Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

driver100

dino001 said:

I think Detroit is simply unable to profitably make a competitive sedan. They can make a good one at high price or a mediocre one at low price. So they bow out saying “people want SUVs and crossovers”. This will not be end well, just like 90s truck-based Explorer and Trailblazer bonanza ended in near death in 2007/08. Why don’t these people learn?

Good analysis. The Europeans (plus Jaguar etc) have the top end covered and the Asians have the lower end covered, and these two make pretty good cars for the middle section of the market. Where do American car makers excel....trucks and SUVs.? So lets just say that the car market is fading anyway.

I have seen companies that start to lose market - and their strategy is to back out and leave that market, and many times they could have gone in, become aggressive, and be a player in that market. You don't win by backing out!

ab348

driver100 said:

<
I think they really improved the looks of the Regal....but, are they selling 2020 Regals in North America?

I liked the looks of the previous 2011-17 Regal much more than the new one. That rear quarter window/C-pillar treatment is just ugly. Sadly, Cadillac has copied it for the new CT5.

ab348

driver100 said:

dino001 said:

I think Detroit is simply unable to profitably make a competitive sedan. They can make a good one at high price or a mediocre one at low price. So they bow out saying “people want SUVs and crossovers”. This will not be end well, just like 90s truck-based Explorer and Trailblazer bonanza ended in near death in 2007/08. Why don’t these people learn?

Good analysis. The Europeans (plus Jaguar etc) have the top end covered and the Asians have the lower end covered, and these two make pretty good cars for the middle section of the market. Where do American car makers excel....trucks and SUVs.? So lets just say that the car market is fading anyway.

I have seen companies that start to lose market - and their strategy is to back out and leave that market, and many times they could have gone in, become aggressive, and be a player in that market. You don't win by backing out!

I think a big part of it has remained largely under-reported. GM and Ford are trying to minimize their North American production exposure, which is still very expensive despite the changes that UAW/Unifor agreed to after 2009. Pickups are still hugely profitable on a per-unit basis and are mostly only sold in N.A., so they can afford to keep building them here. Small cars? No way. Mid-size and bigger sedans? They are more profitable than small cars but don't sell much, and barely exist elsewhere in the world, so it becomes a judgement call. The Fusion was an old design that needed a few billions invested to update it, so that sealed its fate. The Malibu is a newer platform but is probably on borrowed time.

imidazol97

ab348 said:

I think a big part of it has remained largely under-reported. GM and Ford are trying to minimize their North American production exposure, which is still very expensive despite the changes that UAW/Unifor agreed to after 2009. Pickups are still hugely profitable on a per-unit basis and are mostly only sold in N.A., so they can afford to keep building them here. Small cars? No way. Mid-size and bigger sedans? They are more profitable than small cars but don't sell much, and barely exist elsewhere in the world, so it becomes a judgement call. The Fusion was an old design that needed a few billions invested to update it, so that sealed its fate. The Malibu is a newer platform but is probably on borrowed time.

Decades of having the competition bring in products at a below value currency exchange rate and then able to build plants in US without unionized labor while the US companies are saddled with the union rates for current and high costs for retirees end up with products that sell into fleets to help cover basic fixed costs. Last trip past the rental storage lots at the airport a couple weeks back, I saw lots of other brands than GM and Ford sedans and SUVs stacked waiting for service. Looks like the other companies are selling to the fleets now?

ab348

imidazol97 said:

Decades of having the competition bring in products at a below value currency exchange rate and then able to build plants in US without unionized labor while the US companies are saddled with the union rates for current and high costs for retirees end up with products that sell into fleets to help cover basic fixed costs. Last trip past the rental storage lots at the airport a couple weeks back, I saw lots of other brands than GM and Ford sedans and SUVs stacked waiting for service. Looks like the other companies are selling to the fleets now?

Here are the Q1 fleet sales leaders:

fintail

Not surprised that a third of Nissans are rentals, surprised that Toyota isn't higher, maybe a regional thing. It seems half the rental cars in Seattle are Camrys or Altimas.

driver100

Ah, so that is the purpose of Nissans.......as rental cars!

driver100

ab348 said:

driver100 said:

<
I think they really improved the looks of the Regal....but, are they selling 2020 Regals in North America?

I liked the looks of the previous 2011-17 Regal much more than the new one. That rear quarter window/C-pillar treatment is just ugly. Sadly, Cadillac has copied it for the new CT5.

Talking about rear window C-pillars....this is one that I don't get:

carnaught

How about this C-pillar? Never a fan of it, but they sold well.

https://cdn.jdpower.com/Models/640x480/2011-Honda-CR-V-EX.jpg

driver100

I don't get why they didn't make that back quarter window larger and follow the roofline of the car.

One designer once told me sometimes they make things like that at different angles so you will get tired of it faster.....I think it could be true!

fintail

I think the window line of the CRV and several similar others (Acura MDX comes to mind) is to make it look racier than it really is - kind of a fastback window line on a not so racy actual body. Kind of the false pretense of sport, which sells a lot in all brands.

stickguy

At least ford is more government sales, vs. rentals. All those cop cars!

graphicguy

roadburner said:

ruking1 said:

I don’t know what you do, but it sounds like life is good!

I'm the Commonwealth's Attorney for my county- in KY that means I indict and prosecute felony cases.

Heading down to your side of the river this afternoon. So, do felony indictments in Ohio prosecutable in Kentucky? Asking for a friend!

graphicguy

Spam. Please remove.

And what makes anyone think that anyone here is on Medicare?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note From Shifty: Spam was removed, and thank you all for these heads-ups! Do keep in mind, though, that if you "quote" the spam to show it in your own post, then we have two posts to track down and delete. In a sense you are helping the spammer unintentionally. So it's best to just PM me.

oldfarmer50

imidazol97 said:

ab348 said:

I think a big part of it has remained largely under-reported. GM and Ford are trying to minimize their North American production exposure, which is still very expensive despite the changes that UAW/Unifor agreed to after 2009. Pickups are still hugely profitable on a per-unit basis and are mostly only sold in N.A., so they can afford to keep building them here. Small cars? No way. Mid-size and bigger sedans? They are more profitable than small cars but don't sell much, and barely exist elsewhere in the world, so it becomes a judgement call. The Fusion was an old design that needed a few billions invested to update it, so that sealed its fate. The Malibu is a newer platform but is probably on borrowed time.

Decades of having the competition bring in products at a below value currency exchange rate and then able to build plants in US without unionized labor while the US companies are saddled with the union rates for current and high costs for retirees end up with products that sell into fleets to help cover basic fixed costs. Last trip past the rental storage lots at the airport a couple weeks back, I saw lots of other brands than GM and Ford sedans and SUVs stacked waiting for service. Looks like the other companies are selling to the fleets now?

The only brands that we routinely don’t see are Honda and Subaru (although they buy Subies at auction). Lots of Fords, Nissans and Hyundai/Kia. Lesser amounts of GM, Chrysler, Toyota and BMW. A smattering of Jaguar, Maserati and Land Rover.

abacomike

jmonroe1 said:

Michaell said:

jmonroe1 said:

Had a great day with my daughter yesterday. I took her shopping and she bought some pants, shorts, shoes, etc.  it was so nice to buy her things she needed.  Then we went out for dinner and she had a Caesar salad and a lobster tail and several glasses of wine.  I had part of her salad, sautéed mushrooms and a filet mignon.  Very enjoyable dinner.

She is in North Palm Beach today on a job interview.  Boy would that be nice if she could find something down here.  Great spending some time with her! 😛

@Mike, since you're never going to send me airfare money to come visit you, I'm going to Plan B. What do you think of this? The next time I go to visit my Delray Beach SIL, I'll give you a call and you can treat Mrs. j and I to a nice surf and turf dinner at a restaurant of your choosing. This is probably a better idea, right? jmonroe

You’re on!  It would be my pleasure! 😇

@jmonroe1 immediately navigates to a travel website to book plane tickets... This will be the most expensive free meal we've seen on these boards.

The kicker here is that I get to pick the restaurant! 🤪😜

You can't cheap-out on a poster buddy like that. Remember, Mrs. j will be with me so that won't be a good idea. :@ jmonroe

I won’t - I promise!  It will be a surprise which you will enjoy! 😀😝😎

cdnpinhead

My guess is half or so.

ab348

fintail said:

I think the window line of the CRV and several similar others (Acura MDX comes to mind) is to make it look racier than it really is - kind of a fastback window line on a not so racy actual body. Kind of the false pretense of sport, which sells a lot in all brands.

Anyone who buys a CRV because they think it looks "racier" probably should have their license revoked.

OTOH, Dodge sold a lot of Caravan Sport models. Funny thing was, I never saw the minivan races advertised at the local track.

ruking1

Indeed! H rated tires are “130 mph” tires. Coincidently the (CUV) 2014 MB GLK250 BT runs H rated tires & tops out @ app 125 mph. 😩 No illusions about this one being “ sporty, racy”👀😉

But I think the real design goals have been are getting back to “station wagon lines” for CUV’s, etc. I’ve run CUV’s/SUV’s for 32 yrs + & it’s ALWAYS been a station wagon with MORE ground clearance, etc.

tjc78

Dodge sold a lot of Caravan Sport models

I always thought the ES Caravan was a good looking package at the time. This was the height of the white wheel phase.

ruking1

stickguy said:

I think there is some amount of circular reasoning going on (self fulfilling prophecy). Sedans became a little less popular, so some makers stopped concentrating on them so they got staler, so even less attractive, and thus you end up with a death spiral.

even at lower volumes, they still sell a lot of them, and they should be pretty cost effective. Plus most CUV platforms are car based anyway. So, maybe the answer is to figure out how to make sedans more attractive to buyers, and try to win some buyers back. plus it still to me seems like ST thinking to get rid of them entirely, since that takes sedan buyers (often entry buyers, who you can get "into the family" to move up the food chain),

so maybe you don't need 3 sizes, and cut back to 2. heck, even one can cover up and down if you are smart about design. And stop trying to make family sedans overly sport (so, low and harsher). A higher hip point could appeal to buyers. Stuff like that.

does not seem hard for Ford to maintain a sedan off whichever new CUV platform makes sense to replace the focus/fusion (maybe Jetta sized?). Same with Chevy.

No! Circular reasoning is personified in the government/s requiring American auto manufacturers to continue to build “loss leader” cars. There are way too many examples. It is also circular reasoning to try to get a small car when a large car to truck is wanted or needed. But it’s actually much simpler: too few consumers chasing too many (artificially dictated) products.

USA governments have for decades if not generations forced American car makers to make & sell “loss leader” small “cars”. On the other hand, CUV’s to pick up trucks that have insured USA jobs & profitability were wildly vilified on many areas (with little to no truth) as if jobs & profitability are bad words.

It may not be obvious to people who have little to no sensitivity to business, but business will not long remain in business continuing the sale of “loss leader” small cars because those in charge with little to no sensitivity to business fantasize about robber baron profits. So it’s probably pretty obvious what consumers really wanted/want/continue to.

So for example, the other hand clapping is that in today’s car market, there are literal STEALS in the small to medium size car/sedan “loss leader”markets. Yet some of these “steals” almost can’t even be given away?

Fast forward to today’s passenger vehicle fleet, less than 25% & more significantly % falling are small “cars/sedans”. Obviously 75% & a growing % are large cars to PU trucks to trucks. Indeed, I would be surprised if sedans are 20% of the PVF.

So for example, IF I wanted to get a medium sedan today, it would be a 2019 Toyota Avalon. But it doesn’t do Toyota much good unless they can book an actual sale.

Keep in mind that in the 1960’s (59 years ago), compact cars were a TINY sliver of a minority of the PVF. They were really “COMPACT’ in those days.

The pure fact of the matter is automotive manufacturing has actually produced better cars. ANY car in today’s American market is engineered to go 100,000 miles to 150,000 miles “first major tune up” & truly beyond.

Here is a car whose engine had to be rebuilt at approximately 225,000 miles https://news.yahoo.com/apos-ll-never-guess-many-132121899.html

imidazol97

ruking1 said:

USA governments have for decades if not generations forced American car makers to make & sell “loss leader” small “cars”. On the other hand, CUV’s to pick up trucks that have insured USA jobs & profitability were wildly vilified on many areas (with little to no truth) as if jobs & profitability are bad words.

The pure fact of the matter is automotive manufacturing has actually produced better cars. ANY car in today’s American market is engineered to go 100,000 miles to 150,000 miles “first major tune up” & truly beyond.

Here is a car whose engine had to be rebuilt at approximately 225,000 miles https://news.yahoo.com/apos-ll-never-guess-many-132121899.html

A good increase in gas prices will help rebalance the buying public's choice among sedans and SUVs and pickups/

imidazol97

Ohio increased the gas tax on gasoline and diesel. The bill also includes a reduction in state subsidy monies for the political entities which continue to go against the State's wishes to not use speed cameras and red light cameras.

This Ohio problem was recently discussed here when a member was cited by a camera and was able to get the "bill" thrown out.

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/local/showdown-between-dayton-state-shaping-over-traffic-cameras/I2S5T6fthyMkYunwTXRsCJ/

I tried to link to the article on facebook from Dayton Daily News. The comment section after the article there
on facebook is hilarious reading. Those comments don't show on the article on the paper's website.

Mr_Shiftright

That link needed some tidying up and better direction so I did that for you.

ruking1

imidazol97 said:

ruking1 said:

USA governments have for decades if not generations forced American car makers to make & sell “loss leader” small “cars”. On the other hand, CUV’s to pick up trucks that have insured USA jobs & profitability were wildly vilified on many areas (with little to no truth) as if jobs & profitability are bad words.

The pure fact of the matter is automotive manufacturing has actually produced better cars. ANY car in today’s American market is engineered to go 100,000 miles to 150,000 miles “first major tune up” & truly beyond.

Here is a car whose engine had to be rebuilt at approximately 225,000 miles https://news.yahoo.com/apos-ll-never-guess-many-132121899.html

A good increase in gas prices will help rebalance the buying public's choice among sedans and SUVs and pickups/

IF history is any indicator, the answer is a HUGE NO! When I bought my first diesel, (car) a 2003 model diesel fuel was $1.85 with PUG approximately the same. .....

In addition, any per gallon increase is seen as a pejorative no vote tax on ALL, BUT disproportionately affecting the middle-class.

I will absolutely concede it sounds good in print. The realities (in my case) shred that notion beyond recognition.

@ 18,000 miles per yr. GLK 250 BT posts 36 mpg/500 gal, GLK 350 (like model, PUG) posts 21 mpg/857 gal . You might not guess the % built: PUG/ULSD? IF you want me to connect the dots, I’d be happy to.

(ULSD $4.09/PUG $3.87. = $2045 -$3,317.) $1,272. more per year.

stickguy

The problem is, people can’t buy what isn’t being made.

ruking1

stickguy said:

The problem is, people can’t buy what isn’t being made.

The barrels of oil, domestic, imported ARE being refined & in the USA! In a (42 gallon) barrel of oil: 10 gallons are ULSD, 20 gal are PUG/RUG. EIA.gov

The US system almost from the start was geared to run almost exclusively PUG/RUG. In the GLK ULSD vs PUG example basically, the system wants you/us to burn/consume 71.4% MORE fuel to achieve the same miles. (18,000 miles in my case) BUT far greater consumption/s patterns, etc. are literally hidden in plain sight! This is even as they vilify YOU/US for consuming “too much”.

ULSD vehicles are app 5%.

So to cut to the chase, they are using the same system/s that forced people to buy small compact cars they didn’t want is/are being used to force people into electric cars they didn’t know they wanted. Cutting barrel/s of oil consumption is a TOTAL smoke screen. Everybody knows that barrels of oil consumption is going UP world wide.

imidazol97

Mr_Shiftright said:

That link needed some tidying up and better direction so I did that for you.

If there's a way to hide it, that would help. The access to the Dayton Daily Nothing paper's site is strange. I linked to the article from their Facebook page.

Mr_Shiftright said:

That link needed some tidying up and better direction so I did that for you.

Thanks. I couldn't make the link go to Facebook where the presentation is different and includes comments.
So much to learn, so little time...

Mr_Shiftright

If you're driving that much per year, you probably compare badly to someone driving a 25 year old 4X4--both in fuel costs and emissions.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

If you're driving that much per year, you probably compare badly to someone driving a 25 year old 4X4--both in fuel costs and emissions.

One might think yes. Does it still get 14 to 16 mpg? But it’s mostly NO! A 25-year-old 4 x 4 STILL needs to meet its (in our case) biannual smog certification ! The truth is 2018 certifications are almost unchanged from smog certifications done 20+ years ago ! Smog systems to catalytic converters are stock original. (app 225,000 miles to 250,000 miles) These results are “emailed”, faxed, electronically sent to the DMV. .

The average US driver goes between 11,000 miles to 14,000 miles per year down from 12,000 to 15,000 miles a year. The statistics are in the National Highway Traffic Safety Agency files. So for example, if the average age of the passenger vehicle fleet is 11.5 years the The sum of average miles is between 126,500 miles to 161,000 miles.

abacomike

Sedans/Coupes/SUV's - each has its own characteristics and uses. I used to love coupes when I was younger. They tend to be sportier and have a better feel of the road. As I have aged (my mind as well as my body), I find that coupes are lower to the ground and sit on a narrower chassis making them far less comforable than sedans and SUV's to get into and out of. So, I do not envision myself being behind the wheel of a coupe for many reasons - but most importantly for reasons of comfort.

I have driven many different SUV's. They provide better vision for the driver as well as comfort, but do not provide the ride and handling I prefer. There are many different sizes and shapes of SUV's - some are more like trucks and others are similar to station wagons and sedans. Getting in and out of a typical SUV is extremely accommodating for a person of my age and height, but giving up the handling and ride comfort are not desirable.

That leaves me with the option of sedans which are not as popular or readily available as SUV's or coupes in today's market. I recently drove the Volvo luxury sedan (S90 IIRC) and found it a significant departure from what I remember Volvo's being. It was luxurious, hi-tech, comfortable and quite powerful coupled with fairly good handling and a significantly improved ride. I rate it up there with Mercedes, BMW and Audi.

Thus, I have to admit that the sedan remains my top choice when it comes to buying or leasing a vehicle. I prefer sport sedans that provide a better feel of the road with great cornering, stopping and acceleration. I do not know what the future has in store for me when it comes to deciding on my next car which will present itself in about 18 months, give or take a few months, when the lease on my S450 is up. I have seriously contemplated a Toyota Avalon, Mercedes E Class, Lexus ES350 or even possibly a Genesis G80 Sport, all of which are sedans. I will most probably lease, but I am keeping my options open as to lease or buy. I have opened an account at my bank and have been putting away $2000 per month into a 2.5% money market. That will provide me with about $36,000 for a downpayment on whatever car I decide on. But it will definitely be a sedan.

explorerx4

Here is a link to the Escape introduction at Greenfield Village.
Some of it good/some kind of dry. About 15 minutes long.
https://youtu.be/qhzzo4Uh4PM

explorerx4

Hope these are not going to be the next runaway Camry around here.


There is some amazing video inside the house of some guy getting trying to get the driver out.
Their door was wedged against a doorway, but driver was ok.
Luckily nobody was home at the time.

driver100

tjc78 said:

Dodge sold a lot of Caravan Sport models

I always thought the ES Caravan was a good looking package at the time. This was the height of the white wheel phase.

There are only 2 meanings to the word "sport". The one that could only apply to a vehicle is;
INFORMAL
a person who behaves in a good or specified way in response to teasing, defeat, or a similarly trying situation.

So, in this context, a Dodge Caravan Sport means you drive it but you can take all the smart [non-permissible content removed] remarks people will make for owning it........so in a sense the word does work.

I like the square lines and large windows in that picture.

driver100

explorerx4 said:

Hope these are being the next runaway Camry around here.


There is some amazing video inside the house of some guy getting trying to get the driver out.
Their door was wedged against a doorway, but driver was ok.
Luckily nobody was home at the time.

That is a "still" picture....where's the video?
That picture doesn't look like it is a Camry....some kind of SUV, MB or Highlander??????

PF_Flyer

This was mid-Sept 2018



And this morning another college student in a Mustang with a 5.0L V8 hits the same house



I happened to be at the body shop finishing up some business with them and the appraiser told me about the sill of the house you can see sticking into the car missed the driver by about 6".

We have some incredibly stupid young drivers in cars they have no business trying to handle around here.

ruking1

So I take it the college student was on the eight year 2 year community college plan?😉

ab348

I remember seeing the original picture here at the time. Amazing. I would have to sell and move.

explorerx4

@driver100,
Your first guess is correct.
I didn't really want to post to the video, it's embarrassing enough for the operator in the drivers' seat.

That Mustang held up pretty well, although I can't tell if it hit a tree first like the Corvette.

Mr_Shiftright

Somebody needs to remove the giant magnets in the wall of that house.

stickguy

if I had a house at a corner where people tended to do that, I would install some concrete pilings out near the curb, then plant bushes in front. Keep the cars off the house that way.

ruking1

stickguy said:

if I had a house at a corner where people tended to do that, I would install some concrete pilings out near the curb, then plant bushes in front. Keep the cars off the house that way.

They are WAY cheaper than house structural reconstruction. POOR trees!

explorerx4

There was a house on the end of the end of a T intersection that used to get hit all the time.
Checked google maps and it looks like the house was either moved or removed.
It is bad, divided highway ending with a late down slope and traffic light at the end where you have to turn left or right.

driver100

PF_Flyer said:

This was mid-Sept 2018



We have some incredibly stupid young drivers in cars they have no business trying to handle around here.

I guess one shattered glass panel could have been a lot worse.

driver100

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
Your first guess is correct.
I didn't really want to post to the video, it's embarrassing enough for the operator in the drivers' seat.

Sensitive about that guy....but not about me in my horizontal striped shirt!

driver100

stickguy said:

if I had a house at a corner where people tended to do that, I would install some concrete pilings out near the curb, then plant bushes in front. Keep the cars off the house that way.

Or a huge rock!

....or maybe a moat!

jmonroe1

Here is a cut and paste from Real-World Trade-In Values on 4-3-19 concerning the sale of Mrs. j's 2012 Legacy 3.6R Limited. Just thought you guys would want to hear that after a few years of moaning and trying, I finally convinced her that she needed a new car in the burgundy over beige that she coveted so much. Damn, I'm good.

Well, Mrs. j's 2012 Legacy 3.6R Limited was sold to Carvana this morning. They said they would be at my house at 10 AM and they were a few minutes early. Carvana valued her car at $12,751 and that is exactly what they gave me. The guy had a pre-printed check for that amount so I asked him if the car was not in the condition I said it was, would they just tear up that pre-printed check and hand write me a new amount? The guy said, "NO, they would start the ball rolling again and would have to get a mechanic and / or body guy to come out and re-value the trade. That would take at least 3 or 4 days but that is how they operate. I was just curious.

Here is a little about how they operated with me:

The guy pulls up with a flat bed and comes to the house. I told him to go down to the garage and I'd pull the car out. He takes one look at her car and said, "man, this is a nice car". He has his ipad with him and he takes about 10 pics. He then starts it up, didn't even open the hood, and said, "sounds as good as it looks. Can I take it around the block"? I went with him and I had to coax him to step on it to get it above 40 MPH. He drove it just over a mile to meet Carvana's requirement and we are now back in my driveway. He said all we have to do now is the paperwork. I said OK but, "what are you giving me for my car"? He had this surprised look on his face and said, "just what we said in our correspondence ($12,751)" . We went into the house and did the paper work. He then drove the car onto the flat bed, tooted good bye, and the car was gone. FWIW, I think Mrs. j had a tear in her eye but I told her she would like the burgundy over beige one even more. EASY PEASY.

BTW, he said the car will be going to their New Jersey location for detailing then it will be up for sale in about 2 months. That seemed long to me but he said they are swamped with business right now. Maybe @stickguy will go give it a look see. Son #1 thinks they will list it for at least highish 17K. Does that sound right to you @qbrozen ?

I then called the used car dealer about the 2018 Legacy 3.6R Limited (burgundy over beige with 7,128 miles on it) he had for $26,922 to see if it was still available and it was. Went there and test drove it and did some paper work. I have to go to the bank tomorrow to get some money to pay for it and then it will be officially ours. Another EASY PEASY deal.

I still can't believe that car was worth $12,751. Way better than the $10,500 the used car dealer wanted to steal it for. Maybe I over paid for the 2018 but it seems perfect and I really like the way it drove. Seems peppier than the 2012 but that is probably me trying to justify the purchase.

If anybody wants any more details let me know.

A little later I'll post about the purchase of her replacement car. A slightly used 2018 Legacy 3.6R Limited with around 7,150 miles.

jmonroe

jmonroe1

driver100 said:

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
Your first guess is correct.
I didn't really want to post to the video, it's embarrassing enough for the operator in the drivers' seat.

Sensitive about that guy....but not about me in my horizontal striped shirt!

That guy was innocent. You asked for it.

jmonroe

driver100

ruking1 said:

stickguy said:

I think there is some amount of circular reasoning going on (self fulfilling prophecy). Sedans became a little less popular, so some makers stopped concentrating on them so they got staler, so even less attractive, and thus you end up with a death spiral.

even at lower volumes, they still sell a lot of them, and they should be pretty cost effective. Plus most CUV platforms are car based anyway. So, maybe the answer is to figure out how to make sedans more attractive to buyers, and try to win some buyers back. plus it still to me seems like ST thinking to get rid of them entirely, since that takes sedan buyers (often entry buyers, who you can get "into the family" to move up the food chain),

so maybe you don't need 3 sizes, and cut back to 2. heck, even one can cover up and down if you are smart about design. And stop trying to make family sedans overly sport (so, low and harsher). A higher hip point could appeal to buyers. Stuff like that.

does not seem hard for Ford to maintain a sedan off whichever new CUV platform makes sense to replace the focus/fusion (maybe Jetta sized?). Same with Chevy.

No! Circular reasoning is personified in the government/s requiring American auto manufacturers to continue to build “loss leader” cars. There are way too many examples. It is also circular reasoning to try to get a small car when a large car to truck is wanted or needed. But it’s actually much simpler: too few consumers chasing too many (artificially dictated) products.

USA governments have for decades if not generations forced American car makers to make & sell “loss leader” small “cars”. On the other hand, CUV’s to pick up trucks that have insured USA jobs & profitability were wildly vilified on many areas (with little to no truth) as if jobs & profitability are bad words.

It may not be obvious to people who have little to no sensitivity to business, but business will not long remain in business continuing the sale of “loss leader” small cars because those in charge with little to no sensitivity to business fantasize about robber baron profits. So it’s probably pretty obvious what consumers really wanted/want/continue to.

So for example, the other hand clapping is that in today’s car market, there are literal STEALS in the small to medium size car/sedan “loss leader”markets. Yet some of these “steals” almost can’t even be given away?

Fast forward to today’s passenger vehicle fleet, less than 25% & more significantly % falling are small “cars/sedans”. Obviously 75% & a growing % are large cars to PU trucks to trucks. Indeed, I would be surprised if sedans are 20% of the PVF.

So for example, IF I wanted to get a medium sedan today, it would be a 2019 Toyota Avalon. But it doesn’t do Toyota much good unless they can book an actual sale.

Keep in mind that in the 1960’s (59 years ago), compact cars were a TINY sliver of a minority of the PVF. They were really “COMPACT’ in those days.

The pure fact of the matter is automotive manufacturing has actually produced better cars. ANY car in today’s American market is engineered to go 100,000 miles to 150,000 miles “first major tune up” & truly beyond.

Here is a car whose engine had to be rebuilt at approximately 225,000 miles https://news.yahoo.com/apos-ll-never-guess-many-132121899.html

Ruking, are you trying for the JMonroe how to put someone asleep award for longest post of the month?

explorerx4

@driver100,
Sensitive about what guy???