Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

stickguy

yeah, I never could fill out that survey. no patience at all.

here's a nice looking new body style C class (but the V6). Probably quite the depreciation from new. but also no Navi, which I find surprising on something like this.

http://www.royaleasing.com/detail-2014-mercedes~benz-c~class-4dr_sedan_c300_sport_4matic-used-13678132.html

nyccarguy

stickguy said:

yeah, I never could fill out that survey. no patience at all.

here's a nice looking new body style C class (but the V6). Probably quite the depreciation from new. but also no Navi, which I find surprising on something like this.

http://www.royaleasing.com/detail-2014-mercedes~benz-c~class-4dr_sedan_c300_sport_4matic-used-13678132.html

The 2014s are the year of that body style to get. the 2014s & 2013s (I think) had the upgraded 3.5L V6 instead of the 3.0 L. How does that price compare to what's on the lots of your local MB dealers?

stickguy

less. though I have never actually stopped at the (very nice building) dealer. They would probably throw me off the lot for being riff raff.

http://redlineweb.homenetinc.com/mercedesbenzofcherryhill/details/2014-Mercedes-Benz-C300-Sport/WDDGF8AB6EA953265/

this place I post the links from has very nice cars, quite a bit cheaper. I like these 2 E classes, just missing the P2 package (I like my blind spot monitoring!)

http://www.royaleasing.com/detail-2013-mercedes~benz-e~class-4dr_sedan_e350_sport_4matic_asterisk_ltd_avail_asterisk_-used-13531383.html

http://www.royaleasing.com/detail-2013-mercedes~benz-e~class-4dr_sedan_e350_sport_4matic_asterisk_ltd_avail_asterisk_-used-13531384.html

imidazol97

cdnpinhead said:

suydam said:

Yes, they use their subscriber surveys but it's a huge database.

I'm not so sure it's that large any more. The people who read the actual magazine represent dinasours at their finest, and the on-line demographic probably doesn't skew toward younger people.

Three or four million and I wonder if that includes all the doctor offices and library copies that are mailed out. They have online subscribers, but I see that as a whole different animal.

cdnpinhead said:

I've whined for decades about the self-selected cohort that represents the CR survey database. People who are willing to plod through the very large number of questions related to their car(s) do so because: 1) They're really disappointed with the car, 2) They love the car beyond all belief and/or it represents some sort of green lifestyle (Pious, anyone?) statement, or 3) They have absolutely no life and 20-30 minutes (more or less) spent on a survey represents the highlight of their day. Several posters here, I think, would identify.

I believe you're really segmented CR's group well. I see within the green folks the leftovers of the Ralph Nader era at CR of "Let's all hate GM" because GM was the 9th largest GNP in the world and they were part of the military industrial complex.

cdnpinhead said:

A randomly-selected group of people doing a statistically valid survey would float my boat a lot better, but I'm not holding my breath.

The JD Powers survey is random but has lack of differentiation between levels of aggravations in their complaints. On the other hand, CR has a completely non random survey at work. Add to that CR's ability to use their crystal ball and add to that their likes and dislikes and come up with their stories about what they love and what they hate. They try to appeal to their readers with their results.

suydam

I'm a CR reader and I don't think you can generalize about millions of people. Cars are only a part of what they are about. I do think they are having a hard time transitioning to the digital age. I fill out the surveys because I feel an obligation to do my part. I benefit from other consumers' experiences so I should return the favor. 

fezo

I've always thought that for the Consumer Reports reliability ratings tended to reflect reality pretty well but you did have to take them with the proverbial grain of salt, isell's Accord brakes being anexcellent example of such.

imid - I'm almost sure that was a Camry they unrecommended. Likely the acceleration thing but I can't rule out sludgegate.

explorerx4

Most people I know that are CR people don't seem to represent the general public. I bought a subscription as a favor to my niece. I didn't get anything useful, but my wife might have picked our appliance brand due to their recommendation.

roadburner

CR rated Cerwin-Vega speakers as Very Good. That alone was enough to torpedo any credibility they had with me...

stickguy

I still renew it every year. don't really read it closely, but do pull it out to check on various items. But never cared to fill out that monstrous survey.

stever

I got my first canoe thanks to Consumer Reports. Luckily I was able to dump it without any great loss and get a good one. It was a dog.

bwia

Just attended a seminar on Big Data Analytics. Amazing how mundane pieces of data are turned into information. Given that both CR and JD Powers are in the data analytics business I am pretty sure their findings reflect consumer experiences.

Don't know if CR sells its analytics to manufacturers but I believe JD Powers does sell theirs to the auto industry who uses that info to make product changes long before they reach the marketplace.

Big data is the next big thing and as soon as you walk into a store or click on an online link the company can anticipate your purchase. For example, Amazon's analytics is so targeted that they even silently add items to your shopping cart long before you select that product. So the next time you fill out a survey you are simply adding to the Big Data reservoir.

imidazol97

bwia said:

Big data is the next big thing and as soon as you walk into a store or click on an online link the company can anticipate your purchase. For example, Amazon's analytics is so targeted that they even silently add items to your shopping cart long before you select that product. So the next time you fill out a survey you are simply adding to the Big Data reservoir.

Interesting point. Of course our phones add to the data greatly. The Android phone I have can give location and that I have turned off except when I need the Google maps feature.

driver100

suydam said:

I'm a CR reader and I don't think you can generalize about millions of people. Cars are only a part of what they are about. I do think they are having a hard time transitioning to the digital age. I fill out the surveys because I feel an obligation to do my part. I benefit from other consumers' experiences so I should return the favor. 

I agree sudam. I think surveys can be useful in a general way. If Fiat is at the bottom of a JD Powers reliability survey the odds are you will have a lot of problems if you buy a Fiat.

I use tripadvisor a lot....I have to disregard some yahoo who might complain because he didn't like the clothes the waitress was wearing, but, if 90% of the people say a restaurant/hotel etc. was excellent, chances are it will be excellent.

Same with amazon. I find the reviews written by consumers are very helpful and are pretty accurate.

I like to contribute to both.....since I benefit from consumer reviews I like to contribute.

stever

driver100 said:

If Fiat is at the bottom of a JD Powers reliability survey the odds are you will have a lot of problems if you buy a Fiat.

Well, relative to other cars on the market, maybe. But still way fewer problems than on anything you would have purchased even twenty years ago. How many cars did you see broken down on the drive to the office this last week?

driver100

stever said:

driver100 said:

If Fiat is at the bottom of a JD Powers reliability survey the odds are you will have a lot of problems if you buy a Fiat.

Well, relative to other cars on the market, maybe. But still way fewer problems than on anything you would have purchased even twenty years ago. How many cars did you see broken down on the drive to the office this last week?

Yes, it can be used only in relative terms. I would use the JD Powers or CR surveys to help make a decision if I was buying a car today. I wouldn't be too concerned if a car was average or better...maybe even slightly below average if I really liked that car. But, I would probably avoid the bottom 10% and possibly the bottom 20% if at all possible.

Similarly, if my priority was to find the most reliable car possible, I would probably choose a model near the top of the list.

I think we all know some makes of cars are just more reliable than others, and some are more problematic. Although the surveys can't give you a 100% accurate picture (2014 CTS is near the top of the list, and we know what has happened), it can be of some general usefulness if used wisely.

stever

What always surprises me is how one brand can have some lemon models and some uber reliable ones. Then you get into the "where was it built?" question, especially when a model is built in more than one factory.

roadburner

stever said:

driver100 said:

If Fiat is at the bottom of a JD Powers reliability survey the odds are you will have a lot of problems if you buy a Fiat.

Well, relative to other cars on the market, maybe. But still way fewer problems than on anything you would have purchased even twenty years ago. How many cars did you see broken down on the drive to the office this last week?

I have a couple of friends with Abarth 500s and I follow a couple of Abarth forums. A few cars have had issues but nothing really chronic. Not to say they are as trouble-free as a Corolla, but then you don't risk falling asleep behind the wheel either...

stever

I'd be a little hesitant about buying a Fiat. But I just did about 3,000 miles in an '09 Dodge with 150k on it, so what do I know?

graphicguy

I had heard of Strategic Vision before, but never read their reports.

Interesting one here...
http://www.strategicvision.com/auto_2015_love_release.php

imidazol97

driver100 said:

I agree sudam. I think surveys can be useful in a general way. If Fiat is at the bottom of a JD Powers reliability survey the odds are you will have a lot of problems if you buy a Fiat.

Someone else had said the only meaningful data from J D Powers was that Jaguar was good and Fiat was poor and everything else in between wasn't useful.

In reading about the methodologies I came across a 2014 article re J D Powers by a head of Fiat. He explained the then lowest rating being due to their producing a small number of Fiats because of an early 2015 launch and at the same time having produced a large number of 500L's, a new model with the concomitant higher number of problems.

Now the 2015 data JD Powers still shows high numbers of problems per 100 cars. As Ricky would say, "Someone has some 'splainin' to do."

fezo

What amazes me when you look at that is GM seems to be a reverse pyramid, with Chevy on top, Buick firmly above the overall average (which I fully expected) and then Cadillac way down. Is this any way to run a car company?

imidazol97

graphicguy said:

I had heard of Strategic Vision before, but never read their reports.

Interesting one here...
http://www.strategicvision.com/auto_2015_love_release.php

Their concept is good. I would downgrade Strategic Vision because of the color they use on their website, a gray print. It's very difficult to read. I would think a company studying small influences on customer impressions would consider the reader of their site as a customer and use BLACK text.

LOL

mako1a

GG, I keep thinking about what you're doing with the Caddy. Lawyer, rental cars and dialogue with GM is all fine, but sooner or later you're going to have to prove the car is stalling etc. Even a pic of the ignition in on position and tach at 0 while on the interstate would help prove your case. GoPro video would be better, but nobody is going to take your word for it on a $50k bet. Anybody can say a car is troublesome. You need proof to make a case. Just my opinion.

driver100

mako1a said:

GG, I keep thinking about what you're doing with the Caddy. Lawyer, rental cars and dialogue with GM is all fine, but sooner or later you're going to have to prove the car is stalling etc. Even a pic of the ignition in on position and tach at 0 while on the interstate would help prove your case. GoPro video would be better, but nobody is going to take your word for it on a $50k bet. Anybody can say a car is troublesome. You need proof to make a case. Just my opinion.

That concerns me too. Sorry to keep repeating myself, I think I said I wouldn't. A video clip would go a long ways in showing proof - it always doesz on Judge Judy. I like her knew program too, called Hot Bench with 3 judges.

I also think the car should be at the dealers. If I was an aritrator I would say, how can they fix the car if you keep it in your garage. If the dealer had the car over this time period it would really show they don't know what they are doing.

Finally, I would not trust BBB to do anything. You have to pay them to get a good rating. They are funded by people who buy their certificate. They are like surveys, if you get a lot of bad reviews that company is bad, lots of good reviews, the company is probably ok, but BBB makes its money (I believe) from selling BBB certificates....so how much can they do for you, especially is GM is paying the freight.

berri

Sometimes I think the main point that is differentiating many of these early quality surveys is how well the phone interface works. The main thing holding down D3 cars may be that they still have some fairly old platforms out there. As they get replaced, I think you'll see an even stronger Detroit showing down the road.

fezo

A couple of tidbits.

I have put some miles on the Sentra and would disagree - I've learned to really like it and have no noise issue. Maybe it was built on a Wednesday. So, meanwhile we needed a rental for the Mazda. Found it made great economic sense to go through Costco and bill the insurance since NJM only covers $20 a day and the cheapest thing Enterprise had was $26 plus tax. For about $27 including tax I put in for a full size (As they say "Ford Fusion or equivalent). The had both a Fusion and a Malibu but neither were available so it came down to a VW Jetta, Hyundai Sonata or Dodge Charger, I took the Charger and actually like it quite a lot. There are some funny thing like the AC which is pretty funky to navigate and a special box on the dash right if front of you telling you your speed in km. Totally useless. But it's nicely designed, comfy, quiet and entertaining. I can understand how despite everything they manage to sell these things.

Good thing I didn't know this sort of thing before car purchase. I could have ended up in a Dart.

graphicguy

Mako...I don[t disagree with you or Driver. I'm not driving the Caddy much these days for obvious reasons....steering and/or engine quits. I've gor another car to use (wife's). When I travel, I use rental cars...so that limiits how much I absolutely have to use the car for.

Fact is, so far they don't want to fix it, or admit there's a problem. They don't want to dig into it for long enough to find the problems.

Some of the issues are very apparent (front suspension grind and CUE voice command going south). The other stuff I don't know how a video can show the power steering going out. The stalling might be able to be captured if I have my phone's camera ready when it stalls.

It still is very confounding how Cadillac is treating their customers if I'm any indication. No way their sales will recover with this type of attitude.

I'm willing to ride this out for as long as it takes in order to get this resolved to my satisfaction.

driver100

graphicguy said:

Mako...I don[t disagree with you or Driver. I'm not driving the Caddy much these days for obvious reasons....steering and/or engine quits. I've gor another car to use (wife's). When I travel, I use rental cars...so that limiits how much I absolutely have to use the car for.

Fact is, so far they don't want to fix it, or admit there's a problem. They don't want to dig into it for long enough to find the problems.

Some of the issues are very apparent (front suspension grind and CUE voice command going south). The other stuff I don't know how a video can show the power steering going out. The stalling might be able to be captured if I have my phone's camera ready when it stalls.

It still is very confounding how Cadillac is treating their customers if I'm any indication. No way their sales will recover with this type of attitude.

I'm willing to ride this out for as long as it takes in order to get this resolved to my satisfaction.

And I don't disagree with you GG. And I believe you completely - you don't have a reason to make this stuff up (unless you are a bmw plant or something ).

I just like to have proof on my side. If it gets to court or arbitration it will be your word against theirs. They will say you didn't bring the car in. When you did bring it in they couldn't find anything wrong with it. Their real out will be they couldn't find anything wrong with the car, and if you really had a problem you would have brought the car in and left it with them or another dealer.

I have been through all kinds of business situations where I had to gather some proof. One of the largest publishing companies threatenned to sue us into oblivion and I had to have suppliers sign documents to show the product we were buying was 100% legal. And I kept records to show my manager (SIL) wasn't doing his job properly - wasn't fulfilling the agreement is 3 critical ways. There was a real paper trail in each case that I recorded and had to gather evidence to show I was right - and I don't know if I am missing something but I don't see any concrete evidence. Maybe there is more than I know about, but, right now it sounds like a "He said" "they said" situation.

When I had the Audi situation I had two letters from automotive experts that said a clutch could not burn out after 10k miles. I would have taken the clutch to a mechanic and got a signed appraisal if I was going to arbitration.

Even taking the car to an independent garage and getting a signed document would strengthen your case. It could be me, but I would rather have too much proof than not enough if I was going to court.

carnaught

Too bad GG can't simply take a SM out with him for a test drive, and simply have the issues exhibit themselves. With no service code showing it sounds like the dealership never demonstrated the problem for themselves. Am I wrong, or has the dealership never duplicated the car's problems?

stickguy

no, it seems that the really logical plan of having the SM drive the car for a few days was never done. If the dealer never suggested it, to me it means that they really don't want proof on their watch. Because they are digging in with the "no problem, no code", and if they have it and it craps out on them, they will be stuck with it until fixed, and can't deny there is a problem.

driver100

carnaught said:

Too bad GG can't simply take a SM out with him for a test drive, and simply have the issues exhibit themselves. With no service code showing it sounds like the dealership never demonstrated the problem for themselves. Am I wrong, or has the dealership never duplicated the car's problems?

If there was a test drive I am not aware of it. My BMW dealership was very good about doing that. When I had a problem with a strange noise I thought I was doomed....I was thinking a strange noise will be impossible to find and I am going to pay for hours of labor.

Technician took it for a test drive and knew the tires were worn. New tires and an alignment, the car was fine.

A good mechanic/technician should be able to find out a lot by taking the car for a drive.

driver100

stickguy said:

no, it seems that the really logical plan of having the SM drive the car for a few days was never done. If the dealer never suggested it, to me it means that they really don't want proof on their watch. Because they are digging in with the "no problem, no code", and if they have it and it craps out on them, they will be stuck with it until fixed, and can't deny there is a problem.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear, does it make a sound?

If a car is taken to the service department, and they can't find a code, does that mean there is no problem?

stickguy

it does to them, if they don't even drive it to find out.

graphicguy

Dealers have driven it. Still...no code/no problem!

carnaught

graphicguy said:

Dealers have driven it. Still...no code/no problem!

So, when they drove it, it didn't crap out on them, or they're lying about it doing so.

graphicguy

carnaught said:

graphicguy said:

Dealers have driven it. Still...no code/no problem!

So, when they drove it, it didn't crap out on them, or they're lying about it doing so.

Don't know. All they (two dealers, multiple visits) say is if it doesn't throw a code, they can't fix it.

bwia

Happy Father's Day to all. Last year, on impulse, we bought a Buick Encore. 7,600 miles later we are still enjoying it and have not regretted that decision.

driver100

graphicguy said:

carnaught said:

graphicguy said:

Dealers have driven it. Still...no code/no problem!

So, when they drove it, it didn't crap out on them, or they're lying about it doing so.

Don't know. All they (two dealers, multiple visits) say is if it doesn't throw a code, they can't fix it.

Have they written that down on a service report?

stickguy

It would be interesting to see if a dealer or someone from Caddy corporate support was driving it and it crapped out, what would happen if it still did not throw a code? Would they finally give up and take it back, or just continue to say it must be fine because no code?

I'm surprised they don't at least have some sort of data collector to plug in (like progressive snapshot) so that if an intermittent problem like this happens, they can capture what was going on at that exact moment. though again, that would mean they actually want to confirm there is a problem!

thebean

bwia said:

Happy Father's Day to all. Last year, on impulse, we bought a Buick Encore. 7,600 miles later we are still enjoying it and have not regretted that decision.

bwia, how's the power and mileage?  Those are pretty intriguing and look to have the right size.  Thanks.

suydam

"Happy Father's Day to all. Last year, on impulse, we bought a Buick Encore. 7,600 miles later we are still enjoying it and have not regretted that decision."
We have had our Encore for 5 months. We both love it. No problems with power -- the turbo is great. We are getting 27-28 mpg around town and 33-35 highway. It's the perfect size for us -- no kids at home and 2 dogs.

carnaught

Considering an Encore with all the bells and whistles, love the size. To suydam and BWIA, do you have Nav., and how is/are the audio and electronics? What is/are the things about it you like least?

graphicguy

driver100 said:

graphicguy said:

carnaught said:

graphicguy said:

Dealers have driven it. Still...no code/no problem!

So, when they drove it, it didn't crap out on them, or they're lying about it doing so.

Don't know. All they (two dealers, multiple visits) say is if it doesn't throw a code, they can't fix it.

Have they written that down on a service report?

Yes....I think I quoted their exact words in one of my earlier posts.

suydam

I have the mid level trim with the sun roof. I don't have Nav because I usually use my phone's nav anyway. I guess you also hav Nav available with OnStar but I have not tried it. Audio and electronics are good. We listen to Sirus XM a lot. Wish I had push button start but not a huge deal. I do wish the backup cam had guide lines on it but the rear cross traffic alert more than makes up for it. Love the handling and maneuverability. It's like the Swiss Army knife of cars -- does a lot of things well, looks good inside and out, and is very quiet to boot.

Mr_Shiftright

What they mean is: "If it doesn't throw a code, we don't have the TIME to fix it". They could drive it with test equipment attached, they could run it on a dyno...but who, alas, will pay them for all that?

This seems like a classic "bookends" type of scenario---you, the consumer, being the book, with the dealer pressing on one end and the factory pressing on the other, each one negating any progress. Everything stands still.

IMO, there is only one way to get a business to do something for you---you have to hit them in the checkbook. They have a visceral reaction to any grab for that.

driver100

graphicguy said:

driver100 said:

graphicguy said:

carnaught said:

graphicguy said:

Dealers have driven it. Still...no code/no problem!

So, when they drove it, it didn't crap out on them, or they're lying about it doing so.

Don't know. All they (two dealers, multiple visits) say is if it doesn't throw a code, they can't fix it.

Have they written that down on a service report?

Yes....I think I quoted their exact words in one of my earlier posts.

I am surprised they would put that in writing....but, who knows what they are thinking? One would think they wouldn't want to be dragged into court.....makes no sense.

Too bad Mary doesn't take phone calls like Lee Iacocca used to do.

roadburner

I've about narrowed down my choices...

2015 Challenger R/T- love the interior, borderline fast performance, and retro vibe; what I don't like is the overall size.
2015 Mustang GT- A base GT with the Performance Package and Recaros just scrapes in under my budget. The cloth upholstery however, looks like it belongs in an '80s Hyundai.
2015 WRX STI- Front runner at this point; 0-60 in the high 4 second range is a bit disappointing, and the base radio is garbage- but everything else punches all the right buttons.

The 2012 135i M Sport is out of the running; too many stories of friends having issues with the N55, such as going into limp mode on the track even after an oil cooler upgrade. Then there's the IBS, electric water pump, and other endearing traits that really make long term ownership rather off-putting.

And I may yet find another decent Boss 302 in my price range...

fezo

My money's on the WRX but I could easily be wrong. That's something I'm very good at...

bwia

thebean said:

bwia said:

Happy Father's Day to all. Last year, on impulse, we bought a Buick Encore. 7,600 miles later we are still enjoying it and have not regretted that decision.

@the bean said: bwia, how's the power and mileage?  Those are pretty intriguing and look to have the right size.  Thanks.


I wrote a version of this review last year and what I said then are still true today.

After one year of driving our Buick Encore with all wheel drive, saddle leather, navigation and sunroof, here are my overall impressions:

Pros:
• The Encore appears small in pictures but the interior is very comfortable for four adults. At 6 feet tall and 248 pounds, I have no problem fitting in the driver's and front passenger's seat. I thought I would be compromised in the back seat but there is plenty of head, leg and knee room.
• I have driven the Encore under different road conditions. On the highway, it is silky smooth and quiet, maintaining speeds of 65 mph without the buzzing sound I would have expected in a 4-cylinder engine. In city driving the Encore delivers very spirited driving. Despite its tiny engine displacement it actually felt quick; kudos to low end torque and turbo charging.
• We had a major concern whether the tiny 1.4 liter 138 hp engine could climb steep hills without petering out but the Encore handled those hills (with the AC on full blast to boot) with aplomb.
• The gas mileage is very good. We do mostly city driving and average about 26 MPG.
• The technology on this baby Buick is amazing---back-up camera, blind side detection, front and rear parking sensors and Intellilink.
• Very nice second generation 7" navigation screen integrated with Sirius/XM and GM's much improved Intellilink system. The Intellilink seems a little intimidating but all major functions are voice activated.
• One final comment. While the Encore is pricey, its interior refinement and soft touch surfaces is very upscale (especially the saddle leather) and it addresses very well the comfort of one of its target demographic, the empty nester.

Cons:
• The sunroof is small and feels like a hole in the roof. A panoramic moon roof would be more desirable.
• Front visibility is quite good but not so for rear visibility. This weakness is mitigated somewhat by the back-up camera. But without directional and distance grid lines the camera is not as not as effective as it should. A major demerit for GM.
• The regular stereo is pretty ordinary an upgrade to the Bose system is worlds apart.
• Two areas of concern--the steering feels soft and the breaks a little mushy. I do not like the feel of either. They were just too soft for me but my wife thinks they are just right. Since she is the primary driver I have no quarrel with her assessment.

ab348

I believe Edmunds has the Mustang equipped as you described, and they didn't care for it.

I looked at the cloth upholstery in the Mustang and it is worse than anything in any '80s Hyundai.