Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

driver100

thebean said:

dino001 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

@thebean -- you bring up an interesting point that also relates to luxury cars. A car can be beautifully engineered with regards to "function" but not necessarily to longterm reliability. Most people who buy "the best" generally trade out sooner than those looking for extended durability. They buy the features, the prestige, the latest tech, and the most efficient operation.

Engineering is about prioritizing the outcomes. A ho-hum product could also be a result of great engineering if the priorities were low cost, cheap maintenance, high reliability at expense of looks, peak performance, or great number of features. Best example would be Formula 1, or any other racing: engineers will prioritize performance and give enough longevity so it fall apart two laps after the completion of the design race period. Driver's comfort will have very little or even no consideration in the design. Tires would last only hundred miles and be shredded to pieces.

Mercedes-Benz vehicles appear to be engineered with a stated objective to perform certain way, but at expense of maintenance and/or longevity of certain components and owner's cost does not seem to be a large consideration. I'm not saying I agree with that philosophy, but that's what they seem to have decided. So it would be "poor engineering" if those vehicles did not achieve their stated objectives. If the owner's expectations are not met, cause they were different (say the owner expected low maintenance ever-lasting vehicle) that may not be poor engineering, rather poor communication and messaging to the customer regarding the objectives. Still a failure, just different kind.

That's some excellent points. When I bought my two MB's in the 90's, I really thought they would be extremely reliable vehicles, and I was disappointed when they were not. No one at the dealership communicated that they were engineered for performance and driving experience. They just said that a Benz would be a great car for us and we would be happy. My fault for not communicating my careabouts to them. When the tires only lasted 20K miles with virtually no spirited driving, they said, "Well, Mercedes' eat tires", like I should have known that. Was much happier with the Lexus they replaced one of them.

Different cars for different wants.

That probably was the tires....if driven normally it shouldn't make that much difference about tire wear. They may have been a performance tire - very soft rubber, but in that case they probably performed better than harder tires.

I agree though....depends on your priorities - that is why they have MBs and Lexus's.

driver100

imidazol97 said:

Looks like it's been abused...

Looks like it has hit the curb about 274 times!

andres3

For educational purposes, looking back at the pics, it doesn't look like a regulation 6" asphalt curb. Maybe 4.5", and slanted not vertical. Also hit the rounded corner, but to no avail other than avoiding broadsiding the Mazda apparently jutting out onto the road from the driveway to the left without looking to their right (remember I was traveling into the camera location direction; so if your looking at the first pic reverse left and right). The first picture is looking back from where the car ended up. You can see the broken tire left a rubber line on the ground; however, I didn't have to travel that far after the impact, I did so so I could leave a lane open on the narrow road and not block traffic while still minimizing rim damage by driving on it.

cdnpinhead

Well, the drama teacher's government isn't going to give up much information very quickly if it doesn't fit the template. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out. In any event, it's a tragedy -- all we're dealing with here is motive and how to prevent such things in the future.

andres3

driver100 said:

imidazol97 said:

Looks like it's been abused...

Looks like it has hit the curb about 274 times!

That's what happens when you hit a curb at moving speed. There's also dirt and dust on both sides of the curb. The tire was perfectly fine before the Mazda pulled out of the driveway forcing me to either hit them or swerve around them hitting the curb.

tbirdmarco

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cTEtIGy8b7g

tbirdmarco

 Unfortunately lots of knots out there nothing could be done about that enjoyed reading everything above throughout the day today everyone by what you like that’s why there’s so many choices out there I’ve said before 

tbirdmarco

 See how much it cost to fix your dishwasher since it’s eight years old if it’s cheaper to buy a new one then fix go that route if she were to fix all that route you have to see 

tbirdmarco

 I know that was pretty funny driver 100 ha ha damn voice dictation 

explorerx4

@tbirdmarco,
I'm waiting for you translator to come out with Drivel 100

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

NOTE: DISREGARD unless you want to give your philosophical advice, which would be interesting. I think it drained overnight...so when I pressed START for 10 seconds the ACTIVE light went off, and I was able to put it into WASH CYCLE I THINK....testing it out now.

OK....a dishwasher question, need an opinion.
Bosch dishwasher is 8 years old. I think it is broken, the lights are stuck on ACTIVE and HALF WASH. Tried holding all the buttons etc to try and RESET.....it is frozen.
Is it better to call a repairman....is it a case of putting in a new part or panel.
OR
Is it better to bite the bullet, and go out and buy a new one?

I checked and they can last as short as 7 years and as long as 15, with the average being 9 or 10 years.
My thinking is a repair will cost $200 or $300 by the time the guy comes here and figures it out, then something else will break in 2 or 3 years, and I will have to buy another one anyway. It is a gamble either way.

Any thoughts?

I think any mechanical device will disappoint you sooner or later.

Last Thursday my van got stuck in limp mode. Next day it shifted hard until it warmed up. Quart of fluid fixed it...for now.

Sunday, power steering on wife's car went out. As my son was driving me home from dropping it off he tells me his AC isn't working.

Arrrrrrrrrggggggggggg! :@

imidazol97

driver100 said:

If I chose a car only because I wanted a reliable car, I would buy a Camry or Corolla, they always come first on JD Powers surveys.

The surveys are like the awards shows. The data is manipulated and less than totally valid.

I was laughing last week because a mediocre radio mechanic was answering questions and telling a caller that the toyota he had wasn't really realiable enough, good enough, to go to 100,000 mi on the original coolant. It did some kind of damage in the cooling system. He recommended instead changing the coolant at 70K 80K.

Then he later pointed out a problem with instrument panel knobs on a toyota that failed and became wobbly--as a known problem. He talked about a caller who had disassembled the parts and modified or repaired the knob problem in place. Otherwise, most folks had to pay to replace the entire switch portion.

Then the same guy is telliing how unfailingly reliable the toyotas are in his recommendation of vehicles to look at. And he advertises for the toyota store from whom he buys his own toyotas. Hmmmm, unbiased much? LOL

Instead I view this as fan clubs misleading others by minimizing in their own minds any problems they have with their favored cars as minor or not typical. Last I saw, the local toyota store enlarged their service department by several bays, advertising such as a plus. I want the car that doesn't need a dealer with repair space... LOL

Now that many cars are built of parts from the same suppliers here in the US, there's not much difference in the vehicles. There are differences in the dealerships and their interaction with customers.

I suggest the MB stores locally cost a neighbor hundreds of dollars trying to repair his E500. Then he took it to a store near Graphicguy, where they charged 2400$. Then he took it back after talking to the owner/manager who gave thema loaner C300 for several days. Still not repaired and would run down batteries. I told him one evening 1 of his taillights was on when I went to Kroger and was still on when I came home.

A local repairman at a MB store later asked him if he'd seen strange behaviors with different lights. Because I'd told him about the 1 taillight on, the guy said it was a problem with certain modules. Finally repaired.

I can't imagine having that much trouble with repair for my Chevy.

stickguy

speaking of tires, and my "crusade" against the proliferation of super skinny sidewalls. Just read the latest C&D, and the had a long term test of a Jag XE. with optional 20" summer tires, which they alternated with the standard 19" all seasons and winters mounted on them too.

in the test (16 months, 40,000 miles) they had to replace a total of 10 tires (not worn out, but damaged) and at least 3 bent wheels that had to get repaired. Crazy. They seemed to never make it more than 2-3 months on the 20s before losing another tire.

being in Michigan of course did not help. Maybe in Socal or Arizona you can get away with them. But in parts of the country that have winter, and normally crappy roads that never get repaired, mo sidewall is mo betta!

fintail

If your friend still has the car, tell him to find an indy shop. Newest E500 is 12+ years old now, and it is silly taking cars that old to the dealer. Also not from the zenith of MB quality.

imidazol97 said:

I suggest the MB stores locally cost a neighbor hundreds of dollars trying to repair his E500. Then he took it to a store near Graphicguy, where they charged 2400$. Then he took it back after talking to the owner/manager who gave thema loaner C300 for several days. Still not repaired and would run down batteries. I told him one evening 1 of his taillights was on when I went to Kroger and was still on when I came home.

A local repairman at a MB store later asked him if he'd seen strange behaviors with different lights. Because I'd told him about the 1 taillight on, the guy said it was a problem with certain modules. Finally repaired.

I can't imagine having that much trouble with repair for my Chevy.

driver100

cdnpinhead said:

Well, the drama teacher's government isn't going to give up much information very quickly if it doesn't fit the template. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out. In any event, it's a tragedy -- all we're dealing with here is motive and how to prevent such things in the future.

Hey, not just a drama teacher...also skateboard instructor and bouncer. He has never had a real job, except for as prime minister. He will give a speech about how we have to help these people.....find out why they are so angry.

sb55

@driver100
you are in Florida for 1/2 of the year. Your appliances should last double due to lack of use. 
Maybe try to repair?

driver100

explorerx4 said:

@tbirdmarco,
I'm waiting for you translator to come out with Drivel 100

lol

How about exploderx4!

ab348

driver100 said:

cdnpinhead said:

Well, the drama teacher's government isn't going to give up much information very quickly if it doesn't fit the template. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out. In any event, it's a tragedy -- all we're dealing with here is motive and how to prevent such things in the future.

Hey, not just a drama teacher...also skateboard instructor and bouncer. He has never had a real job, except for as prime minister. He will give a speech about how we have to help these people.....find out why they are so angry.

He and his wife were visiting us locally over the weekend for the annual convention of the Liberal party which was in town with about 2000 true believers. I am amazed at the unfailingly positive media coverage he always seems to get and this was no exception this time, except for one snide comment I saw that there were 8 identical black Suburbans with their engines idling outside the restaurant where he and Sophie had dinner one night. Such an environmentalist.

qbrozen

Speaking of toyotas and poor service, a friend was over yesterday and is telling me the woes of his LS460L. Brake warning light came on earlier in the week and he took it in for service. $650 later, he has new front brakes. As they are driving it later that day, they notice a vibration at certain speeds along with a rattling noise over bumps. Shop decided one of the rotors must be defective so they repeated the brake job. Vibration stops but rattle persists. 

He asked me to go for a ride to get my opinion. After hearing it a couple of times, and having him insist all was OK up till the brake service, I figure maybe the dust shield is loose. Nope, that's fine. So I started checking other things. The tie rod ends and the swaybar endlinks are beyond bad. I mean, the endlinks I could move with one finger. The tie rod ends I could twist fairly easy by hand, and they made a "clink" noise each time. 

I explained it isn't the shop's fault they are bad because it has nothing to do with the brakes; HOWEVER, I would have serious reservations about using a shop who had the car in the air, wheels off, and brakes apart, yet failed to notice obvious suspension and steering components in such a poor state. 

Mr_Shiftright

I never fail to remind people that Governor Jerry Brown drove a Dodge Dart. Now that's humble!

If you want to meet the Master of Positive Spin, you simply cannot top Elon Musk. This guy is the Mr. Teflon of the automotive world.

In response to some negative press about Tesla production lag and workplace problems, he has announced that he's "sleeping at the factory".

I had to laugh. It reminds me of the mythology you read about dictators: "Our Leader works so hard--why, you can see the lights on in his office, very late at night".

driver100

sb55 said:

@driver100
you are in Florida for 1/2 of the year. Your appliances should last double due to lack of use. 
Maybe try to repair?

Yes, we did discuss that. In some ways, I think it is harder on some appliances, like dishwashers, when they aren't used for longer periods of time. But, technically, you are correct, our 8 year old dishwasher is really the equivalent of about 4 or 5 years old.

It is working fine now after resting overnight....I think, my wife stopped it before the cycle finished, and it got frozen in wash cycle. I think it didn't reset because it still knew there was water in it. Overnight, the water ran out, so it was ready to be reset.....that is my theory.

driver100

ab348 said:

driver100 said:

cdnpinhead said:

Well, the drama teacher's government isn't going to give up much information very quickly if it doesn't fit the template. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out. In any event, it's a tragedy -- all we're dealing with here is motive and how to prevent such things in the future.

Hey, not just a drama teacher...also skateboard instructor and bouncer. He has never had a real job, except for as prime minister. He will give a speech about how we have to help these people.....find out why they are so angry.

He and his wife were visiting us locally over the weekend for the annual convention of the Liberal party which was in town with about 2000 true believers. I am amazed at the unfailingly positive media coverage he always seems to get and this was no exception this time, except for one snide comment I saw that there were 8 identical black Suburbans with their engines idling outside the restaurant where he and Sophie had dinner one night. Such an environmentalist.

Media has to be positive, he gives the media $billions....newspapers get subsidized, CBC, and many other media outlets. They don't want to criticize big daddy.

Now he is in a bind....the great environmentalist has to decide whether to fight to give the go ahead to approve the oil pipeline that cuts through B.C. and help the economy, or keep all his promises to the environmentalists, this should be fun to watch.

Mr_Shiftright

Didn't someone once say that politics is like making sausage---don't ask what's in it.

abacomike

Just got off the phone with my brother.  He is adding another vehicle to his garage - I knew he couldn’t be happy with just one car in there!  He is getting a 2018 Mercedes GLC 2x4 with the 4cyl turbo.  $55,000 MSRP and he is paying $47,000 + tax, title and dealer fees.  It’s gray like his Mercedes S Coupe but has MB TEX seats - he feels they are more durable than leather - but has just about every option.

I shared with him my opinion - “YOU ARE CRAZY!”  I bet him the GLC is history in less than 6 months.  He got his SO a GLC last month and I think he got the new car buying urge from that experience.

He said to me “...it’s only money!”  Oh well.

BTW - since my S450 is a 36 month lease, I extended the Mbrace services for 2 years at $350. That’s the Onstar version at MB.

ab348

After a long winter and a cold, miserable first month of Spring, the last couple of days were nice enough to let me wake the Cutlass up from its hibernation. I had the battery tender on it all winter and it had plenty of juice today when I reconnected the battery. I pumped the accelerator twice to set the choke, cranked it for a few seconds with the intent of just getting some oil to circulate, and boom! It started right up. Fastest I can remember it doing that. All seems the same as it was last fall. Great old car.

fordfool

andres3 said:

I'm not so happy with products made in Canada right now; look at this junky Michelin made there

A can of Slime Tire Sealant and some compressed air and you are on your way…good as new. Or perhaps a can of Flex-Seel (as seen on TV, $12.99 at a store near you!

tbirdmarco

I know explore that would be funny when it does we shall see but enjoy your day

driver100

abacomike said:

Just got off the phone with my brother.  He is adding another vehicle to his garage - I knew he couldn’t be happy with just one car in there!  He is getting a 2018 Mercedes GLC 2x4 with the 4cyl turbo.  $55,000 MSRP and he is paying $47,000 + tax, title and dealer fees.  It’s gray like his Mercedes S Coupe but has MB TEX seats - he feels they are more durable than leather - but has just about every option.

I shared with him my opinion - “YOU ARE CRAZY!”  I bet him the GLC is history in less than 6 months.  

I am getting more used to that chunky look of the GLC....I still think it would look better with larger windows. My tennis club is a public court, so inexpensive, and not too many fancy cars. But some days a group of retired guys play...they were doctors and lawyers in their working day, and of the 25 cars in the lot, 3 of them were new GLC's. I was thinking....maybe they are trying to unload them. I kind of get the idea of it being like an SUV, but more of a car feel to it....guess it has lots of space and a hatchback....so is practical. Personally, I like the look of a C300 car much more.

ab348

It strikes me as a jacked-up car more than a SUV. Easier for the oldsters with arthritis and mobility issues to get in and out of as compared to that low-slung beast of yours.

abacomike

driver100 said:

Just got off the phone with my brother.  He is adding another vehicle to his garage - I knew he couldn’t be happy with just one car in there!  He is getting a 2018 Mercedes GLC 2x4 with the 4cyl turbo.  $55,000 MSRP and he is paying $47,000 + tax, title and dealer fees.  It’s gray like his Mercedes S Coupe but has MB TEX seats - he feels they are more durable than leather - but has just about every option.

I shared with him my opinion - “YOU ARE CRAZY!”  I bet him the GLC is history in less than 6 months.  

I am getting more used to that chunky look of the GLC....I still think it would look better with larger windows. My tennis club is a public court, so inexpensive, and not too many fancy cars. But some days a group of retired guys play...they were doctors and lawyers in their working day, and of the 25 cars in the lot, 3 of them were new GLC's. I was thinking....maybe they are trying to unload them. I kind of get the idea of it being like an SUV, but more of a car feel to it....guess it has lots of space and a hatchback....so is practical. Personally, I like the look of a C300 car much more.

Driver, you posted a GLC Coupe, not a GLC 300.  The GLC 300 has much larger windows and is higher off the ground.  Check it out! 

abacomike

abacomike

The photo above is a GLC 300 which is what he bought.

abacomike

ab348 said:

It strikes me as a jacked-up car more than a SUV. Easier for the oldsters with arthritis and mobility issues to get in and out of as compared to that low-slung beast of yours.

What driver posted is more of a car - GLC Coupe is it’s name.  Driver posted the wrong vehicle - GLC 300 is what my brother bought.

fintail

A non-4Matic GLC? I've never seen one in person, must be a FL special or something. I hope he sells it locally, as lacking AWD will destroy resale north of maybe Macon GA or so.

And yeah, MB and BMW are aiming for a coupe variant of most CUVs/SUVs now.

abacomike said:

Just got off the phone with my brother.  He is adding another vehicle to his garage - I knew he couldn’t be happy with just one car in there!  He is getting a 2018 Mercedes GLC 2x4 with the 4cyl turbo.  $55,000 MSRP and he is paying $47,000 + tax, title and dealer fees.  It’s gray like his Mercedes S Coupe but has MB TEX seats - he feels they are more durable than leather - but has just about every option.

I shared with him my opinion - “YOU ARE CRAZY!”  I bet him the GLC is history in less than 6 months.  He got his SO a GLC last month and I think he got the new car buying urge from that experience.

He said to me “...it’s only money!”  Oh well.

BTW - since my S450 is a 36 month lease, I extended the Mbrace services for 2 years at $350. That’s the Onstar version at MB.

imidazol97

abacomike said:

ab348 said:

It strikes me as a jacked-up car more than a SUV. Easier for the oldsters with arthritis and mobility issues to get in and out of as compared to that low-slung beast of yours.

What driver posted is more of a car - GLC Coupe is it’s name.  Driver posted the wrong vehicle - GLC 300 is what my brother bought.

And I thought the numerical system that some MB fans use was complicated...

It might be easier to refer to them as C253 and C292?

bwia

Mr_Shiftright said:

I never fail to remind people that Governor Jerry Brown drove a Dodge Dart. Now that's humble!

If you want to meet the Master of Positive Spin, you simply cannot top Elon Musk. This guy is the Mr. Teflon of the automotive world.

In response to some negative press about Tesla production lag and workplace problems, he has announced that he's "sleeping at the factory".

I had to laugh. It reminds me of the mythology you read about dictators: "Our Leader works so hard--why, you can see the lights on in his office, very late at night".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOz7cPJQd8E
In this CBS video (3 minutes in) he shows where he sleeps at the factory.

oldfarmer50

File this under "whodathunkit".

Power steering abruptly failed on wife's PT Cruiser. Went into the shop with the expectation of expensive repairs.

Just got a call telling me that a suicide Chipmonk had gotten into the engine compartment and his dying act was to knock the belt off the PS unit.

That's the second lucky cheap fix this week.

Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket.

abacomike

imidazol97 said:

ab348 said:

It strikes me as a jacked-up car more than a SUV. Easier for the oldsters with arthritis and mobility issues to get in and out of as compared to that low-slung beast of yours.

What driver posted is more of a car - GLC Coupe is it’s name.  Driver posted the wrong vehicle - GLC 300 is what my brother bought.

And I thought the numerical system that some MB fans use was complicated... It might be easier to refer to them as C253 and C292?

I was amazed to learn that the GLC 300 SUV is being manufactured in Germany.  I would have thought they would build it here in the US.  Many of their less expensive models are built in the US.

As far as redesignating the model descriptors, I would have more difficulty identifying them.  BMW and Daimler-Benz have added so many new models to their lines, I can’t keep up with them.  The local MB dealership has one of each model on display in their two adjacent showrooms.  But just models - not engines and models.

I am sure they have expanded their lines in order to attract buyers at most income levels.  Audi has quite a few models, but nowhere near MB and BMW.

abacomike

fintail said:

A non-4Matic GLC? I've never seen one in person, must be a FL special or something. I hope he sells it locally, as lacking AWD will destroy resale north of maybe Macon GA or so. And yeah, MB and BMW are aiming for a coupe variant of most CUVs/SUVs now.

Just got off the phone with my brother.  He is adding another vehicle to his garage - I knew he couldn’t be happy with just one car in there!  He is getting a 2018 Mercedes GLC 2x4 with the 4cyl turbo.  $55,000 MSRP and he is paying $47,000 + tax, title and dealer fees.  It’s gray like his Mercedes S Coupe but has MB TEX seats - he feels they are more durable than leather - but has just about every option.

I shared with him my opinion - “YOU ARE CRAZY!”  I bet him the GLC is history in less than 6 months.  He got his SO a GLC last month and I think he got the new car buying urge from that experience.

He said to me “...it’s only money!”  Oh well.

BTW - since my S450 is a 36 month lease, I extended the Mbrace services for 2 years at $350. That’s the Onstar version at MB.

You have to really understand my brother’s motivations when it comes to car buying.  I would not buy an SUV - no need for one - but if I did, it would be AWD.  My brother, on the other hand, has no need for an SUV, but he’s buying one because he wants to - a 2-1/2 car garage with only one car in it?  It must have been that motivation or the fact that he’s a total car nut.  You have to remember - we are identical twins, after all! 

bwia

Condolences to those unfortunate and innocent Canadians who lost their lives in yesterday's rampage in Toronto. May they RIP.

abacomike

bwia said:

Condolences to those unfortunate and innocent Canadians who lost their lives in yesterday's rampage in Toronto. May they RIP.

Ditto!  Did they find out if this guy is a terrorist yet? Or is he plagued with emotional issues?

fintail

Has he considered a cool vintage car? Might be cheaper in the long run, and more fun. I don't get the idea of a 2WD SUV either, but maybe if I lived in FL weather. If I wanted a real SUV, I'd go all in and seek a G-Wagen, sadly, they tend to be either really old or representative of tacky or dirty new money.

abacomike said:

You have to really understand my brother’s motivations when it comes to car buying.  I would not buy an SUV - no need for one - but if I did, it would be AWD.  My brother, on the other hand, has no need for an SUV, but he’s buying one because he wants to - a 2-1/2 car garage with only one car in it?  It must have been that motivation or the fact that he’s a total car nut.  You have to remember - we are identical twins, after all! 

andres3

imidazol97 said:

driver100 said:

If I chose a car only because I wanted a reliable car, I would buy a Camry or Corolla, they always come first on JD Powers surveys.

The surveys are like the awards shows. The data is manipulated and less than totally valid.

I was laughing last week because a mediocre radio mechanic was answering questions and telling a caller that the toyota he had wasn't really realiable enough, good enough, to go to 100,000 mi on the original coolant. It did some kind of damage in the cooling system. He recommended instead changing the coolant at 70K 80K.

Then he later pointed out a problem with instrument panel knobs on a toyota that failed and became wobbly--as a known problem. He talked about a caller who had disassembled the parts and modified or repaired the knob problem in place. Otherwise, most folks had to pay to replace the entire switch portion.

Then the same guy is telliing how unfailingly reliable the toyotas are in his recommendation of vehicles to look at. And he advertises for the toyota store from whom he buys his own toyotas. Hmmmm, unbiased much? LOL

Instead I view this as fan clubs misleading others by minimizing in their own minds any problems they have with their favored cars as minor or not typical. Last I saw, the local toyota store enlarged their service department by several bays, advertising such as a plus. I want the car that doesn't need a dealer with repair space... LOL

Now that many cars are built of parts from the same suppliers here in the US, there's not much difference in the vehicles. There are differences in the dealerships and their interaction with customers.

I suggest the MB stores locally cost a neighbor hundreds of dollars trying to repair his E500. Then he took it to a store near Graphicguy, where they charged 2400$. Then he took it back after talking to the owner/manager who gave thema loaner C300 for several days. Still not repaired and would run down batteries. I told him one evening 1 of his taillights was on when I went to Kroger and was still on when I came home.

A local repairman at a MB store later asked him if he'd seen strange behaviors with different lights. Because I'd told him about the 1 taillight on, the guy said it was a problem with certain modules. Finally repaired.

I can't imagine having that much trouble with repair for my Chevy.

The same manufacturer and parts maker can make wildly different quality parts that serve the same purpose. Specifications and tolerances matter. The companies known for better reliability do so in large part to specifying quality parts, rejecting parts that don't meet those standards, and of course, the cheaper companies just don't reject anything.

dino001

andres3 said:

The same manufacturer and parts maker can make wildly different quality parts that serve the same purpose. Specifications and tolerances matter. The companies known for better reliability do so in large part to specifying quality parts, rejecting parts that don't meet those standards, and of course, the cheaper companies just don't reject anything.

Sadly I think that's exactly, when MB (and other Germans) went down in '90s and '00s. The biggest gremlins in MB cars were in electrical systems and you can see the scheme very clearly. Say, there is a relay, it's supposed to work 100,000 hours, or whatever for say $30/piece it's needed for it to last a proverbial lifetime. In 60s, 70s, "lifetime" for MB was 20 years, or 500K miles (or something like that, I don't know for sure). Then the accountants come in and say, let's shorten it to 10 years, nobody is expecting 10 year old car to work as new. This means the relay can be rated for half that time, i.e. it's the same relay, but it needs less testing and QC procedures, i.e. it can cost $20/piece now. Then they come and say let's shorten it to 6 years, by then all loans are paid off. Then they come and say, let's make it last until the average first owner trades it back. Now, granted, average owner would keep his car a bit longer than Mike (), but typical is a 3-year lease. It is just irresistible for them to get a relay rated for say 20,000 hours rather than original 100,000. It's not like gaps in the body panels, something you can see. It works, when you press the button on the first day, or second. Just one day it stops - then you pay $150 for the part (it costs them $15 by now, but don't you forget, it's a Mercedes, there are no cheap parts) and $500 bucks for the labor, but you can have the espresso in the lounge and even use the loaner. BTW, similar things were happening in all manufacturers, not just German of course, but I think it was most visible for Germans, because the final decline of expected durability between 70s and now is the biggest.

Then another trend set out. Cars got a lot of new features, many keep coming. Electric this, power that, computer controls everywhere, all run by software. Short introduction cycles mean not a lot of time for vetting problems. Here is a solution - we sell a beta version for a full price and then "work it out" through reflashes at dealerships. You give a customer a loaner so he shuts up about the inconvenience and we all move on. The lease is over and the next owner better gets a certified version, or he/she pays thousands.

qbrozen

I'm not arguing any of the above points, but will point out that part of the problem, IMHO, is that, in the quest to make things smaller and lighter, we've made them more fragile. Old big radios with wires and tubes are still working long after a portable radio with a circuit board.

dino001

qbrozen said:

I'm not arguing any of the above points, but will point out that part of the problem, IMHO, is that, in the quest to make things smaller and lighter, we've made them more fragile. Old big radios with wires and tubes are still working long after a portable radio with a circuit board.

Indeed. I think the trade between longevity and other things (weight, size, convenience, features, etc.) is valid. The only real question is how far is too far.

fintail

You're exactly right on that. Many cars are built to behave best just for the term of a lease, or at most, a standard loan.

MB also did this in the name of environmental/biodegradable prattle, but I suspect costs were involved and man, did it backfire.

The early 00s were also a time for "beta testing" bleeding edge MB tech, and I don't think BMW or Audi were any better.

And to show off. cars of this era would last as long as you reasonably maintained them and kept them away from rust (this is an unrestored car):

dino001 said:

Sadly I think that's exactly, when MB (and other Germans) went down in '90s and '00s. The biggest gremlins in MB cars were in electrical systems and you can see the scheme very clearly. Say, there is a relay, it's supposed to work 100,000 hours, or whatever for say $30/piece it's needed for it to last a proverbial lifetime. In 60s, 70s, "lifetime" for MB was 20 years, or 500K miles (or something like that, I don't know for sure). Then the accountants come in and say, let's shorten it to 10 years, nobody is expecting 10 year old car to work as new.
Then another trend set out. Cars got a lot of new features, many keep coming. Electric this, power that, computer controls everywhere, all run by software. Short introduction cycles mean not a lot of time for vetting problems. Here is a solution - we sell a beta version for a full price and then "work it out" through reflashes at dealerships. You give a customer a loaner so he shuts up about the inconvenience and we all move on. The lease is over and the next owner better gets a certified version, or he/she pays thousands.

dino001

That's why I did generalize my point to all cars. However, in Consumer Reports, MB's S-class, M-Class and Audi's A4 and A6 built it 2000s were consistently occupying bottom regions of the ranks (regardless of executive's swearing that next year will be better), whereas BMW's cars were usually marked as "average" or "average-minus". IIRC there were years, when M-Class was named as having worst reliability of the entire market, which was a real feat when the competition from Cavalier, Neon and couple of others was really stiff at that time.

thebean

Just my luck that when I saved enough money to buy MB's (mid-late 90's), the quality went down the tubes.

driver100

abacomike said:

The photo above is a GLC 300 which is what he bought.

Thanks for clarification.....it is getting harder to keep things straight, especially when you have similar names for 2 completely different vehicles.