Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

isellhondas

Hey, what exactly has happened to Volvo in the U.S.? Sure aren't selling many.

stickguy

Ford happened. they fell a bit behind the competition. Lack of capital most likely. But, they are fighting back!

but not something I would look to buy new for a long term keeper.

stickguy

So, had some interesting visits today. Mostly some usual haunts, all of which are nice, pleasant places to visit and shop. But (against my better judgement) also stopped to look at Jeeps. Some reasonable potential options, but I don't think I could possibly deal with that dealer. Old school ways, and part of the "triplex" where they specialize in bad credit, get anyone financed, etc.

My daughter found the whole thing hilarious. At least the sales guy that showed us cars on the lot was funny. factually incorrect in many ways, but I kind of expected that. He could have a future in Improv.

it was night and day walking into the VW dealer after that.

stickguy

I also found the time to make sure you get paid attention to. for some odd reason, we piled into the care (even my wife came) at 5:00 to run the 20 minutes or so down to the mazda dealer. Just to look at colors in person before they closed. In the pouring rain (though it got worse after we left), with major puddles and some flooding. I felt bad that the salesguy actually came out to meet us as we walked the lot in the pouring rain.

we did go inside once we saw the various colors. And we were the only customers. An assortment of really bored looking sales people and managers, just looking like they could not wait to go home. Not sure what would have happened if we decided to try and deal right then, but I bet getting an answer would have happened quick!

abacomike

Well, in consultation with doctors and my brother, I signed the paperwork to move my Dad to a Hospice which is located in a hospital about 7 miles from me.  They will remove all IV's, drugs, etc., and provide home with morphine as needed and Ativan to make him comfortable.  He is totally incoherent and non-communicative.  He is septic and in renal failure and his heart is starting go into v tack and a fib.  He has not been able to eat in 4-5 days.  It made no sense to maintain him in a condition that could never improve enough to give him a quality of life he had 4 weeks ago.

So, with tears running down my face, I kissed him goodbye 30 minutes ago.  The rep from hospice said it is expected that he will pass in the next 24-72 hours in his present condition.  He will be kept comfortable until the time God takes him.

28firefighter

So sorry to hear, Mike.  I know it's hard to think about, but make sure to take care of yourself as well. 

stickguy

so sad. But he will be at peace. Sounds like he had a long, good life, and was home until the very end.

You certainly went above and beyond caring for him. So bless you too.

suydam

This is exactly what happened to my 93 year old father in January. He gradually and peacefully slipped away from us. It was time. The hospice people were very kind and competent. I know you are doing your best for him. Many prayers.

Michaell

Michael - I am so sorry to hear this, but not surprised. It is his time and you've done everything you can do the way it should have been done.

fezo

Sorry but not surprised. My wife is a hospice nurse and called this a couple of days ahead from what you described. You did everything you could and more and should be at peace. I know that grieving doesn't usually work that way but try as best you can.

ray80

Very sorry to hear Mike. My Mom turned 100 last month and managed to eat birthday cake on her own , then I got a call two weeks ago that her time had come and she passed the next evening. Never an easy thing to handle,

explorerx4

Found a vehicle I'm interested in. Clicked the e-quote button. Got a phone call to set up a test drive. Decided to call back and ask for a price. The price I got, at least I got one, was the same as listed on the website.
It wasn't that great and I told them so. Could be the end of the conversation, or not.

ab348

Mike, I am so sorry to hear the news. You have been a great son to him. Take comfort in that, and remember that this is all part of life, as difficult as it is to endure. My most sincere condolences.

stickguy

Fezo, your wife must be a saint. taking on that kind of work (truly noble), and putting up with you? There will be a VIP room in heaven for her!

stickguy

Explorer, I heard many times today while out shopping, that if I come back in to talk, the managers will be really aggressive. basically saying the online (but agressive) prices were a nice start, but I was not leaving without a car.'

Thursday evening could be fun for us.

fezo

Yeah, they'll probably give her my space...

Right now she's between jobs. Her outfit got bought up by a bigger outfit about 4 times and the latest one is just interested in collecting money from Medicare. Profits before patients. That's not my wife. She's essentially taking June off, some at my urging but she just needs a break. Her old, original employer is looking to get her back when the patient census gets high enough and she may well have an offer next week from another outfit that if she put in a year could make her way more marketable.

berri

Hospice people are great. Tough job, but one that really make s a difference in lives. She certainly has my respect and appreciation.

Mike - it comes down to whether you can look yourself in the mirror and honestly say you gave it everything you had. I think you easily aced that test.

andres3

isellhondas said:

Hey, what exactly has happened to Volvo in the U.S.? Sure aren't selling many.

Yes, they still suffer from overpricing their product by $5K like Ford, but that gets worked out in the real world if people research real transaction prices.

nyccarguy

Mike - I'm so sorry to hear about your Dad.  You did the right thing.  You were his caretaker, advocate, & son.  You did wonderful for him!

andres3

So we got the '07 appraised by VW and the Costco pricing for the Sportwagen. It was a higher than expected, but easily beat anything the Edmunds quotes got me. They lowballed the Honda trade-in value, so I went to CarMax and promptly got an offer for $8K instead of $7K (and that took some back and forth to get them that high at VW). A waste of time; I chided my wife for not having gone to CarMax BEFORE our VW appointment; would have saved a bunch of time.

I don't think I like the salesman anymore for staring so outlandishly low at $6.5K. Everyone knows Honda's never lose any value

They ended up not being able to trade for the car so the deal is off until Monday (or never). They thought they had one 1/2 hour away but I guess it got sold just before he went to get it.

I'm thinking of just offering them a number I like better for the SE again as we went back down to the S since we thought it was overly expensive. Perhaps getting a deal on Sunday rather than Monday (or never) will persuade them.

Michaell

andres3 said:

So we got the '07 appraised by VW and the Costco pricing for the Sportwagen. It was a higher than expected, but easily beat anything the Edmunds quotes got me. They lowballed the Honda trade-in value, so I went to CarMax and promptly got an offer for $8K instead of $7K (and that took some back and forth to get them that high at VW). A waste of time; I chided my wife for not having gone to CarMax BEFORE our VW appointment; would have saved a bunch of time.

I don't think I like the salesman anymore for staring so outlandishly low at $6.5K. Everyone knows Honda's never lose any value

They ended up not being able to trade for the car so the deal is off until Monday (or never). They thought they had one 1/2 hour away but I guess it got sold just before he went to get it.

I'm thinking of just offering them a number I like better for the SE again as we went back down to the S since we thought it was overly expensive. Perhaps getting a deal on Sunday rather than Monday (or never) will persuade them.

When we bought our Subaru in February, I went to CarMax that morning to have our Mazda CX-7 appraised. CarMax offered $12,500, so when the dealer offered $10,500 I simply pulled out the offer sheet from CarMax and told them there was no reason for me not to sell it to them. Magically, the trade offer was bumped to $12,500 from the dealer.

imidazol97

Michaell said:

. CarMax offered $12,500, so when the dealer offered $10,500 I simply pulled out the offer sheet from CarMax and told them there was no reason for me not to sell it to them. Magically, the trade offer was bumped to $12,500 from the dealer.

Years back when this forum had a different name, there were several car sales people present in this topic. I commented that many people were cheated on the trade values of their vehicles, and I believe I was stating that as relative to the number of people taken on the actual price of the new vehicle.

I was promptly ridiculed by one sales person (Louisville area) because I was denigrating the car salesman's business, I guess. It really is on the buyer to know the value of the trade in. I can only imagine how the low information car buyers get taken.

I recall sitting in a car on the floor at a dealer listening to the sales person at his nearby desk telling an elderly couple trading in a Lucerne how worthless they were and how hard they were to sell on the used car lot. That was at a time when I judged they were selling well because there were many used Lucernes showing up bought from dealers that had been trade ins by the many GM workers in the area who had bought them a year or 2 earlier.

Michaell

imidazol97 said:

Michaell said:

. CarMax offered $12,500, so when the dealer offered $10,500 I simply pulled out the offer sheet from CarMax and told them there was no reason for me not to sell it to them. Magically, the trade offer was bumped to $12,500 from the dealer.

Years back when this forum had a different name, there were several car sales people present. I commented that many people were cheated on the trade values of their vehicles. I was promptly ridiculed by one person because I was denigrating the car salesman, I guess. It really is on the buyer to know the value of the trade in. I only imagine how the low information car buyers get taken. I recall sitting in a car on the floor at a dealer listening to the sales person at his desk telling an elderly couple trading in a Lucerne how worthless they were and how hard they were to sell on the used car lot. That was at a time when I judged they were selling well because there were many showing up bought from dealers that had been trade ins by the many GM workers in the area who had bought them a year or 2 earlier.

In the leasing discussions I participate in, one of my favorite sayings is "knowledge is power". The more you know about the numbers surrounding your potential deal, the less the dealer can fool you. Trade value, payoff value, lease numbers (MF and residual), invoice and transaction prices - it's all available on the web and if folks spend just a few minutes assembling the information it could save them hundreds or thousands when it comes time to make a deal.

driver100

abacomike said:

The rep from hospice said it is expected that he will pass in the next 24-72 hours in his present condition.  He will be kept comfortable until the time God takes him.

Very hard thing to do but you did the right thing. Your Dad was very fortunate to have you there for all those years.

A personal thought here...I always think one of the best things you can do in life is to make life better for other people....you have certainly done that!

jpp75

You did the right thing Mike, you've given your dad great care and allowed him to stay at home as long as possible.

graphicguy

fezo said:

Sorry but not surprised. My wife is a hospice nurse and called this a couple of days ahead from what you described. You did everything you could and more and should be at peace. I know that grieving doesn't usually work that way but try as best you can.

Mike....so sorry to hear.

As Fezo says, the Hospice folks are wonderful....at least they were when both my parents passed. They truly are a wonderful group that are tremendously compassionate and caring when families and patients both the most.

graphicguy

imid....like purchase prices, trade-in values were based on "voodoo" economics. I know when I first started buying new cars 25 years ago, I really didn't know how to even begin to put a value on my trade. I know the first new car I bought after graduating from college and getting a good job, I marched right over to the NIssan dealer to buy the car I lusted after at the time.....a 280ZX.

I chronichled that purchase many years ago in the old "Sales thread". In brief, I paid over MSRP for the 280ZX (because I trusted a my sales lady, who I had dated in college) because of the infamous ADDITIONAL STICKER. I had no idea what my trade was worth, except what the dealer's used car manager told me it was worth (only to find out a month later that they sold it to an acquaintance for $3,000 more than they gave me for it). This was back in the mid '80s.

Upon finding that out, I promised myself I would not let that happen again. Not nearly the amount of information available today, but in the '80s I would go to my bank and find out loan and trade values, for used and new. Knowing that, I could then get a fair idea of what I should pay and/or accept as a trade value.

But, even today there are some dealers out there who still like to do the "shuck and grind" routine. But, a little research will guard the buyer from most of those types of places. And, given I don't like surprises, like seeing a bunch of dollars for services or products I can't justify paying, I came up with my one number offers. It's the amount I'm willing to write a check for. I still mostly do business with dealers and people I have faith in, trust in. They know how I do a deal, and such a large financial transaction ends up being pretty easy.

Every time I stray from buying cars from companies/dealers/people I don't trust, I get burned. Current Cadillac foibles are a perfect example for why I should take my own advice.

isellhondas

Mike, just want to echo what the others have said here. You have been a wonderful son and you have gone way beyond the call of duty. It's up to God at this point.

Hospice workers are remarkable and they do a job that few of us could do. They are, literally angels.

houdini1

graphicguy said:

imid....like purchase prices, trade-in values were based on "voodoo" economics. I know when I first started buying new cars 25 years ago, I really didn't know how to even begin to put a value on my trade. I know the first new car I bought after graduating from college and getting a good job, I marched right over to the NIssan dealer to buy the car I lusted after at the time.....a 280ZX.

I chronichled that purchase many years ago in the old "Sales thread". In brief, I paid over MSRP for the 280ZX (because I trusted a my sales lady, who I had dated in college) because of the infamous ADDITIONAL STICKER. I had no idea what my trade was worth, except what the dealer's used car manager told me it was worth (only to find out a month later that they sold it to an acquaintance for $3,000 more than they gave me for it). This was back in the mid '80s.

Upon finding that out, I promised myself I would not let that happen again. Not nearly the amount of information available today, but in the '80s I would go to my bank and find out loan and trade values, for used and new. Knowing that, I could then get a fair idea of what I should pay and/or accept as a trade value.

But, even today there are some dealers out there who still like to do the "shuck and grind" routine. But, a little research will guard the buyer from most of those types of places. And, given I don't like surprises, like seeing a bunch of dollars for services or products I can't justify paying, I came up with my one number offers. It's the amount I'm willing to write a check for. I still mostly do business with dealers and people I have faith in, trust in. They know how I do a deal, and such a large financial transaction ends up being pretty easy.

Every time I stray from buying cars from companies/dealers/people I don't trust, I get burned. Current Cadillac foibles are a perfect example for why I should take my own advice.

I still hear buyers being ridiculed for grinding over two or three hundred dollars. I know everything is relative, but money is money. I don't think any car salesman would walk into a grocery store and over pay $300. for a loaf of bread without grinding just a bit...over paying $300. for a car is the same as over paying $300. for a loaf of bread. In either case you just gave away 300 bucks.

driver100

houdini1 said:

graphicguy said:

imid....like purchase prices, trade-in values were based on "voodoo" economics. I know when I first started buying new cars 25 years ago, I really didn't know how to even begin to put a value on my trade. I know the first new car I bought after graduating from college and getting a good job, I marched right over to the NIssan dealer to buy the car I lusted after at the time.....a 280ZX.

I chronichled that purchase many years ago in the old "Sales thread". In brief, I paid over MSRP for the 280ZX (because I trusted a my sales lady, who I had dated in college) because of the infamous ADDITIONAL STICKER. I had no idea what my trade was worth, except what the dealer's used car manager told me it was worth (only to find out a month later that they sold it to an acquaintance for $3,000 more than they gave me for it). This was back in the mid '80s.

Upon finding that out, I promised myself I would not let that happen again. Not nearly the amount of information available today, but in the '80s I would go to my bank and find out loan and trade values, for used and new. Knowing that, I could then get a fair idea of what I should pay and/or accept as a trade value.

But, even today there are some dealers out there who still like to do the "shuck and grind" routine. But, a little research will guard the buyer from most of those types of places. And, given I don't like surprises, like seeing a bunch of dollars for services or products I can't justify paying, I came up with my one number offers. It's the amount I'm willing to write a check for. I still mostly do business with dealers and people I have faith in, trust in. They know how I do a deal, and such a large financial transaction ends up being pretty easy.

Every time I stray from buying cars from companies/dealers/people I don't trust, I get burned. Current Cadillac foibles are a perfect example for why I should take my own advice.

I still hear buyers being ridiculed for grinding over two or three hundred dollars. I know everything is relative, but money is money. I don't think any car salesman would walk into a grocery store and over pay $300. for a loaf of bread without grinding just a bit...over paying $300. for a car is the same as over paying $300. for a loaf of bread. In either case you just gave away 300 bucks.

Percentage wise....a lot worse paying $300 too much for a loaf of bread. but, I do know what you mean.

It is probably the equivalent to paying 30 cents too much for bread, and some people will travel 10 miles to save that 30 cents.

houdini1

Percentage wise.... a lot worse paying $300 too much for a loaf of bread.

Now you're thinking the way that car salesman wants you to think.

stever

If it's "only" $300, let the dealer eat it.

driver100

stever said:

If it's "only" $300, let the dealer eat it.

If the dealer doesn't make a "reasonable" profit from most of his sales, he won't be around to sell you another car.

I don't want to be ripped off, but, I don't mind if the dealer makes a fair profit when he sells me a car. Prices are kept in check because there is competition and the internet. I don't have to leave the dealership thinking..."great, they lost on that deal".

carnaught

Mike, I'm away for a couple of days but caught-up on this board and saw your posts about your dad. Having gone through this I know what you're going through, and wish you the best. Prayers and strength to you during this difficult time.

abacomike

Thanks all for your continued prayers and well-wishes.  It's given me a lot of strength to continue on this path.

They've removed all IV's and antibiotics and are just trying to make him comfortable using Ativan and morphine, as needed.  His kidneys are not functioning very much and his fluid output is very low.  They tried feeding him, but he would not eat.  I pray God takes him quickly.

I started to go to the hospital where the hospice is located and sat in my car in a parking space.  But I could not bring myself to go up and see him.  I said my goodbyes last night - I just couldn't bring my self to see him in a worsened condition.

I am just incapable of saying goodbye again.

suydam

It might not be as bad as you fear. My father passed away in just this way. It was as though he just gradually slipped away. He was very peaceful which made me happy, not agitated as before with all the tubes, etc. at one point he murmured, "I'm glad you are here." That was the last words he said. You could just feel him quietly leaving the planet. It was good. The dementia had robbed him of quality of life. May you be at peace too. It's very hard. We are all with you.

sb55

abacomike said:

Thanks all for your continued prayers and well-wishes.  It's given me a lot of strength to continue on this path.

They've removed all IV's and antibiotics and are just trying to make him comfortable using Ativan and morphine, as needed.  His kidneys are not functioning very much and his fluid output is very low.  They tried feeding him, but he would not eat.  I pray God takes him quickly.

I started to go to the hospital where the hospice is located and sat in my car in a parking space.  But I could not bring myself to go up and see him.  I said my goodbyes last night - I just couldn't bring my self to see him in a worsened condition.

I am just incapable of saying goodbye again.

Mike,
My mom had a "little cough". I went to Florida from Vermont to check on her and she passed away 10 days later in a hospital hospice center. Her "little cough" was lung cancer. The hospice folks were great. I hope that your situation gives you strength and that you can lean on the people that can help you.
Best regards..

verdugo

I can't imagine what you're going through Mike. You're a very good person. Stay strong.

stever

driver100 said:

If the dealer doesn't make a "reasonable" profit from most of his sales, he won't be around to sell you another car.

I always leave money on the table - I buy a new car maybe once a decade. The dealer may do four or five sales a day. Pretty sure they don't lose on any deal. They let me walk, chances are a Costco or a CR or a TrueCar deal will walk in the door next and they'll be paying a $300 "acquisition" fee for the lead.

Like @houdini1, I don't mind a little ridicule.

graphicguy

Of course the dealer has to make money. And, I don't begrudge the sales person making money..But, after being burned once (admittedly, when I was young and none too bright), I am a little gun shy when it comes to dealing with a salesperson, or even a store, I'm unfamiliar with. The ones that know me, know it's a one price deal. They know I've done my homework. If they can do it, they make the deal quickly. If they can't (and that's super rare), they'll say to me,..."GG, can't do your deal because it's too skinny", or something like that. In that instance, I walk, maybe go to another dealer to see what they say, and/or readjust my numbers, come back another day. What bugs me are the charges for etching, wax and shine (don't see much of that stuff any more), doc fees, etc.

At the end of the day, etching is worth nothing to me, and costs the dealer about that same amount. "Permanent wax, scotchgard, etc, costs maybe $20 om total and 30 minutes to apply. Nothing magic about it. Certainly not worth $700-$800. The big one, doc fees, run $250 around these parts. It used to be $50 was the cap, which seemed reasonable to file all the paperwork for me. When they let them raise it to $259, I thought that was excessive. From what I read, some places are charging much more than that. It's not required (as some dealers proclaim). It isn't mandated by anyone, other than the dealer.

So, I roll all my offers into one number, taxes, licenses, title fess, etc, included. How they divvy my offer up is entirely up to the dealer.

nyccarguy

@graphicguy - what's surprising to me is that so many sales people you deal with are still around given the normal turnover rate in the auto sales business.

Doc fees are something I learned about on these boards. I also learned that dealers can markup money factors and acquisition fees for extra profit.

I don't like excessive doc fees either. In NY, they are capped by law at $75. In NJ & CT the dealers can charge whatever they like. Most places is anywhere from $299 - $499. I don't think a lot of CT car shoppers think to "shop around" in NY dealers, they'll stay in CT.

I don't shop that often (I know, HA HA) to say that a dealer knows me or knows how I do business. The dealer I bought my TSX from was on Long Island was the only cash 4 clunkers Acura dealer that had a TSX with the tech pkg & a black interior. I leased my wife's X3 & my 328xi from the same dealer, but both sales people were gone not too long after I took delivery. I bought my Pilot 4 years ago and the manager I dealt with is still there, but he wouldn't know me if I tripped over him. I'd buy a Subaru from the dealer I bought from again.

stickguy

I think that a small # of salespeople do really well, and make it a (lucrative) career. Those are the ones you latch onto like GG. The rest just churn through, either bailing on the business or store hop. my WAG, 10% are pros, the rest flakes. Higher end stores have more serious people though.

bwia

Speaking of the high turnover rate among sales people. A few weeks ago while waiting in the service area, I could not help but notice an entourage of sales trainees being led to the slaughter by a training manager. There were nine of them and they came in all ages, gender, shapes, size and color.

Some of them looked eager and wide eye while others were nonchalant and were just going through the motion. Based upon body language and comportment I would expect no more than three to make the cut. Not meaning to be disrespectful to anyone here, but it would appear that auto sales is a transitional rather than an aspirational job. And if that is the case high turnover is a normal part of the industry.

stickguy

I work with call centers. Same deal. It's a pit stop, not a career, for majority of people. N

driver100

NEW YORK — Fiat Chrysler is calling the owners of 65 Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango SUVs to tell them to stop driving their vehicles.

Fiat Chrysler said Sunday that an error in the assembly process earlier this month could cause a component in those vehicles to break, leaving the driver with “rear-end instability and/or reduced braking power,” according to a press release.

The company wants owners of the cars to stop driving them and arrange an on-site inspection.

Another 7,690 vehicles may also be recalled because they were built during the same eight-day period, but Fiat Chrysler has only identified 65 currently on the road. (The remainder are on dealer lots or in transit to dealers.

****Must be serious if they want you to stop driving your car...and they will come to your car to inspect!

driver100

stickguy said:

I work with call centers. Same deal. It's a pit stop, not a career, for majority of people. N

Or, like realestate salespeople. 10 or 20% can make a living at it...the rest are part-time or second income people. You would think a dealer would really try to hold onto good salespeople. I guess they find a revolving door works for them though.

graphicguy

I think I've become lucky to deal with the same people over the years. My Acura guy came from the hospitality field, (hotel manager for Sheraton). He's been at my Acura store for at least a dozen years, maybe more.

My BMW guy has been with the one of two BMW dealerships locally for probably 15-20 years.

While I've never bought a Mercedes, I know a sales guy there who has been there 20+ years. While not friends, we run peripherally in the same circles. Whenever we run into each other, he asks me when I'm going to buy a Mercedes. I just chuckle. But, I would have no issues at all dealing with him.

I do believe you guys are right. There aren't a lot of people who stick with car sales as a career, Craig, who was with Honda for many years. They guys I mentioned above. I think most of their business is all referrals. And, you can't get referrals unless you're good at what you do, and stick with it for a long period of time.

Funny (actually sad), I was talking to a sales guy who had worked for a high tech firm for many years this past weekend. He was bemoaning that he had lost his job late last year and said he couldn't find any work in sales.

He had approached me through someone else I knew and asked if we were hiring. I told him we weren't but I knew of both an opening in the BMW dealership and an opening at a large burial grounds that a friend is the VP of. Both just required some recent, successful sales experience. Not sure what the successful car salesperson makes, nor what a burial sales person makes. I know people in both that seem to do well, however.

This guy said he would NEVER work in sales in those fields. I thought to myself, "you must not be good as a salesperson and you're not hungry enough if you're turning down sales openings." Sometimes what I think is best left unverbalized.

isellhondas

I was a fairly high level manager for a Fortune 300 company when they made one restructure too many and I made the decision to leave. Looking back I made the right decision for certain.

A manager for one of our competitors told me that he had a great job for me but it wouldn't be available for six months....so.....what to do? The company I was with gave me five months severance pay and I had money in the bank but...still...what to do?

The first month I scoured the local sources, had a few interviews that I wasn't happy with.

One day, the local Honda Store ran a (rare for them) ad looking for a couple of sales people so I applied thinking it might be a fun thing to do until the other job materlized.

I walked in there armed with references, past Performance Reviews etc and I figured they would be all over me.

Well, I figured wrong. I ALMOST didn't get hired. Later I was told that they felt since I had been a Sales Trainer myself that I would be untrainable and that I would think I knew more than they did.

In a sense, they were right but I did get the job.

I proceeded to make more than I had in my high powered job. I was home every night, I had a 15 minute commute. I no longer had to babysit crybaby distributors and field phone calls that went on into the night.

I no longer had to put on meetings, argue with lawyers, wear a coat and tie, sit in crowded airplanes or lonely hotel rooms etc.

Five months passed and my job offer came through. " No interview, we have heard what you can do and the job is yours!" I passed.

13.5 years later I left.

Now, this store is exceptional. Family owned. Same owner since it opened in 1980. Same GM, same GSM, same USM as when I was hired. Top notch operation that treats employees and customers with nothing but respect. Top salespeople make six figures plus benefits and 401K.

Over the years, they did hire several "flakes". They didn't last long.

I got lucky. I wouldn't have made it anywhere else.

dino001

graphicguy said:

From what I read, some places are charging much more than that. It's not required (as some dealers proclaim). It isn't mandated by anyone, other than the dealer.

So, I roll all my offers into one number, taxes, licenses, title fess, etc, included. How they divvy my offer up is entirely up to the dealer.

Of course. The whole "mandatory" thing is a typical "half-truth". Some states, like (FL) may have a language in their laws that says something like "if you charge X fee one customer for a given product, you need to charge same fee all of them", or "if you charge X fee, you have to post it clearly on the product". This doesn't mean they "have to" charge the fee, it only means that if they want to, they need to satisfy certain conditions, which they of course do. Now that they satisfy those legal conditions, their salespeople will say something suggesting that it's the "law" to charge the fee. They will also have some fine print disclaimers showing that the fee is part of the profit, but in spoken conversations they will do almost everything in their power to make you believe it's something else (the most ethical ones will admit it quickly, after a question or two, the weasels will talk fast and loose, so you never really understand what it is).

Tampa is one of the worst places in the whole country when it comes to those bogus fees, with Japanese and Korean brand dealers leading the charge. Typical is $500-700, but I have already seen $900+. I think there is some place in South Florida (Miami area), where they already crossed the thousand threshold. It's truly ridiculous. Soon enough we will have ads for a $1 car with $20,000 fee.

I'm a free market libertarian, but this is one of those cases truly testing my political convictions. I often catch myself into thinking the government should do something about it. It's really not people like us here, we know the convention and "magic words" like "out the door price", but it is those less informed weaker market participants, like a busy mother of three, who wants to just get a car at decent price and not get cheated. Considering all other issues that are legal and unavoidable (upsells, financing markups, etc., which ultimately are buyer's responsibility), a cap on those outrageous "money for nothing" fees could make price comparisons more transparent. At this point local friendly dealers do almost everything to obscure their true pricing from their customers. It's essentially their business model - make people believe they're paying less than they really are.

stever

The day after I got my Quest in late '98, the straight-shooting sales guy left for the Jeep dealer across town. Occasionally I still see his name at that dealer when I read dealer reviews, and he's a manager now.

OT @dino001 -- when I read sig files, there often funny. Yours, well, its a real hoot. I here you.