Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

roadburner

As I have mentioned before, if someone ever offers me an obscene amount of money for the farm we are going to build a 2-3 bedroom house(with a 4 car garage) on Seabrook Island, SC.

henryn

roadburner said:

As I have mentioned before, if someone ever offers me an obscene amount of money for the farm we are going to build a 2-3 bedroom house(with a 4 car garage) on Seabrook Island, SC.

That day just might come. And sooner than you think, property values are almost as insane as used car prices these days.

stickguy

But it hasn’t gotten any cheaper down there. Not a bad idea to grab a lot if can find what you want and just sit on it for now.

driver100

henryn said:

The condo in Florida that collapsed and killed all of those people is very sad, and I do not mean to belittle that. But if you read the news stories, they knew about the problems for several years. They tried to pass an assessment of $88k per unit to fix the problems, and the tenants refused. And apparently there are many condos out there with similar problems, perhaps not as serious, but still bad. And the maintenance fees will not begin to fix the problems, and no one is willing to pay more, so …

From everything I’ve read recently, I would be very careful about any condo. Do your homework, not just casually, but seriously investigate.

I think, to be fair, if you heard the building needed $88k per unit in repairs it would be hard to know how serious the problems were. Who can imagine that a condo is going to topple over? And, did the board really warn people about what could happen?
Even the experts can't give an exact reason why the structure failed, so I doubt the people who owned their homes were aware of what could happen.
As mentioned, it is best to really check a place out before buying, but sometimes the faults can't be found - these may have been hard to spot unless you had a really good inspection before buying.

explorerx4

@driver100,
I can't say this is accurate but here is simulation of the collapse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hynHiWE818c

henryn

From 2010 to 2020, I was working in a high rise building in downtown Houston. On floor 32, then 35, then 34. I knew that if anything went wrong (like this, above, or 9/11 incident) I was basically dead. The money was good, mostly I enjoyed the work, and it's just something you live with. You don't have to like it, just live with it.

But I would never choose to live in a high rise.

abacomike

@henryn said:
From 2010 to 2020, I was working in a high rise building in downtown Houston. On floor 32, then 35, then 34. I knew that if anything went wrong (like this, above, or 9/11 incident) I was basically dead. The money was good, mostly I enjoyed the work, and it's just something you live with. You don't have to like it, just live with it.

But I would never choose to live in a high rise.

I remember back in 1966, I had just arrived in Chicago for my MA degree studies. I had not found a place to live yet, so a friend of mine offered to put me up for a few nights in her Marina Towers apartment.

It was on the 26th floor on a very windy night. While laying in bed. The entire building swayed from one side to the other. My friend came out of her bedroom to make sure I was handling the significant movement of the building. I was not handling it well so we stayed up all night drinking several bottles of her wine collection and ate a variety of cheeses. There was no way I could get to sleep in that wind with the significant building movement. I could never live in a high rise building for that reason. Scary as heck! 🤓

cdnpinhead

oldfarmer50 said:

. . . my natural inclination is to keep my vehicles until they just plain wear out.

Works for me.

snakeweasel

@driver100 said:
I think, to be fair, if you heard the building needed $88k per unit in repairs it would be hard to know how serious the problems were. Who can imagine that a condo is going to topple over? And, did the board really warn people about what could happen?
Even the experts can't give an exact reason why the structure failed, so I doubt the people who owned their homes were aware of what could happen.
As mentioned, it is best to really check a place out before buying, but sometimes the faults can't be found - these may have been hard to spot unless you had a really good inspection before buying.

Trying to determine what exactly caused it I'd difficult as for it to happen there likely were several things that happened none of which by themselves would have caused the collapse. It would have been a cascading effect with each cause contributing a bit to the collapse.

cdnpinhead

A crooked builder cutting corners. I'm not making this up.

ab348

From 1990 to 1997 I lived in an apartment on the 21st floor. I never noticed the structure moving much in storms but in high winds the water got sucked out of the drain traps and the toilet bowl had waves in it.

andres3

Can't believe how old this video is and that I never saw or heard of it!! Brilliant young minds!

Absolutely positively shows the absurdity of some of the "speed limit" is the law crowd, but of course, the video flies right over the head of some "lesser" minds and lesser drivers.

https://youtu.be/1B-Ox0ZmVIU

mjfloyd1

The good news- Liberty Mutual finally spoke to the bus driver and has accepted 100% liability.

The bad news- my insurance is still at $300 less than auction value and won’t go up. I filed a complaint with the state department insurance this afternoon. I’ll see what happens.

mjfloyd1

Anyone have recommendations for home and auto insurance carriers?

henryn

mjfloyd1 said:

Anyone have recommendations for home and auto insurance carriers?

USAA if you qualify.

mjfloyd1

My dad is deceased and was in Air Force but I don’t think ever a USAA member..

Wife’s dad was in Army but I don’t think ever a USAA member

bwia

mjfloyd1 said:

Anyone have recommendations for home and auto insurance carriers?

I am very satisfied with Liberty Mutual. I got a $24K roof damage claim from them and my premiums are reasonable after discounts for low mileage, multiple homes & cars; and affinity programs.

driver100

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
I can't say this is accurate but here is simulation of the collapse.

Fascinating, thanks Explorer. Maybe not exact but is probably a pretty good possibility. The building did flatten or pancake...and it seems to be a structural problem. In Florida, you don't know if the building was even made to code or if inferior materials were used. By now the builder is probably out of business or has gone bankrupt, and they know this when they build the building. One of the original builders was a disbarred lawyer from Canada who died a few years ago.

explorerx4

It did seem like the developer did philanthropic contributions after getting into trouble.
I'm pretty sure the lift slab style of construction is banned in CT after a failure during the assembly stage resulted in several deaths when the slabs collapsed.

abacomike

@mjfloyd1 said:
Anyone have recommendations for home and auto insurance carriers?

I switched to Allstate for my auto and condo insurance last October. They were the best in terms of premiums.

I use their Drivewise APP which sends me a refund check of $139 every 6 months for safe driving on my auto policy and just for using it, I get a $41 discount every 6 months.

abacomike

@henryn said:
USAA if you qualify.

I am a member, but USAA won’t insure my condo here in south Florida and their auto rates are double what I pay with Allstate. They wanted $2200 every 6 months. They just don’t want any business from this area of the country.

oldfarmer50

andres3 said:

Can't believe how old this video is and that I never saw or heard of it!! Brilliant young minds!

Absolutely positively shows the absurdity of some of the "speed limit" is the law crowd, but of course, the video flies right over the head of some "lesser" minds and lesser drivers.

https://youtu.be/1B-Ox0ZmVIU

I remember the entitled control freaks doing this years ago. There’s probably a lot of totalitarian regimes who would welcome them.

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
I can't say this is accurate but here is simulation of the collapse.

Fascinating, thanks Explorer. Maybe not exact but is probably a pretty good possibility. The building did flatten or pancake...and it seems to be a structural problem. In Florida, you don't know if the building was even made to code or if inferior materials were used. By now the builder is probably out of business or has gone bankrupt, and they know this when they build the building. One of the original builders was a disbarred lawyer from Canada who died a few years ago.

In a city near me they built a brand new city hall to much fanfare in the mid 70s. By the late 90s the building was falling apart to the point it was in danger of collapse. It was torn down and a big hole is all that remains. The local politicians and asleep-at-wheel local media never questioned why a building that was supposed to last 100 years fell apart after 25. Shoddy construction and undeniable corruption was of no interest to anyone.

snakeweasel

@mjfloyd1 said:
Anyone have recommendations for home and auto insurance carriers?

I use USAA for the BMW and State Farm for the Sonata, as well as the home. I found USAA better for auto insurance but State Farm better for home as well as bundling home and auto (hence the one car with them). I use Progressive for the bike.

driver100

driver100

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
I can't say this is accurate but here is simulation of the collapse.

Fascinating, thanks Explorer. Maybe not exact but is probably a pretty good possibility. The building did flatten or pancake...and it seems to be a structural problem. In Florida, you don't know if the building was even made to code or if inferior materials were used. By now the builder is probably out of business or has gone bankrupt, and they know this when they build the building. One of the original builders was a disbarred lawyer from Canada who died a few years ago.

In a city near me they built a brand new city hall to much fanfare in the mid 70s. By the late 90s the building was falling apart to the point it was in danger of collapse. It was torn down and a big hole is all that remains. The local politicians and asleep-at-wheel local media never questioned why a building that was supposed to last 100 years fell apart after 25. Shoddy construction and undeniable corruption was of no interest to anyone.

Our city hall was built in 1960....a nice new fresh design at the time. It has developed leaks and all kinds of structural problems especially over the last 20 years.
The pyramids were built 4500 years ago and they are fine.....what's the deal?

The city just did an audit of road construction. It found that many road repairs weren't done properly, and companies that bent the rules were still awarded contracts. Work over $500000 is supposed to be put to bid, so in some cases they made the job into 2 jobs at $100000 and $399000. Since the lowest bid is always the one they use some cities are now awarding points for excellent work, and though that companies bid might be higher they can and probably should win the contract.

If this is going on all the time I can imagine how many condos have inferior construction.....scary!

snakeweasel

@driver100 said:
Our city hall was built in 1960....a nice new fresh design at the time. It has developed leaks and all kinds of structural problems especially over the last 20 years.
The pyramids were built 4500 years ago and they are fine.....what's the deal?

The city just did an audit of road construction. It found that many road repairs weren't done properly, and companies that bent the rules were still awarded contracts. Work over $500000 is supposed to be put to bid, so in some cases they made the job into 2 jobs at $100000 and $399000. Since the lowest bid is always the one they use some cities are now awarding points for excellent work, and though that companies bid might be higher they can and probably should win the contract.

If this is going on all the time I can imagine how many condos have inferior construction.....scary!

Well the pyramids aren't fine, the vast majority of the smooth outer stonework is gone. That being said the pyramids are basically just very large square blocks of stone sitting on top of other very large square blocks of stone. Not much to go wrong there. It's not like there are lots of rooms, elevators, plumbing, heating ducts, electrical work, doors and such. not to mention people running around the place causing wear and tear.

explorerx4

Kind of a haunting video of one of the Champlain Tower buildings made about a year ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4rGWH7aDJc

bwia

explorerx4 said:

Kind of a haunting video of one of the Champlain Tower buildings made about a year ago.

Everything looks normal except for the parking garage roof and some cracks on the ground floor. In the featured condo I did not see fire exits, fire extinguishers, or smoke detectors. Otherwise, a very upscale unit probably with a big condo fee to match the opulence.

bwia

Coming soon, in 2024, a battery-electric Ram 1500 pickup is on the way.
This week it was Stellantis' turn to lay out its electrification strategy. A bit late but moving in the right direction. Read full details at:
https://link.autoweek.com/view/601d6b6ea175d0646e72df7dej2ew.739/b871df8e

henryn

abacomike said:

@henryn said:

USAA if you qualify.

I am a member, but USAA won’t insure my condo here in south Florida and their auto rates are double what I pay with Allstate. They wanted $2200 every 6 months. They just don’t want any business from this area of the country.

--------------------end quoted material-----------------------

You are probably correct that they don't want any more business in Florida. As you are aware, USAA is member owned, and any excess funds at the end of the year are distributed to the members. In a good year, that can be a very tidy sum. But there are a lot of military retirees living in Florida (and Hawaii), and when hurricanes hit, there is usually nothing left over and sometimes we even see an across the board rate increase.

I based my recommendation strictly on the fact that when you do have a claim (as a member), they treat you very well. Very well indeed.

fintail

I wonder about the original intended useful life of that building at the time of construction. It's 60 years old now - I bet it wasn't really designed to last longer than that without significant maintenance, just as solid looking 19th century buildings needed a lot of work and were often razed around the time that 1960 building was built.

Residential houses can be even worse - it seems a lot of material from the past 50 or so years can quickly become a teardown unless kept up and original construction flaws dealt with. I suspect some recent builds in this age of expensive materials will be even shoddier.

Lowest bidder mentality and corrupt well-connected contractors can also make things fun. There are a few reasons why so much infrastructure is decaying, and at the same time the leaders of certain firms are untouchable coddled undertaxed zillionaires.

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
I can't say this is accurate but here is simulation of the collapse.

Fascinating, thanks Explorer. Maybe not exact but is probably a pretty good possibility. The building did flatten or pancake...and it seems to be a structural problem. In Florida, you don't know if the building was even made to code or if inferior materials were used. By now the builder is probably out of business or has gone bankrupt, and they know this when they build the building. One of the original builders was a disbarred lawyer from Canada who died a few years ago.

In a city near me they built a brand new city hall to much fanfare in the mid 70s. By the late 90s the building was falling apart to the point it was in danger of collapse. It was torn down and a big hole is all that remains. The local politicians and asleep-at-wheel local media never questioned why a building that was supposed to last 100 years fell apart after 25. Shoddy construction and undeniable corruption was of no interest to anyone.

Our city hall was built in 1960....a nice new fresh design at the time. It has developed leaks and all kinds of structural problems especially over the last 20 years.
The pyramids were built 4500 years ago and they are fine.....what's the deal?

The city just did an audit of road construction. It found that many road repairs weren't done properly, and companies that bent the rules were still awarded contracts. Work over $500000 is supposed to be put to bid, so in some cases they made the job into 2 jobs at $100000 and $399000. Since the lowest bid is always the one they use some cities are now awarding points for excellent work, and though that companies bid might be higher they can and probably should win the contract.

If this is going on all the time I can imagine how many condos have inferior construction.....scary!

driver100

explorerx4 said:

Kind of a haunting video of one of the Champlain Tower buildings made about a year ago.

Haunting is right. But it actually looks better than a lot of condos I have been in....even the condition of the garage.
A condo apartment building was not my first choice of way to live, but since we have a dog, and because you have to go up and down elevators all the time, and since covid, and since that condo collapsed, it is way down on my list of places to make home.

driver100

snakeweasel said:

@driver100 said:

Our city hall was built in 1960....a nice new fresh design at the time. It has developed leaks and all kinds of structural problems especially over the last 20 years.

The pyramids were built 4500 years ago and they are fine.....what's the deal?

The city just did an audit of road construction. It found that many road repairs weren't done properly, and companies that bent the rules were still awarded contracts. Work over $500000 is supposed to be put to bid, so in some cases they made the job into 2 jobs at $100000 and $399000. Since the lowest bid is always the one they use some cities are now awarding points for excellent work, and though that companies bid might be higher they can and probably should win the contract.

If this is going on all the time I can imagine how many condos have inferior construction.....scary!

Well the pyramids aren't fine, the vast majority of the smooth outer stonework is gone. That being said the pyramids are basically just very large square blocks of stone sitting on top of other very large square blocks of stone. Not much to go wrong there. It's not like there are lots of rooms, elevators, plumbing, heating ducts, electrical work, doors and such. not to mention people running around the place causing wear and tear.

I am exaggerating by comparing a 1960 city hall to the pyramids, but there are castles, buildings and homes that are 150 and 200 years old or more that don't fall apart.

ab348

The 22-floor apartment building I lived in during the '90s was built in the 1960s. It was always notorious for leaks even when it was just a few years old. It had a 2-level underground garage that was often wet from snowmelt on vehicles, combined with road salt. The lower of the 2 levels had issues with water permeating through the 1st-level slab, to the point where management slung plastic tarps above many parking spots to prevent drips on vehicles below.

I'm no engineer, but what seemed odd to me watching an animation of the Florida collapse was how the pool deck was used as a structural member. According to the animation, when that deck failed it brought down the buildings. In the one I used to live in there was no such deck and the weight of the building bore on a great many concrete columns that went through the garage to either bedrock or footings. I expect that is typical.

The apartment block I lived in for a while in the '80s was 14 or 15 floors, also with 2 levels of underground parking. The the lowest of those 2 levels permanently had several inches of water on the floor, presumably from underground springs in the area. They still rented parking there!

henryn

ab348 said:

The 22-floor apartment building I lived in during the '90s was built in the 1960s. It was always notorious for leaks even when it was just a few years old. It had a 2-level underground garage that was often wet from snowmelt on vehicles, combined with road salt. The lower of the 2 levels had issues with water permeating through the 1st-level slab, to the point where management slung plastic tarps above many parking spots to prevent drips on vehicles below.

I'm no engineer, but what seemed odd to me watching an animation of the Florida collapse was how the pool deck was used as a structural member. According to the animation, when that deck failed it brought down the buildings. In the one I used to live in there was no such deck and the weight of the building bore on a great many concrete columns that went through the garage to either bedrock or footings. I expect that is typical.

The apartment block I lived in for a while in the '80s was 14 or 15 floors, also with 2 levels of underground parking. The the lowest of those 2 levels permanently had several inches of water on the floor, presumably from underground springs in the area. They still rented parking there!

Several inches of water on the floor? Did you keep rubber boots on hand to get back and forth to the car? I think I would have found somewhere else to live, or at least somewhere else to park.

fintail

The building I lived in before I moved back east of the mountains was a mid-rise built in 2003. Around 2013, the owners had to sue the builder, as the cladding of the building (kind of a composite stucco-like fake stone) was leaking and decaying, at 9-10 years old in a damp but mild climate. The owner won, and the building was covered in scaffolding and tarps for 6 months while the building was re-coated. The parking garage also had cracks and would leak in heavy rain. I wonder what other corners were cut, and I worried what might happen in an earthquake.

A similar building in the neighborhood was under a plastic tent for the greater portion of a year, having its cladding replaced. I wonder how many buildings of this era have significant build quality defects.

ab348 said:

The 22-floor apartment building I lived in during the '90s was built in the 1960s. It was always notorious for leaks even when it was just a few years old. It had a 2-level underground garage that was often wet from snowmelt on vehicles, combined with road salt. The lower of the 2 levels had issues with water permeating through the 1st-level slab, to the point where management slung plastic tarps above many parking spots to prevent drips on vehicles below.

I'm no engineer, but what seemed odd to me watching an animation of the Florida collapse was how the pool deck was used as a structural member. According to the animation, when that deck failed it brought down the buildings. In the one I used to live in there was no such deck and the weight of the building bore on a great many concrete columns that went through the garage to either bedrock or footings. I expect that is typical.

The apartment block I lived in for a while in the '80s was 14 or 15 floors, also with 2 levels of underground parking. The the lowest of those 2 levels permanently had several inches of water on the floor, presumably from underground springs in the area. They still rented parking there!

imidazol97

If the article can be trusted for facts...

"Inspection: A study last year showed signs the building was sinking at a rate of about 2 millimeters a year between 1993 and 1999, said Shimon Wdowinski, a professor with Florida International University's Institute of Environment.
"Sinking was unique to the area of Champlain Towers South, not surrounding buildings, he said. Buildings in nearby western Miami Beach, which was built on reclaimed wetlands, were moving at higher rates, "so we didn't think it was something unusual," he said.
"While the sinking alone likely would not cause the tower's collapse, it could be a contributing factor because "if one part of the building moves with respect to the other, that could cause some tension and cracks," Wdowinski said."

Same article also says this is built on a barrier island.

Sinking rate was from 1993 to 1999. Long time ago. Wonder what the sink rate was for the last 5 years.


https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/24/us/what-to-know-about-the-surfside-building-collapse/index.html

ab348

@henryn said:
Several inches of water on the floor? Did you keep rubber boots on hand to get back and forth to the car? I think I would have found somewhere else to live, or at least somewhere else to park.

The water collected in “lakes” that accumulated in what were presumably low areas of the floor. I only used that level for a short time when I had 2 cars overlapping ownership and needed a temporary spot. I was stunned the first time I saw it. It seemed about 30% occupied.

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
I can't say this is accurate but here is simulation of the collapse.

Fascinating, thanks Explorer. Maybe not exact but is probably a pretty good possibility. The building did flatten or pancake...and it seems to be a structural problem. In Florida, you don't know if the building was even made to code or if inferior materials were used. By now the builder is probably out of business or has gone bankrupt, and they know this when they build the building. One of the original builders was a disbarred lawyer from Canada who died a few years ago.

In a city near me they built a brand new city hall to much fanfare in the mid 70s. By the late 90s the building was falling apart to the point it was in danger of collapse. It was torn down and a big hole is all that remains. The local politicians and asleep-at-wheel local media never questioned why a building that was supposed to last 100 years fell apart after 25. Shoddy construction and undeniable corruption was of no interest to anyone.

Our city hall was built in 1960....a nice new fresh design at the time. It has developed leaks and all kinds of structural problems especially over the last 20 years.
The pyramids were built 4500 years ago and they are fine.....what's the deal?

The city just did an audit of road construction. It found that many road repairs weren't done properly, and companies that bent the rules were still awarded contracts. Work over $500000 is supposed to be put to bid, so in some cases they made the job into 2 jobs at $100000 and $399000. Since the lowest bid is always the one they use some cities are now awarding points for excellent work, and though that companies bid might be higher they can and probably should win the contract.

If this is going on all the time I can imagine how many condos have inferior construction.....scary!

The city hall I mentioned went from this:


To this in 25 years:


Interestingly, the left hand side of the second picture was my farmers market booth.

fintail

What makes the article possibly not trustworthy?

imidazol97 said:

If the article can be trusted for facts...

"Inspection: A study last year showed signs the building was sinking at a rate of about 2 millimeters a year between 1993 and 1999, said Shimon Wdowinski, a professor with Florida International University's Institute of Environment.
"Sinking was unique to the area of Champlain Towers South, not surrounding buildings, he said. Buildings in nearby western Miami Beach, which was built on reclaimed wetlands, were moving at higher rates, "so we didn't think it was something unusual," he said.
"While the sinking alone likely would not cause the tower's collapse, it could be a contributing factor because "if one part of the building moves with respect to the other, that could cause some tension and cracks," Wdowinski said."

Same article also says this is built on a barrier island.

Sinking rate was from 1993 to 1999. Long time ago. Wonder what the sink rate was for the last 5 years.


https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/24/us/what-to-know-about-the-surfside-building-collapse/index.html

stickguy

Farmer, what town is that?

fintail

In Seattle, they went from this in 1976:



To this, in 2000:



IIRC it wasn't paid for until 2015, as the public subsidization of venues for privately owned toys/teams is such a responsible use of resources.

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
I can't say this is accurate but here is simulation of the collapse.

Fascinating, thanks Explorer. Maybe not exact but is probably a pretty good possibility. The building did flatten or pancake...and it seems to be a structural problem. In Florida, you don't know if the building was even made to code or if inferior materials were used. By now the builder is probably out of business or has gone bankrupt, and they know this when they build the building. One of the original builders was a disbarred lawyer from Canada who died a few years ago.

In a city near me they built a brand new city hall to much fanfare in the mid 70s. By the late 90s the building was falling apart to the point it was in danger of collapse. It was torn down and a big hole is all that remains. The local politicians and asleep-at-wheel local media never questioned why a building that was supposed to last 100 years fell apart after 25. Shoddy construction and undeniable corruption was of no interest to anyone.

Our city hall was built in 1960....a nice new fresh design at the time. It has developed leaks and all kinds of structural problems especially over the last 20 years.
The pyramids were built 4500 years ago and they are fine.....what's the deal?

The city just did an audit of road construction. It found that many road repairs weren't done properly, and companies that bent the rules were still awarded contracts. Work over $500000 is supposed to be put to bid, so in some cases they made the job into 2 jobs at $100000 and $399000. Since the lowest bid is always the one they use some cities are now awarding points for excellent work, and though that companies bid might be higher they can and probably should win the contract.

If this is going on all the time I can imagine how many condos have inferior construction.....scary!

The city hall I mentioned went from this:


To this in 25 years:


Interestingly, the left hand side of the second picture was my farmers market booth.

roadburner

Our current courthouse was built over several years-due to numerous fiascos-but I remember that there were serious issues with some of the structural steel beams not being correctly bolted to the foundation. Fourteen years on it has numerous roof leaks and electrical issues. The building that houses my office is considerably better.

snakeweasel

@driver100 said:
I am exaggerating by comparing a 1960 city hall to the pyramids, but there are castles, buildings and homes that are 150 and 200 years old or more that don't fall apart.

The reason those 150 + buildings don't fall down is plenty of maintenance and renovations. Buildings need maintenance.

ab348

After 30+ years working in government I can tell you that in the case of the one I worked for at least, govts are about the worst when it comes to building design, construction and especially maintenance. Up here, everything was designed to be a cheap as possible to build. That does not lead to robust designs. Then once built - using low-bid contractors of course - maintenance usually was close to nil. Maintenance budgets were always the first to be trimmed or eliminated during tough times. That has the expected long-term consequences.

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

Farmer, what town is that?

Troy, NY.

stickguy

back in my days up there, you did not go to Troy. I assume it has improved since then!

Sandman6472

Something tells me the collapse of the Florida condo had to do in part to the sand underneath the building. Thinking a sink hole developed and helped that part of the building collapse. Sure, there were also other parts of the exterior coming off but don't think that's what caused what happened 100%. Folks are looking to place blame right now and sometimes, things like this make it impossible to place blame 100% on somebody or something. Sometimes things like this happen because they're an act of G-d, things just happen. Man likes to be logical and to pin the blame when something like this horrific event takes place in life but don't think this will be a cut & dry situation to figure out to be honest. Just like any catastrophe in life, we're all still trying to wrap our heads around it all, to come to terms with how bad it has become. It's just such a sad situation and am hoping one day soon, G-d will be able to help folks come to terms with it all. May all those folks who lost their lives rest in peace and our condolences to the families of those who lost their lives. I know South Florida is just devestated by it all!

kyfdx

@fintail They imploded Riverfront Stadium in Cincinnati in 2004, I think. I wanted to see it live, but we had an out of town trip planned. They were building the new stadium directly adjacent, so it was not an altogether easy thing. Riverfront lasted 34 seasons.