Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

Mr_Shiftright

Well it seems that the Prius and the Golf TDI post just about the same MPG, so then the gas /hybrid car would be cheaper, based on the differential between regular and diesel.

driver100

abacomike said:

Down here in South Florida, according to my GasBuddy App, diesel is running 5-6 cents a gallon more than PUL.  With diesel prices being so low, diesel would be the preferred engine/fuel for high mpg's.

Seems Diesel would be the way to go if mileage is 33% greater then.

Hey Mike, how can I email you directly to try and set something up for me coming down there?

robr2

driver100 said:

But, my friend says he lost $50k in the stock market because of the oil bubble. What about the lost spending power of that?

Did he really lose $50K or did he lose $50K of the return he could have made had he sold at the top?

stever

The differential here was running between .75 cents and a $1 a gallon yesterday. There's more two refineries being struck by the Steelworkers Union so gas prices will likely pop right up even if BP manages to keep the plants running. Remains to be seen if diesel will too (you think it'd go up too, but it may not go up as fast as gas).

jayrider

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well it seems that the Prius and the Golf TDI post just about the same MPG, so then the gas /hybrid car would be cheaper, based on the differential between regular and diesel.

Maintenance for the Prius is super cheap. $50 every 10k miles and no $4-500 transmission service. The Golf will be more fun to drive but that means nothing to me.

Mr_Shiftright

I suppose it would be fairer to compare the TDI to the best MPG of a non-hybrid gas car. Or fairer yet, compare a gas SUV to a diesel SUV.

fezo

Mike - great to have you back at home.

I'll spare the hospital stories. I did figure out I've spent at least six months in one or another.

bean - what prostate procedure did they do? No complications? I ask because I'm probably doing that later in the year. It'll be at Sloan Kettering even though for once there's nothing remotely cancerous about it. I just ended up with him as one of the doctors that had to clear me on the transplant and decided I'd rather do that than stay local. Overnight stay which to me is nothing.

driver100

robr2 said:

driver100 said:

But, my friend says he lost $50k in the stock market because of the oil bubble. What about the lost spending power of that?

Did he really lose $50K or did he lose $50K of the return he could have made had he sold at the top?

He lost $50k from what it was at the top........but that still feels like losing $50k. That does make it feel a little better if you look at it that way, but I think if you once had it, and it is gone, it feels like you lost the total amount.

I would take it hard, but he doesn't, he just treats it as a set back and he will make it up on something else. He's really good at making money in the market. It's not for me, I can't handle those kinds of highs and lows.

thebean

fezo said:

bean - what prostate procedure did they do? No complications? I ask because I'm probably doing that later in the year. It'll be at Sloan Kettering even though for once there's nothing remotely cancerous about it. I just ended up with him as one of the doctors that had to clear me on the transplant and decided I'd rather do that than stay local. Overnight stay which to me is nothing.

I had my prostate removed and some bladder repair in August.  No complications other than normal stuff for that type of surgery.  Pretty aggressive cancer and they are throwing everything at it - radiation & hormone therapy.  But I have total confidence in my doctor and things look good at this time.  When you do surgery, be sure you have confidence in the doctor.  It's easy to get discouraged in the recovery and you have to have trust in him/her.

Good luck.

abacomike

driver100 said:

Down here in South Florida, according to my GasBuddy App, diesel is running 5-6 cents a gallon more than PUL.  With diesel prices being so low, diesel would be the preferred engine/fuel for high mpg's.

Seems Diesel would be the way to go if mileage is 33% greater then. Hey Mike, how can I email you directly to try and set something up for me coming down there?

Is my email address shown in my settings menu?

abacomike

driver100 said:

Down here in South Florida, according to my GasBuddy App, diesel is running 5-6 cents a gallon more than PUL.  With diesel prices being so low, diesel would be the preferred engine/fuel for high mpg's.

Seems Diesel would be the way to go if mileage is 33% greater then. Hey Mike, how can I email you directly to try and set something up for me coming down there?

If you look at my profile, you should be able to see my email address now - I changed my settings to allow my email address to be discoverable.  If it doesn't show, let me know.

jpp75

Glad you're home @abacomike you're right that you can't get any rest in the hospital. Hoping for a speedy recovery now that you're home.

abacomike

jpp5862 said:

Glad you're home @abacomike you're right that you can't get any rest in the hospital. Hoping for a speedy recovery now that you're home.

Thanks jpp.  Still not feeling much better, but at least I am home.

jayrider

abacomike said:

jpp5862 said:

Glad you're home @abacomike you're right that you can't get any rest in the hospital. Hoping for a speedy recovery now that you're home.

Thanks jpp.  Still not feeling much better, but at least I am home.

I'll play a few slots tomorrow with you in mind. Better day on the way.

nyccarguy

Mr_Shiftright said:

PLS AGREE or DISAGREE with the following statements: (in general, "in vast majority of cases", at current pricing) You may disregard any statement you're not interested in of course.

This is just for my curiosity, to support or undermine my preconceptions.

#1-- it is cheaper to heat your house with natural gas rather than electricity, but both natural gas or electricity are cheaper than propane

#2 -- it is cheaper to run your car on electricity than on gasoline

#3-- it is cheaper per mile to run the highest MPG gasoline car than the highest MPG diesel car. (USA only)

#4.-- over the course of 5 years, it is cheaper to buy a car than to lease it

#5 -- a zero interest car loan is always better than a typical rebate, if given the choice.

#1 - I agree 100%.

#2 - as far as a cost per mile basis (fuel only vs electricity only), yes. Plus don't forget about all those "free" charging stations

#3 - I'd have to say yes. As big of a diesel fan as I am, that Prius is just so damn cheap to operate.

#4 - I'd have to look at it on a case by case basis. Too many variables - miles driven, credit score, options, the vehicle itself.

#5 - I'd say yes. It is hard to turn down "free money." There are stipulations that come with rebate money too. To get the rebate, you have to use the manufacturer's finance arm.

nyccarguy

Mike

I'm glad you are home & feeling better. How'd it feel to hop into your E400 & leave that hospital?

driver100

abacomike said:

driver100 said:

abacomike said:

Down here in South Florida, according to my GasBuddy App, diesel is running 5-6 cents a gallon more than PUL.  With diesel prices being so low, diesel would be the preferred engine/fuel for high mpg's.

Seems Diesel would be the way to go if mileage is 33% greater then.

Hey Mike, how can I email you directly to try and set something up for me coming down there?

If you look at my profile, you should be able to see my email address now - I changed my settings to allow my email address to be discoverable.  If it doesn't show, let me know.

I think I got it....will email you soon.

imidazol97

ab348 said:

Oh, be quiet. We had 3 pretty bad storms in the last 10 days or so. This last one really crippled us as there is getting to be nowhere to push the snow. Streets are very narrow and poorly cleared. I think the crews are worn out, or maybe the budget is blown. Lots of complaints and accidents due to slick conditions. I hate winter.

I understand your hate for snow and I sympathize. You've been dumped on this year. A lot in a short time. I saw news coverage of the streets in Boston with lots of snow with no where to go and not enough time to handle it or melt it between dumpings of new stuff.

houdini1

driver100 said:

robr2 said:

driver100 said:

But, my friend says he lost $50k in the stock market because of the oil bubble. What about the lost spending power of that?

Did he really lose $50K or did he lose $50K of the return he could have made had he sold at the top?

He lost $50k from what it was at the top........but that still feels like losing $50k. That does make it feel a little better if you look at it that way, but I think if you once had it, and it is gone, it feels like you lost the total amount.

I would take it hard, but he doesn't, he just treats it as a set back and he will make it up on something else. He's really good at making money in the market. It's not for me, I can't handle those kinds of highs and lows.

He doesn't have any loss unless he panics and sells. Markets always go up and down. If he sells now it would be like selling your house because housing prices tanked. Usually not a good idea.

imidazol97

houdini1 said:

driver100 said:

robr2 said:

driver100 said:

But, my friend says he lost $50k in the stock market because of the oil bubble. What about the lost spending power of that?

Did he really lose $50K or did he lose $50K of the return he could have made had he sold at the top?

He lost $50k from what it was at the top........but that still feels like losing $50k. That does make it feel a little better if you look at it that way, but I think if you once had it, and it is gone, it feels like you lost the total amount.

I would take it hard, but he doesn't, he just treats it as a set back and he will make it up on something else. He's really good at making money in the market. It's not for me, I can't handle those kinds of highs and lows.

He doesn't have any loss unless he panics and sells. Markets always go up and down. If he sells now it would be like selling your house because housing prices tanked. Usually not a good idea.

Sounds like driver's friend handles his investments by looking in the rear view mirror. I never really did that, however I tend to just hold something that has had a loss (imaginary) and never sell. His oil-related investments will probably rise again and he needs to sell them when he's at breakeven if it troubles him to have paper losses on paper gains.

robr2

driver100 said:

He lost $50k from what it was at the top........but that still feels like losing $50k. That does make it feel a little better if you look at it that way, but I think if you once had it, and it is gone, it feels like you lost the total amount.

I would take it hard, but he doesn't, he just treats it as a set back and he will make it up on something else. He's really good at making money in the market. It's not for me, I can't handle those kinds of highs and lows.

Must not be that good if he "lost" $50K.

driver100

houdini1 said:

driver100 said:

robr2 said:

driver100 said:

But, my friend says he lost $50k in the stock market because of the oil bubble. What about the lost spending power of that?

Did he really lose $50K or did he lose $50K of the return he could have made had he sold at the top?

He lost $50k from what it was at the top........but that still feels like losing $50k. That does make it feel a little better if you look at it that way, but I think if you once had it, and it is gone, it feels like you lost the total amount.

I would take it hard, but he doesn't, he just treats it as a set back and he will make it up on something else. He's really good at making money in the market. It's not for me, I can't handle those kinds of highs and lows.

He doesn't have any loss unless he panics and sells. Markets always go up and down. If he sells now it would be like selling your house because housing prices tanked. Usually not a good idea.

Agree totally and he would too. Some say oil prices won't go back up for at least a decade though. Of course those same experts didn't predict it would go down 50%.

Nothing is as good as people think, nothing is as bad. But, buy and hold for the longer term is the best strategy.

qbrozen

nyccarguy said:

#5 - I'd say yes. It is hard to turn down "free money." There are stipulations that come with rebate money too. To get the rebate, you have to use the manufacturer's finance arm.

The stipulations aren't always there, but when they are, you can refinance elsewhere after just a couple of payments typically. I did that with the Mustang. I forget the amount of the extra money, I think it may have been $500, to take the 4.9% from Ford Finance. My credit union offers exactly the same rates whether you purchase with them originally or refinance with them. So I took the $500, made 2 payments to Ford, and refinanced at 2.49% through my CU. I also believe that was on top of $2500 to NOT take the Ford 0%.

driver100

imidazol97 said:

houdini1 said:

driver100 said:

robr2 said:

driver100 said:

But, my friend says he lost $50k in the stock market because of the oil bubble. What about the lost spending power of that?

Did he really lose $50K or did he lose $50K of the return he could have made had he sold at the top?

He lost $50k from what it was at the top........but that still feels like losing $50k. That does make it feel a little better if you look at it that way, but I think if you once had it, and it is gone, it feels like you lost the total amount.

I would take it hard, but he doesn't, he just treats it as a set back and he will make it up on something else. He's really good at making money in the market. It's not for me, I can't handle those kinds of highs and lows.

He doesn't have any loss unless he panics and sells. Markets always go up and down. If he sells now it would be like selling your house because housing prices tanked. Usually not a good idea.

Sounds like driver's friend handles his investments by looking in the rear view mirror. I never really did that, however I tend to just hold something that has had a loss (imaginary) and never sell. His oil-related investments will probably rise again and he needs to sell them when he's at breakeven if it troubles him to have paper losses on paper gains.

Imid and rob....he has made a lot of money in the stock market. He lives in a $1million condo, drives a Maserati and Audi RS4, and has an MB (wife's car). He has lost $25k in a day and doesn't worry because he knows he made $50k 2 days before. He accepts these things will happen, doesn't like it when they do, but he does accept it and he will make it back.

I couldn't do it....I have to just go slow and steady. He has given me some great tips and usually reads the market correctly. This was an easy one to get caught on. Most may have thought oil could dip, but who would think by over 50%.

fezo

bean - good. I'll be in for just shrinking an enlarged prostate. I maintain that 8 hours of sleep is better than 4 two hours of sleep. We will see.

As far as snow we keep missing it or catch it as rain because we're at the coast (though we did have some ocean effect snow which in all my years here I'd not seen) but we have one maybe half footer and that;s about it. Of course that's because the storms keep moving east. My brother up in Portland is under six feet of the stuff.

nyccarguy

qbrozen said:

nyccarguy said:

#5 - I'd say yes. It is hard to turn down "free money." There are stipulations that come with rebate money too. To get the rebate, you have to use the manufacturer's finance arm.

The stipulations aren't always there, but when they are, you can refinance elsewhere after just a couple of payments typically. I did that with the Mustang. I forget the amount of the extra money, I think it may have been $500, to take the 4.9% from Ford Finance. My credit union offers exactly the same rates whether you purchase with them originally or refinance with them. So I took the $500, made 2 payments to Ford, and refinanced at 2.49% through my CU. I also believe that was on top of $2500 to NOT take the Ford 0%.

Excellent point. The general "non car people" buying public probably won't take the time to do that sort of research and leg work. You did your homework and pocketed about $3K:)

graphicguy

driver100 said:

imidazol97 said:

houdini1 said:

driver100 said:

robr2 said:

driver100 said:

But, my friend says he lost $50k in the stock market because of the oil bubble. What about the lost spending power of that?

Did he really lose $50K or did he lose $50K of the return he could have made had he sold at the top?

He lost $50k from what it was at the top........but that still feels like losing $50k. That does make it feel a little better if you look at it that way, but I think if you once had it, and it is gone, it feels like you lost the total amount.

I would take it hard, but he doesn't, he just treats it as a set back and he will make it up on something else. He's really good at making money in the market. It's not for me, I can't handle those kinds of highs and lows.

He doesn't have any loss unless he panics and sells. Markets always go up and down. If he sells now it would be like selling your house because housing prices tanked. Usually not a good idea.

Sounds like driver's friend handles his investments by looking in the rear view mirror. I never really did that, however I tend to just hold something that has had a loss (imaginary) and never sell. His oil-related investments will probably rise again and he needs to sell them when he's at breakeven if it troubles him to have paper losses on paper gains.

Imid and rob....he has made a lot of money in the stock market. He lives in a $1million condo, drives a Maserati and Audi RS4, and has an MB (wife's car). He has lost $25k in a day and doesn't worry because he knows he made $50k 2 days before. He accepts these things will happen, doesn't like it when they do, but he does accept it and he will make it back.

I couldn't do it....I have to just go slow and steady. He has given me some great tips and usually reads the market correctly. This was an easy one to get caught on. Most may have thought oil could dip, but who would think by over 50%.

Driver...your friend must be moving a lot of cash if he's gaining or losing $50K over just a couple of days. His broker must love him.

Out of all the commodities, oil is the most volatile. He must know that if he's that deep into the market. He's doing some high risk investing looking for the "home run" return. Tough way to play the market.

I have a college bud who Sr VP of a local investment firm. He handles most of my transactions. He says the market is just a form of legalized gambling. I was talking to him about the Super Bowl. He mentioned that those bettors at least had some metrics they could depend on to make a wager....like player tendencies, coaching tendencies, etc. Don't have that all the time when investing.

bwia

fezo said:

bean - good.
As far as snow we keep missing it or catch it as rain because we're at the coast (though we did have some ocean effect snow which in all my years here I'd not seen) but we have one maybe half footer and that;s about it. Of course that's because the storms keep moving east. My brother up in Portland is under six feet of the stuff.

Marooned in Boston, and yet another snow day. When will it end? Not sure, but today seems to be the heaviest of the last three days...Sorry the pic is sideways; I took it with my Galaxy S-5.

Mr_Shiftright

Better get used to it. Weather patterns are going to get worse and worse (more extreme in both directions) as the years peel off. If you're in Miami, think about leaving now or at least park your car on stilts while you're gone

henryn

qbrozen said:

nyccarguy said:

#5 - I'd say yes. It is hard to turn down "free money." There are stipulations that come with rebate money too. To get the rebate, you have to use the manufacturer's finance arm.

The stipulations aren't always there, but when they are, you can refinance elsewhere after just a couple of payments typically. I did that with the Mustang. I forget the amount of the extra money, I think it may have been $500, to take the 4.9% from Ford Finance. My credit union offers exactly the same rates whether you purchase with them originally or refinance with them. So I took the $500, made 2 payments to Ford, and refinanced at 2.49% through my CU. I also believe that was on top of $2500 to NOT take the Ford 0%.

In general, it's 90 days before you refinance. Although, in actuality, there is nothing forcing you to wait the 90 days. I remember back in 2005, closing on a new Mazda Tribute, I was getting $750 for using the in-house financing. The interest rate was about twice what my credit union was charging, so I asked the finance guy if there was any reason I couldn't take their financing, get the $750 off, and then refinance at the credit union. He told me that if I didn't wait 90 days, the Dealership would be charged back the $750. Not me, as there was no way for them to get back into my pocket, but the dealership. Sounds like yet another wonderful example of the factory screwing the dealers.

driver100

imidazol97 said:

houdini1 said:

driver100 said:

robr2 said:

driver100 said:

But, my friend says he lost $50k in the stock market because of the oil bubble. What about the lost spending power of that?

Did he really lose $50K or did he lose $50K of the return he could have made had he sold at the top?

He lost $50k from what it was at the top........but that still feels like losing $50k. That does make it feel a little better if you look at it that way, but I think if you once had it, and it is gone, it feels like you lost the total amount.

I would take it hard, but he doesn't, he just treats it as a set back and he will make it up on something else. He's really good at making money in the market. It's not for me, I can't handle those kinds of highs and lows.

He doesn't have any loss unless he panics and sells. Markets always go up and down. If he sells now it would be like selling your house because housing prices tanked. Usually not a good idea.

Sounds like driver's friend handles his investments by looking in the rear view mirror. I never really did that, however I tend to just hold something that has had a loss (imaginary) and never sell. His oil-related investments will probably rise again and he needs to sell them when he's at breakeven if it troubles him to have paper losses on paper gains.

Imid and rob and GG....he has made a lot of money in the stock market. He lives in a $1million condo, drives a Maserati and has 2 other luxury cars. He has lost $25k in a day and doesn't worry because he knows he made $50k 2 days before. He accepts these things will happen, doesn't like it when they do, but he does accept it and he will make it back.

I couldn't do it....I have to just go slow and steady. He has given me some great tips and usually reads the market correctly, but I don't have cash around when he makes his forecasts, and I just can't do it. Oil was an easy one to get caught on. Many may have thought oil could dip, but who would think by over 50%. And, though oil has dipped he would have expected that, but, generally oil has just kept rising for decades now.

If you think you can predict this kind of thing, guess what price oil will be in one year from now. Past experience means nothing when there is politics and wild card forces at work.

qbrozen

henryn said:

qbrozen said:

nyccarguy said:

#5 - I'd say yes. It is hard to turn down "free money." There are stipulations that come with rebate money too. To get the rebate, you have to use the manufacturer's finance arm.

The stipulations aren't always there, but when they are, you can refinance elsewhere after just a couple of payments typically. I did that with the Mustang. I forget the amount of the extra money, I think it may have been $500, to take the 4.9% from Ford Finance. My credit union offers exactly the same rates whether you purchase with them originally or refinance with them. So I took the $500, made 2 payments to Ford, and refinanced at 2.49% through my CU. I also believe that was on top of $2500 to NOT take the Ford 0%.

In general, it's 90 days before you refinance. Although, in actuality, there is nothing forcing you to wait the 90 days. I remember back in 2005, closing on a new Mazda Tribute, I was getting $750 for using the in-house financing. The interest rate was about twice what my credit union was charging, so I asked the finance guy if there was any reason I couldn't take their financing, get the $750 off, and then refinance at the credit union. He told me that if I didn't wait 90 days, the Dealership would be charged back the $750. Not me, as there was no way for them to get back into my pocket, but the dealership. Sounds like yet another wonderful example of the factory screwing the dealers.

yeah, i asked the same thing. He told me 2 payments. I'm sure every manufacturer has their own rules about it.

driver100

I found this might be of interest...it was in todays Tampa Bay Times:

* About 40% of new car loans are for 61 to 72 months

* 25.7% of car loans are for 73 to 84 months

*25.1% of car loans are for 49 to 60 months

* 3.7% of car loans are for 25 to 36 months.

40% are for 61 to 72 months...which means those people will owe more on their car than what is worth.

houdini1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Better get used to it. Weather patterns are going to get worse and worse (more extreme in both directions) as the years peel off. If you're in Miami, think about leaving now or at least park your car on stilts while you're gone

Yes, if that global warming doesn't let up we're all going to freeze. Article today on Climate Depot said global warming was the biggest science scam in history, and backed it up.

henryn

60 months is the longest I have ever financed a new car, and I've only done that once. 48 months is my norm, and my present loan is for 36 months. If I get carried away and buy something like that recent model Hyundai Genesis I was looking at, I may do another 60 month loan. Maybe. Longer than 60 months isn't going to happen, though.

abacomike

When I buy a car, I have tried paying cash for it so as not to leave debt for my children to have to deal with.  If I didn't have the money to pay cash, I would not buy new cars.

I hold the title to my new car.  This year, I am required to begin taking distributions from my two IRA's, which I would prefer leaving alone, but it's the law.  I have no outstanding debt whatsoever.

As most of you know, I am not a well person and my prognosis for living 5 more years is at the outside of medical practicality.  So I want my children to get something from me other than debts.  That is why I refuse to borrow money when I buy cars.

qbrozen

I'll admit, I've gotten into the habit of 66- and 72-mo loans, but only as long as the rate is similar, which it has been most of the time. For example, on the Stang, the rate for 60 and 66 was the same, but 72 was a bump up. So I did the 66. Only if you take 66 mos to pay it back will it actually cost you more (although very very minimal). Otherwise, I figure I can make the same payments as if it were a shorter loan, but have that buffer there to make a lower payment if anything were to go sideways. The van and caddy are both on 72-mo 1.9% terms. I have a hard time turning away cheap money.

stickguy

5 years seemed crazy until I did it on the RDX. Blame the wife needing her fancy car. If I had gotten something more basic would have the same payment, just 1 less year on the term.

My goal us always to pay it off 2 years early. And I always pur down at least 1/3. Except of course on my first (and probably last) lease, but that was a special college cash flow related sutuation!

Mr_Shiftright

Well great. I hope they move their website hosting to Miami.

houdini1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Better get used to it. Weather patterns are going to get worse and worse (more extreme in both directions) as the years peel off. If you're in Miami, think about leaving now or at least park your car on stilts while you're gone

Yes, if that global warming doesn't let up we're all going to freeze. Article today on Climate Depot said global warming was the biggest science scam in history, and backed it up.

robr2

abacomike said:

When I buy a car, I have tried paying cash for it so as not to leave debt for my children to have to deal with.  If I didn't have the money to pay cash, I would not buy new cars.

I hold the title to my new car.  This year, I am required to begin taking distributions from my two IRA's, which I would prefer leaving alone, but it's the law.  I have no outstanding debt whatsoever.

As most of you know, I am not a well person and my prognosis for living 5 more years is at the outside of medical practicality.  So I want my children to get something from me other than debts.  That is why I refuse to borrow money when I buy cars.

Just as an FYI, your kids aren't responsible for your debts when you die - your estate is. In the case of a car, your kids can just return it to lien holder who will sell it and then put a claim in to the estate should there be any monies owed. They can sell it themselves and pay it off. Lastly, you can bequeath to an heir and only then would they be responsible for the debt.

nyccarguy

I agree with @qbrozen. Cheap money is very hard to turn down. I would have scoffed at the idea of a loan longer than 60 months not that long ago (unless it was a 0% loan), but when it came time to sign the papers for my Legacy I looked at either 1.9% for 60 months or 2.9% for 72 months. It really only costs me more if I take the whole term to pay it out. Once the Pilot is paid off next May, I'll be able to make extra payments on the Legacy and pay it off earlier. The extra flexibility really counts with my mortgage which really taxes my monthly budget.

venture

qbrozen said:

henryn said:

qbrozen said:

nyccarguy said:

#5 - I'd say yes. It is hard to turn down "free money." There are stipulations that come with rebate money too. To get the rebate, you have to use the manufacturer's finance arm.

The stipulations aren't always there, but when they are, you can refinance elsewhere after just a couple of payments typically. I did that with the Mustang. I forget the amount of the extra money, I think it may have been $500, to take the 4.9% from Ford Finance. My credit union offers exactly the same rates whether you purchase with them originally or refinance with them. So I took the $500, made 2 payments to Ford, and refinanced at 2.49% through my CU. I also believe that was on top of $2500 to NOT take the Ford 0%.

In general, it's 90 days before you refinance. Although, in actuality, there is nothing forcing you to wait the 90 days. I remember back in 2005, closing on a new Mazda Tribute, I was getting $750 for using the in-house financing. The interest rate was about twice what my credit union was charging, so I asked the finance guy if there was any reason I couldn't take their financing, get the $750 off, and then refinance at the credit union. He told me that if I didn't wait 90 days, the Dealership would be charged back the $750. Not me, as there was no way for them to get back into my pocket, but the dealership. Sounds like yet another wonderful example of the factory screwing the dealers.

yeah, i asked the same thing. He told me 2 payments. I'm sure every manufacturer has their own rules about it.

I asked my sales guy how long and he said he didn't care. I made one payment to Ford Credit before flipping it to my credit union.

imidazol97

I am reading a book Car by Mary Walton about the process in the Ford Company designing the 1996 Taurus. It's an interesting read after reading a book by Lutz earlier and one about Honda and their methods in the late 90s.

driver100

imidazol97 said:

I am reading a book Car by Mary Walton about the process in the Ford Company designing the 1996 Taurus. It's an interesting read after reading a book by Lutz earlier and one about Honda and their methods in the late 90s.

You mean they actually had a plan when they designed the 96 model? I thought those models weren't the nicest designed cars. I was starting my business then and I needed a wagon or SUV, so I test drove a Taurus and even though I had never had a really special car (pre bmw MB day) the Taurus wagon felt klunky.

I ended up getting a Jeep Cherokee Ltd and really liked my Jeep.

Everything on the inside and outside was oval shaped:


Even the wagon was all ovals:

boomchek

I guess Ford thought that jellybean styling was going to be the future. But these were just over the top in my opinion. I like the first generation Tauruses much better.

imidazol97

driver100 said:

Everything on the inside and outside was oval shaped:


Even the wagon was all ovals:

It's a really interesting book. What you're complaining about, the lack of boxiness, is exactly what they wanted to have to avoid being boxy like their competitors in the midsize range. Besides the appearance difference, which gave a fresh new happy look with a smiling face on the front of the car and bright new headlight techniques for eyes, they effected a change in the engineering to actually be better engineered in what you don't see in the car but which you "feel."

The book also has corroborated some conclusions I had reached about how people treated their Big 3 differently than they treated their foreign brand car when they bought them. That difference in treatment made their experience with their foreign made cars much better than their experience with their previous Big 3 vehicles.

On the other hand, the book is detailing how hard it is to change an "old style, small town department store" (Ford) into the modern design and engineering group that the foreign made cars (Toy and Honda) had. It parallels the parable that I made about the Walmarts coming to compete with the many department stores in the town where Walmart builds.

stever

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driver100

boomchek said:

I guess Ford thought that jellybean styling was going to be the future. But these were just over the top in my opinion. I like the first generation Tauruses much better.

I like the first generation Taurus more too. It was an original and futuristic design that still holds up today, and it comes out especially nice in the wagon version. I have seen Robocop about 6 times now and I love the way they used the original Taurus as a car of the future...with a few modifications.

American cars have come along way and they are probably on a par for engineering and reliability, but, I do wonder what they would be like if the Asian and European car makers hadn't entered the market. In this case, competition was probably a good thing.

driver100

And I like the Sable even more....


By 1999 the Sable was becoming a cartoon of itself:

boomchek

Yeah the Taurus wagon was one of the better looking wagons on the market, still looks good today.