Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

driver100

jmonroe1 said:

imidazol97 said:

The next topic for "discussion" should be the neutral bar in the breaker
box and the ground bar, and why they both appear to be connected to
the same copper ground strap that goes to the copper plumbing for
the house. What's the difference between the infamous "white wire"
and the bare ground wire.

I believe I'm remembering that correctly from when I ran new
breakers and circuits when we remodeled the kitchen.

————————————————
I know the answer but do you really want to know?

jmonroe

qbrozen

driver100 said:

I must have lost about an hour of my life and I am no further ahead!

Only cost me about 10 mins. Just sayin.

driver100

So you buy one of these, hook it up to the power washer, use too much pressure, blow the wiring off the connections, put a hole in your muffler, break some plastic parts like your windshild washer fluid container......

stickguy

yeah, no.

jmonroe1

explorerx4 said:

I'm sure the people in Flint were told their water was ok, too.
That little washer thing seems like it is more work than it is worth.

————————————————
I have an idea for you…go to the car wash.

jmonroe

venture

qbrozen said:

stickguy said:

I think I will go to Walmart and buy a box fan and stick it in the window instead.

that's fancy. try this.

Here's the one I have in my office at home:

explorerx4

We could eliminate electricity altogether.

stickguy

New plan. Sweat.

ab348

The last couple of days here were hilarious. Who didn't see something like this coming?

Stick, did you actually buy the ceiling fan yet?

tjc78

@stickguy said:
New plan. Sweat.

You don’t even like AC. You’ll be fine

stickguy

ab348 said:

The last couple of days here were hilarious. Who didn't see something like this coming?

Stick, did you actually buy the ceiling fan yet?

no, this all started because I wanted to make sure I had the box and wires already in place to put it up before I did buy one.

stickguy

tjc78 said:

@stickguy said:

New plan. Sweat.

You don’t even like AC. You’ll be fine

good point. my wife has other ideas.

actually the fan is helpful to avoid turning the AC on.

qbrozen

Ceiling fans are wonderful. We always put them in every room possible.

oldfarmer50

jmonroe1 said:

explorerx4 said:

@jmonroe1,
You are assuming your water is clean. People in Flint, for example, would disagree.
I live near one of the Great Lakes, Lake Erie. The carwashes don't mind using a lot of water.

————————————————

I’d be willing to bet that if that could be done @oldfarmer50 would by all of Flint Michigan’s water to get rust free under carriages on his cars.

jmonroe

Darn right I would.

There was a local car wash a few years ago that had a big sign out front that said: ACID RAIN DESTROYS CARS! WASH IT OFF NOW!

oldfarmer50

explorerx4 said:

We could eliminate electricity altogether.

Once the grid collapses from all the EVs charging at once that will be your only option.

kyfdx

Oh, brother...

ab348

qbrozen said:

Ceiling fans are wonderful. We always put them in every room possible.

The 220v ones are especially good. 😉

carnaught

driver100 said:

Are we done with the white wire?

I must have lost about an hour of my life and I am no further ahead!

Let’s shift the subject to rear cameras in cars.

laurasdada

carnaught said:

driver100 said:

Are we done with the white wire?

I must have lost about an hour of my life and I am no further ahead!

Let’s shift the subject to rear cameras in cars.

Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you...

Michaell

“What’s behind you is not important”

kyfdx

Michaell said:

“What’s behind you is not important”

Gumball Rally

qbrozen

ab348 said:

qbrozen said:

Ceiling fans are wonderful. We always put them in every room possible.

The 220v ones are especially good. 😉

only 330 for me. I like it to sound as if rescue choppers are in the area.

driver100

carnaught said:

driver100 said:

Are we done with the white wire?

I must have lost about an hour of my life and I am no further ahead!

Let’s shift the subject to rear cameras in cars.

Yeh, now there's a topic I could sink my teeth into!

driver100

Michaell said:

“What’s behind you is not important”

Unless it has flashing lights!

Michaell

kyfdx said:

Michaell said:

“What’s behind you is not important”

Gumball Rally

The late, great Raul Julia....

tjc78

I’d Go for one of these personally.

https://bigassfans.com/industrial/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=us_2023_b2b_branded_search_sem_b2b&utm_content=direct&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr5Hw14H9_gIVYzqtBh3glwqfEAAYASAAEgLTPfD_BwE

kyfdx

tjc78 said:

I’d Go for one of these personally.

https://bigassfans.com/industrial/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=us_2023_b2b_branded_search_sem_b2b&utm_content=direct&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr5Hw14H9_gIVYzqtBh3glwqfEAAYASAAEgLTPfD_BwE

Headquartered in Lexington, KY

imidazol97

jmonroe1 said:

imidazol97 said:

The next topic for "discussion" should be the neutral bar in the breaker
box and the ground bar, and why they both appear to be connected to
the same copper ground strap that goes to the copper plumbing for
the house. What's the difference between the infamous "white wire"
and the bare ground wire.

I believe I'm remembering that correctly from when I ran new
breakers and circuits when we remodeled the kitchen.

————————————————
I know the answer but do you really want to know?

jmonroe

Yes.

oldfarmer50

tjc78 said:

I’d Go for one of these personally.

https://bigassfans.com/industrial/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=us_2023_b2b_branded_search_sem_b2b&utm_content=direct&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr5Hw14H9_gIVYzqtBh3glwqfEAAYASAAEgLTPfD_BwE

I considered something like the sidekick model for the greenhouse once but at well over $1k it wasn’t practical. Instead I got a few attic vent fans instead for 50 bucks apiece.

Hey maybe Stick could hang one of those from his ceiling.

stickguy

sure. I can grab a swamp cooler for the garage too.

carnaught

kyfdx said:

tjc78 said:

I’d Go for one of these personally.

https://bigassfans.com/industrial/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=us_2023_b2b_branded_search_sem_b2b&utm_content=direct&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr5Hw14H9_gIVYzqtBh3glwqfEAAYASAAEgLTPfD_BwE

Headquartered in Lexington, KY

Can you get a deal on these for your post buddies?

stickguy

swung by Farmers stomping grounds this evening (Albany airport) to pick up a Hertz rental. Popular place apparently, because while I was there an agent told a walk up they were sold out and could not rent a car on the spot. Good thing I booked last week.

was expecting a little car (hoping for a Jetta or at least an Elantra). Ended up being given a 2020 Accord, a nice surprise (the wife will appreciate having something comfortable). Turned out to be an electric blue sport model. Man was that easy to find in the parking lot

not a bad drive. Noisy tires, probably because they are overly low profile 20K miles Uniroyals that have never been rotated.

weird features set. push button start, but no comfort access I could find so you need to pull out the fob. And it has ACC but no blindspot. For one day, should not matter much. But been a long time since I spent much time driving a sedan.

leaving early AM for the 4 hour drive to Philly where I will drop it off. doing this so we don't have to take the RDX and have 2 cars to drive back. My wife really did not want to do it solo, and will make it easier to stop along the way.

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

sure. I can grab a swamp cooler for the garage too.

Just imagine how the wife will appreciate one of these:

oldfarmer50

“ swung by Farmers stomping grounds this evening (Albany airport) to pick up a Hertz rental. Popular place apparently, because while I was there an agent told a walk up they were sold out and could not rent a car on the spot. Good thing I booked last week.”

That’s exactly my stomping grounds. I’m in that garage almost every Monday. None of the car rental companies have anything for walk-ins any more. On most days we’re hustling to keep enough cars in there for reservations.

Since you went with Hertz why didn’t you book a Tesla? I see a lot of them over on that side.

We had a sad occurrence Monday that I didn’t hear about until today. A guy who I worked with frequently at the airport was on a trip to Burlington when he collapsed and died. With our geriatric driver’s base that’s always a possibility but that’s the first time one of us checked out at work.

stickguy

that is sad. I assume at least was not driving at the time. Must have made for an awkward ride in the van though.

I sort by cheapest first. Tesla, was not the cheapest. Plus I did not want to deal with stopping to charge (I assume they treat the EVs the same and charge you if it does not come back with the same amount of electrons?) Might have been borderline making it without a stop (about 250 miles maybe?)

stickguy

Not sure how well Hertz is doing financially, but I know they are not spending any money on bug removal. Not sure if they even washed this car (a bunch of bird poop on top, but maybe the garage has pigeons?). But nobody cared about the bug slaughter on the windshield. So I got out the cleaner and rags and took care of it so I could at least see to drive tomorrow.

sda

stickguy said:

Not sure how well Hertz is doing financially, but I know they are not spending any money on bug removal. Not sure if they even washed this car (a bunch of bird poop on top, but maybe the garage has pigeons?). But nobody cared about the bug slaughter on the windshield. So I got out the cleaner and rags and took care of it so I could at least see to drive tomorrow.

I assume you rented the car to retrieve the Maverick? I will be interested in what you think of the Accord after you’ve had some long distance seat time. And
of course your impressions of the Maverick hybrid compared to your previous one.

jmonroe1

imidazol97 said:

The next topic for "discussion" should be the neutral bar in the breaker
box and the ground bar, and why they both appear to be connected to
the same copper ground strap that goes to the copper plumbing for
the house. What's the difference between the infamous "white wire"
and the bare ground wire.

I believe I'm remembering that correctly from when I ran new
breakers and circuits when we remodeled the kitchen.

————————————————
OK @imidazol97, since you said you wanted the answer here it is: (the rest of you guys can scroll now).

That is not an appearance that the white wire and bare ground wire are touching the same ground strap in the main panel. They are absolutely connected to the same point in the main panel which in turn is connected to the main neutral (usually a bare copper or aluminum wire coming into the house from the pole or underground feeder). Without this main neutral connection to the bus bar where all of the individual white wires for the individual branch circuits are connected no 110/120 VAC circuits will work.

The white wire (neutral) carries the same amount of current that the black (hot wire carries). Therefore it is known as a current carrying conductor. This is not the case with the bare copper wire.

As you noted the bare copper wire is connected to the same point electrically as the white wires but under normal circuit operation no current flows through the bare copper wire. The bare copper wire is ALWAYS the ground wire. This is the wire that provides a safe path to ground if the circuit ever has a short circuit and it will trip the breaker if a short ever happens. A short circuit is much different than an overload condition but both will trip the breaker.

Let’s just say, on a 15 amp circuit, as you continue to plug in more and more loads (like lights and appliances) once the 15 amp breaker rating is exceeded (maybe by 10%) it will trip. However, when you have a direct short to ground the breaker trips essentially instantaneously. Like RIGHT NOW not from a slow build up of current like with an overloaded circuit.

BTW, it’s a little known fact that a dead short to ground on a 15 amp 110/120 VAC circuit will draw a good 10,000 amps. This requires the breaker to be capable of handling 10,000 amps without causing destruction of the breaker. This extremely large current flow is known as the breakers “interrupting capacity” and should not be confused with the breakers 15 amp current rating.

I hope this explained your question.

jmonroe

driver100

@jmonroe1 (the rest of you guys can scroll now).

Thanks for the heads up!

stickguy

sda said:

stickguy said:

Not sure how well Hertz is doing financially, but I know they are not spending any money on bug removal. Not sure if they even washed this car (a bunch of bird poop on top, but maybe the garage has pigeons?). But nobody cared about the bug slaughter on the windshield. So I got out the cleaner and rags and took care of it so I could at least see to drive tomorrow.

I assume you rented the car to retrieve the Maverick? I will be interested in what you think of the Accord after you’ve had some long distance seat time. And
of course your impressions of the Maverick hybrid compared to your previous one.

yes. spending a few extra dollars to not have to drive 2 cars back. There is a Hertz office about a mile from the dealer so easy enough to drop it off once the deal is done. That way the wife and I can take a roundabout way home if we feel like it.

I did drive the Accord 20 minutes back home from the airport (we got it today to save time tomorrow). 1st impression, noisier than I expected (tires really). Very big inside. Comfortable seats. seemed to dart around a little on the highway but probably just need to get used to it. But overall it is nice, and so far confirmed what I had decided earlier about them. I would get an EXL instead of a Sport. More nice features, and much smaller wheels with a lot more sidewall on the tires.

I too am interested in what I think about the hybrid. I know I like the maverick, just not sure if the different driving experience is going to change that (up or down).

ab348

jmonroe1 said:

The white wire (neutral) carries the same amount of current that the black (hot wire carries). Therefore it is known as a current carrying conductor. This is not the case with the bare copper wire.

As you noted the bare copper wire is connected to the same point electrically as the white wires but under normal circuit operation no current flows through the bare copper wire.

I don't understand this at all. If they are connected, how does the bare wire not carry current?

kyfdx

Ooooohh.. Can you compare electrical current to plumbing? I never understand that, either.

tjc78

Shorty answer it’s not directly connected to the device. The current takes the path of least resistance.

ab348

Electricity is all voodoo to me.

jmonroe1

ab348 said:

jmonroe1 said:

The white wire (neutral) carries the same amount of current that the black (hot wire carries). Therefore it is known as a current carrying conductor. This is not the case with the bare copper wire.

As you noted the bare copper wire is connected to the same point electrically as the white wires but under normal circuit operation no current flows through the bare copper wire.

I don't understand this at all. If they are connected, how does the bare wire not carry current?

————————————————
Because the bare copper ground wire is not connected to the normal current carrying circuit. Only the black (hot wire) and white (neutral wire) are in the normal current carrying circuit.

If you remember the old style receptacles there were only 2 slots in those receptacles. The black and the white wires were connected to those slots. Today a third connection point has been added to the receptacle (the almost round hole). The 2 slots are connected to the black and white wires just like the old receptacle slots were and again these are the electrical connections that carry current. However, the round hole is connected to the bare copper wire but it is not in the normal current carrying circuit.

If there is ever a fault with an appliance where the hot wire within the appliance touches the metal frame of the appliance, like what could happen with a washing machine, since the round hole point of the receptacle is connected to the bare copper ground wire which in turn is connected to ground at the panel, the short circuit current will trip the breaker. Now, if that ground point didn’t exist at the receptacle the frame
of the washer would be hot but it would be floating (not connected to anything until you touch the frame AND a metal pipe or other grounded point/appliance in the house). That’s when you would get shocked. This is why the bare copper ground wire is so important. It’s your protection from being shocked and like i said before, the breaker will not protect you from this type of situation.

The purpose of the breaker is to only protect the electrical circuit from overloads AND high current connections (like short circuits to ground). The bare copper ground wire is there ONLY to protect you from inadvertent short circuits to ground.

jmonroe

ab348

JM, I know what the 3rd prong is and that it is for a ground path. But the business about neutral and ground being connected at the panel was news to me until yesterday. So I went online and figured it wouldn’t take long to get an answer that would let me understand it. Unfortunately everything I read just confused me further. I am not cut out to be an electrician much less an electrical engineer. Like I said, voodoo to me.

jmonroe1

ab348 said:

JM, I know what the 3rd prong is and that it is for a ground path. But the business about neutral and ground being connected at the panel was news to me until yesterday. So I went online and figured it wouldn’t take long to get an answer that would let me understand it. Unfortunately everything I read just confused me further. I am not cut out to be an electrician much less an electrical engineer. Like I said, voodoo to me.

————————————————
Oh, then maybe you’d feel better if we talked about sub-panels. In a sub-panel the bare ground wire and white neutral wire are not connected together but the ground wire is still connected to ground at the main panel that feeds the sub-panel where the white wire and bare copper ground wire are connected to each other along with the main ground/neutral wire entering the house from the service entrance. That’s where the fun begins.

Don’t ask, believe me, you’ll be convinced that electricity is voodoo if you do.

jmonroe

tjc78

@jmonroe1 said:
————————————————
Oh, then maybe you’d feel better if we talked about sub-panels. In a sub-panel the bare ground wire and white neutral wire are not connected together but the ground wire is still connected to ground at the main panel that feeds the sub-panel where the white wire and bare copper ground wire are connected to each other along with the main ground/neutral wire entering the house from the service entrance. That’s where the fun begins.

Don’t ask, believe me, you’ll be convinced that electricity is voodoo if you do.

jmonroe

I wasn’t going there …. I have to say J, your knowledge is impressive.

Your color choice on cars not so much 😜😜😜

explorerx4

He probably doen't want to drive a Black, Copper, Red or White car.

jmonroe1

tjc78 said:

@jmonroe1 said:

————————————————

Oh, then maybe you’d feel better if we talked about sub-panels. In a sub-panel the bare ground wire and white neutral wire are not connected together but the ground wire is still connected to ground at the main panel that feeds the sub-panel where the white wire and bare copper ground wire are connected to each other along with the main ground/neutral wire entering the house from the service entrance. That’s where the fun begins.

Don’t ask, believe me, you’ll be convinced that electricity is voodoo if you do.

jmonroe

I wasn’t going there …. I have to say J, your knowledge is impressive.

Your color choice on cars not so much 😜😜😜

————————————————
Thanks, sorta.

I’ll chalk that up to the looong list of left handed complements I’ve received in my lifetime.

jmonroe