Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

driver100

imidazol97 said:

Son and DIL are looking at Venzas. Hybrid. all wheel drive in all models. Hmmmm.

Any input?

I kept telling him my opinion when he'd bring up different cars. I told him a toyota most likely would give good service without failures that require visits to dealer like the Cruze has had.
I like the 2.5 L NA engine with the electric motor.

He sort of wants to drive the RAV 4 as well to compare.

Toyotas are about as golden as you can buy for reliability and long lasting value.......won't be a lot of fun to drive but some people care more about reliability than the driving experience.

stickguy

look at them both. From the reviews I read, sounds like the Venza is a little more stylish, but less roomy, RAV4 with a few more goodies, for more money.

ab348

I read a review of the Venza just the other day. The hybrid powertrain adds up to only about 220 hp which won't set the roads on fire but should be adequate. The sweet spot seemed to be the midrange model (at least here in Canada where they offer 3 trim levels). RAV4 reviews have been middling at best and indicated it isn't all that great inside and doesn't drive all that well but sells in spite of not being a class leader in any way.

imidazol97

My son's take is the XLE (middle) version is choice value. It has a couple of options like fake leather package (includes power passenger seat) and a 2000$ radio and other option possible.

Otherwise he now is thinking of just getting the top model which includes the options he would have to decide to take or not and lots of other foo foo items like 360 view.

With him and his bride, it is likely a buy and drive till it dies type purchase. His Cruze has small problems. Soon might need brakes and he has no third car unless I give him the Cobalt (trusty) to use while I do or have the brakes done. Brakes might go another 20000 miles, however.

His studying says the Rav4 has fewer technology features than Venza. He says Venza was discontinued and has returned this year. He says it's made in Indiana. Is this one of the shared facility products with Subaru near Lafayette?

ab348

All references I've found to the 2021 Venza state that it is made in Japan, not the US. The original Venza was built in Kentucky but was discontinued in North America a number of years ago. I think the new one is a good vehicle from everything I've seen. A week or two ago I did a side by side comparison between it and the Chevy Blazer. You have to buy the top model Blazer (Premier) to get something approaching the Venza and I think GM is on drugs with their pricing on it. If the Venza drives well I wouldn't hesitate.

stickguy

I have seen tests/reviews that indicate the RAV prime (I think that is the model, probably the plugin) is the way to go. Just better overall.

The old model Venza was cancelled a few years ago (I think it was based on the Camry). The new one is all new, they just dusted off the name, and is based on the RAv4 platform. More style, less function.

I have found that Toyota's pricing and packaging can do that. The top trims are a lot more money, for relatively few extra features (and often ones that you can live without). And the mid level model will have options packages that add most of them for less money (leaving just a few gizmos for the upper trim at a pretty steep premium)

graphicguy

Re Hyundai/Kia recalls for engine fires. The problem isn’t with Kia, as far as I know. It’s with the dealers not willing to do the recall. Not sure the particulars, but apparently the fix takes a ½ day to do and is labor intensive, requiring two mechanics to do it.

Had mine done.

But, my (our?) fears about dealership service are well founded. I don’t know how Kia picks their dealership principals, but they have to be near the bottom on the ratings when comparing dealerships for other brands. Or, maybe mine was particularly bad, as the owner of the Kia dealership is the same owner I fought with when I had my Cadillac.

imidazol97

ab348 said:

All references I've found to the 2021 Venza state that it is made in Japan, not the US. The original Venza was built in Kentucky but was discontinued in North America a number of years ago. I think the new one is a good vehicle from everything I've seen. A week or two ago I did a side by side comparison between it and the Chevy Blazer. You have to buy the top model Blazer (Premier) to get something approaching the Venza and I think GM is on drugs with their pricing on it. If the Venza drives well I wouldn't hesitate.

Only negative is 4 wd and CVT transmission. Venza is built on a platform that RAV4 is related to.

I think the salesman lied about its being built in Indiana. Isn't there a toyota model that is build in the Subaru plant? Or I guess toyota has their own plant?

https://www.toyota.com/usa/operations/map.html#!/tmmi

The downside to Japan productions is getting exactly the model Imid Jr and DIL want in RED
is going to be difficult.

Interestingly the salesman dished a GM vehicle that Junion said he wanted to drive along with the RAV4
when he had time. I think that's unprofessional.

Also tried to impose a hurry up sense that all these "deals" disappear at the end of the month.
I told Junior there likely will be other deals in March or April, if the salesman really wants to
sell a car with no trade-in by good pricing.

Another factor is DIL's parents are car shoppers and keep them a long time. She's been brought up well. The parents bought an A5 by pricing shopping with a Dayton dealer when they came to visit in exactly the car they wanted and the Columbus dealer came down in price. Parents used to have an Equinox but got fed up with the electrical fretting problems.

tjc78

I’ll be shopping for a Venza in 2022......showed my Mom and she wants one when her RAV goes back.

She had a prior generation Venza. It was a great car, but visibility wasn’t great.

imidazol97

There are some quibbles from what Imid Jr was saying about options from LE to XLE to Premier.
I'm not sure a backup camera is included in lower models; Junior might have it wrong.

He said it was very quiet. Should be for the price and the type of cabin, not being truck like.

I'm sure there are some people still stunned that I'm recommending toyota for reliability
rather a GM product. LOL. I have to laugh just imagining it.

I did not recommend Honda because of turbocharged engines.

I like that the toyota 2.5 engine has both port and direct injection. Engineering.

We'll see how well Junior has learned about car buying by walking away and not
letting salesperson make him spend time to make them feel invested in the deal that's too high.

I'm not getting good feelings about the current salesperson and his promises he'd find
the exact vehicle in their 'dealer network' in the color and options. Junior has been prepped
to watch for added charges slipped in, wrong options on vehicle rather than what is told
orally, etc..

kyfdx

imidazol97 said:

There are some quibbles from what Imid Jr was saying about options from LE to XLE to Premier.
I'm not sure a backup camera is included in lower models; Junior might have it wrong.

He said it was very quiet. Should be for the price and the type of cabin, not being truck like.

I'm sure there are some people still stunned that I'm recommending toyota for reliability
rather a GM product. LOL. I have to laugh just imagining it.

I did not recommend Honda because of turbocharged engines.

I like that the toyota 2.5 engine has both port and direct injection. Engineering.

We'll see how well Junior has learned about car buying by walking away and not
letting salesperson make him spend time to make them feel invested in the deal that's too high.

I'm not getting good feelings about the current salesperson and his promises he'd find
the exact vehicle in their 'dealer network' in the color and options. Junior has been prepped
to watch for added charges slipped in, wrong options on vehicle rather than what is told
orally, etc..

LE, XLE or Limited are the trims, I think

imidazol97

imidazol97 said:

There are some quibbles from what Imid Jr was saying about options from LE to XLE to Premier.
I'm not sure a backup camera is included in lower models; Junior might have it wrong.

He said it was very quiet. Should be for the price and the type of cabin, not being truck like.

I'm sure there are some people still stunned that I'm recommending toyota for reliability
rather a GM product. LOL. I have to laugh just imagining it.

I did not recommend Honda because of turbocharged engines.

I like that the toyota 2.5 engine has both port and direct injection. Engineering.

We'll see how well Junior has learned about car buying by walking away and not
letting salesperson make him spend time to make them feel invested in the deal that's too high.

I'm not getting good feelings about the current salesperson and his promises he'd find
the exact vehicle in their 'dealer network' in the color and options. Junior has been prepped
to watch for added charges slipped in, wrong options on vehicle rather than what is told
orally, etc..

He was involved along with fiance's parents buying her Encore. They walked away
from dealer. Dealer called back later.

nyccarguy

@imidazol97

I’m not sure if junior is into leasing or not, but Toyota seems to want to get these out on the road. They have some very attractive lease programs now, especially on the LE model which has the highest residual value.

https://leasehackr.com/blog/2021/2/16/often-overlooked-the-toyota-venza-is-an-incredible-lease-value-276month

ab348

I wouldn’t really hesitate about buying a Venza aside from the CVT. It’s looks remind me somewhat of the Lexus SUV. They all come with backup cameras.

The main issue is the limited color selection. Only 6 paint colours and on many the only interior choice is black. A couple offer a gray option inside. Some also have a “black/Java” combo but in looking at it that one is mostly black also with a few brown accents on door cards. No beige/tan offering surprisingly.

oldfarmer50

imidazol97 said:

There are some quibbles from what Imid Jr was saying about options from LE to XLE to Premier.
I'm not sure a backup camera is included in lower models; Junior might have it wrong.

He said it was very quiet. Should be for the price and the type of cabin, not being truck like.

I'm sure there are some people still stunned that I'm recommending toyota for reliability
rather a GM product. LOL. I have to laugh just imagining it.

I did not recommend Honda because of turbocharged engines.

I like that the toyota 2.5 engine has both port and direct injection. Engineering.

We'll see how well Junior has learned about car buying by walking away and not
letting salesperson make him spend time to make them feel invested in the deal that's too high.

I'm not getting good feelings about the current salesperson and his promises he'd find
the exact vehicle in their 'dealer network' in the color and options. Junior has been prepped
to watch for added charges slipped in, wrong options on vehicle rather than what is told
orally, etc..

I thought backup cameras were mandated for all cars sold in America these days.

What are your concerns about Honda’s turbos, reliability or just turbos in general?

The Mustang 5.0 has had both port and direct injection since 2018.

bwia

The 2021 Mercedes Benz E-Class is supposedly new but to my unrefined and untrained eyes it looks identical to the previous iteration. Let's put aside the forgettable exterior design for a moment. The interior's newness appears to be the gimmicky infotainment doodads. All designed to confuse rather than enhance the driving experience of the older gent who is likely to be the owner and driver of this technological tour de force.

If the intent is to best the Audi A6 and the BMW 5 series in refinement and sophistication it appears that MB has exceeded expectations for the reserved and dour class, albeit at a price premium. Sorry, the attached 14 minute video is a bit long but enjoyable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCMCeKSDRao&t=734s

fintail

It's not new, it's a facelift, maybe a moderate one at that (new front and rear treatments, updated ICE, new steering wheels, a few other things). It's still a W213, which arrived here for MY 2017. There's typically an E-class facelift ~4 years after platform debut.

That pictured model with hood star and formal grille is also not available in North America (but still exists in Germany along with about 10 different powertrain options), and now all wagons here are cladded "All Terrain" models. I don't agree with either decision, and when my term is up, there'd have to be a heck of a deal to make me sign on the line. To be fair, the facelift model has received really good reviews, and I'd pick it over the competition, but that might not be a surprise. I thought reserved and dour was Lexus, MB is just reserved

bwia said:

The 2021 Mercedes Benz E-Class is supposedly new but to my unrefined and untrained eyes it looks identical to the previous iteration. Let's put aside the forgettable exterior design for a moment. The interior's newness appears to be the gimmicky infotainment doodads. All designed to confuse rather than enhance the driving experience of the older gent who is likely to be the owner and driver of this technological tour de force.

If the intent is to best the Audi A6 and the BMW 5 series in refinement and sophistication it appears that MB has exceeded expectations for the reserved and dour class, albeit at a price premium. Sorry, the attached 14 minute video is a bit long but enjoyable.

jmonroe1

imidazol97 said:

There are some quibbles from what Imid Jr was saying about options from LE to XLE to Premier.
I'm not sure a backup camera is included in lower models; Junior might have it wrong.

He said it was very quiet. Should be for the price and the type of cabin, not being truck like.

I'm sure there are some people still stunned that I'm recommending toyota for reliability
rather a GM product. LOL. I have to laugh just imagining it.

I did not recommend Honda because of turbocharged engines.

I like that the toyota 2.5 engine has both port and direct injection. Engineering.

We'll see how well Junior has learned about car buying by walking away and not
letting salesperson make him spend time to make them feel invested in the deal that's too high.

I'm not getting good feelings about the current salesperson and his promises he'd find
the exact vehicle in their 'dealer network' in the color and options. Junior has been prepped
to watch for added charges slipped in, wrong options on vehicle rather than what is told
orally, etc..

You said, “I'm sure there are some people still stunned that I'm recommending toyota for reliability rather a GM product. LOL. I have to laugh just imagining it.”

You are allowed to be wiser when you get older vs. how you felt when you were younger.

Case in point. Until 2005 I never owned a car that wasn’t built by GM. But things changed because I had a ‘95 Bonneville that couldn’t hold paint which GM refused to do anything about even though they knew they had a primer/paint compatibility problem and a ‘95 Monte Carlo with the 3.1L V6 engine that developed a drinking problem because of the infamous intake manifold poor design, I gave up on GM. Having a car that wouldn’t dress properly (Bonneville) and owning a drunk (Monte Carlo), I threw in the towel and never looked back.

Like I said I only owned GM cars till 2005 and I owned every make (some more than once) except for Cadillac. Will I ever own another GM car, while I can’t guarantee that, I’m pretty sure I won’t. I think I’d rather buy a Benz before I’d buy a Caddy. Might even be accepted into the Benz club in here too but I can wait for that.

jmonroe

ab348

bwia said:

The 2021 Mercedes Benz E-Class is supposedly new but to my unrefined and untrained eyes it looks identical to the previous iteration. Let's put aside the forgettable exterior design for a moment. The interior's newness appears to be the gimmicky infotainment doodads. All designed to confuse rather than enhance the driving experience of the older gent who is likely to be the owner and driver of this technological tour de force.

If the intent is to best the Audi A6 and the BMW 5 series in refinement and sophistication it appears that MB has exceeded expectations for the reserved and dour class, albeit at a price premium.

I suspect M-B had some market research that revealed that they were perceived by the coveted and moneyed 30-something techbros and Wall St traders as a stodgy old person's car. Being tired of losing that segment to BMW and Audi they decided to try to change their image. The redesign is part of that and if you've seen their rock & roll TV commercial for the E-Class that becomes pretty self-evident. It's always a risky strategy though, as Cadillac learned when they walked away from their barge-like cars. While their new sporty ones are pretty good, their older customers feel abandoned.

fintail

That's likely it. I can smell the focus groups from here. To be fair, BMW and Audi do generally have a more youthful image and sportier looking products. The question will be any damage from abandoning traditional models (only in some markets, Germans still get anything they want) be greater than potential conquest sales. The MB forums I read were quite displeased at these E facelift changes, but then again, those spending time on a brand-specific forum will generally be traditionalists anyway.

ab348 said:

I suspect M-B had some market research that revealed that they were perceived by the coveted and moneyed 30-something techbros and Wall St traders as a stodgy old person's car. Being tired of losing that segment to BMW and Audi they decided to try to change their image. The redesign is part of that and if you've seen their rock & roll TV commercial for the E-Class that becomes pretty self-evident. It's always a risky strategy though, as Cadillac learned when they walked away from their barge-like cars. While their new sporty ones are pretty good, their older customers feel abandoned.

carnaught

I like the hood star and formal grill on that E Class. The Sport grill is now ubiquitous and it is getting somewhat boring.

driver100

RE 2021 E Class. Most reviews are favorable and it is usually ranked as the #1 car in that market....Edmunds gives it 5 stars out of 5.

They sure are going for a younger demographic with the rock 'n roll commercials. I'm a little prejudice but I don't see too many nicer looking new cars.
PROS:
Exquisite cabin with excellent design and comfort features
Driver assistance technology works great
Vast array of personalization options
High-horsepower AMG models are fun to drive
CONS:
Sedan's cargo capacity is small for the class
Standard suspension can ride stiffly over rough surfaces

Of course the cargo area is small, it has a long hood making it look nicer and allowing room for the powerful engine. And the ride is stiffer than most luxury barges, that is what makes it handle well and give it a sportier feeling. If I wanted a soft ride I'd look for an older Buick.
https://www.edmunds.com/mercedes-benz/e-class/

ab348

I like it but there are a couple of big things that will keep me away from a new one:

1. The way they make everything optional (a heated steering wheel is like $1200 here) which drives up the price significantly beyond what is already an expensive car.
2. Having to deal with a M-B service department.

roadburner

Back to Toyotas, I've been reading my Brit mags, and there are currently only two Toyota automobiles I'd want to own:
the Supra 3.0 and the GR Yaris, which isn't available in the US. As one wag put it,
"No rally-derived hot hatch for you! We give voluptuous TRD Avalon instead! Space for golf clubs and super big grill like majestic blue whale!"

carnaught

Hmm, I have the voluptuous majestic blue whale and don’t even play golf . At two years I still love the car for what it is, and it’s 46 mpg with RUG ain’t too shabby either.

roadburner

carnaught said:

Hmm, I have the voluptuous majestic blue whale and don’t even play golf . At two years I still love the car for what it is, and it’s 46 mpg with RUG ain’t too shabby either.

To each his own; you'd likely despise the GR Yaris and I doubt that even being threatened with an excruciatingly painful death would coerce me to buy an Avalon.
I just wish the GR Yaris was available in the US.

carnaught

roadburner said:

carnaught said:

Hmm, I have the voluptuous majestic blue whale and don’t even play golf . At two years I still love the car for what it is, and it’s 46 mpg with RUG ain’t too shabby either.

To each his own; you'd likely despise the GR Yaris and I doubt that even being threatened with an excruciatingly painful death would coerce me to buy an Avalon.
I just wish the GR Yaris was available in the US.

Your mean you wouldn’t want to track an Avalon Hybrid? Say it isn’t so!

sda

You can see the family resemblance of styling of the Audi Q5 and the VW Passat wheel. BTW, the wheel on the VW is called the Chattanooga, the city where the Passat is built.

sda

I forget which thread there was mention of the GLI and shared that though not a GLI I bought new a 2000 GLX. I found the window sticker.
Not sure why the EPA shows automatic, it was 5 sp manual.

explorerx4

The way things are going, figuring out which sedan is best is like saying one buggy whip is better than another.

roadburner

explorerx4 said:

The way things are going, figuring out which sedan is best is like saying one buggy whip is better than another.

The only sedans that I would really enjoy driving(M340i, Stinger GT2, Charger Scat Pack) are bigger than I prefer. As SUVs go I would only consider an X3 M Comp or a Trackhawk as a replacement for the 2er. Sadly, smaller RWD coupes are likewise thin on the ground.

driver100

ab348 said:

I like it but there are a couple of big things that will keep me away from a new one:

1. The way they make everything optional (a heated steering wheel is like $1200 here) which drives up the price significantly beyond what is already an expensive car.
2. Having to deal with a M-B service department.

I am pretty sure the heated steering wheel in my 2017 was part of a package....they seem to group things into 3 or 4 main packages, some packages you wouldn't buy a luxury car without that particular package....like who's going to buy an E Class in Canada without heated seats and steering wheel.

My MB Service Department is much more trustworthy than the BMW dealership, though I think the Audi dealer was the most honest. However, MB has made some repairs or done some service which was a lot less than expected. But, I am sure I am paying a premium to drive the car......My plan is to tell them exactly what to do since the car is off warranty....no A or B service, just an oil change or new battery when needed, and if they start overcharging I'll go to the indie garage.

stickguy

I don't even consider the Stinger a sedan. That's a 5 door hatch.

driver100

My neighbor made these ice sculptures...one is a Great Pyramid, the middle one is The Colosseum, and the closest one is the CN Tower in Toronto.

driver100

carnaught said:

roadburner said:

carnaught said:

Hmm, I have the voluptuous majestic blue whale and don’t even play golf . At two years I still love the car for what it is, and it’s 46 mpg with RUG ain’t too shabby either.

To each his own; you'd likely despise the GR Yaris and I doubt that even being threatened with an excruciatingly painful death would coerce me to buy an Avalon.
I just wish the GR Yaris was available in the US.

Your mean you wouldn’t want to track an Avalon Hybrid? Say it isn’t so!

I'll take the Avalon hybrid or not....any time over the Yaris.

roadburner

driver100 said:

carnaught said:

roadburner said:

carnaught said:

Hmm, I have the voluptuous majestic blue whale and don’t even play golf . At two years I still love the car for what it is, and it’s 46 mpg with RUG ain’t too shabby either.

To each his own; you'd likely despise the GR Yaris and I doubt that even being threatened with an excruciatingly painful death would coerce me to buy an Avalon.
I just wish the GR Yaris was available in the US.

Your mean you wouldn’t want to track an Avalon Hybrid? Say it isn’t so!

I'll take the Avalon hybrid or not....any time over the Yaris.

That’s because you buy cars to wear and I buy cars to drive.

driver100

roadburner said:

driver100 said:

carnaught said:

roadburner said:

carnaught said:

Hmm, I have the voluptuous majestic blue whale and don’t even play golf . At two years I still love the car for what it is, and it’s 46 mpg with RUG ain’t too shabby either.

To each his own; you'd likely despise the GR Yaris and I doubt that even being threatened with an excruciatingly painful death would coerce me to buy an Avalon.
I just wish the GR Yaris was available in the US.

Your mean you wouldn’t want to track an Avalon Hybrid? Say it isn’t so!

I'll take the Avalon hybrid or not....any time over the Yaris.

That’s because you buy cars to wear and I buy cars to drive.

I would say I like a car that balances driving experience and comfort. I know the Yaris is a great handling/driving car for what it is, but I couldn't drive something that looks like this;

.....and that I have to wedge myself into.

roadburner

As I said, the GR Yaris is a car you wouldn't enjoy wearing- looks/prestige always trump performance in your garage.

driver100

Yup!
Except even if the Yaris was worth $500000 I wouldn't want it in my garage.

fintail

For my wagon anyway, heated wheel was in the "warmth and comfort" package, which also had heated armrests and center console cover. Not sure if that changed for the facelift - sometimes option selections change with a facelift as well (I haven't explored the MY 2021 options in any detail). I suspect heated seats are in what I call a "mandatory option" package - in theory, you could special order one without it, but there's virtually 0% chance of finding such a car on the lot. And yeah, everything is optional - always been that way.

I've never had a real issue with the MB service department, other than price. Prepaid maintenance is usually a good deal, after that, find an indy shop.

driver100 said:

I am pretty sure the heated steering wheel in my 2017 was part of a package....they seem to group things into 3 or 4 main packages, some packages you wouldn't buy a luxury car without that particular package....like who's going to buy an E Class in Canada without heated seats and steering wheel.

My MB Service Department is much more trustworthy than the BMW dealership, though I think the Audi dealer was the most honest. However, MB has made some repairs or done some service which was a lot less than expected. But, I am sure I am paying a premium to drive the car......My plan is to tell them exactly what to do since the car is off warranty....no A or B service, just an oil change or new battery when needed, and if they start overcharging I'll go to the indie garage.

fintail

I am younger than many here, and I already feel way too old for such a car. Maybe when I was 14 I might have thought it was more desirable - far too "look at me" now, not to mention the likely ride/handling/comfort.

driver100 said:

I would say I like a car that balances driving experience and comfort. I know the Yaris is a great handling/driving car for what it is, but I couldn't drive something that looks like this;
.....and that I have to wedge myself into.

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

My neighbor made these ice sculptures...one is a Great Pyramid pile of snow, the middle one is The Colosseum, a pile of snow with notches in it it the closest one is doesn't look like the CN Tower in Toronto.

Fixed it for you.

stickguy

I like a fun car to drive, but at this point, have no real interest in something that beats me up driving it. A 3 series, or a GTI, is plenty "sporty" for my use.

driver100

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

My neighbor made these ice sculptures...one is a Great Pyramid pile of snow, the middle one is The Colosseum, a pile of snow with notches in it it the closest one is doesn't look like the CN Tower in Toronto.

Fixed it for you.

What have you sculpted out of snow lately?

driver100

fintail said:

I am younger than many here, and I already feel way too old for such a car. Maybe when I was 14 I might have thought it was more desirable - far too "look at me" now, not to mention the likely ride/handling/comfort.

driver100 said:

I would say I like a car that balances driving experience and comfort. I know the Yaris is a great handling/driving car for what it is, but I couldn't drive something that looks like this;
.....and that I have to wedge myself into.

I think the key words are " Maybe when I was 14 I might have thought it was more desirable".

roadburner

stickguy said:

I like a fun car to drive, but at this point, have no real interest in something that beats me up driving it. A 3 series, or a GTI, is plenty "sporty" for my use.

That’s a preference I can understand.

roadburner

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I am younger than many here, and I already feel way too old for such a car. Maybe when I was 14 I might have thought it was more desirable - far too "look at me" now, not to mention the likely ride/handling/comfort.

driver100 said:

I would say I like a car that balances driving experience and comfort. I know the Yaris is a great handling/driving car for what it is, but I couldn't drive something that looks like this;
.....and that I have to wedge myself into.

I think the key words are " Maybe when I was 14 I might have thought it was more desirable".

I’d rather drive a car that made me feel like I was14 as opposed to a car that made me feel like I was 114.

fintail

I look at some MBs as the best of both worlds - speed and refinement. My wagon is legitimately fast, probably faster than 98% of cars on the road, yet has a sublime comfortable ride, and high build/material quality. It's also a white station wagon with a traditional grille and hood ornament - it's invisible for those looking for fast cars. A modern day "sleeper" in a way, maybe.

roadburner said:

I’d rather drive a car that made me feel like I was14 as opposed to a car that made me feel like I was 114.

roadburner

fintail said:

I look at some MBs as the best of both worlds - speed and refinement. My wagon is legitimately fast, probably faster than 98% of cars on the road, yet has a sublime comfortable ride, and high build/material quality. It's also a white station wagon with a traditional grille and hood ornament - it's invisible for those looking for fast cars. A modern day "sleeper" in a way, maybe.

I understand that, I’ve owned a few sleepers. I just got the larger sedans out of my system in my 20s and 30s. After that I made a hard turn to coupes and hot hatches. Maybe I’ll want something softer when I hit my 70s, but I wouldn’t bet on it; I suspect that an M5 Competition or Charger Hellcat is about the softest I’d tolerate.

ab348

roadburner said:

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I am younger than many here, and I already feel way too old for such a car. Maybe when I was 14 I might have thought it was more desirable - far too "look at me" now, not to mention the likely ride/handling/comfort.

driver100 said:

I would say I like a car that balances driving experience and comfort. I know the Yaris is a great handling/driving car for what it is, but I couldn't drive something that looks like this;
.....and that I have to wedge myself into.

I think the key words are " Maybe when I was 14 I might have thought it was more desirable".

I’d rather drive a car that made me feel like I was14 as opposed to a car that made me feel like I was 114.

Rare photo of the last time @roadburner tried his hand at a luxury car: