Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

stickguy

Some things are much easier, and cost effective, to build in from scratch". But not for a retrofit

ab348

28firefighter said:

Yes. Mini splits are very efficient and do a great job, but the hardware is costly. If you don’t need significant duct work done and already have an existing furnace, it’s much more cost effective to add central air. 

When I was shopping 2 years ago, Daiken had a model that used the very efficient mini-split technology as an add-on to an existing FHA furnace. Back then they were the only ones who did that, not sure if that has changed since.

imidazol97

In my case two summers ago, the total replacement made sense because the interior blower motor was several years old and less energy efficient than the new unit's direct current motor. The A-coil for the heat pump also had 23 years of age on it. Just replacing the outside unit was not the right thing to do.

@GraphiGuy
The neighbor now has a Goodman outside unit. The wholesaler where the shadetree guy got the first heat pump helped by replacing the original unit that failed with a different brand. And from what I found the Goodman brand is Japanese owned by operates as a company here, and the reputation they have has been earned.

I think the neighbor had a Haier brand that failed early but it may have been a different one. I'll ask him when I see him outside... The name stuck with me because we had bought a tiny refrigerator for my wife's classroom that was Haier.

jmonroe

28firefighter said:

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I’m fried from the day (we are doing our will right now, too). Will provide some thoughts and additional detail tomorrow. 

Will? I can solve that problem too. Do what our meani poster buddy @driver100 does
...make sure you spend it all.

jmonroe

28firefighter

jmonroe said:

28firefighter said:

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I’m fried from the day (we are doing our will right now, too). Will provide some thoughts and additional detail tomorrow. 

Will? I can solve that problem too. Do what our meani poster buddy @driver100 does
...make sure you spend it all.

jmonroe

HAHA. The money is not the problem - we're young and our estate is relatively small. The issue causing trouble is who gets custody of our son.

driver100

jmonroe said:

28firefighter said:

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I’m fried from the day (we are doing our will right now, too). Will provide some thoughts and additional detail tomorrow. 

Will? I can solve that problem too. Do what our meani poster buddy @driver100 does
...make sure you spend it all.

jmonroe

Almost right JMonroe. Best to leave them with a few unpaid bills too, then they will really remember you.

jipster

graphicguy said:

I went again with a Lennox heat pump. My last one was 23 years old and I should have replaced it when a control valve needed replacement for $400 or so months earlier. The original Lennox that was installed with the house lasted longer than average. The neighboring home, built a year earlier than ours still has the original Lennox unit. LOL I'm not sure what the problem about Lennox is in the MSM, but mine is well engineered and works with the Honeywell digital thermostat to run for about 30 seconds after heat cycles off to glean all the heat from the system before shutting off the blower. Backup heating and defrost cycles are hardly perceptible. That wsn't true for the previous two units. Is Goodman related to the Haier units that came into the US market from China was it several years back. Another neighbor had a shadetree mechanic replace his heat pump and it was a Goodman or Haier. First unit failed early. Replaced by another cheapie. Maybe it's a Goodman now. I should sneak over and see what brand it is. Edit: Goodman now owned by Daikin, a Japanese company.

Goodman is made in Houston, TX. The one I had installed 4-5 years ago with the new A/C. Couldn't be happier. You won't see them advertise, so I think the dealers who install them tend to be a little more cost effective than TRANE, Carrier, Bryant, etc. The quality of the fabrication and installation is at least as important as the unit. I'd see if you have any Goodman dealers in your area and at least get a quote from them. Mixing-matching brands really doesn't matter. They all function more or less the same and are similar in the way they are manufactured.

I had gotten quotes on HVAC systems last year. Current Goodman is 17 years old. Had system checked, was only 1/2 pound low on refrigerant. No harm, no foul. Hope to get as many years as possible out of current system. If it breaks down, I'll be ready to move.

OP was writing about cost. Most of the bigger companies are going to be several  thousand dollars more, due to overhead. The small independent guys can save some money. Like jmonroe, a friend installed a high efficiency Goodman himself...he works on computer systems, and said it wasn't that difficult. 

With HVAC systems (Goodman, Carrier, Trane, Amana, etc), I understand they all use the same suppliers for most of their parts used (compressor, condensors...whatever). So the most important aspect of buying a new system is getting a competent installer.

jipster

jmonroe

jipster said:

graphicguy said:

imidazol97 said:

I went again with a Lennox heat pump. My last one was 23 years old and I should have replaced it when a control valve needed replacement for $400 or so months earlier. The original Lennox that was installed with the house lasted longer than average. The neighboring home, built a year earlier than ours still has the original Lennox unit. LOL

I'm not sure what the problem about Lennox is in the MSM, but mine is well engineered and works with the Honeywell digital thermostat to run for about 30 seconds after heat cycles off to glean all the heat from the system before shutting off the blower.

Backup heating and defrost cycles are hardly perceptible. That wsn't true for the previous two units.

Is Goodman related to the Haier units that came into the US market from China was it several years back. Another neighbor had a shadetree mechanic replace his heat pump and it was a Goodman or Haier. First unit failed early. Replaced by another cheapie. Maybe it's a Goodman now. I should sneak over and see what brand it is.

Edit: Goodman now owned by Daikin, a Japanese company.

Goodman is made in Houston, TX. The one I had installed 4-5 years ago with the new A/C. Couldn't be happier. You won't see them advertise, so I think the dealers who install them tend to be a little more cost effective than TRANE, Carrier, Bryant, etc.

The quality of the fabrication and installation is at least as important as the unit.

I'd see if you have any Goodman dealers in your area and at least get a quote from them.

Mixing-matching brands really doesn't matter. They all function more or less the same and are similar in the way they are manufactured.

I had gotten quotes on HVAC systems last year. Current Goodman is 17 years old. Had system checked, was only 1/2 pound low on refrigerant. No harm, no foul. Hope to get as many years as possible out of current system. If it breaks down, I'll be ready to move.

OP was writing about cost. Most of the bigger companies are going to be several  thousand dollars more, due to overhead. The small independent guys can save some money. Like jmonroe, a friend installed a high efficiency Goodman himself...he works on computer systems, and said it wasn't that difficult. 

With HVAC systems (Goodman, Carrier, Trane, Amana, etc), I understand they all use the same suppliers for most of their parts used (compressor, condensors...whatever). So the most important aspect of buying a new system is getting a competent installer.

What you said about the name brand guys is exactly what I have heard for years. I didn't make this up, I got this info from talking to people knowledgeable about A/C systems and even a few installers. It was an installer who told me that the scroll type compressors that have been touted for years now is only made by 2 companies and he thought they were equally good. I can't remember now which name brand units used which ones but it didn't make any difference to me when I bought my Lennox furnace and A/C systems in 2008.

jmonroe

Mr_Shiftright

oldfarmer50 said:

sandman_6472 said:

Waiting to hear if my Golf will be totaled, but it's looking that way. Did some test driving today with more to follow on Thursday. This is not the right timing for me but might not have any choice soon. Just hope to get a decent payout as my Golf was, is, in excellent condition except for the damage the other kid caused. Coming a couple years too early but when life throws you lemons, best to just make lemonade and enjoy the taste.
More details will follow eventually, I only have the rental for 30 days, until the 28th then it's on my dime. I am not a happy camper right now and it's unfortunate because getting a new vehicle should be something fun. We are so far from fun right now though!!

The Sandman

It's incredible that the kid could get going fast enough coming out of a parking spot to do such damage. Or am I not understanding how it happened?

There are some situations where a car gets hit in the worst possible place and at just the right angle to do the most damage.

driver100

Jipster and JMonroe are right on. I had a sneaky suspicion what they said makes sense. So, I found this interesting explanation;

First let’s talk about what other brands also manufacture the same product under different names;

Goodman Manufacturing in Houston, Texas makes all Goodman, Daikin, Amana, and Franklin branded air conditioners. Did you pay extra for the Amana name? It’s a Goodman!

Carrier Corporation (who recently announced they were shutting down their US based manufacturing facility and moving all manufacturing to Mexico next year) makes Carrier, Bryant, Day & Night, Payne, Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, KeepRite, and Tempstar.

Rheem Manufacturing makes Rheem, Ruud, and Weatherking.

Nortek Global “white labels” a lot of brands (same machine, different sticker) including; Maytag, Westinghouse, Broan, Frigidaire, Nutone, and Mammoth…to name a few. Thought about that Maytag Repairman commercial when you were buying that Maytag air conditioner? You own a Nortek!

Most manufacturers are all using third party components from the same manufacturers as well. For example, odds are General Electric or Dayton made the condenser fan motor in your air conditioner, Copeland probably made your compressor, and Sporlan most likely made your TXV (Thermostatic Expansion Valve) and filter/driers.

The article says, if is best to choose a good contractor/installer, that is the big difference.

FULL ARTICLE

driver100

Mr_Shiftright said:

oldfarmer50 said:

sandman_6472 said:

Waiting to hear if my Golf will be totaled, but it's looking that way. Did some test driving today with more to follow on Thursday. This is not the right timing for me but might not have any choice soon. Just hope to get a decent payout as my Golf was, is, in excellent condition except for the damage the other kid caused. Coming a couple years too early but when life throws you lemons, best to just make lemonade and enjoy the taste.
More details will follow eventually, I only have the rental for 30 days, until the 28th then it's on my dime. I am not a happy camper right now and it's unfortunate because getting a new vehicle should be something fun. We are so far from fun right now though!!

The Sandman

It's incredible that the kid could get going fast enough coming out of a parking spot to do such damage. Or am I not understanding how it happened?

There are some situations where a car gets hit in the worst possible place and at just the right angle to do the most damage.

And it doesn't take much these days to do some very serious damage. Tolerances are very close, putting a car back together again can be very expensive. We are almost at the stage where it is like a flat screen TV....cheaper to buy a new one than get the damaged one fixed.

stickguy

Plus crumple zones are designed to sacrifice themselves in an accident. Not get put back like they were to start.

jmonroe

@28firefighter,

Let me start off by saying I disagree with the installer who told you that "it isn't crucial" that you should have a multi speed blower because you live in the mild climate of Seattle. I guess defining "crutial" is a matter of how you want to live with the laws of physics. The cold air your A/C produces in Seattle is, practically speaking; the same cold air that my A/C produces in the Burgh and is the same as the cold air that is produced by any A/C system, in any city, worldwide. Simply put, cold air is heavier than warm air and that is why you will WANT a higher speed blower to move it so that you get the most comfort from your A/C.

OK, having said that, only @28firefighter needs to stick around now because I have a firsthand story about what I just said. If anyone else is going to continue reading this post don't say I didn't warn you.

As I said in a previous post I myself installed, in the latter 70's, a Sears A/C unit in my first house that I had built in 1969. This was a split entry house or a raised ranch, whatever you want to call it. It was a 3 bedroom, 1200 square foot joint not including the basement family room. As much as I would have wanted whole house A/C, I couldn't afford it at that time. The furnace that the builder installed was a 100K BTU Carrier unit and since A/C was not being installed then, the blower motor was a single speed with a pulley that turned a belt that turned the blower. The blower speed was designed to move only the furnace warm air and the motor RPM and pulley were sized as such. Now for when I installed the A/C in the 70's:

I knew I had to get either a new blower that had a self contained motor with multiple speeds or get a new motor with two speeds. High for A/C and low for the furnace air. Since the cost of a new multi speed blower from Carrier was a little more than twice the cost of a GE two speed motor, I went with the 2 speed motor. As I was about to order the motor, I learned that a woman that worked in the company library was married to a guy that worked for a large wholesale electrical supplier. She said she was almost positive that her husband could get me the GE motor for a good bit less than the price I would have had to pay at the retailer I was considering. She called her husband, on the spot, and she was right. I could get the 2 speed GE motor for a ridiculously low price. So I told her husband to give it to his wife and I'd get it from her the next day and I'd give her a check. Her husband said, "wait a second, I just noticed that we are out of stock of that motor and we won't be getting it in for at least a week to 10 days. That is probably because this is the A/C time of year and we ran out. So, do you want to wait or go to your retailer"? The cost was too good to pass up so I told him whenever it came in to give it to his wife and I'd get it the next day.

But I'll have an A/C system ready to go in 2 days so now what are you going to do jmonroe? Easy answer to that dilemma, I'll just use the motor I already have because it has to be better than having no A/C, and it was. We were comfy compared to no A/C and I had time to see how well a low speed blower works for A/C. Like I said, it worked but when the new motor arrived I just moved around some wires and WOW, high speed IS a LOT better for A/C. I just proved to myself that everything I had ever learned about the density of air was true.

So there you have it, even I couldn't change the laws of physics, but I tried to for about 2 weeks. You're free to try it in Seattle but I'm willing to bet @abacomike's S450 that you ain't going to be any more successful that I was.

Good luck with your choices.

jmonroe

tbirdmarco

 Thanks for the prescription Mike about the Foral one above 

tbirdmarco

 Sounds like he has it all figured out driver as long as the inspection goes well very cool plan he has the coming months white colors beautiful 

tbirdmarco

 Hang in there Cindy things are gonna work out you have the right attitude from what you posted above 

tbirdmarco

 The main thing is that you are OK the car can always be replaced 

tbirdmarco

 Old former that’s awesome wow so they have tons of arrangements with the course that they have their fleet all very interesting to know 

qbrozen

Truecar has the Stinger GT2 at $3339 off. $46,762 net.
Still a little high for me. I think $45k makes sense, but only because I paid $49k for my CTS V Sport. And, unfortunately, they make you step up to the GT2 trim to get the top-spec seats, which are one of the most important features of a car for me. If it weren't for the seats, the GT1 would be fine for me, which comes in at $41,400 on truecar.

roadburner

qbrozen said:

Truecar has the Stinger GT2 at $3339 off. $46,762 net.
Still a little high for me. I think $45k makes sense, but only because I paid $49k for my CTS V Sport. And, unfortunately, they make you step up to the GT2 trim to get the top-spec seats, which are one of the most important features of a car for me. If it weren't for the seats, the GT1 would be fine for me, which comes in at $41,400 on truecar.

My local Kia dealer has 8 GT2s in stock- all AWD.
Meh.

dino001

There are 26 Stingers within just 15 miles from my house (2 dealerships), 59 within 25 miles (2 more). 19 GT2, 9 GT1, 6 GT, 22 base and premium level with 2.0 engine. I'm sure ADMs are distant memory by now, if any of those characters had one on the car.

qbrozen

Now ya made me check. My closest dealer has 30 of them, and the only RWD are a few base models.

dino001

qbrozen said:

Now ya made me check. My closest dealer has 30 of them, and the only RWD are a few base models.

Similar here - vast majority of GTs (any number), are AWD, but there is a few of RWD, too - including one red GT2.

driver100

Is it odd that there are so many Stingers in stock? Don't they usually start off slow to build excitement, and to try and keep the price high? I guess they have a marketing strategy but, I don't think it is the best one for a new model....if you want to create demand.

dino001

driver100 said:

Is it odd that there are so many Stingers in stock? Don't they usually start off slow to build excitement, and to try and keep the price high? I guess they have a marketing strategy but, I don't think it is the best one for a new model....if you want to create demand.

I think if the product is good, the "strategy" should not matter as much. Chrysler was a champion of building excitement (usually on the looks) and getting low initial production (PT Cruiser, Charger, Challenger, 300), having people line up and pay ADMs just to let down six of twelve months later on the total quality of the product. And the word would spread quickly, so whatever they gained by withholding the production, would be lost rather quickly. I guess the Korean overlords decided to crank out the volume from the start. I'm actually rooting for it to succeed, at least in relative terms, so they keep making it. Don't mind discounts, it's Kia after all, their entire MO is discounts. I'm sure they have it in their unit economics.

tbirdmarco

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_7Xh3_LL77A

qbrozen

dino001 said:

Similar here - vast majority of GTs (any number), are AWD, but there is a few of RWD, too - including one red GT2.

Is it red on red? I would pick that or the blue on gray.

tbirdmarco

 Punzel stingers over here too as well look a couple of weeks ago one of peace models and GT’s really boring colors very few interesting colors your average white black silver and gray 

tbirdmarco

I have to see one in person the New York auto shows coming up in two weeks you know I’m gonna be there like always since 2003 think I started going to check the stinger inventory in a little while if not tonight will do it at some point this week just because of curiosity what I do. Often during the week with a ton of different car models just cause I can find interesting different colors what the heck good start looking so in August when my mom asked to get something have a few lined up for her told her she’s gonna start doing a bunch of test drives soon to shorten the list

dino001

qbrozen said:

dino001 said:

Similar here - vast majority of GTs (any number), are AWD, but there is a few of RWD, too - including one red GT2.

Is it red on red? I would pick that or the blue on gray.

Red on black.

driver100

Marco....I love your T-Bird. I like all the models from 55 to 64.

Mr_Shiftright

qbrozen said:

Now ya made me check. My closest dealer has 30 of them, and the only RWD are a few base models.

The Stinger ads are pretty bizarre---lots of macho spins and spills, sharp exhaust notes, air of fog and mystery---you know, your average Kia owner.

Jalopnik liked the Stinger and praises it--I'm not sure if that's good or bad, but I haven't driven one yet so can't say if it's sizzle or steak.

In any event it'll be competing price wise with some interesting iron from Europe.

qbrozen

I've read pretty much nothing but praise for the Stinger. Some better praise than others, but nobody I have read seems to think it is not worth the price. 

Re: NY auto show: I may actually get to go this year. As the wife pointed out, I'm working in NYC once or twice a week so I can go after work. 

tbirdmarco

 Thank you driver 100 I like the 61 to 63 like I have in the 64 to 66 most personally 

tbirdmarco

 Just today search for you stingers again you me in the 20 mile radius found 67 of them a bunch of bees models with all wheel drive bunch of premiums and GT‘s a couple of GT twos the most expensive would be happy with the GT or premium all worn colors except for three 

ab348

qbrozen said:

I've read pretty much nothing but praise for the Stinger. Some better praise than others, but nobody I have read seems to think it is not worth the price.

New sporty car, all the reviews are positive for the first 6 months. It's some sort of auto journo rule.

qbrozen

Oh, I'm sure you know that isn't true. Plenty of cars have been called out as failures at launch.

tbirdmarco

 Cool to be hopefully since you’re in New York City today’s week able to go after work think it starts on the 30th Friday good Friday hopefully I’m gonna go that day maybe Saturday will see not sure yet 

tbirdmarco

 True some models call out for the beginning being like master nothing special some high praise all the pens and also if they’re biased towards that brand is a big influence to most likely if I had to guess 

driver100

ab348 said:

qbrozen said:

I've read pretty much nothing but praise for the Stinger. Some better praise than others, but nobody I have read seems to think it is not worth the price.

New sporty car, all the reviews are positive for the first 6 months. It's some sort of auto journo rule.

I agree. This always happens when a new sporty type car comes out. I remember when we were looking for a 1999 car, we wanted a C Class but heard so much about the new fast Maxima. It was fast, it was nicely made, but, it was kind of a flash in the pan. Meanwhile, that C240 would still be a great car today.

driver100

Ford is recalling 1.4 million vehicles because the steering wheels can become loose and even come off while driving.
The automaker says it is aware of two accidents and one injury that may have been caused by the problem.

That's not a good sign....when the steering wheel can come off in your hands!

CNN Ford RECALL

dino001

Mr_Shiftright said:

qbrozen said:

Now ya made me check. My closest dealer has 30 of them, and the only RWD are a few base models.

The Stinger ads are pretty bizarre---lots of macho spins and spills, sharp exhaust notes, air of fog and mystery---you know, your average Kia owner.

Jalopnik liked the Stinger and praises it--I'm not sure if that's good or bad, but I haven't driven one yet so can't say if it's sizzle or steak.

In any event it'll be competing price wise with some interesting iron from Europe.

Don't forget the Emerson Fittipaldi at the race track ad. I'm sure lot's of Americans know who this gentleman is, considering how long it took for F1 to get its (hopefully) permanent home track in the US. Stinger ads are clearly not directed to the same audience as those hamster Soul ads (which I find pretty entertaining, BTW).

To me the biggest obstacle in Stinger sales will be the dealer network. Those characters are used to push cheap stuff to subprime buyers and they act accordingly. They get very confused when they meet a buyer who doesn't shop payments. Any time I was in such a place (this is not limited to Kia, but all "donwmarket" brands), I have always hard time to get across with the salespeople and their stupid questions from their sales manual (you know "what do I need to do to make you buy today", "what is the payment you want", etc. crap) and get pretty discouraged to continue. It always ends up me wanting to leave within first 5 minutes. I never had a problem like that in mid-to upmarket brand places - there I can focus on the product and the salespeople give me enough time to process. I would imagine, to have a fighting chance, the Stinger needs to appeal to financially secure buyers, but they can be simply chased away by those "buy it today" tactics. This is especially true for GT trims. I'm just not sure if the dealers are ready to sell such vehicles.

Another issue may be overproduction. This is more-less niche model. I just don't see how it can support volumes if Kia keeps pumping the production at rate these cars are coming to dealers lots. However, if they drop from $50k+ sticker to low 40s final transaction, or get those lease support deals with 36 month residuals at 60%+ level, they may sell at those numbers. But then how will Kia make any money?

I hope it will stick around (hopefully improve) at least to time I'm ready to replace my 430 GC, so I can actually try it out.

graphicguy

Mr_Shiftright said:

qbrozen said:

Now ya made me check. My closest dealer has 30 of them, and the only RWD are a few base models.

The Stinger ads are pretty bizarre---lots of macho spins and spills, sharp exhaust notes, air of fog and mystery---you know, your average Kia owner.

Jalopnik liked the Stinger and praises it--I'm not sure if that's good or bad, but I haven't driven one yet so can't say if it's sizzle or steak.

In any event it'll be competing price wise with some interesting iron from Europe.

Was thinking about the availability of the Kia Stinger last night and came up with other cars I would much rather have than the high zoot Stinger for around the same price....

1. Audi S3
2. Mercedes CLA AMG
3. Mustang GT convertible (for a lot less money)
4. Camaro SS (for a lot less money)
5. BMW M240i

I think the Stinger is going to have to get some big price cuts for people like us to write a check.

ab348

I wonder if this is a Ford?

https://youtu.be/Nra4mhhSZWc

ab348

qbrozen said:

Oh, I'm sure you know that isn't true. Plenty of cars have been called out as failures at launch.

Sedans or SUVs? Sometimes. GM or Chrysler cars? Sure. Sporty cars? Not so much.

dino001

graphicguy said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

qbrozen said:

Now ya made me check. My closest dealer has 30 of them, and the only RWD are a few base models.

The Stinger ads are pretty bizarre---lots of macho spins and spills, sharp exhaust notes, air of fog and mystery---you know, your average Kia owner.

Jalopnik liked the Stinger and praises it--I'm not sure if that's good or bad, but I haven't driven one yet so can't say if it's sizzle or steak.

In any event it'll be competing price wise with some interesting iron from Europe.

Was thinking about the availability of the Kia Stinger last night and came up with other cars I would much rather have than the high zoot Stinger for around the same price....

1. Audi S3
2. Mercedes CLA AMG
3. Mustang GT convertible (for a lot less money)
4. Camaro SS (for a lot less money)
5. BMW M240i

I think the Stinger is going to have to get some big price cuts for people like us to write a check.

Based on speed and handling alone, perhaps, but none of those cars offer anywhere near the utility. Your comparison is like "I would rather buy a fast small coupe than a midsize hatchback", or I like 3-series over Honda Pilot (well, perhaps not that egregious, but you know what I mean). Plus your Mercedes, Audi and BMW comparisons are not "totally honest", as it would take another 10 grand to bring the cabin equipment to par with the Stinger (especially Benz).

fintail

Every time I see a racing driver hawking a mainstream car, I think of this:

https://youtu.be/u4Ws_Bp7WYA

(I have yet to see a Tempo in real life with those cool wheels)

Those into motorsport will know Fittipaldi, but people in general, I doubt it. Of course, the Stinger, especially in fancier trim, isn't meant to be for the average buyer. But still, these spots can be iffy - who believes a millionaire celebrity in his field drives one of these or is wild about it?

Definitely agree about the dealers and apparent production numbers. Most of the dealers in my area have a rep, one that precedes them with their awful-at-best TV spots. Many who are used to laying down 50K+ on a car will be put off. And the GT2 is in ample supply at all local dealers, maybe meaning it is being overproduced. I smell some lease deals popping up in a few months, which may be the way to do it.

I'd also link Stinger to Audi Sportback or fancier 4er GC. You're going to pay more for the Germans, but most will do it just for the badge, even if they are down on power. When you have the badge, ideas like competing based on size or utility go out the window - interior quality matters a lot, and these are emotional purchases.

dino001 said:

Don't forget the Ernest Fittipaldi at the race track ad. I'm sure lot's of Americans know who this gentleman is, considering how long it took for F1 to get its (hopefully) permanent home track in the US. Stinger ads are clearly not directed to the same audience as those hamster Soul ads (which I find pretty entertaining, BTW).


I hope it will stick around (hopefully improve) at least to time I'm ready to replace my 430 GC, so I can actually try it out.

fintail

A C240 (2001+ model year, W203) can be an unloved car, early ones are not from the zenith of MB quality. The prior equivalents would be a C230 or C280. Maxima was new for MY 2000, and is kind of awkward looking to me. IIRC, these had issues with the projector headlights being stolen.

driver100 said:

<

I agree. This always happens when a new sporty type car comes out. I remember when we were looking for a 1999 car, we wanted a C Class but heard so much about the new fast Maxima. It was fast, it was nicely made, but, it was kind of a flash in the pan. Meanwhile, that C240 would still be a great car today.

stickguy

The tempo (and ford overall) being the best built NA cars says a lot about the state of car world in 1984.