Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

ab348

bwia said:

Value Proposition

Multi-brand automobile marketing is a tricky business. How do you differentiate one brand from another when the differences in size, quality and refinement are infinitesimal? For GM, the CTS, LaCrosse and Impala are basically the same animal with different stripes. Even the leather in the LaCrosse is more supple than the CTS. Go figure.

No, the XTS, Lacrosse and Impala are all built on the same FWD platform and are variations of the same design. The CTS is an entirely different car with its own RWD platform.

I see your point from a dollars and sense point of view. The Buicks offer more standard features at a lower price point than Cadillac. In the same way Hyundai and Kia offer more geegaws than Honda. If that is how you judge value then they are a better buy. There are other factors that equation ignores. I can tell you that I had the choice of a new ATS or a new Regal this time around, and I do not regret my choice one iota.

abacomike

Remember, bwia, Cadillac is still their luxury vehicle line, with Buick considered their upscale line and Chevy considered their economy line.  So they have to differentiate between the 3 lines by pricing them differentially.  

Then one must assess and evaluate the resale values of each line after, say, 3 years with 36,000 miles on each in "clean" condition.  In other words, which of their lines holds more value at trade-in time.  The assumption would be that the Cadillac holds more value followed by the Buick.  Remember, that is just an assumption.

The real test is in the way these cars handle and perform.

murphydog

abacomike said:

Just got back from taking our morning constitutional (walk) at Boca Town Center. On the way back, we stopped at Costco to get some cheese, bagels, eggs, etc., but the place was so jammed, I could not find a parking space. So I went over to the gas pumps and after a 5 minute wait, I filled the car up with Premium Unleaded Gasoline for $277.9 per gallon. All the competing gas stations in the area are selling premium for $302.9 - $329.9. I cannot remember the last time I paid so little for a gallon of premium unleaded gasoline. I sure hope this continues for awhile.

Mike - I was able to fill up for $2.67 at our local Costco in Seattle for premium, I think regular was around $2.45! It was nice to fill up for less than $40.

abacomike

murphydog said:

Just got back from taking our morning constitutional (walk) at Boca Town Center. On the way back, we stopped at Costco to get some cheese, bagels, eggs, etc., but the place was so jammed, I could not find a parking space. So I went over to the gas pumps and after a 5 minute wait, I filled the car up with Premium Unleaded Gasoline for $277.9 per gallon. All the competing gas stations in the area are selling premium for $302.9 - $329.9. I cannot remember the last time I paid so little for a gallon of premium unleaded gasoline. I sure hope this continues for awhile.

Mike - I was able to fill up for $2.67 at our local Costco in Seattle for premium, I think regular was around $2.45! It was nice to fill up for less than $40.

A true pleasure!  Next month, I get back 5% on my credit card for gas purchases.  At 5% cash back, I would be getting 13 cents back on every gallon.  If my Chevron station remains 34 cents a gallon higher than Costco, Costco remains the better price!  Unfortunately, American Express does not consider Costco as a gas station and that is the only credit card they accept except for Debit Cards.

Oil was at $54 a barrel this morning.  It's causing countries like Russia into terrible financial situations - isn't that payback for Ukraine?  Who said there is no God?  

Oil accounts for over 50% of the Russian economy's budget.  I hope this payback time lasts for a very, very long time.

Michaell

abacomike said:

murphydog said:

Just got back from taking our morning constitutional (walk) at Boca Town Center. On the way back, we stopped at Costco to get some cheese, bagels, eggs, etc., but the place was so jammed, I could not find a parking space. So I went over to the gas pumps and after a 5 minute wait, I filled the car up with Premium Unleaded Gasoline for $277.9 per gallon. All the competing gas stations in the area are selling premium for $302.9 - $329.9. I cannot remember the last time I paid so little for a gallon of premium unleaded gasoline. I sure hope this continues for awhile.

Mike - I was able to fill up for $2.67 at our local Costco in Seattle for premium, I think regular was around $2.45! It was nice to fill up for less than $40.

A true pleasure!  Next month, I get back 5% on my credit card for gas purchases.  At 5% cash back, I would be getting 13 cents back on every gallon.  If my Chevron station remains 34 cents a gallon higher than Costco, Costco remains the better price!  Unfortunately, American Express does not consider Costco as a gas station and that is the only credit card they accept except for Debit Cards.

Oil was at $54 a barrel this morning.  It's causing countries like Russia into terrible financial situations - isn't that payback for Ukraine?  Who said there is no God?  

Oil accounts for over 50% of the Russian economy's budget.  I hope this payback time lasts for a very, very long time.

Not to devolve this into a political debate, but be careful what you wish for. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Back Putin into a corner and you don't know how he'll respond.

Russian national back raised their base rate from 10% to 17.5% this morning to prop up the ruble. Not working. Russia is teetering on the brink of a full blown financial crisis - similar to 1998, when LTCM defaulted.

jayrider

bwia said:

Value Proposition

Yesterday, I dropped by a Cadillac dealership to look at the CTS and other Cadillac offerings. Although the CTS is a nice looking sedan it is much too expensive for its pretensions. The value proposition is with the Buick LaCrosse which is $25,000 less for a comparably equipped vehicle.

A nicely equipped V-6, 304 hp LaCrosse Premium II with navigation and all the desirable options stickers for about $40,895. A comparably equipped CTS is $65,765. Yes, I know the CTS is rear-wheel drive and has real wood instead of simulated wood for the Buick but I can't see how Cadillac can justify that price premium. Oops, I forgot maybe it is probably for the knee airbags and magnetic ride control.

By the way, the dealership lot was loaded with Escalades, SRX and ATS but few CTS and XTS. Obviously, the smart money is on the SUVs with the CTS being the halo car.

Multi-brand automobile marketing is a tricky business. How do you differentiate one brand from another when the differences in size, quality and refinement are infinitesimal? For GM, the CTS, LaCrosse and Impala are basically the same animal with different stripes. Even the leather in the LaCrosse is more supple than the CTS. Go figure.

When I had my oil changed on my LaCrosse this week at the Cadillac dealer, I checked oun a CTS in the showroom. I really like everything except the price and the seats. The seats were too firm with a rather high bolster on the seat bottom which I did not like sliding over. That's a big deal breaker. Someday I'll have to take a test drive in a E Class because I can't imagine a better ride than my Buick [for my driving style]. Smooth, quiet, with decent handling --- what more do I need ? Plus, the local dealer is discounting $9300 off msrp on Premium models. But I'm still happy with mine so no shopping yet.

abacomike

jayrider said:

Value Proposition

Yesterday, I dropped by a Cadillac dealership to look at the CTS and other Cadillac offerings. Although the CTS is a nice looking sedan it is much too expensive for its pretensions. The value proposition is with the Buick LaCrosse which is $25,000 less for a comparably equipped vehicle. A nicely equipped V-6, 304 hp LaCrosse Premium II with navigation and all the desirable options stickers for about $40,895. A comparably equipped CTS is $65,765. Yes, I know the CTS is rear-wheel drive and has real wood instead of simulated wood for the Buick but I can't see how Cadillac can justify that price premium. Oops, I forgot maybe it is probably for the knee airbags and magnetic ride control. By the way, the dealership lot was loaded with Escalades, SRX and ATS but few CTS and XTS. Obviously, the smart money is on the SUVs with the CTS being the halo car. Multi-brand automobile marketing is a tricky business. How do you differentiate one brand from another when the differences in size, quality and refinement are infinitesimal? For GM, the CTS, LaCrosse and Impala are basically the same animal with different stripes. Even the leather in the LaCrosse is more supple than the CTS. Go figure.

When I had my oil changed on my LaCrosse this week at the Cadillac dealer, I checked oun a CTS in the showroom. I really like everything except the price and the seats. The seats were too firm with a rather high bolster on the seat bottom which I did not like sliding over. That's a big deal breaker. Someday I'll have to take a test drive in a E Class because I can't imagine a better ride than my Buick [for my driving style]. Smooth, quiet, with decent handling --- what more do I need ? Plus, the local dealer is discounting $9300 off msrp on Premium models. But I'm still happy with mine so no shopping yet.

Jay, whatever you are most satisfied with is what you should go with - but it would seem you already know that.!!!

abacomike

@Michaell‌

I am not the least interested in starting a political debate, to be sure!  I just found it interesting that, "...what goes around, comes around..." as Justin Timberlake would say (or sing)!  No, I don't want to back anyone into a corner, especially an egomaniac like Putin.  But plummeting oil prices might solve more than one problem in the world.  What about Iran?  Venezuela?  Just to mention a few other problems.

driver100

jayrider said:

bwia said:

Value Proposition

Yesterday, I dropped by a Cadillac dealership to look at the CTS and other Cadillac offerings. Although the CTS is a nice looking sedan it is much too expensive for its pretensions. The value proposition is with the Buick LaCrosse which is $25,000 less for a comparably equipped vehicle.

A nicely equipped V-6, 304 hp LaCrosse Premium II with navigation and all the desirable options stickers for about $40,895. A comparably equipped CTS is $65,765. Yes, I know the CTS is rear-wheel drive and has real wood instead of simulated wood for the Buick but I can't see how Cadillac can justify that price premium. Oops, I forgot maybe it is probably for the knee airbags and magnetic ride control.

By the way, the dealership lot was loaded with Escalades, SRX and ATS but few CTS and XTS. Obviously, the smart money is on the SUVs with the CTS being the halo car.

Multi-brand automobile marketing is a tricky business. How do you differentiate one brand from another when the differences in size, quality and refinement are infinitesimal? For GM, the CTS, LaCrosse and Impala are basically the same animal with different stripes. Even the leather in the LaCrosse is more supple than the CTS. Go figure.

Someday I'll have to take a test drive in a E Class because I can't imagine a better ride than my Buick [for my driving style].

Be happy with what you got....but, if you do get a chance to try an E I'd be interested in hearing your impressions.

graphicguy

When you get into the range of the CTS, E Class, 5 Series, GS, A6, things change a bit. All of them will ride well. All of them will handle well. All of them offer a range of options that are a step above the next wrung down.

Materials are better. I noticed the paint job on my CTS is probably the best I've seen on any car. What do they do differently? Not sure. It's black. And, it has no orange peal that I can detect. It's even, rich and deep.

As good as my wife's Honda is built (and my previous TL for that matter), the CTS is more solid. LIttle things like feeling the seams on the door jams on the TL or Accord just don't exist with the CTS. Slam the doors....CTS...bank vault solid. TL (which was pretty darned solid in its own right) or my previous Audi felt tinny by comparison.

With either the ATS or the CTS, I couldn't upset the suspension, regardless of how hard I tried and regardless of the road's conditions or lack of repair.

I'm constantly amazed at how easy the car is to drive really fast. Cut and thrust, in a car like this isn't something you'd expect. But, it does it well.

Real aluminum, leather, wood, suede, chrome, mood lighting etc are all part of the package, too.

Voice recognition is spot on, too. While still deciding how much I like (or dislike) things like collision mitigation, I am getting used to the seats that vibrate when you cross a lane without a turn signal going. I'm liking the parking sensors.

The turbo motor pulls very impressively, while returning excellent MPG.

I know we all gush when our cars are new. So, it depends on what we think after the miles pile up.

There was a comparison written by C&D on the current models referenced here. And, different people will have different priorities, so choices will be different. But, here's how they viewed them.....

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2014-cadillac-cts-36-vs-audi-a6-bmw-535i-mercedes-e350-comparison-test-review

graphicguy

Oil prices....it never ceases to amaze me how the oil business always seems surprised with downturns. I'm not even an expert and saw this coming.

U.S. has been oil independent for a few years. Matter of fact, we're exporting oil, now. As such, other countries' demands should not affect us.
Every year, more and more electrics and hybrids are sold in this country. MPG has been on the rise for a good long while, and recently has seen even larger gains. Larger gains still are just ahead.

Even my car shuts the grill louvers when engine cooing is not needed to reduce drag. Those sorts of technological advances make very fuel efficient cars.

We've all heard the excuses of why oil companies were propping up those ridiculous markups. They must have run out of them. They're still making good money even where gas prices are now.

As far as Russia, UAE, OPEC, etc are concerned? They, in part and parcel with the likes of Shell, Chevron, BP etc were the ones who crafted this "oil" business as we know it. Anyone who tries to artificially prop up prices, with all the falling demand, should be treated like ENRON.

imidazol97

graphicguy said:

Materials are better. I noticed the paint job on my CTS is probably the best I've seen on any car. What do they do differently? Not sure. It's black. And, it has no orange peel that I can detect. It's even, rich and deep.

A lot of things are done with higher technology involved, both to improve quality over the normal vehicles and to save weight/to improve strength.

Mr_Shiftright

Not sure I'd want to be crowned as The Great Compromise but hey, Audi wins.

graphicguy

Mr_Shiftright said:

Not sure I'd want to be crowned as The Great Compromise but hey, Audi wins.

Yeah....sort of damning with faint praise.

I actually think the A6 is a really good car. Not very tossable, but a solid handler. Not the best ride of the bunch, but a solid ride. Not the most forward thinking on the inside, but quite nice nevertheless.

I would be more than happy to drive one (if Audi ever gets their act together, particularly their lack of customer service).

They're all built well. They all offer the luxury that the price point demands. They all offer pretty advanced technology.

All-in-all, depends on what you want. The CTS (and moreso, the ATS) are so much fun to drive, that quality more or less overtakes the rest of what the car offers.

imid...tney're building them better, that's for sure. Technology certainly plays a part, whether it be on the design and engineering level, the manufacturing level, or the inherent materials and build of the car.

Probably the biggest leap in quality in the decades I've been driving....and actually, relatively far removed from just 5 years ago.

driver100

Mr_Shiftright said:

Not sure I'd want to be crowned as The Great Compromise but hey, Audi wins.

I think that article was pretty accurate from what I know, having a 2012 535, driving an A6, and owning an E400. I'll have to rely on their comments about the CTS, but they seem to ring true.

When we tested a 2008 A4 the salesman said Audi was a compromise between the luxury of Mercedes and the handling of a BMW. That can mean a good thing, if you mean it takes the best of those two cars and puts them into one package....and in my opinion, the A4 did that.

But, and this is just IMHO, the A6 was a compromise of the lesser parts of those two rivals. The interior though nice, is no where near the elegance and sophistication of the MB, and the driving and handling is not as good as in the BMW.

I thought the A6 was a compromise, but, it was a compromise in a wishy washy way. Just me, but I want to feel good....either give me luxury or great handling, not a bit of each. When i drove the A6 I wanted to like it, but it was, well, bland, and the color combinations were also pretty bland, especially the limited interior choices.

The Great Compromise just says "boring" to me. The CTS seems to have the excitement angle covered. MB has the luxury and ease of driving part covered. BMW still has a great engine and handling dynamics. Audi, well, a little bit of everything.

fezo

My brother (the twin of the Elmore Leonard fan) has an A6. He's disappointed with it. He then drove a lady friend's A4 and said that's what he was looking for in the A6. Live and learn.

Our local Costco regular is now going $2.37. Today, however, on my way up to New York I stopped at the Costco in the northern part of the county where I paid $2.16! I tried on the way back but it was so crowded and haphazard I gave it up, but that was nice.

Most of the folks that are getting hit hard with the oil prices are folks I'd just as soon get hit hard. The only folks I'd be concerned with are independent shale oil folks. If they're pretty leveraged the price at this point could put them out of business. Of course that's why you don't leverage so much. I thought we learned that in 07 and 08.

abacomike

@fezo‌

Remember that OPEC refused to cut production and, in fact the Saudi's are pumping all they can with one purpose in mind - make oil so cheap it will put the shale business in serious jeopardy.  After 6 months, with oil production dropping sharply in the US, watch OPEC cut production and force oil prices sky high.  This is a purposeful con job on the part of OPEC.

Can't anyone else see what's happening?

imidazol97

abacomike said:

@fezo‌

Remember that OPEC refused to cut production and, in fact the Saudi's are pumping all they can with one purpose in mind - make oil so cheap it will put the shale business in serious jeopardy.  After 6 months, with oil production dropping sharply in the US, watch OPEC cut production and force oil prices sky high.  This is a purposeful con job on the part of OPEC.

Can't anyone else see what's happening?

Agreed. But in the interim the value of the Russian and other currencies are going to take a hit as well. I do not understand what impact that may have.

fezo

Here's the trick though. Indeed the Saudis are trying to drive out shale oil. There is some yet unknown price that would shut down shale. However, if the Saudis then try to cut supply and raise prices those same shale operations will restart - even if it's under new management - and they are getting better and better at shale driving the break even price lower.

I remember when oil tanked in the 90s hearing a guy on tv who had oil wells that he'd turn on when the price was right and turn off when it wasn't.

The rules have changed considerably. It'll be a while before the bounce up.

abacomike

fezo said:

Here's the trick though. Indeed the Saudis are trying to drive out shale oil. There is some yet unknown price that would shut down shale. However, if the Saudis then try to cut supply and raise prices those same shale operations will restart - even if it's under new management - and they are getting better and better at shale driving the break even price lower. I remember when oil tanked in the 90s hearing a guy on tv who had oil wells that he'd turn on when the price was right and turn off when it wasn't. The rules have changed considerably. It'll be a while before the bounce up.

I sure hope you are right, fez.  These low gasoline prices is just what the U.S. Economy needed - a shot in the arm - whereby more money will be pumped into consumer goods and services by the U.S. Citizenry.  If we can sustain this for 6 months, we just might see an explosion in the job market.

explorerx4

@fezo, My first thought was this was an attempt to put the NA shale oil producers out of business, then buy them up on the cheap. I don't have any understanding of how that business really works. It could be something completely different, like putting pressure on Russia to chill out militarily.

ab348

Anyone see any effects after buying gas at Costco? When I had my Intrigue, the fuel sender went bad after about 5 years. I was a religious buyer of gas from a discount place like them (but not Costco) and the mechanic said the discount gas contributed to that failure because of the lack of additives or the use of lousy additives or some such thing.

abacomike

ab348 said:

Anyone see any effects after buying gas at Costco? When I had my Intrigue, the fuel sender went bad after about 5 years. I was a religious buyer of gas from a discount place like them (but not Costco) and the mechanic said the discount gas contributed to that failure because of the lack of additives or the use of lousy additives or some such thing.

About 6-8 months ago, Costco's gasoline became s top tier fuel.  That means it sells ultra high detergent fuels only.  Here, you can use "Gas Buddy" (app available for android and apple phones) which labels those gas stations and brands that are top tier only.

Until Costco acquired top tier rating, I did not use their gasoline.  Now, even in my new Mercedes twin turbo V6, I use it as I did in the CLS.  Their premium and regular fuels pass the muster for direct injection engines which fowl up quickly when using low detergent gasolines.

Mr_Shiftright

"Do not poke the bear, please" is what comes to my mind.

I think the US and OPEC are totally in cahoots on this one. Oil shale still has plenty of slack before it becomes unprofitable.


Agreed. But in the interim the value of the Russian and other currencies are going to take a hit as well. I do not understand what impact that may have.

laurasdada

My last fill up at Costco was $2.80 for PUG, Boston area. Since I started with Costco, I believe my mpg has actually lowered, but I'm sure that is more a result of gas switching to Winter formula.

abacomike

laurasdada said:

My last fill up at Costco was $2.80 for PUG, Boston area. Since I started with Costco, I believe my mpg has actually lowered, but I'm sure that is more a result of gas switching to Winter formula.

It's difficult to say, laurasdada.  Winter operating conditions reduce fuel economy due to fast idle times until engine operating temperatures are achieved.  The switchover to winter fuels is another.  Best way to tell if it's the kind/quality of fuel is to run 3 tanks and get an average mpg.  Then run 3 tanks of Shell, Mobil, Chevron, etc., and compare averages.  My guess is that the two figures will be almost identical, assuming temps and other weather conditions are equal.

fezo

I run only top tier and for quite some time now only Costco. That's because no gas other than no-name brands comes with 10 or 15 cents a gallon of them.

cdnpinhead

fezo said:

I remember when oil tanked in the 90s hearing a guy on tv who had oil wells that he'd turn on when the price was right and turn off when it wasn't.

This is, in fact, exactly how it works.

Given the past several years, during which the shale, fracking and oil sands people have had big margins to work with, all their processes have become more efficient. Let's hide and watch to see how the sand (let's just say people) handle it. The greenies, who push the Pious and other such things, are all a-twitter, clutching their pearls, mourning the decline in fuel prices.

This is getting good.

stickguy

and if Washington had any common sense and future vision, they would take advantage of the lower prices to bump up the gas tax to help replenish the highway trust fund.

mako1a

Gas Taxes by state
exxonmobilperspectives.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/API-US-Map.jpg

graphicguy

Why not let the low oil prices fuel another economic boom? Stay away from OPEC oil, and in turn maybe save some lives our military has to sacrifice to secure OPEC countries.

I view it as an opportunity to crush the decades long U.S. Engagement in an area of the world populated by people who don't like us.

We don't need their oil. Let's make certain Shell, Chevron, their supporters, etc doesn't drag us down that rabbit hole, again.

nyccarguy

Sales story in progress. My Dad is looking to get into a new 2015 Chevy Tahoe LT. He's currently driving a 2011 LTZ Tahoe that he bought new as a leftover at the end of February 2012 (0% financing for 72 months). His truck has 66K miles on it. GM is backing theses trucks with low money factors and decent residuals as of right now. He's currently got 39 months left on his financing contract & we were presented with a 39 month lease by the dealer. Leasing a 60K truck with 20K per year isn't exactly cheap, so there are quite a few moving parts to this deal:

We were quoted a strong selling price, base money factors, and up front mileage charges. The downside is that my Dad is about $5K underwater. So that translates into about $129 (plus interest) per month for the term of the lease.

I'm dealing with the GM of the dealership (who is the owner's son). I have a feeling he can go lower than the $930 per month (including tax). My Dad is currently paying $868 on his 0% for 72 month loan.

I'll keep you guys posted.

qbrozen

The LTZ is a higher trim level, right? So what about the 2015 appeals to him? Have they changed the truck much?

sb55

fezo said:

I run only top tier and for quite some time now only Costco. That's because no gas other than no-name brands comes with 10 or 15 cents a gallon of them.

Up here in Northern Vermont, we have 2 or 3 wholesalers. Even though our gas tax is on the low side, the wholesale "cartel" keeps the gas prices high in the Northern part of the State, so we pay about $.20 more than others in the State. Our one congressman says he wants to know why and will investigate, but nothing ever happens. Prices in Southern Vermont and even in NY (with higher gas taxes) are lower. Yesterday was gas sale day of $.05 off at the local Mobil station, and I paid $2.87 for RUG. Better, but not great.
As for COSTCO, we have one in the area and they want to put in pumps, but the local oil "cartel" keeps suing to stop it. It's been in the news again lately every time they do a story on our high prices.

robr2

abacomike said:

@Michaell‌

I am not the least interested in starting a political debate, to be sure!  I just found it interesting that, "...what goes around, comes around..." as Justin Timberlake would say (or sing)!  No, I don't want to back anyone into a corner, especially an egomaniac like Putin.  But plummeting oil prices might solve more than one problem in the world.  What about Iran?  Venezuela?  Just to mention a few other problems.

Well keep in mind that the #1 oil producer in the world could be affected. That country would be the United States. The issue is that we produce high cost oil and that the low prices affect those producers first. Some shale projects are already being throttled back or cancelled altogether because world oil prices have to be in the $80's to make shale profitable.

nyccarguy

qbrozen said:

The LTZ is a higher trim level, right? So what about the 2015 appeals to him? Have they changed the truck much?

The LTZ is the highest trim level. It is now simply too much money. Close to $70K sticker. The major thing it has that the LT doesn't is the Magnet Ride Control. While that's really cool, my Dad is happy with the way his truck drives with the standard suspension setup. The 2015 is a complete redesign with a much nicer interior than his 2011. It has a heated steering wheel which he really likes and the blind spot alerts that he had on his 2010 Tahoe, but are missing from his 2011. He is 68 and still works 6 days a week. Never takes time off (except when we close up for the last 2 weeks in July). He spends a lot of time in the car commuting and he expressed interest in wanting something in February/March when he's at the 3 year/70K mark.

Lease residuals seem decent now and are traditionally lower in Feb/March plus there is a loyalty incentive plus he's giving me employee pricing (which is lower than the supplier pricing). That plus his 2011 will be another "year older" in 2 weeks and he's going to have to replace the tires and make 2 -3 more payments. It is almost a wash.

cdnpinhead

stickguy said:

and if Washington had any common sense and future vision, they would take advantage of the lower prices to bump up the gas tax to help replenish the highway trust fund.

How much of the highway tax fund is actually spent on highways, as opposed to mass transit, bike trails and who knows what else (possibly unrelated to transportation of any sort)? I honestly don't know, but have watched various governments spend fuel tax money on all sorts of things besides highways.

robr2

cdnpinhead said:

stickguy said:

and if Washington had any common sense and future vision, they would take advantage of the lower prices to bump up the gas tax to help replenish the highway trust fund.

How much of the highway tax fund is actually spent on highways, as opposed to mass transit, bike trails and who knows what else (possibly unrelated to transportation of any sort)? I honestly don't know, but have watched various governments spend fuel tax money on all sorts of things besides highways.

Appx 85% of the federal gas tax is used to fund highway and bridge construction and repair. The rest is used for transit projects.

Mr_Shiftright

Gas tax should funnel directly into a) repairing infrastructure used by vehicles, and b) repairing the environmental damage done to extract the product. That way you get a double benefit for your money.

robr2

Mr_Shiftright said:

Gas tax should funnel directly into a) repairing infrastructure used by vehicles, and b) repairing the environmental damage done to extract the product. That way you get a double benefit for your money.

Funding transit is a benefit to drivers as well. 35 million trips a day are taken via transit systems. Imagine the traffic if all those trips were done by car?

fezo

stickguy said:

and if Washington had any common sense and future vision, they would take advantage of the lower prices to bump up the gas tax to help replenish the highway trust fund.

And if your aunt had.... Oh, never mind....

houdini1

robr2 said:

cdnpinhead said:

stickguy said:

and if Washington had any common sense and future vision, they would take advantage of the lower prices to bump up the gas tax to help replenish the highway trust fund.

How much of the highway tax fund is actually spent on highways, as opposed to mass transit, bike trails and who knows what else (possibly unrelated to transportation of any sort)? I honestly don't know, but have watched various governments spend fuel tax money on all sorts of things besides highways.

Appx 85% of the federal gas tax is used to fund highway and bridge construction and repair. The rest is used for transit projects.

Heritage Foundation says more like 70% for road and bridge construction and repair.

graphicguy

I never did understand, whenever we have lower prices for anything, why anyone wants to spend more by raising taxes? Once those taxes are raised, they'll NEVER retreat.

And, God forbid, we ever get into a fix where oil companies find another way to raise prices, who is going to keep paying those higher taxes?

Let's just crush being held hostage by oil companies and their suppliers. Overall, it's better for EVERYONE and would go a long way to stimulating an economy that still needs stimulation instead of trying to spend our way out of good fortune.

This kind of reminds me of those TV shows that retrace some of the people who have won the lottery. Many make good use out of their good fortune, do good by their families, become more philanthropic, etc.

Others can't wait to spend every lucky dime they receive and end up in bankruptcy court.

Let's not go on a spending spree with higher taxes just yet. How about any public works that need to be tended to, we use some of the money saved by the reduced defense funds? How about getting the job done by offering illegal immigrants the chance to be legal immigrants by starting a public works highway fund where they can work.

There are all sorts of ways to correct any highway, roads and bridges issues other than raise taxes on gas, which affects just about all of us.

(stepping meekly off my soap box)

robr2

houdini1 said:

robr2 said:

cdnpinhead said:

stickguy said:

and if Washington had any common sense and future vision, they would take advantage of the lower prices to bump up the gas tax to help replenish the highway trust fund.

How much of the highway tax fund is actually spent on highways, as opposed to mass transit, bike trails and who knows what else (possibly unrelated to transportation of any sort)? I honestly don't know, but have watched various governments spend fuel tax money on all sorts of things besides highways.

Appx 85% of the federal gas tax is used to fund highway and bridge construction and repair. The rest is used for transit projects.

Heritage Foundation says more like 70% for road and bridge construction and repair.

Your number is from a conservative think tank, mine is from a liberal one. Let's say it's somewhere in the middle.

robr2

graphicguy said:

Let's just crush being held hostage by oil companies and their suppliers. Overall, it's better for EVERYONE and would go a long way to stimulating an economy that still needs stimulation instead of trying to spend our way out of good fortune.

IMHO, the only way to crush being held hostage by the oil companies and their suppliers is to lessen our dependence on oil and gasoline.

But unless people are willing to sacrifice something, it will never happen.

cdnpinhead

robr2 said:

But unless people are willing to sacrifice something, it will never happen.

Which, in part, is why the U.S. has a 18 trillion dollar national debt rocketing toward 20.

Michaell

graphicguy said:

I never did understand, whenever we have lower prices for anything, why anyone wants to spend more by raising taxes? Once those taxes are raised, they'll NEVER retreat.

And, God forbid, we ever get into a fix where oil companies find another way to raise prices, who is going to keep paying those higher taxes?

Let's just crush being held hostage by oil companies and their suppliers. Overall, it's better for EVERYONE and would go a long way to stimulating an economy that still needs stimulation instead of trying to spend our way out of good fortune.

This kind of reminds me of those TV shows that retrace some of the people who have won the lottery. Many make good use out of their good fortune, do good by their families, become more philanthropic, etc.

Others can't wait to spend every lucky dime they receive and end up in bankruptcy court.

Let's not go on a spending spree with higher taxes just yet. How about any public works that need to be tended to, we use some of the money saved by the reduced defense funds? How about getting the job done by offering illegal immigrants the chance to be legal immigrants by starting a public works highway fund where they can work.

There are all sorts of ways to correct any highway, roads and bridges issues other than raise taxes on gas, which affects just about all of us.

(stepping meekly off my soap box)

@graphicguy‌ - I know how you feel about the oil industry in general. However, compared to other western nations, our gas tax is pitifully low. I know the US is more reliant on personal transportation than many nations, which means we have to fund the maintenance of the infrastructure.

60 Minutes recently had an article on this very subject .. the percentage of bridges in need of repair, etc. And how much it would cost.

How else are we going to find the money? I think a gradual increase of the gas tax - .05 every 6 months for, say, 5 years. Not a huge jump that would disrupt the economy.

graphicguy

robr2 said:

graphicguy said:

Let's just crush being held hostage by oil companies and their suppliers. Overall, it's better for EVERYONE and would go a long way to stimulating an economy that still needs stimulation instead of trying to spend our way out of good fortune.

IMHO, the only way to crush being held hostage by the oil companies and their suppliers is to lessen our dependence on oil and gasoline.

But unless people are willing to sacrifice something, it will never happen.

That's the point. We're EXPORTING oil supplies, now. We don't need foreign suppliers

imidazol97

Top tier gasoline:

I am not convinced that the top tier cabal means that much in terms of quality of the fuel. It suggests that other companies don't put in as high a quality of detergents nor as large a quantity of detergent in their fuels. But I'd be surprised if that were true. Otherwise, we'd see cars scattered around which have failed due to problems in the fuel delivery system on the engine.

I recall the days of gasoline companies advertising heavily to convince people that buying premium ws better for them than buying the other two grades. Instead, I have heard some auto repair folk state that the slower burning premium left more soot when burned in an engine designed to run on regular.

On the other hand, I found that the detergents that went into a local large discount store's fuel were the same for the premium as for the regular. I asked the manager. In another case, I found a Cincy-based chain of quick markets with fuel used the same package of additives in their premium as in their regular fuel--I read the delivery slip copy that the trucker had tossed into the garbage can. It showed the 10% ethanol as well as the additive package added to both. BTW, do all companies just blend the premium and the regular to get the Plus mixture for octane level?

graphicguy

Michaell said:

graphicguy said:

I never did understand, whenever we have lower prices for anything, why anyone wants to spend more by raising taxes? Once those taxes are raised, they'll NEVER retreat.

And, God forbid, we ever get into a fix where oil companies find another way to raise prices, who is going to keep paying those higher taxes?

Let's just crush being held hostage by oil companies and their suppliers. Overall, it's better for EVERYONE and would go a long way to stimulating an economy that still needs stimulation instead of trying to spend our way out of good fortune.

This kind of reminds me of those TV shows that retrace some of the people who have won the lottery. Many make good use out of their good fortune, do good by their families, become more philanthropic, etc.

Others can't wait to spend every lucky dime they receive and end up in bankruptcy court.

Let's not go on a spending spree with higher taxes just yet. How about any public works that need to be tended to, we use some of the money saved by the reduced defense funds? How about getting the job done by offering illegal immigrants the chance to be legal immigrants by starting a public works highway fund where they can work.

There are all sorts of ways to correct any highway, roads and bridges issues other than raise taxes on gas, which affects just about all of us.

(stepping meekly off my soap box)

@graphicguy‌ - I know how you feel about the oil industry in general. However, compared to other western nations, our gas tax is pitifully low. I know the US is more reliant on personal transportation than many nations, which means we have to fund the maintenance of the infrastructure.

60 Minutes recently had an article on this very subject .. the percentage of bridges in need of repair, etc. And how much it would cost.

How else are we going to find the money? I think a gradual increase of the gas tax - .05 every 6 months for, say, 5 years. Not a huge jump that would disrupt the economy.

Michaell...I don't want to add any tax we can't get back. If someone proposes a ½¢ tax, that expires in 3 years, with no provision to renew it, I'm listening.