Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

stever

I always suspected that info was looked up when they screened the callers. Nothing wrong with that, and I didn't yell back at the radio too often when I listened to them. The "car songs" segment was always a good segue into the break.

imidazol97

stever said:

I always suspected that info was looked up when they screened the callers. Nothing wrong with that, and I didn't yell back at the radio too often when I listened to them. The "car songs" segment was always a good segue into the break.

I have listened to several different car repair radio shows. I just prefer the more serious atmosphere of most.

Currently there's one from WJR Detroit 760 with 3 guys who answer problems. Occasionally I think they are wrong. AND there's one from Cincy replacing the Overbeck repair shop owner who seems to be looking things up on a computer while talking to the caller. I suspect he's using one of the mechanics sites that tells what may be the problem based on symptoms. I have the impression they are pay sites meant for folks in the trade.

dino001

Mike, the "lost" key trick is proof to me that Cadillac has still distance to go. No matter how good your cars are, it ishould be unacceptable behavior for even a Kia dealership (sadly it happens, of course), but in a supposedly luxury place, it should be unthinkable. The fact that they still think they can accomplish anything by it, means that they are stuck in old school mind. I simply cannot imagine a Benz, Lexus, or BMW place trying that. Infiniti perhaps.

I always wonder what is the thinking there. Do they really hope they can tire an owner of a CLS, a person with obvious means and awareness, to say, heck I will sign on the dotted line? Or perhaps it is just a payback to say goodbye, you're dead to me, Mr. No-Longer-Customer. Anyway, it's so stupid that I can't understand why anybody would think it's a good idea.

roadburner

imidazol97 said:

stever said:

I always suspected that info was looked up when they screened the callers. Nothing wrong with that, and I didn't yell back at the radio too often when I listened to them. The "car songs" segment was always a good segue into the break.

I have listened to several different car repair radio shows. I just prefer the more serious atmosphere of most.

Currently there's one from WJR Detroit 760 with 3 guys who answer problems. Occasionally I think they are wrong. AND there's one from Cincy replacing the Overbeck repair shop owner who seems to be looking things up on a computer while talking to the caller. I suspect he's using one of the mechanics sites that tells what may be the problem based on symptoms. I have the impression they are pay sites meant for folks in the trade.

They had a syndicated Q&A newspaper column for a while as well; they gave one person a 100% wrong diagnosis of a well-known a BMW suspension issue and told another person power chips/ECU tunes ALWAYS reduced engine life and to never do it. Experts? Not hardly...

stickguy

proving you can't assume too much based on the make, I went to another Honda dealer tonight. complete opposite experience. Honest, open, pleasant, low pressure. and no surprise, they were much more competitive on price!

driver100

dino001 said:

Mike, the "lost" key trick is proof to me that Cadillac has still distance to go. No matter how good your cars are, it ishould be unacceptable behavior for even a Kia dealership (sadly it happens, of course), but in a supposedly luxury place, it should be unthinkable. The fact that they still think they can accomplish anything by it, means that they are stuck in old school mind. I simply cannot imagine a Benz, Lexus, or BMW place trying that. Infiniti perhaps.

I always wonder what is the thinking there. Do they really hope they can tire an owner of a CLS, a person with obvious means and awareness, to say, heck I will sign on the dotted line? Or perhaps it is just a payback to say goodbye, you're dead to me, Mr. No-Longer-Customer. Anyway, it's so stupid that I can't understand why anybody would think it's a good idea.

I don't get it either...but, maybe it works in enough cases that they still do it. They know they have lost the customer anyway. Maybe some people just give in, ot at least it gives them more time to work on the potential customer. The thinking probably goes like this:
As long as they are in the store we have a chance to nail them, once they walk out they are lost.

I also wonder if management has some kind of rule, salepeople have to engage a possible customer for one hour, or you will be fired.

Estimated Departure Time 1 PM today.

imidazol97

driver100 said:

Mike, the "lost" key trick is proof to me that Cadillac has still distance to go. No matter how good your cars are, it ishould be unacceptable behavior for even a Kia dealership (sadly it happens, of course),

I have always carried 2 keys to my car in my pocket. Never lock myself out that way.

If that happened to me, I'd become emphatic about finding it immediately. If not "found," I'd tell them they have until the end of the business day to "find" and deliver the keys to my address by Rush messenger or I'll call the police to report the theft. Then I'd head to my car.

sb55

imidazol97 said:

driver100 said:

Mike, the "lost" key trick is proof to me that Cadillac has still distance to go. No matter how good your cars are, it ishould be unacceptable behavior for even a Kia dealership (sadly it happens, of course),

I have always carried 2 keys to my car in my pocket. Never lock myself out that way.

If that happened to me, I'd become emphatic about finding it immediately. If not "found," I'd tell them they have until the end of the business day to "find" and deliver the keys to my address by Rush messenger or I'll call the police to report the theft. Then I'd head to my car.

This deal of not giving the key back happened to me when I was trying to buy a Silverado 2 months ago. We were in the dealership for 1.5 hours (and were the ONLY customers there on a Thursday afternoon) and had to wait for them to "find" our key for another 1/2 hour. Slimy move, so I bought the truck at a different dealer.
But I do like the 2 key "trick". Maybe next time....

graphicguy

Lost key trick.....I had that happen with the Cadillac dealer that is closest to me. I have had it happen before with other dealerships, some suxury brands, some not. Hate to bring it up, but one was a Mercedes dealer I encountered while helping my sister buy her Benz a few months ago.

My sister had a Jag. She wasn't going to trade it. But, the dealership offered to wash it for her while we looked at the Benz's. Well, after failing to make a deal, they couldn't find her Jag keys. I kind of understood that someone in their service dept may have misplaced them. Until, after about 15 minutes, and continuing to walk us through their new lot and not responding to the salesperson's requests of whether she liked this or that car, he magically found her Jag keys in his pocket. We were not as amused as he seemed to find it. Crossed that dealer immediately off the shopping list.

I don't get it either. All it does is irritate the customer. Why would they want to do that. Do they actually think we'll just hang around and just so happen buy a car while they're looking for the keys?

I'm guessing this is a tactic management tells their sales staff to do. "Keep the customer in the store as long as possible". Again, it seems those types of stupid tactics die hard.

[Deleted User]

Michaell said:

Sorry to hear about your Subaru ... my daughter's car got caught in the same storm, to the tune of about $5000 in damage. It goes into the shop in a few weeks for the repairs. A co-worker of hers had her car totaled.

Like Mike and his MB saga, it looks like your dealer and Subaru corporate are stepping up to do the right thing.

Like our first Outback, the replacement has arrived sooner than they predicted, pulling in last night on the transit carrier. I spent the evening at the dealership going over the details, focusing on the fact I expected Subaru to reimburse me for the Opti-coat and Scotchguard, the dealership to leave the bumper alone, and the self-healing clear bra to be perfectly applied. I'll be scrutinizing this delivery like no customer has before.

Sorry to hear about your daughter's car. I still feel new to Colorado and am adjusting to how many vehicles I see around here resembling golf balls.

Michaell

tyguy said:

Michaell said:

Sorry to hear about your Subaru ... my daughter's car got caught in the same storm, to the tune of about $5000 in damage. It goes into the shop in a few weeks for the repairs. A co-worker of hers had her car totaled.

Like Mike and his MB saga, it looks like your dealer and Subaru corporate are stepping up to do the right thing.

Like our first Outback, the replacement has arrived sooner than they predicted, pulling in last night on the transit carrier. I spent the evening at the dealership going over the details, focusing on the fact I expected Subaru to reimburse me for the Opti-coat and Scotchguard, the dealership to leave the bumper alone, and the self-healing clear bra to be perfectly applied. I'll be scrutinizing this delivery like no customer has before.

Sorry to hear about your daughter's car. I still feel new to Colorado and am adjusting to how many vehicles I see around here resembling golf balls.

Let's hope the dealer doesn't drill holes in the front bumper this time around.

The MINI goes in on the 24th for repairs. Body shop estimates 19 days, but if they can do more PDR than the estimate allowed for, it might be done sooner. Looks like we'll get a rental car after the first week.

[Deleted User]

abacomike said:

@tyguy‌

Sounds like you got things corrected with Suburu.  What I get angry about is that they knowingly sold you a car that was damaged in a hail storm.  When your car was detailed for delivery, they knew exactly what was wrong - they just did not want to lose a sale.

At least they are trying to make it right.

That's a great point and will prompt me to have a discussion with the GM. I want to know who's responsible as well as involve Subaru corporate if there's a chance the Denver distribution hub knowingly sent out damaged cars. If mine was damaged, then it's a safe assumption my car wasn't the only one parked in the same area at the same time with the same damage. It's reprehensible the distribution hub manager wouldn't order a thorough analysis of each car after a hail storm roles through.

dino001

graphicguy said:

Lost key trick.....I had that happen with the Cadillac dealer that is closest to me. I have had it happen before with other dealerships, some suxury brands, some not. Hate to bring it up, but one was a Mercedes dealer I encountered while helping my sister buy her Benz a few months ago.

I guess, I'm wrong (again). My interaction with local MB/BMW stores was such that I just couldn't imagine anybody there thinking it was a good idea. If it happened to me, I may not raise a lot of hell right away, but a scorning letter to the owner/GM would certainly be necessary.

As you said, stupid ideas take a lot of time to die. Hijacking customer's car is probably on the very top of those stupid ideas. How can somebody think, infuriating a customer for no particular reason is any kind of good business, for now and for the future, really beats me. Didn't make a deal today, so alright, one can be disappointed. But pulling crap like this pretty much guarantees no deal in the future. This would probably be last thing I'd say to an idiot, who just did that and probably his boss. It's not that you people just sealed a loss a the deal - you lost number of future deals and I would probably tell about you anybody who wants to listen.

graphicguy

You might find this interesting. It's a little friendly video produced by car dealers explaining why their existence is good for us consumers.

The obvious ommision of cutting the dealer and their cost structure out and how their existence adds to the price of a car as the ultimate "middle man" seems to have escaped them.....

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095260_car-dealers-fire-back-why-negotiating-is-good-for-car-buyers-video

dino001

graphicguy said:

The obvious ommision of cutting the dealer and their cost structure out and how their existence adds to the price of a car as the ultimate "middle man" seems to have escaped them.....

I have no problem with people claiming that they're good for me and putting out videos, or going on TV. I do have a problem with them buying politicians so their "good for you" service is guaranteed by law. People always want free market when they buy things and scream "unfair" when they sell something, regardless whether it's eggs, milk, cars, houses, or labor.

Michaell

graphicguy said:

You might find this interesting. It's a little friendly video produced by car dealers explaining why their existence is good for us consumers.

The obvious ommision of cutting the dealer and their cost structure out and how their existence adds to the price of a car as the ultimate "middle man" seems to have escaped them.....

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095260_car-dealers-fire-back-why-negotiating-is-good-for-car-buyers-video

Also conspicuously omits the fact that most of the dealer profits come from selling used cars, service and parts.

Look at it this way ... if the average transaction price of a car is $30,000, then 1% profit is $300 per unit. Dealer sells 100 cars each month - that's $30,000 each month, or $360K per year. You think that's enough to keep the doors open, the lights on, pay for all the staff?

Hardly.

Sorry, that little video just obfuscates things even more.

abacomike

JAGUAR EXPERIENCE

The closest Jaguar dealership to me is about 5 miles away. I had some trouble finding a parking space at first, but I was directed to park in their parking garage. I was greeted in the garage by a "greeter" who asked for my first name. She then asked me to follow her to the showroom which was actually on the second floor of the dealership. I was offered coffee and a snack and was introduced to a sales representative. The greeter gave him a sheet of paper (I assume with my first name on it and the kind of car I was driving) and he led me to an informal lounge where we sat down. He asked me some qualifying questions, i.e. - have you ever been here before? what are you driving now? what type of car was I interested in? and then he asked me if I was looking to buy or lease?

All those questions were asked in a matter of 1 minute. He was obviously well versed in knowing how to greet a customer and was not pushy or intense. I mentioned I just wanted to look at the XF and the XJ to compare the two vehicles and to make sure I was comfortable in them before I did anything else. He led me to the 2015 XF first. I sat in the car and it was quite tight, much like the Cadillac CTS. I felt a bit closed in and my legs hit the front end of the console. I got out and said to the salesman that this was not for me. He then led me over to a 2015 XJ RWD sedan with a 3.0 L V6. I sat in the car and it was fairly comfortable for me after several seat adjustments. The visibility out the rear window seemed rather limited, perhaps a tad worse than my CLS 550, but I decided that before I made a final decision about this car, I wanted to drive it.

The interior of the car was impeccable - high quality materials, leather, wood, aluminum. The leather was rich and plush as well as well padded. Good sized screen for the NAV and control systems and easy to read instrument cluster. I asked if we could take one of these out for a spin.

I followed him out to the garage and we got into a medium gray sedan with saddle interior and light wood trim (elm I believe he called it). He started it up and explained that their engines were supercharged, not turboed. I asked him if the 6 cylinder engine would be powerful enough to move this quite large car around and he assured me that 340 horsepower and 340 lb/ft of torque would do the trick. We drove the car out onto the street and we switched seats. To be honest, I did not like the limited rear view vision out of the rear view mirror and the car was quite low, very similar to my CLS 550. It handled well, fairly good pickup, but it seemed a bid sluggish - it obviously needed a V8, but the 5.0 Liter V8 had 460 hp, give or take a few, which was much too powerful a car for me - when would I use power like that?

After driving on the expressway, the car seemed to settle down on its haunches quite well and it was a very smooth ride. Cornering, stopping and general handling of the vehicle was excellent. I got out of the car and walked around it slowly, looking for fit and finish, all which were perfect. The trunk seemed bid enough for my needs and the rear seat area was much bigger than my CLS 550. But we don't use the back seat very much, so it was not as important as the front driver and passenger seats - which were more than sufficient - in fact, quite comfortable. The console seemed quite wide - they could easily have narrowed the console more to provide a bid more hip room, but c'est la vie.

The MSRP of the car we drove was $81,000+. TruValue showed $75,800. I asked the salesman if there were any incentives, and he indicated that there was a $3,000 manufacturer to dealer incentive which they would pass on to the customer. That brought the pricing, per Tru Value to $72,800,

After considering the car for quite some time, I came to the conclusion that it was too much like the CLS 550 in terms of limited visibility and comfort. I felt that the V6 was a bit too timid for my tastes considering the weight of the car. The E350 I was driving last week was about as timid and it only had 302 hp. But I felt like I was sitting on the floor and could not get high enough in the seat, even with adjustments, to look over the hood because I kept hitting the top of my head on the sun room guard, much like I do with the CLS 550.

I thanked him for the test drive and told him it just wasn't what I was looking for in terms of visibility and comfort. He told me they also have an XJ8L, but now we are close to $90,000, much too rich for my blood. He tried to sell me on the safety features like blind spot monitors, lane tracking, etc., which would make up for the limited rear visibility - but I told him I had those on my CLS and those features do not make up for not being able to see more of what is behind you.

He walked me over to my CLS and commented on how beautiful it was. I shared with him that at my age, comfort has become a primary concern along with visibility. I told him I was getting out of the CLS because of those issues with the car.

Then I headed over to Buick.

abacomike

BUICK EXPERIENCE

I headed over to the Buick dealership on my way home this morning. I stopped in and the place was empty. I guess they were having some sort of meeting or something, but it allowed me to go over to the LaCrosse and have a seat inside it. Very comfortable and rich feeling. Dash board and instruments seemed quite well arranged for the driver. Trunk was very bid and wide, more than enough room for my needs. Rear seat room was quite good.

About 5 minutes later, a salesman walked over to me and asked if I needed any help. I asked him if I could take one of these for a spin, but it had to be the AWD version because I just didn't like FWD vehicles. He told me he had none of them in stock and said it would take some time to get one on a special order because they usually don't ship AWD's down to south Florida.

That's when his salesman's instincts took over and ruined the rest of the visit. He told me that front wheel drive vehicles handled better and were safer here in Florida because of all the rain we get. He said he would never own a rear wheel drive vehicle because they just don't handle as well and are less safe. What he actually ended up doing was insulting my intelligence. I had already told him I didn't like front wheel drive vehicles (I've owned enough of them throughout the years to be able to know when I like something and when I don't like something) and that's why I wanted to drive an AWD. I told him I drove and XTS yesterday that had AWD and found it much improved over the FWD version, but he kept going back to what he liked and what he felt was safe instead of trying to get me to drive one of his cars with FWD and if I liked the feel and fit of the car, he would do his best to special order one for me or have one shipped down for me.

I wonder why car salesmen do stupid things like that. Why was he trying to talk me out of what I wanted and needed to suit his inventory? These salesmen just don't listen to the customer. If they listened more, they would make more sales.

In any case, I didn't even bother driving the car because it was obvious there were no AWD versions down here. I thanked him for his "input" about FWD and said goodbye.

I would not consider that experience one that I would look upon in the future as satisfying, to say the very least. Would I ever consider a Buick? Probably not when you consider I live in Florida and they just don't ship AWD's to Florida.

To be continued....

stickguy

Probably his instinct. Knew he would never make a deal on an AWD, so took a shot at selling you what he had.

Mr_Shiftright

I guess some salesmen take it on as a challenge to sell you something you said you didn't like and wouldn't buy. Not my idea of a fruitful game plan, but......

ab348

stickguy said:

Probably his instinct. Knew he would never make a deal on an AWD, so took a shot at selling you what he had.

Yeah, I can't imagine they would do any kind of a decent deal with a CLS in trade anyway. Would have to write Mike a big check. Not something they are used to doing.

[Deleted User]

Great write-ups, Mike. I've enjoyed reading about your experiences thus far.

nyccarguy

Mike

Great write up on the Jag! Thanks for sharing!

abacomike

ab348 said:

Probably his instinct. Knew he would never make a deal on an AWD, so took a shot at selling you what he had.

Yeah, I can't imagine they would do any kind of a decent deal with a CLS in trade anyway. Would have to write Mike a big check. Not something they are used to doing.

I never indicated to the salesman that I was trading the CLS in.  In fact, I would not trade the CLS in to the Buick dealership because they could not sell it on their lot.  They would need to sell it directly to a Mercedes dealership, which is what usually happens when you have that kind of car in trade.  Lexus did that when I traded in my E350 for a GS350 a couple of years ago.

The he more I look around, the more I convince myself that the best deal for me is to take the E400 ($72,025 MSRP) and do an even trade with my Mercedes dealership.  I am buying that car for $59,500 + dealer fees and title/tags.  That's over $11,000 under MSRP and over $6,000 below invoice.  Where am I going to get a deal like that on anything else?

The only negative is the long wait for the car to be delivered - December 10th +/- a few days.  Remember, I am not giving them a penny - it's an even trade.

So I have convinced myself that waiting for the new E400 is my best option.

nyccarguy

Definitely Mike. Mid December will be here before you know it. Especially since you are guaranteed an even swap without the value of your trade depreciating one cent. That's a fantastic deal on a great car!

abacomike

I just got a text from my son.  He had his MRI done Tuesday and the radiological oncologist just called him to tell him the malignant tumor has shrunk 25% in the last 5 weeks.  So it would seem that the increased radiation exposure is having a positive affect on reducing the size of the tumor.

The negatives are his severe headaches and the ringing in his ears.  He said the top of his head is all numb and that will not improve because the radiation kills the superficial nerves on top of his head.  He also has burns up there.  But at least the cancer is beginning to respond to the heavier doses of radiation.

Thank God - he is answering all of my prayers and all of your prayers.  Thank you all for your continued prayers on behalf of Justin.

nyccarguy

That's awesome news MIKE!

roadburner

Finally, some GOOD news!!!

stever

Very good to hear.

laurasdada

Good news regarding your son, Mike. Hopefully, continued improvement.

Nice write ups, good to hear the Jag dealer treated you right. I was going to mention that all the chrome, especially the rising/rotating shifter might get a bit warm to the touch in the FLA sun. I was fairly sure you wouldn't find complete comfort in the XF, and not surprised about the visibility in the XJ. A bit of functionality loss for a bit of style gain. The XJ is all aluminum, so while no light weight, it's not as much of a porker as it might have been. I believe it might be (slightly) lighter than my all steel XF.

My father was 6'4" earlier in life (he's 81 and has shrunk just a bit!), this prevented him from owning many a fine automobile. Including, IIRC, an E-Type, with the top up, he didn't fit. He did buy a Datsun 260Z, however, so he was cool for a while! Now drives and loves his '14 Mazda 6. Nice car.

abacomike

@driver100‌

Driver, I would be very interested in hearing how the Mercedes E400 drove on your first day of the trip down to Florida.  Also, how your fuel economy was.  For the 3 days I had an E400, I was averaging 35.5 mpg's at 65 mph sustained speed.  I wonder if you are getting that kind of fuel economy or was my experience merely a fluke.

Hope the trip has been uneventful so far.

graphicguy

Good news about your son, Mike.

I had a conversation with my BMW sales person a few years ago. Understand, he's been at the same dealership for 25+ years. I know about his kids, he knows all about my son, family, etc. He sends me a Christmas gift every year, and a birthday card without fail. NOthing expensive, but he usually sends me a digital subscription to CAr and Driver, Motor Trend, something like that as a gift....even when I'm not driving a BMW.

Anyway, we got into this conversation as I was waiting for my car to be washed. He said the nice thing about selling BMWs was it was easier to make long term relationships and that in turn resulted in more sales (to a customer's family, friends, business associates, neighbors, etc). But, he also said there was very little difference between the compensation selling a Chevrolet or a BMW. As he went on, he explained that there were times he wanted to go to a high volume Chevy dealer (which was also part of his owner's group of stores) where he would likely make more money than selling to a smaller BMW market that had higher margins.

In short, he felt regardless of the brand of car he sold, that relationships, integrity, and customer service were the keys to success...not the brand of vehicle. I actually love buying cars from him. He values my time. Gets to the heart of what it is I want. Gives me excellent sales advice. He's always more than fair and seems to truly care about helping and pleasing me.

I remember more than once him telling me that the car I wastest driving really didn't fit the objectives I outlined to him. And, that while it might take a little time, he would not want me to buy a car that didn't fit my wants exactly. And, that he would seek out something that fit the bill, even if it took months. He did it, too.

abacomike

@graphicguy‌

Like I mentioned earlier today, the most successful sales people in the automobile business are those who listen to their customer's every word to ensure wants, needs and desires are met.

As an example, after asking a customer 4 or 5 key questions and making mental and/or written notes of his/her answers, the salesperson has the ability and knowledge to say, "...I remember you mentioned how important GPS was to you in your new car..." or "...I know you said that a superior audio system is essential..." or "...you told me how important rear seat room was in your next car...!"  In this case, the salesman remembered what was important and then connected those desires or necessities to the features in the car - matching features to benefits - the most important activity a salesman can perform for his customer.

Basically, the salesman is saying to the customer, "...I was listening carefully to what you told me."

ab348

Got my customer satisfaction survey from GM Canada today about the ATS purchase experience. Before I left the dealership witht he car last week, the sales guy reminded me of the necessity for "completely satisfied" answers on all the questions. What a dumb system. When I went through the questions I felt torn, because I wasn't "completely satisfied" with every aspect of the experience. One of the questions was if the dealer had an assortment of vehicles for me to try. Well no, they had *one*. Same with a question about the condition of the dealer's facilities. I would never suggest they are as good as I have seen in other places. So I gave less-than-truthful answers so as not to make a problem for the sales guy.

This is worse than useless, I would think.

oldfarmer50

tyguy said:

Well, Mike, you’re not alone in your car concerns. I’ve had a couple of interesting developments this month. First, we sold the van Tuesday after being listed 10 days and dealing with a few Craig’s List scammers and flakes. We came across a nice couple genuinely grateful for a van so well maintained after they seized the motor in their last car due to an engine oil leak. Selling the van is the good news.

The bad news, we’re returning the 2015 Subaru Outback. When we picked up the vehicle, besides the front bumper being drilled for a license place despite our strict instructions not to, I noticed a couple of minor door dings highlighted in the fading day light. We booked a time to have those worked out with the dealer’s body shop, and during that appointment under the bright shop lights the dealer found literally dozens of shallow dings. They believe the car was caught in a Denver hail storm in late September while sitting in the regional lot awaiting delivery north.

The dealer is working with Subaru to return the vehicle and secure for me a new one in the exact same specification. We’re still working out the details, but from the sounds of things Subaru will provide us a rental vehicle while they re-route an already completed Outback or assemble a new one in Indiana. I’ll be stopping by the dealer tonight to gather more details.

We’re obviously disappointed over the situation and question why the delivery guys didn’t catch this from the start, but the dealer sales team is doing what they can to make the situation better. Hey, at least I get a second chance at a non-drilled bumper.

Aside from this "minor" inconvenience, we've absolutely loved the Outback and I'm stunned over how accurate the safety systems are, including Eyesight, blind spot detection, and rear cross traffic alert. A sincere "thank you" to the Edmunds team that encouraged me to pick the safety options. I don't regret the decision one bit and will not purchase another vehicle without them.

-Ty

I think that's horrible that the dealer tried to sneak a hail damaged vehicle on you. I wonder what would have happened if you had driven it home before discovering the damage.

I guess it pays to do a pre acceptance inspection.

abacomike

ab348 said:

Got my customer satisfaction survey from GM Canada today about the ATS purchase experience. Before I left the dealership witht he car last week, the sales guy reminded me of the necessity for "completely satisfied" answers on all the questions. What a dumb system. When I went through the questions I felt torn, because I wasn't "completely satisfied" with every aspect of the experience. One of the questions was if the dealer had an assortment of vehicles for me to try. Well no, they had *one*. Same with a question about the condition of the dealer's facilities. I would never suggest they are as good as I have seen in other places. So I gave less-than-truthful answers so as not to make a problem for the sales guy. This is worse than useless, I would think.

We've discussed these surveys many times over the years here on Edmunds.  Most of the time, assuming you had a good experience, it is not difficult to give the dealership a perfect rating.

In your case, remember you were buying a 2014 which severely limited availability.  So it certainly was not the dealer's fault.  As for the dealership itself, I believe there are spaces for comments.  So you can give a good survey regarding facilities, but can make suggestions for improving those facilities.

I believe you mentioned that your experiences buying the car were extremely good - unless I missed something.  I agree that causing problems for the salesman would be worse that telling it like it is.

In these cases, unless you are really unhappy, it is best to give them a good survey.  On the other hand, if the experience was not good, you should zonk them big time and service your car somewhere else.

houdini1

abacomike said:

@graphicguy‌

Like I mentioned earlier today, the most successful sales people in the automobile business are those who listen to their customer's every word to ensure wants, needs and desires are met.

As an example, after asking a customer 4 or 5 key questions and making mental and/or written notes of his/her answers, the salesperson has the ability and knowledge to say, "...I remember you mentioned how important GPS was to you in your new car..." or "...I know you said that a superior audio system is essential..." or "...you told me how important rear seat room was in your next car...!"  In this case, the salesman remembered what was important and then connected those desires or necessities to the features in the car - matching features to benefits - the most important activity a salesman can perform for his customer.

Basically, the salesman is saying to the customer, "...I was listening carefully to what you told me."

Great news on your son Mike !

I have never known anyone who has driven a Hyundai Equus or the Kia K-900. It would be great to get a review on one or both of them from you. Especially you.

abacomike

@houdini1‌

Thanks Houdini and everyone else for you kind words and prayers.  Keep those prayers coming - it ain't over until the fat lady sings and he becomes cancer free.

I drove the Equus last year.  It certainly was no BMW 750i or Mercedes S Class as they claim it is.  The fit and finish was mediocre and the engine was powerful but not as torquey as BMW or Mercedes.  I thought the XJ with its 6 cylinder supercharged engine to be superior to the Equus.  

If you want a touch of class on a Cadillac budget(XTS), the Equus is great - but it certainly is no German import in terms of quality and build.

There is a Kia K-900 on display at the mall (white with black leather) but I was unimpressed.  The Equus is much more elegant.  I believe the MSRP on both cars is in the high 60's to low 70's.  

I personally would never never consider either of them because there are high quality German vehicles within $5000 - $10,000 of those two cars that are significantly better built and hold their value significantly better.

imidazol97

The Japanese airbag maker Takata did testing 10 years ago in secret somewhat and then threw out their findings that there were failures in the airbags. On Fox Business they said Takata went to junkyards and retrieved airbags. Then they tested them at night and weekends with a small number of people involved. And they destroyed the incriminating data.

Two years later the first recalls started. However, there are many cars with airbags that can kill. I haven't heard a number of deaths mentioned. Having your airbag "shoot" you with shrapnel is brutal. But when the suggestion is to disable the airbag system in your car until the company and your automaker can get enough airbags to replace them, that sounds serious to me. Probably more serious than GM's botched upgrade to the ignition switch.

houdini1

abacomike said:

@houdini1‌

Thanks Houdini and everyone else for you kind words and prayers.  Keep those prayers coming - it ain't over until the fat lady sings and he becomes cancer free.

I drove the Equus last year.  It certainly was no BMW 750i or Mercedes S Class as they claim it is.  The fit and finish was mediocre and the engine was powerful but not as torquey as BMW or Mercedes.  I thought the XJ with its 6 cylinder supercharged engine to be superior to the Equus.  

If you want a touch of class on a Cadillac budget(XTS), the Equus is great - but it certainly is no German import in terms of quality and build.

There is a Kia K-900 on display at the mall (white with black leather) but I was unimpressed.  The Equus is much more elegant.  I believe the MSRP on both cars is in the high 60's to low 70's.  

I personally would never never consider either of them because there are high quality German vehicles within $5000 - $10,000 of those two cars that are significantly better built and hold their value significantly better.

Thanks Mike. I keep reading very good reviews on these two, but like you, I am somewhat leery at those prices. Someday I will try a test drive just to satisfy my curiosity.

ab348

abacomike said:

We've discussed these surveys many times over the years here on Edmunds.  Most of the time, assuming you had a good experience, it is not difficult to give the dealership a perfect rating.

In your case, remember you were buying a 2014 which severely limited availability.  So it certainly was not the dealer's fault.  As for the dealership itself, I believe there are spaces for comments.  So you can give a good survey regarding facilities, but can make suggestions for improving those facilities.

I believe you mentioned that your experiences buying the car were extremely good - unless I missed something.  I agree that causing problems for the salesman would be worse that telling it like it is.

In these cases, unless you are really unhappy, it is best to give them a good survey.  On the other hand, if the experience was not good, you should zonk them big time and service your car somewhere else.

I did have a good experience and did not want to cause a problem for the salesguy. The problem is that there is no nuance to the survey. I can still be "satisfied" without being "completely satisfied". There is a degree of nuance here that requiring only a top answer misses. I don't know any survey or market research company that would suggest such a metric. The company I worked for did ongoing customer satisfaction surveys. Their scale was 1 to 10 with 10 being "completely satisfied". The metric that we measured was the percent of respondents giving and 8, 9 or 10. That makes sense to me. This method does not. Especially when they tell you beforehand what you need to answer.

dino001

Because they DON'T want to really know how they did, or what to do better. They WANT an opportunity to reneg on the money they dangled in front of the workforce in form of CSI score incentive.

There are real surveys with real questions, real results and real conclusions. And there are CSI questionnaires designed for them to smell their own farts, or weasel out of prior obligations. I really lost interest in all those post-service surveys.

dino001

imidazol97 said:

Probably more serious than GM's botched upgrade to the ignition switch.

I agree, if all what you described is true, people should go to prison. It may surprise you, but this does not surprise me that a Japanese company would do that. There is a cultural issue with Japanese companies, as their leaders often model themselves after samurai, which has big consequences in case of failures. A defeated samurai warrior could not bear shame, so he would kill himself, rather than live to fight another day. Of corse today it is more of civil death rather than physical, so when overlay this mindset with modern western values, it produces either perfection, or fraud with not much room in between. Being so proud, Japanese will try their hardest to be perfect, but when not measure up, they'll often cover it up, because there us no "second life", as opposed in Western culture. The stigma of failure is just too strong. There are numerous examples of most bizzare corporate coverups in Japanese corporations for that very reason. The most spectacular was Olympus and zombie-banks from real estate bust, still unresolved. There is fraud everywhere in the world, but Japanese fraud is a bit different kind and motives. Takata's behavior could happen in the US, too, but it is actually less likely here these days than there.

driver100

abacomike said:

@driver100‌

Driver, I would be very interested in hearing how the Mercedes E400 drove on your first day of the trip down to Florida.  Also, how your fuel economy was.  For the 3 days I had an E400, I was averaging 35.5 mpg's at 65 mph sustained speed.  I wonder if you are getting that kind of fuel economy or was my experience merely a fluke.

Hope the trip has been uneventful so far.

Thanks for asking Mike. We made it to Windsor and we are about a mile from the Ambassador Bridge that goes to the U.S. Hopefully they'll let us cross the border and enter your great country. We'll do that at about 6 a.m., hten if all goes well we'll drive for about 10 to 12 hours and make it to Georgia.

First, I am so glad your son shows improvement. That is a bit of weight removed from your shoulders.

Next, I thoroughly enjoyed your reviews of the Jags and Buick. I wouldn't have to test a car, you look for exactly the things I would look for. I did like that the Jag dealer seemed to be set up to handle business-type people....they knew what they were doing. Buick salesman was useless. Who cares what he likes....if you don't like FWD you don't like it, he's wasting your time. The best salespeople try to find out what you are looking for, then see if the product can suit you.

The E400 is a dream to drive but there are a few things I preferred about the 535. I liked the firmir steering in the 535. I also liked Sport mode more. When you put the 535 in Sport mode it crouches down an inch, the power is boosted, the steering gets tighter...the car morphs into a different vehicle.

It would be nice if you could take the best of both cars. I find the steering is a bit light, but not entirely. There is more firmness than the average car. The seats, vision, comfort level, seating position is all superior in the E400. The car almost steers itself, it seems to want to know where you are going. I love the blind spot warning.......once a police car entered the highway just ahead of me so I was going to move from the left lane into the centre lane. I signalled before looking and the warning light went red and it beeped twice to tell me there was a car beside me in the middle lane.

I haven't been able to really check mileage yet. I usually do it when I buy gas but I had the original tankful in the car and it was idling and going slow during my lessons, so didn't mean much. I also have to learn how to get to it while driving. There are all kinds of graphs and charts relating to gas useage. I'll try to get some information about that.

I like the suspension system and the comfort a lot. The 535 is lower and the seats sink down, wheras in the E400 you are sitting in a more natural upright position. I find it is very restful driving it, probably more than any car I have driven. GPS is kind of funny. Twice now it didn't get the voice command on what should have been easy instructions, so we went to the next step which was to spell the street name or city name. She couldn't understand "Windsor". At least she sounds friendly and isn't as formal as the bmw school marm lady.

Tomorrow will be a long day....will be careful going through Dayton.

driver100

ab348 said:

Got my customer satisfaction survey from GM Canada today about the ATS purchase experience. So I gave less-than-truthful answers so as not to make a problem for the sales guy.

This is worse than useless, I would think.

I haven't got a survey yet but my Mercedes salesman said to please give him a 10, he needs 10, nothing less. I can't fault him, so I would give him a good score anyway....but, it is a bit much that they have to beg you for a perfect score.

driver100

abacomike said:

@houdini1‌

Thanks Houdini and everyone else for you kind words and prayers.  Keep those prayers coming - it ain't over until the fat lady sings and he becomes cancer free.

I drove the Equus last year.  It certainly was no BMW 750i or Mercedes S Class as they claim it is.  The fit and finish was mediocre and the engine was powerful but not as torquey as BMW or Mercedes.  I thought the XJ with its 6 cylinder supercharged engine to be superior to the Equus.  

If you want a touch of class on a Cadillac budget(XTS), the Equus is great - but it certainly is no German import in terms of quality and build.

There is a Kia K-900 on display at the mall (white with black leather) but I was unimpressed.  The Equus is much more elegant.  I believe the MSRP on both cars is in the high 60's to low 70's.  

I personally would never never consider either of them because there are high quality German vehicles within $5000 - $10,000 of those two cars that are significantly better built and hold their value significantly better.

I read a review of the 2015 Genesis and they said it is hugely improved and is a great value. In Canada a fully equipped Genesis would be $55K, a comparable BMW or Mercdes would cost $77K with the same equipment. The reviewers final analyses was similar to what you said.
The bmw and Mercedes are better in every way, but he doesn't think they are $22k better. Where does that leave us?

abacomike

@ab348
@driver100

You have to remember that a perfect CSI returned survey usually means the salesman will receive a spiff or a bonus at the end of the month.

When I worked at Lexus, I would receive a $500 bonus if I received 6 or more 100% surveys each month.  That extra income is important to the average salesman.

driver100

dino001 said:

imidazol97 said:

Probably more serious than GM's botched upgrade to the ignition switch.

I agree, if all what you described is true, people should go to prison. It may surprise you, but this does not surprise me that a Japanese company would do that. There is a cultural issue with Japanese companies, as their leaders often model themselves after samurai, which has big consequences in case of failures. A defeated samurai warrior could not bear shame, so he would kill himself, rather than live to fight another day. Of corse today it is more of civil death rather than physical, so when overlay this mindset with modern western values, it produces either perfection, or fraud with not much room in between. Being so proud, Japanese will try their hardest to be perfect, but when not measure up, they'll often cover it up, because there us no "second life", as opposed in Western culture. The stigma of failure is just too strong. There are numerous examples of most bizzare corporate coverups in Japanese corporations for that very reason. The most spectacular was Olympus and zombie-banks from real estate bust, still unresolved. There is fraud everywhere in the world, but Japanese fraud is a bit different kind and motives. Takata's behavior could happen in the US, too, but it is actually less likely here these days than there.

Interesting analysis of Japanese culture. I can believe it, seems to be accurate. Honor is to avoid admitting problem, but, if you do get caught you have to fall on your sword.

driver100

imidazol97 said:

The Japanese airbag maker Takata did testing 10 years ago in secret somewhat and then threw out their findings that there were failures in the airbags. On Fox Business they said Takata went to junkyards and retrieved airbags. Then they tested them at night and weekends with a small number of people involved. And they destroyed the incriminating data.

Two years later the first recalls started. However, there are many cars with airbags that can kill. I haven't heard a number of deaths mentioned. Having your airbag "shoot" you with shrapnel is brutal. But when the suggestion is to disable the airbag system in your car until the company and your automaker can get enough airbags to replace them, that sounds serious to me. Probably more serious than GM's botched upgrade to the ignition switch.

Probably could be more serious than GMs ignition switch - I think I heard 14 million cars could be affected.

I do wonder if a company like Takata can survive something like this. The cost will be enormous if they start replacing airbags.

dino001

abacomike said:

When I worked at Lexus, I would receive a $500 bonus if I received 6 or more 100% surveys each month.  That extra income is important to the average salesman.

Of course even if the points are off the store (like choice of vehicles, or ambience, or receptionist not greeting a customer), the salseguy still loses the bonus. Swell.