (ACV) of the car at trade-in time.

The only options that add value are Navigation and Leather Seats.  In some instances, a factory high end audio system with Bluetooth can add value.

In some cases, a car without a moonroof, automatic transmission, etc., can mean a decrease in ACV at trade time.

This, if you put two 3 year old Mercedes Benz E350's side by side in the same identical condition and identical mileage, but one has a special lighting package, driver assistance package, and upgraded massage seats and ventilated seats, both cars would either wholesale for the same money or sell on a dealership's used car lot for the same money.

The thing to learn here is that after 3 years, a car loaded to the gills with all sorts of options brings no more at trade-in time than a basic car with a minimum of optional equipment.

Interesting. I noticed that when you appraise on Edmunds for TMV the optional equipment doesn't bring much. Perhaps that's because buyers feel these item are just expensive repairs waiting in the future.

I know that's the way I look at it.

oldfarmer50

explorerx4 said:

@oldfarmer50,
15 Mustang on the ground

They are really pushing those turbo models. Very few GTs around and none of them autos. I did a search on the Ford website for 2014 GTs within 100 miles and found maybe 30 still available...all sticks.

oldfarmer50

isellhondas said:

Anyone else think those black wheels are ugly?

I have to think that for that kind of money there are smarter choices out there.

But...that's me.

Yes, they are ugly. Remind me of wheels covered in brake dust. $37k for that thing? Where's the kitchen sink?

The GT I'm mulling over stickers for $34.9.

stever

"Our "letter grade" rating system is based on testing and evaluation by a core group of Edmunds.com staffers who see and drive more than 250 cars every year."

Near as I can tell there are currently 673 new car models available for sale in the US, so we're grading around a third of them.

"Letter Grade" Ratings for New Cars on Edmunds.com

stickguy

not a nice looking color on the Mustang. And I don't like black wheels in general, and in this case, they particularly don't match.

ab348

isellhondas said:

Anyone else think those black wheels are ugly?

I have to think that for that kind of money there are smarter choices out there.

But...that's me.

Yes, I agree on the wheels. Unfortunately you are going to see a lot more of those. I built a V-6 2015 Mustang on the Ford site and discovered that the only optional wheel available for that model (if you don't want the standard silver 17" wheels) is an 18" BLACK wheel. Can't stand them, look like steel winter wheels to my mind.

I imagine once the initial rush quiets down that Ford will heavily incent these.

houdini1

isellhondas said:

Anyone else think those black wheels are ugly?

I have to think that for that kind of money there are smarter choices out there.

But...that's me.

Butt ugly !

ab348

stever said:

"Our "letter grade" rating system is based on testing and evaluation by a core group of Edmunds.com staffers who see and drive more than 250 cars every year."

Near as I can tell there are currently 673 new car models available for sale in the US, so we're grading around a third of them.

"Letter Grade" Ratings for New Cars on Edmunds.com

Thanks for the info. Obviously very subjective but I can't fault Edmunds for that as all ratings for vehicles are. The difficulty is that until are cars in a given category receive a letter grade, they are not very useful, and they also apparently do not translate across categories. The Sonata got an "A" in "Fun to Drive" while the ATS got a "B". You have to be kidding.

houdini1

ab348 said:

houdini1 said:

Stick, one other thing. Edmunds assigns an "A" rating to the 2015 Sonata. You should check that out if you haven't already. They loved it. Those "A" ratings are hard to come by.

Those letter grades confuse me. Some vehicles get them, some do not, and I have not found any reference as to how they are determined.

Not all the cars have a letter grade but most do. When you are reading a full review, the letter grade will be right at the start. Click on the letter to see how the grade was arrived at.

Or you can just search "ratings" then click on new car ratings.

Maybe Steve has an easier way.

abacomike

isellhondas said:

Anyone else think those black wheels are ugly? I have to think that for that kind of money there are smarter choices out there. But...that's me.

UGLY, UGLY, UGLY!

verdugo

isellhondas said:

Anyone else think those black wheels are ugly?

I have to think that for that kind of money there are smarter choices out there.

But...that's me.

I thought they were steel wheels and the real wheels would be put on before delivery.

roadburner

oldfarmer50 said:

isellhondas said:

Anyone else think those black wheels are ugly?

I have to think that for that kind of money there are smarter choices out there.

But...that's me.

Yes, they are ugly. Remind me of wheels covered in brake dust. $37k for that thing? Where's the kitchen sink?

The GT I'm mulling over stickers for $34.9.

I built two 'stangs on the Ford site; equipped to where I'd actually want one, the Ecoboost was $35,589 and the GT was $42,810. Nope, not happening.

Om a more positive note, my wife says that she's beginning to like the SRT8...

imidazol97

ab348 said:

they are not very useful, and they also apparently do not translate across categories. The Sonata got an "A" in "Fun to Drive" while the ATS got a "B". You have to be kidding.

I did a little reading up on the Sonata and Malibu rear legroom. The Edmunds "reviews" sound more like they just read someone else's comments and have repeated them for 3 model years. They still talk about the tight legroom in the rear seat of the Malibu. On the other hand, the Sonata has 1.2 inches less legroom rear and Edmunds says, "As before, the Sonata has more than ample room for four adults. Those in back even have a bit more hip- and legroom than before."

Loss of credibility on that one. However they do mention headroom rear. But then how many of us will even use the rear seats more than rarely?

I think I'll have to go sit in the new 2015 and see the interior and rear legroom again. I like the softened styling for 2015 better than the earlier ones I looked at when shopping.

stickguy

I take legroom specs with a big grain of salt. "real world" depends on how the rear seat is set up (low cushion or elevated) and how far back you have to put the front seats to be comfortable.

if the Malibu has more than the Sonata, it must be a limo.

Nothing in the class IMO beats the passat thought. That is like a stretch version!

stever

The difficulty is that until are cars in a given category receive a letter grade, they are not very useful, and they also apparently do not translate across categories. The Sonata got an "A" in "Fun to Drive" while the ATS got a "B". You have to be kidding.

They're kind of like crash test results - from the FAQ:

"Note that all ratings are relative to comparable vehicles in the same segment."

Then again, @stickguy's Sonata is awfully plush.

ab348

I found the ratings page here:

http://www.edmunds.com/new-car-ratings/

Almost everything gets an A or a B. Here is the list of vehicles that got a "C":
Sedans:
2014 Chrysler 200
2014 Dodge Avenger
2014 Dodge Dart
2013 Kia Rio
2014 Lincoln MKZ
2014 Subaru Legacy
2013 VW Jetta GLI

Coupes:
2014 Cadillac ELR
2013 Infiniti G Coupe

SUVs:
2015 Audi Q3
2015 Chevrolet Suburban
2015 Chevrolet Tahoe
2014 Dodge Journey
2014 Ford Edge
2014 Hyundai Tucson
2014 Jeep Compass
2014 Jeep Patriot
2014 Mitsubishi Outlander

Hatchbacks:
2013 Fiat 500T
2013 Mini Cooper Paceman
2013 Nissan Versa Note
2014 Toyota Yaris

I'll leave out the Convertibles, Hybrids, and Trucks.

There appear to be a lot of problems with the ratings. The fact that so many SUVs get C ratings in a relatively small category compared to the other categories' percentage of C ratings suggests that is messed up. Meanwhile some categories don't have any C ratings at all. If there was a normal expected distribution that would seem unlikely.

I don't know what the solution is. However I can say that an "A" rating is not all that hard to find. I just don't know what any of the grades actually means or if they are in any way valid.

fezo

A couple of Mazda notes. Why doesn't the new 6 get a letter grade? They love it but no grade.

rb - how would a new MS3 fit in all that?

imidazol97

ab348 said:

I found the ratings page here:

http://www.edmunds.com/new-car-ratings/

Almost everything gets an A or a B. Here is the list of vehicles that got a "C":
Sedans:

Thanks for posting that link. I was going to ask where the ratings were.

No ratings for Chevrolet Malibu. Nada.

However in the description and review section they do have reliability data--from 2012 model and pass that off as useful in current model context. Beginning to sound like Consumer Reports methodology.

stever

There's a FAQ for that too, lol. We're between vendors for reliability ratings.

Bring Reliability Ratings back

abacomike

@driver‌

Give us us a sign that you have arrived safely, driver.

explorerx4

If was at a Ford dealer, not to look at a Mustang in particular, just to poke around.
After looking at a bunch of F150's, I decided that the model that interests me most is the Lariat.
If I do get an F150, it will probably be a short bed regular cab model. It's tough for me to justify anything bigger.
I do keep going back to Explorers, although as an empty nester, I don't need one to take the family on vacation. They are really good road trip vehicles, which appeals to me.

roadburner

fezo said:

A couple of Mazda notes. Why doesn't the new 6 get a letter grade? They love it but no grade.

rb - how would a new MS3 fit in all that?

The current rumor as reported in several car magazines is that a new MS3 is @18 months out- it will supposedly be AWD and make @300 hp. Also rumored is a 6 coupe(possibly available in a Mazdaspeed version), an MS2(to take on the Fiesta ST) and -yet again- the oft rumored Miata coupe is mentioned...

stickguy

Since you mentioned it, I realized today that my next purchase (in 3 years) will be for out 1st "done with tuition payments and about to be empty nesters" vehicle. That should be fun. won't really change much, since we will still have the same family car (RDX) at out disposal.

mako1a

After looking thru the car ratings, I think Edmunds needs to hire some 60 plus year olds to rate cars to their liking. I'm 64 and NO VW would be above a C. Mustangs would be an A (including Shelbys) because they do what they are intended to do very well. No, you can't strap a kid in a car seat easily. That's not what they're for. They're to make an old guy or girl feel younger than their actual age. A 19 year old kid won't get that and rate it a lousy B. But then again a 19 year old kid can't afford a Mustang GT. Maybe we who can actually buy the cars should have the final say in the rating system. Ford Focus...an A? Not in my world.

ab348

mako1a said:

After looking thru the car ratings, I think Edmunds needs to hire some 60 plus year olds to rate cars to their liking. I'm 64 and NO VW would be above a C. Mustangs would be an A (including Shelbys) because they do what they are intended to do very well. No, you can't strap a kid in a car seat easily. That's not what they're for. They're to make an old guy or girl feel younger than their actual age. A 19 year old kid won't get that and rate it a lousy B. But then again a 19 year old kid can't afford a Mustang GT. Maybe we who can actually buy the cars should have the final say in the rating system. Ford Focus...an A? Not in my world.

I think you make a very strong point. Substitute "ATS" for "Mustang" and I could have written that. The ratings are screwy. I didn't even know about them before today, so if most people are the same as me, there's a chance for Edmunds to clean them up without losing face.

imidazol97

mako1a said:

After looking thru the car ratings, I think Edmunds needs to hire some 60 plus year olds to rate cars to their liking. ... Maybe we who can actually buy the cars should have the final say in the rating system. Ford Focus...an A? Not in my world.

Right on target. Different folks have different values. I think the people who write for the mags and who do reviews become narcissistic into their own values, be it Motorweek, Consumer reports, Car&Driver, usw..

I agree about the Camaro and Mustang and Charger being targeted to a certain buyer and being hard-to-rate by other demographics.

ab348

I just remembered a funny experience I had with the business manager during the turn-in of the Buick Regal the day I signed the papers on the ATS.

The business manager and I were finishing up everything and I had handed over both sets of keys to the Regal. He said something like "all I need to do is contact GM Financial to get the title for it."

I had an dealership envelope in my file folder for the car and pulled it out. "You mean this?"

"Where did you get that?" he asked with an incredulous look on his face.

"The salesman from 3 years ago gave it to me one day after I got the car. He called me to tell me to pick it up. I've had it for 3 years."

"Uhhh, yes, I'll take that," he said, grinning.

When we went out to the sales guy, the business manager was still incredulous. "He had the Certificate of Registration!" he told the sales guy.

"Where did you get that?" he asked me. Seemed to be a popular question. I told him. He ran off to tell the sales manager the story.

It was useful to them as they could put the car on the used lot much sooner than if they had to wait for the certificate to come from some office in Toronto.

Now I wonder what would have happened if I had done nothing. You may recall that they hadn't called me about the turn-in - I had to reach out to them. They had misplaced/lost my file from 3 years ago when both the sales guy and sales manager left. The business manager from then was gone too; in fact, I asked the people dealing with me about him and they never heard of him before. I presume he was only there a short time.

Who knows, maybe I could have driven the Regal for months/years for free!!

abacomike

SPEAKING OF RATINGS

My suggestion to Edmunds would be to have three (3) ratings for each car:

First Rating for 18-35 year olds
Second Rating for 36-55 year olds
Third Rating for 56+ year olds

Each rating group should be composed of a team of men and women from a broad spectrum of the age group they represent. In that way, a buyer would concentrate on the rating given to a car by his/her commensurate age group team.

No one group of raters can possibly represent an age group fairly.  The importance of the criteria used for rating a car should be the same for all cars, but the impact of each criterion should differ by age group.

As an example, a group that rates the Mustang GT would use a set of criteria that is weighted differently depending upon the age group doing the rating.

What may be comfortable for a 21 year old may not be comfortable for a 60 year old and vice a versa.  Handling and cornering may be great for a 30 year old, but not for a 55 year old.  What might be outstanding acceleration to a 65 year old may be sluggish to a 20 year old.

Have I made my point?

robr2

explorerx4 said:

Personally, I like the black wheels. It's a styling thing and not to everyone's tastes. It's like flat botton steering wheels. They were designed for performance cars and now they are becoming common on other cars because they look cool.

fezo

roadburner said:

fezo said:

A couple of Mazda notes. Why doesn't the new 6 get a letter grade? They love it but no grade.

rb - how would a new MS3 fit in all that?

The current rumor as reported in several car magazines is that a new MS3 is @18 months out- it will supposedly be AWD and make @300 hp. Also rumored is a 6 coupe(possibly available in a Mazdaspeed version), an MS2(to take on the Fiesta ST) and -yet again- the oft rumored Miata coupe is mentioned...

Would love several possibilities presented there. Still wish they'd make the 6 in a hatch or even a wagon again. And how about an AWD CX-5 with a stick?

ab348

robr2 said:

They were designed for performance cars and now they are becoming common on other cars because they look cool ugly.

^^^

Sure that wasn't what you meant?

driver100

abacomike said:

@driver100‌

Driver, when you are in sport mode, you start in 1st gear and it holds gears longer thus you use more gas.  In Economy mode, you start in 2nd gear and the car shifts rapidly into 7th gear, thus using less gasoline.

Sport mode is much less economical, however the car handles more stiffly and is more responsive to acceleration and deceleration.  Also, if "START/STOP" is activated, you will also notice improved fuel economy.

For the 3 days I had the E400, my highway mileage at 65 mph was 35.5 mpg using instant setting on my settings menu.  Dead average mpg was 22 mpg.

I am glad you are enjoying the Mercedes.  What does your wife think of it?

Mike, I got used to using "economy" mode for most driving. If I am entering a highway or know I will need more power I use "sport" mode, but I really prefer "sport" much more. It just doesn't make sense to use it in heavy slower moving traffic.

Speaking of that, the E400 is supposed to have fuel with an octane level of at least 91....and that's what I get in Canada. In the US I used Shell and Esso and they have 87, 89 and 93 octane. What gives, is 91 not available?

Since I was covering about 600 miles a day most of my driving was at 75, so it would be difficult to get mileage in the 35 range. If I kept the car in economy mode, and travelled a steady 60 mph, I would probably get 35 mpg. That is astounding for a car of this size and power. I would say mileage is about 15% better than the 535 which was also pretty good considering.

When I was driving today I was thinking the E400 is probably the closest to the perfect car for me. I think it will be for you too. You couldn't get a car with more room where you need it and with more comfort. Many of the controls and electronics will take time to get used to, but they are as easy to operate as possible. I also like the styling. All the cars in this class are nice, but the Benz is particularly nice. The inside is nicely done too.

My wife really likes the comfort, vision, and seating position. When we drove to Florida other years it took a week to recover. We both feel fine after this trip....those seats and the upright seating position make it so much more relaxing.

The only negative my wife had is there is a convenient hold all in the front of the seats. for some reason her legs brush against it. Mine don't, and it is a handy place to store things like sunglasses. But she knew the moment we sat in it that it was the perfect car for us. Funny how that happens.

nyccarguy

I like black wheels on certain cars (Grand Cherokee, White or Black MBs, Challenger, WRX...) not others (MDX). Not sure if I'd ever get a set though.

@roadburner‌

I know they had a MAZDASPEED 6 out a while ago (has it been 10 years?). It was one of those cars that made you drool looking at the specs, but received lukewarm reviews & write ups. What's your take on the original MS6? Not enough power? Wrong gearing?

driver100

isellhondas said:

Anyone else think those black wheels are ugly?

I have to think that for that kind of money there are smarter choices out there.

But...that's me.

I'm with you isell. It looks like some kids from the hood stole the hubcaps. Black wheels like that used to be reserved for the cheapest models.

abacomike

@driver100‌

Most premium gasolines down here in the US are 92-93 octane, however I have come across som 91.  I do not use 89 octane (mid grade) because the engine with twin turbos requires at least 91 octane.  So long as it is 91 or higher octane, it's fine.

At 75 mph, you won't get 35 mpg, but at 65 mph, you should.  The only time you use more gasoline is when the turbos engage.

driver100

stickguy said:

I take legroom specs with a big grain of salt. "real world" depends on how the rear seat is set up (low cushion or elevated) and how far back you have to put the front seats to be comfortable.

if the Malibu has more than the Sonata, it must be a limo.

Nothing in the class IMO beats the passat thought. That is like a stretch version!

Glad you noticed that. For some reason they designed the Passat to have a huge rear seat area. It seems to me the Passat has more room than the 535 or E400. The whole cabin got pushed forward and it has a short hood, but, it makes a great car if you carry passengers around a lot.

houdini1

abacomike said:

SPEAKING OF RATINGS

My suggestion to Edmunds would be to have three (3) ratings for each car:

First Rating for 18-35 year olds
Second Rating for 36-55 year olds
Third Rating for 56+ year olds

Each rating group should be composed of a team of men and women from a broad spectrum of the age group they represent. In that way, a buyer would concentrate on the rating given to a car by his/her commensurate age group team.

No one group of raters can possibly represent an age group fairly.  The importance of the criteria used for rating a car should be the same for all cars, but the impact of each criterion should differ by age group.

As an example, a group that rates the Mustang GT would use a set of criteria that is weighted differently depending upon the age group doing the rating.

What may be comfortable for a 21 year old may not be comfortable for a 60 year old and vice a versa.  Handling and cornering may be great for a 30 year old, but not for a 55 year old.  What might be outstanding acceleration to a 65 year old may be sluggish to a 20 year old.

Have I made my point?

Mike, the best (really the only) rating system is the one that you just employed. Just drive all the suspects and then vote for the one you like best with your wallet.