Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

tjc78

If they wired it right, the white will be your neutral (negative wire).

Both the red and black are positive wires. Most new installations of a fan will include one hot that always has power and a second that is controlled by a switch.

I’m thinking that you were too close with your tester. At any rate check it again separating the wires a good bit.

If you really want to check pull the cover plate to your switch and see (or send me a pic) what color wire is on the switch. If you see one red and one black, the red wire in the ceiling is controlled by the switch. If two black then it’s the black. Just cap off the one you aren’t using. When connecting the fan you absolutely need a neutral.

tjc78

A second thought.. I guess they could have made both wires controlled by the switch like you suggest, but why run 3 wire up there? Seems like a waste. It certainly could be fixed in the switch box, but in case your case not worth the effort.

So in other words… use either the black OR red along with the white. Cap off the other wire you aren’t using.

If the fan you are installing has capability for a light kit that wire will be identified on the fan. Just cap that off as well.

jmonroe1

stickguy said:

My ceiling box. Never saw one like this before. Seems rock solid so not worried about hooking a fan to it.

I did check the wires conveniently included and as I thought, our phantom light switch controls power to them. Not sure what white wire is though.

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Let me try to explain this. It’s going to be lengthy:

First off I seriously doubt you have 220 volts at the ceiling box. I’m going to assume you have two wall switches, one intended for the fan and the other for the light but you’ll have to confirm that. The white wire is the neutral wire (often called the common wire) and it MUST be connected to the white wire of the device whether it be a light or a fan or a combo unit. If it’s a combo unit there will be only one white wire and this single white wire is the neutral for both the fan and the light of the combo unit, ergo the reason it’s called the common wire.

Now for the red and white wires. Like I said I’m assuming you have 2 switches, one switch has the red wire connected to it and the other switch has the black wire connected to it. This gives you independent control for the light or the fan. Therefore, when one of the switches is turned to the on position you will have voltage on the black wire and when the other switch is thrown you will have voltage on the red wire. I think I heard you mention that you are reading voltage on both the black and the red wires. You either have both switches turned to the on position or because your using one of those non-contact testers, where you only have to touch the insulation, because there is a 3 conductor cable in the ceiling box the close proximity of the wires to each other in the cable is enough to get a voltage reading on both wires at their ends (depending on the sensitivity of your non-contact tester). This why I don’t always trust them. It’s always best to use a tester (standard tester) where you have to make contact with the uninsulated wire. I can see where the black and read wires are touching each other where they are pulled out of the box. This for sure is enough to get a voltage reading when using a non-contact tester. It’s possible that if you separate the wires you won’t get a reading but I’m guessing you will because it’s a 3 conductor cable and you don’t know if the black and red wires are touching each other at the other end (in the box where they come from).

So, after all of that yapping you should use a standard tester. Of course you have to be careful because you are working on a live circuit, so wear gloves. Turn on one of the switches and touch one of the standard tester’s wires to, let’s say, the black wire and the other wire from the tester to the white wire. If you now read voltage turn that switch off and note which switch is connected to the black wire. If you don’t get a reading on the black wire, then by process of elimination, turn the other switch on and test the same way.

One last thing, when you find a hot wire (black or red), take the tester wire off of the white wire and touch it to the ground wire (bare copper wire). You MUST get a reading just like you did when it was connected to the white wire. This bare copper wire is the most important wire in the box as far as I’m concerned because it is the safety wire for a person working on or using an electrical circuit. This ground wire is for your protection the circuit breaker is for the protection of the circuit. DON’T EVER FORGET THAT. If somehow you don’t get a voltage reading when connected to the ground wire you have to find where the ground connection was lost and fix it. This will be a LOT of work. I’m going to guess again that you don’t have a ground problem but you should ALWAYS check for a ground when you work in ANY electrical box. The fear of not having a ground is that the circuit will more than likely work but you for sure will not be protected if a hot wire somehow makes contact with a metal box or a piece of house plumbing.

I hope this helped. Let me know what you find.

jmonroe

tjc78

J - he only has one switch that doesn’t do anything. I’m thinking one is constant hot or they have both legs on the switch.

stickguy

One switch. With that off nothing in the box showed power.

Here’s the switch. Might be hard to see but looks like they have the black and red on the same pole (black on the side screw and red pushed into the back connector). Which explains why both are off or on at same time. I can’t tell in the rats nest where the white wire ends up.

I assume if you wanted separate switches would just have to move one wire to a new switch?

So sounds like just need to strip the white wire and connect to white fan wire, red to red, and put some tape around the wire nut on the black to be sure. And connect the ground wire.

stickguy

driver100

I got a Special Offer from my MB dealer on an EV model;

Electric Dream Days Event

With the purchase of a New 2023 Mercedes-Benz EQ Model, you will receive a 1% Rate Reduction.

jmonroe1

stickguy said:

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That pic doesn’t help me. I can’t see enough until the switch is pulled out of the box. However, if you are sure both the black and the red are hot when you turn the switch on, then do this. Use either the black or the red wire to control the fan and connect the white to the white of the fan and wire nut the other hot wire.

I don’t know why you don’t have two switches because with a 3 conductor cable you should have had two switches. Although now that’s its done if you ever wanted a fan and a light controlled separately you could install a “stack switch” but you’ll have to make wiring changes in the box where the single switch is now. Doing this will save having to cut the wall to add an extension to the box to hold another switch. Nobody with a brain would do this when you could wire in a “stack switch”.

It sounds like you’re done now, right?

jmonroe

qbrozen

stickguy said:

tjc78 said:

Here is what I believe you have.

Either the black or red will be constant hot. The other will be controlled by the switch.

Reason for this is the fan would be controlled by the pull chains and the light would be on the switch.

So… grab your volt meter, test them both with the switch off and see what you get. Cap off the constant hot and use the one the switch controls for the fan since you won’t have a light.

you lost me. I just have the normal red/black (pos neg, right?) to attach to the wires on the fan. unless the white wire is there in case I want to install separate power for the light and the fan. otherwise the switch will control power to both of them, and the chains (or remote) would run them.

with the switch off, my "live wire" pen stayed quite. With the switch on, both wires set it off but I might have just been too close to the power wire. In any case, the switch controls all the power which is fine, since we are not putting a light kit on it. Might get fancy and replace the light switch with a fan control (push to turn on, then has a dial for the different speeds).

You need to confirm which is ground or you might wind up hooking up both to positive.

jmonroe1

@qbrozen said:
You need to confirm which is ground or you might wind up hooking up both to positive.

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Not to get too picky but this is a pet peeve of mine.

With AC (alternating current), there is no negative or positive. This positive/negative thing has to be a carry over from DC (direct current) used in cars.

In a simple 110/120 volt AC circuit (VAC) like @stickguy has, the white wire is ALWAYS the neutral (common wire) and should not be called negative. The black and red wires are the hot wires and should not be called positive.

Again, in @stickguy’s case, the switch should not have been wired like it was and if this were my house I’d change the wiring in the switch box to avoid the mess that was made (hard to believe a real electrician would do this but maybe the previous owner did it) in any case, we all know @stickguy ain't messing around with the wires in the switch box.

The good thing is that the wiring, as he described it, does not pose a safety problem but it sure as hell caused confusion. Once he chooses the red or the black wire to control the fan along with the white wire that MUST be used to get the fan to work, all he has to do is cap the unused hot wire with a wire nut and he’s done. Easy peasy…sorta.

jmonroe

tjc78

@stickguy
If you still lived 15 mins away I’d just come over and do it for you!

stickguy

tjc78 said:

@stickguy

If you still lived 15 mins away I’d just come over and do it for you!

I would take you up on it. Might have to hustle my BIL to come over and help. He is pretty handy.

qbrozen

jmonroe1 said:

Not to get too picky but this is a pet peeve of mine.

You need more drama in your life.

My voltmeter has a - on one side and a + on the other, so I will continue to say negative and positive, thank you very much.

If you want to get into more depth as far as parts of speech... the "hot" side is, in fact, positive for voltage (and, yes, I know it actually alternates, but it still involves being positive), while the other is negative for voltage (when not touching a positive, of course).

Michaell

Gawd, am I glad my thumb works…

ronsteve

qbrozen said:

That is wiring for 220. Either the white is hot, along with the red, or they used the wrong wire and just didn't hook the white up (which is wrong because, if leaving one dead, it should be the red since the correct 3-wire wouldn't have had red).

220, 221, whatever it takes.

stickguy

I have replaced quite a few light switches (usually replacing with a dimmer) and a ton of outlets. And a bunch of light fixtures (including replacing some with fans). Normally no drama. Just swap wires old to new, and follow instructions on the new fixture.

but you guys have me paranoid about this to the extent I may pay to farm it out! For the whole 10 minutes it will take a pro. 5 of which is setting up the ladder.

jmonroe1

@qbrozen said:
You need more drama in your life.

My voltmeter has a - on one side and a + on the other, so I will continue to say negative and positive, thank you very much.

If you want to get into more depth as far as parts of speech... the "hot" side is, in fact, positive for voltage (and, yes, I know it actually alternates, but it still involves being positive), while the other is negative for voltage (when not touching a positive, of course).

————————————————-
The positive and negative on your meter only applies to DC circuits. There is absolutely no positive or negative in a AC circuit, honest. Read your meter manual. But if you want to call wires in an AC circuit positive and negative go for it but if you’re ever talking to anyone who knows anything about AC circuits and you get a funny look, now you’ll know why.

jmonroe

jmonroe1

@stickguy said:
I have replaced quite a few light switches (usually replacing with a dimmer) and a ton of outlets. And a bunch of light fixtures (including replacing some with fans). Normally no drama. Just swap wires old to new, and follow instructions on the new fixture.

but you guys have me paranoid about this to the extent I may pay to farm it out! For the whole 10 minutes it will take a pro. 5 of which is setting up the ladder.

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Scaredy cat.

When you’re not sure what you’re doing it’s always best to call in a pro. Hopefully, it’s a real pro and not a wannabe. They’re out there believe me.

jmonroe

ab348

stickguy said:

I have replaced quite a few light switches (usually replacing with a dimmer) and a ton of outlets. And a bunch of light fixtures (including replacing some with fans). Normally no drama. Just swap wires old to new, and follow instructions on the new fixture.

All other things aside, you had mentioned that the switch you were using was one of a couple that didn't seem to control anything. Is the other one of those by chance in the same room? That would explain the use of 3-conductor 14/3 wire with the red traveler there if so. You could control the fan from both switches, such luxury!

stickguy

Nope. Other switch I think is for a fireplace blower which our gas fireplace does not have.

qbrozen

@jmonroe1 said:

>

There is absolutely no positive or negative in a AC circuit, honest.

But there is. I won’t argue about it longer. But you are giving those simple words more weight than they deserve. The input on my brake pedal can also be positive or negative, and it has absolutely nothing to do with electricity.

oldfarmer50

tjc78 said:

A second thought.. I guess they could have made both wires controlled by the switch like you suggest, but why run 3 wire up there? Seems like a waste. It certainly could be fixed in the switch box, but in case your case not worth the effort.

So in other words… use either the black OR red along with the white. Cap off the other wire you aren’t using.

If the fan you are installing has capability for a light kit that wire will be identified on the fan. Just cap that off as well.

While I’m able to do a simple socket or plug I don’t fool around with most electrical work. That doesn’t mean the pros know everything. Once I called in a so-calked professional to put in a ceiling fan and after he was done it wouldn’t work. He couldn’t figure it out and left with a promise to return.

While waiting I took a look at the system and wondered if it had anything to do with the thermostat controller. I turned the dial a bit and the fan started to work.

How come a pro didn’t think of that?

tjc78

@ab348 said:
All other things aside, you had mentioned that the switch you were using was one of a couple that didn't seem to control anything. Is the other one of those by chance in the same room? That would explain the use of 3-conductor 14/3 wire with the red traveler there if so. You could control the fan from both switches, such luxury!

Three way wiring wouldn’t make it up to the light/fan box. It would go in between the two switches. By code today the power feeds have to go through the switch. Years ago they could put the power feed in the light and just run a “switch leg” down the switch. This used to cause confusion because in this case the white wire would be a hot traveling back up to the light.

tjc78

Actually… there is a legal way to run a switch leg, but I’m sure I’ve made everyone bored enough and I’m not going into it

tjc78

@ronsteve said:
220, 221, whatever it takes.

You win the internet today. Perfect insertion of that joke

ab348

tjc78 said:

@ab348 said:

All other things aside, you had mentioned that the switch you were using was one of a couple that didn't seem to control anything. Is the other one of those by chance in the same room? That would explain the use of 3-conductor 14/3 wire with the red traveler there if so. You could control the fan from both switches, such luxury!

Three way wiring wouldn’t make it up to the light/fan box. It would go in between the two switches. By code today the power feeds have to go through the switch. Years ago they could put the power feed in the light and just run a “switch leg” down the switch. This used to cause confusion because in this case the white wire would be a hot traveling back up to the light.

That has nothing to do with the point I was making. If the other switch was also there, odds are that it was part of a 3-way setup for something in that room, with the box on the ceiling being the most likely suspect for that.

ab348

qbrozen said:

But there is. I won’t argue about it longer. But you are giving those simple words more weight than they deserve. The input on my brake pedal can also be positive or negative, and it has absolutely nothing to do with electricity.

stickguy

I think I will go to Walmart and buy a box fan and stick it in the window instead.

jmonroe1

@qbrozen said:

@jmonroe1 said:

>

There is absolutely no positive or negative in a AC circuit, honest.

But there is. I won’t argue about it longer. But you are giving those simple words more weight than they deserve. The input on my brake pedal can also be positive or negative, and it has absolutely nothing to do with electricity.

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Let me try to explain it like this:

Using your digital meter with the red test lead connected to its proper position and the black test lead connected to its proper position, get a 9 Volt battery. Select the proper range so the meter can read 9 VDC (volts DC). Put the red test lead on the positive terminal of the battery and the black test lead on the negative terminal of the battery. The display will show 9.00 VDC (or their abouts). Note that there is no + or - displayed. With no + or - displayed this is an indication that the meter is connected properly to the battery and you know the red lead is connected to the positive terminal of the battery and black lead is connected to the negative terminal of the battery. Now reverse the meter leads on the battery. The display will now show — 9.00 VDV. The minus sign is your indication that the meter leads are not connected properly to the batteries terminals.

After doing this test, set the meter to read VAC (select the proper range for reading 110/120 volts AC). Connect the red lead to the hot wire (usually black) and the black lead to the neutral wire (always white). The display will show 115 VAC (or there abouts). Note that there in no + or - sign. Now reverse the leads and the display will show 115 VAC. Note that the display does not show a — sign. This is because there is no such thing as positive and negative with AC circuits. If there was, the meter would let you know that.

Referring to positive and negative on AC circuits is not the correct terminology to use regardless of voltage. Using hot and neutral is the most correct terminology to use on 110/120 VAC circuits.

Something tells me you’re not going to agree with me about this but that’s life. I tried.

jmonroe

jmonroe1

@stickguy said:
I think I will go to Walmart and buy a box fan and stick it in the window instead.

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Good idea.

jmonroe

houdini1

driver100 said:

I took the E400 in for yearly servicing, just an oil change and check the fluid levels this time. Also new wipers, after 6 years....it is probably time.
I sat in about 10 different cars in the showroom, C Class, S, SUVs, EVs, and every interior was monochrome black. Really, I'd rather have my car than have a black interior, it does nothing to make the car look good inside. The red stitching on some helps...but, not enough.

I recently did the same thing at my Lexus dealer. A 2022 used LX 600 Sport (10,000 miles) was on the showroom floor. I asked how much...$130,000. I nearly fainted.

jmonroe1

Hey @stickguy, my son finally sent the link for that under body car wash thingy. Let us know how you like it. I'm still waiting for one of my grandsons to do their grandmother's car.

https://a.co/d/4O0jOXn

jmonroe

jmonroe1

houdini1 said:

driver100 said:

I took the E400 in for yearly servicing, just an oil change and check the fluid levels this time. Also new wipers, after 6 years....it is probably time.
I sat in about 10 different cars in the showroom, C Class, S, SUVs, EVs, and every interior was monochrome black. Really, I'd rather have my car than have a black interior, it does nothing to make the car look good inside. The red stitching on some helps...but, not enough.

I recently did the same thing at my Lexus dealer. A 2022 used LX 600 Sport (10,000 miles) was on the showroom floor. I asked how much...$130,000. I nearly fainted.

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It must have had a LOT of red stitching.

jmonroe

driver100

Are we done with the white wire?

I must have lost about an hour of my life and I am no further ahead!

imidazol97

The next topic for "discussion" should be the neutral bar in the breaker
box and the ground bar, and why they both appear to be connected to
the same copper ground strap that goes to the copper plumbing for
the house. What's the difference between the infamous "white wire"
and the bare ground wire.

I believe I'm remembering that correctly from when I ran new
breakers and circuits when we remodeled the kitchen.

jmonroe1

driver100 said:

Are we done with the white wire?

I must have lost about an hour of my life and I am no further ahead!

————————————————
Maybe and maybe not.

jmonroe

stickguy

jmonroe1 said:

Hey @stickguy, my son finally sent the link for that under body car wash thingy. Let us know how you like it. I'm still waiting for one of my grandsons to do their grandmother's car.

https://a.co/d/4O0jOXn

jmonroe

thanks. looks pretty cool and not very expensive. Not sure how much PSI my new pressure washer has, but I think in the 2000s someplace. So enough.

the bigger issue is being able to use it during our endless winters!

oldfarmer50

jmonroe1 said:

Hey @stickguy, my son finally sent the link for that under body car wash thingy. Let us know how you like it. I'm still waiting for one of my grandsons to do their grandmother's car.

https://a.co/d/4O0jOXn

jmonroe

Don’t you need a compressor to make those things work? I believe there are other similar products that hook up to your garden hose but of course you don’t get that high PSI.

stickguy

that requires a pressure washer to attach it to.

explorerx4

Seems like it's easier to go to the car wash to do that.

jmonroe1

explorerx4 said:

Seems like it's easier to go to the car wash to do that.

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And spray the salt off with recycled salt water.

jmonroe

explorerx4

@jmonroe1,
I guess you need me to post a picture of the underneath of my Explorer.
Plus doesn't all that alleged junk from under you vehicle end up on the driveway?

tjc78

@driver100 said:
Are we done with the white wire?

I must have lost about an hour of my life and I am no further ahead!

Seriously? You have single-handedly derailed this thread for days !!

jmonroe1

imidazol97 said:

The next topic for "discussion" should be the neutral bar in the breaker
box and the ground bar, and why they both appear to be connected to
the same copper ground strap that goes to the copper plumbing for
the house. What's the difference between the infamous "white wire"
and the bare ground wire.

I believe I'm remembering that correctly from when I ran new
breakers and circuits when we remodeled the kitchen.

————————————————
I know the answer but do you really want to know?

jmonroe

jmonroe1

explorerx4 said:

@jmonroe1,
I guess you need me to post a picture of the underneath of my Explorer.
Plus doesn't all that alleged junk from under you vehicle end up on the driveway?

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Spraying off the under carriage at a car wash, even with recycled salt water, is better than nothing but like I said before that can’t be as good as fresh water from your homes water supply.

As for the driveway crud, I doubt there is more than a shovel or two to pick up from the driveway and most of us have lots where we can hide that. If not, bag it and curb it.

jmonroe

jmonroe1

tjc78 said:

@driver100 said:

Are we done with the white wire?

I must have lost about an hour of my life and I am no further ahead!

Seriously? You have single-handedly derailed this thread for days !!

————————————————
How soon some folks forget.

jmonroe

explorerx4

@jmonroe1,
You are assuming your water is clean. People in Flint, for example, would disagree.
I live near one of the Great Lakes, Lake Erie. The carwashes don't mind using a lot of water.

jmonroe1

explorerx4 said:

@jmonroe1,
You are assuming your water is clean. People in Flint, for example, would disagree.
I live near one of the Great Lakes, Lake Erie. The carwashes don't mind using a lot of water.

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I know my water is clean and has exceeded the cleanliness standards set by the US and PA water standards for many years now. We get a report each year showing the contamination levels.

FWIW, I’ve read several times, although not lately, that almost all bottled water wouldn’t pass the standards imposed on municipal water authorities but that doesn’t stop folks from buying bottled water. I don’t know why there is a double standard but there is. I’m sure lobbying helps the bottled water companies just like lobbying helps all other industries that have lobbies.

As for the water found in Flint MI, I don’t think lead would hurt a cars under carriage. In fact, if they could find a way for lead to stick to a cars under carriage, that would be a good thing since lead doesn’t rust. I’ll live with the added weight for better rust protection.

I’d be willing to bet that if that could be done @oldfarmer50 would by all of Flint Michigan’s water to get rust free under carriages on his cars.

jmonroe

explorerx4

I'm sure the people in Flint were told their water was ok, too.
That little washer thing seems like it is more work than it is worth.

qbrozen

stickguy said:

I think I will go to Walmart and buy a box fan and stick it in the window instead.

that's fancy. try this.