Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

imidazol97

As far as posting for the sake of posting and pontificating, I really don't know each poster's reason or rationale for choosing to be an active Edmunds "contributor". What I do know is that we love to talk about cars, manufacturers, current events as they relate to anything automotive, and share our past and current experiences as they relate to SUV's, classic cars, used cars and new cars.

In the poster's opinion, too much negativity has been expressed as it relates to VW and Audi and that negativity has become personally distasteful to him - especially since he takes pride in both his VW and Audi and is tired of reading the posts tearing the parent company - VW - apart.

ab348 and imid have felt the same way when GM was at the forefront for its intentional withholding of info re: the faulty ignition part - GM bashing I believe is what was coined as the negativity against GM. Those posters had similar internal biases as loyal as well as [being] completely satisfied GM owners/customers.

Everyone here is entitled to be heard. The poster/member espoused his being fed up with VW/Audi bashing - and we have heard his side.

This was the beginning of posts by some posters that show they 'get it.' I said earlier that I'm watching for the anti-VW/Audi posts to demand that the company not be allowed to sell in the US because of their repeat, flagrant violations of EPA rules. I suppose that ain't gonna happen. As I suspected, the animosity toward VW/Audi is mitigated by many who like them. Contrast to the case of GM where the mainstream auto media folks in the magazines actually worked to ridicule GM because the public had been conditioned to accept such generalizations without questioning their truth or falsehood. So when GM's ignition switch problems surfaced, it was full criticism ahead. But only a few indicated they felt criticism was too much at the time. Hmmmm.
On the other hand, many tossed in that the government should have just let them disappear in 09 rather than bailing out GM or C, and let the auto industry suffer whatever happened due to their suppliers for all the "good" companies going bankrupt.

The summary of the point is that many people felt and still feel it's okay to criticize GM for their mistakes or weaknesses but it's not okay to criticize some others except in statements that include mitigation factors. Note that no one has been charged criminally in the GM tragedy. Will someone be charged in VW/Audi? It's not their first rodeo with fooling with the US EPA or was it just the European standards they bypassed earlier.

It's not a matter of just being quick to criticize GM's cars or mock them in the case of the auto media, it's that cars that are competent are just ignored as if they don't exist. When people list off suggestions to others as to what cars to look at, they often mention cars they have 'heard' are reliable from the same media, the reliability factors based on historical empirical judgements, rather than suggesting people shop and test drive several cars.

In closing, what's interesting is folks who supported GM against criticism were pointed out as unusual in this forum. But I've watched and there are other brands that folks would make comments to support, as they should, when they felt the comments needed balancing. They weren't pointed out as the exception. Remember, all cars put their wheels on one lug nut at a time. They are an engineer's mistake away from failing transmissions or sludging engines or runaway electronic, along with leaking engine blocks, VCMs that aren't perfectly smooth, and braking systems interfacing with regeneration systems that aren't perfect.

ab348

graphicguy said:

Gonna make a broad, general statement. But, I think Ford has learned to put paint on their vehicles that is equal to the likes of Lexus (who to me is at the pinacle of paint schemes I've observed on cars).

I must be looking at different Fords. Recently I was in traffic and a new Fusion inched up and stopped alongside me. It was black, and it had some amazingly bad orange peel on the rear quarters and trunklid. I presume it was factory paint though obviously I don't know for sure. But it sure jumped out at me.

imidazol97

Enjoyed the early posts yesterday about different folks having different perspectives. I couldn't post
because I had messed up the space bar on my favorite laptop and had to be away for a dermatologist
appointment.

Stopped at a Chick Fil A for lunch. That store will never be robbed because there are often folks in the store and lot with their guns on their hips--it's close to the sheriff's practice range and training center, which seems to have folks coming from far and wide to take classes who then stop at that Chick store.

Had a Honda driver try to take out my Malibu after I picked up the mail at the PO box. She pulled out of a drive right in front of me. The superb brakes allowed me to stop short of her door. The accident avoidance light never went off, but she was not in front of me where the sensors read. I had never heard the ABS system operate on the Malibu; it's completely different than in my previous leSabres. It sounded like frozen slush dragging against the bottom of the car in a deep slush situation in the winter.

She gave me the one finger salute as my right front fender was 2 feet from her driver door! Women drivers, shhhhhhhhsh. Oh, the driveway was to the city police department and offices. I'm going to check the lot today to see if that car is there again. How can someone not see a black Malibu coming at them in the middle of the day. It doesn't even have enough miles for a normal oil change yet!!!

abacomike

@imidazol97:

GM, VW/Audi, Toyota, Daimler-Benz, Honda, Ford, etc., should be treated the same - if they concealed and broke laws, the manufacturers should be punished.  But, not to the point of driving them out of business.  GM produces good products which is proven by their sales figures.  Same is true for Toyota, Honda and VW.

But when companies and those who run them are caught doing something fraudulent or illegal, consequences must be imposed that would deter them from repeating their sins.

As for the media, I don't trust them - whether about cars, politics, etc.  the media is biased as we all should know by now.

imidazol97

abacomike said:

...But when companies and those who run them are caught doing something fraudulent or illegal, consequences must be imposed that would deter them from repeating their sins.

As for the media, I don't trust them - whether about cars, politics, etc.  the media is biased as we all should know by now.

Perfectly said.

js06gv

oldfarmer50 said:

js06gv said:

imidazol97 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

Hey Mike, have fun!
Don't forget to try out an Explorer....maybe you'll have a surprise car buying story to tell us.

Oldfarmer, if you are around....that Mustang looks great in that red color.

Funny thing about that color. It looks different with different lighting. On cloudy days it looks almost maroon. In bright sun it's candy apple red. Looks different if you wear sunglasses. Go figure.

I'm going to go to local Ford store to xx see the color on various models to see if there's difference.

I'm pretty sure it's the same color across the board, at least in name. It may look a little different model to model though. I know the specific color on our Mustang, Deep Impact Blue, is available on several Ford models. I see a lot of Explorers and Escapes in this hue. 

Did you ever post a picture of your Mustang? I've recently seen some new ones around in colors I thought wouldn't be my first choice (like Guard) and they look really good. Perhaps that car has the right "bones" which makes it look good in any color unlike my 4th generation Eclipse which I only thought looked good in red or black.


Guard was one of my favorites, but my wife liked the blue better and it's her ride. I also really liked your red, but it was pretty close to the red on my daughter's Optima and we wanted something a little different.

stever

abacomike said:

As for the media, I don't trust them - whether about cars, politics, etc.  the media is biased as we all should know by now.

We are the media at this point.

(Don't ask me about Volvos, or heaven forbid, a diesel one.... )

dino001

imidazol97 said:

As far as posting for the sake of posting and pontificating, I really don't know each poster's reason or rationale for choosing to be an active Edmunds "contributor". What I do know is that we love to talk about cars, manufacturers, current events as they relate to anything automotive, and share our past and current experiences as they relate to SUV's, classic cars, used cars and new cars.

In the poster's opinion, too much negativity has been expressed as it relates to VW and Audi and that negativity has become personally distasteful to him - especially since he takes pride in both his VW and Audi and is tired of reading the posts tearing the parent company - VW - apart.

ab348 and imid have felt the same way when GM was at the forefront for its intentional withholding of info re: the faulty ignition part - GM bashing I believe is what was coined as the negativity against GM. Those posters had similar internal biases as loyal as well as [being] completely satisfied GM owners/customers.

Everyone here is entitled to be heard. The poster/member espoused his being fed up with VW/Audi bashing - and we have heard his side.

This was the beginning of posts by some posters that show they 'get it.' I said earlier that I'm watching for the anti-VW/Audi posts to demand that the company not be allowed to sell in the US because of their repeat, flagrant violations of EPA rules. I suppose that ain't gonna happen. As I suspected, the animosity toward VW/Audi is mitigated by many who like them. Contrast to the case of GM where the mainstream auto media folks in the magazines actually worked to ridicule GM because the public had been conditioned to accept such generalizations without questioning their truth or falsehood. So when GM's ignition switch problems surfaced, it was full criticism ahead. But only a few indicated they felt criticism was too much at the time. Hmmmm.
On the other hand, many tossed in that the government should have just let them disappear in 09 rather than bailing out GM or C, and let the auto industry suffer whatever happened due to their suppliers for all the "good" companies going bankrupt.

The summary of the point is that many people felt and still feel it's okay to criticize GM for their mistakes or weaknesses but it's not okay to criticize some others except in statements that include mitigation factors. Note that no one has been charged criminally in the GM tragedy. Will someone be charged in VW/Audi? It's not their first rodeo with fooling with the US EPA or was it just the European standards they bypassed earlier.

It's not a matter of just being quick to criticize GM's cars or mock them in the case of the auto media, it's that cars that are competent are just ignored as if they don't exist. When people list off suggestions to others as to what cars to look at, they often mention cars they have 'heard' are reliable from the same media, the reliability factors based on historical empirical judgements, rather than suggesting people shop and test drive several cars.

In closing, what's interesting is folks who supported GM against criticism were pointed out as unusual in this forum. But I've watched and there are other brands that folks would make comments to support, as they should, when they felt the comments needed balancing. They weren't pointed out as the exception. Remember, all cars put their wheels on one lug nut at a time. They are an engineer's mistake away from failing transmissions or sludging engines or runaway electronic, along with leaking engine blocks, VCMs that aren't perfectly smooth, and braking systems interfacing with regeneration systems that aren't perfect.



We must be really reading and writing in different forums, Imid.

abacomike

stever said:

As for the media, I don't trust them - whether about cars, politics, etc.  the media is biased as we all should know by now.

We are the media at this point. (Don't ask me about Volvos, or heaven forbid, a diesel one.... )

Edmunds is a form of media that covers very specific, narrow and pinpointed news - automotive news.  However, I use information and opinions I extract from Edmunds carefully and in conjunction with other sources.  Usually, Edmunds is accurate in its assessments of brands and models.

The media I am referring to (as well as imid is referring to) is the print and broadcast forms like newspapers, TV, Cable, Internet, to name a few.  In other words, the form of media that covers "all" news events, not just automobile news and reviews.

Yes, Edmunds is a form of media but not the kind of media I was referring to.

driver100

I bash all car makers equally when they cheat the system or play with my life. I would never say I will never buy a certain vehicle again because of a scandal, there are many factors to consider.

I do think the GM ignition switch issue is much worse if we are to rate the two. The faulty ignition switches were known about for over a decade, and many lives were lost. GM could have come forward and tried to correct the problem....maybe lives could have been saved.

The VW issue could cause lives to be lost but indirectly. This scandal is one of poorer mileage and less horsepower. It is bad and I don't condone cheating. But lives may have been lost but that may be a stretch, in GMs case lives were lost and GM wouldn't admit to the fault...even though they knew what was wrong.

There are degrees of guilt and one crime is much worse than the other IMHO.

abacomike

Well, we are leaving for South Jacksonville and the inter coastal waterway to go boating.  His boat (30') is at a marina.  He calls them 30 minutes before our expected arrival time.  They uncover his boat and lower it into the water.  They fill the boat with ice, beer, soft drinks (whatever you request).  They clean the onboard bathroom and prepare the boat for use.

When we arrive, we just park the car, check in, and they assist us in undocking.  Then, we're off.  His boat holds 160 gallons of marine fuel and his engines and propellers provide stern steering.  He gets 2 miles per gallon at cruising speed.

Hopefully the weather will continue to cooperate (82 degrees and partly cloudy). My brother said I should bring a sweatshirt as it gets cool and breezy at times.

I'm really looking forward to this - I haven't been boating for many, many years.

[Deleted User]

Changing the subject just a bit, I ran across a decent article on the new Chevy Volt that's worth a read:

hybridcars.com/2016-chevrolet-volt-review-first-drive/

I do believe Chevy has now built the most advanced battery involved power train ever created. The BMW i3 is essentially a copy of the old Volt in that it's primarily battery powered, but there's a motor generator (option for the i3) that generates electricity which is transferred to the battery. The motor is not connected to the wheels, so it's a range extended electric vehicle. Hybrids on the other hand, like the Prius, have a motor indirectly attached to the wheels which can supply surplus torque to generate electricity while powering the wheels. Amazingly the Volt can do all three scenarios. It can drive on battery alone, it can use the motor to generate electricity without engaging the wheels, and it can use the motor to drive the wheels through the transmission while generating electricity for the battery. That's incredible and defies categorization since it's both a hybrid and a range extended electric vehicle.

I've been shopping for a replacement for our 2012 Impreza to purchase in the next year, but I'm split between two vehicle types. Part of me wants to go fun and purchase a manual transmission hatch, and the GTI was at the top of the list until the recent scandal and will no longer be considered. The upcoming Honda SI will likely fill that "fun" option, or a WRX if Subaru pulls their heads out of their backends and builds a hatch version.

The other side of me is ready to go electric. The current batch of affordable electrics are too short on range, and the BMW i3 is plain old ugly. I could wait for the upcoming 200-mile electrics and probably will to see what they offer. However, this new Volt is really appealing. At 53 miles electric range the only time I'd have to dip into the gas reserves would be on my drives to the airport, and even then I'd only use 1/2 gallon round trip, and the occasional road trip which the 200-mile electrics wouldn't be suitable for. So, the Volt is now at the top of the electric list. It'll be March before they hit Colorado, though, so there's some time to see what else comes out.

stever

abacomike said:

Yes, Edmunds is a form of media but not the kind of media I was referring to.

The media I was referring to is us posters. There's a ton of "user generated content" out there now and often you can get the "real" story from all the posts and Tweets. Lots of reporters get their background facts from those same sources now.

In the old days, you had op-eds and letters to the editors, broadsheets and word of mouth if you didn't believe the papers or radio. Word of mouth goes a lot farther these days.

In other news, VW is saying the recall fix will begin (worldwide) in January and will go through all of 2016. The fix will depend on the country - some engines will just get software update, others will require hardware.

thebean

driver100 said:

I bash all car makers equally when they cheat the system or play with my life. I would never say I will never buy a certain vehicle again because of a scandal, there are many factors to consider. I do think the GM ignition switch issue is much worse if we are to rate the two. The faulty ignition switches were known about for over a decade, and many lives were lost. GM could have come forward and tried to correct the problem....maybe lives could have been saved. The VW issue could cause lives to be lost but indirectly. This scandal is one of poorer mileage and less horsepower. It is bad and I don't condone cheating. But lives may have been lost but that may be a stretch, in GMs case lives were lost and GM wouldn't admit to the fault...even though they knew what was wrong. There are degrees of guilt and one crime is much worse than the other IMHO.

Agree.  Even though I'm a Honda fanboy and bought a new one in December, I'm still upset at them about the Tanaka airbag issue.  Real deaths & injuries resulted from Honda's failure to manage this subcontractor closely enough.  

graphicguy

abacomike said:

Well, we are leaving for South Jacksonville and the inter coastal waterway to go boating.  His boat (30') is at a marina.  He calls them 30 minutes before our expected arrival time.  They uncover his boat and lower it into the water.  They fill the boat with ice, beer, soft drinks (whatever you request).  They clean the onboard bathroom and prepare the boat for use.

When we arrive, we just park the car, check in, and they assist us in undocking.  Then, we're off.  His boat holds 160 gallons of marine fuel and his engines and propellers provide stern steering.  He gets 2 miles per gallon at cruising speed.

Hopefully the weather will continue to cooperate (82 degrees and partly cloudy). My brother said I should bring a sweatshirt as it gets cool and breezy at times.

I'm really looking forward to this - I haven't been boating for many, many years.

About a dozen years ago, I had a 46' Blue Water Coastal Cruiser. It really was way too much boat for the Ohio River, but I would sail her just about every weekend to surrounding areas in KY, IN, TN. Had a great time in the boat. Was on it every weekend with family and friends when the weather was nice. It had a head, a shower, a kitchen, a dining room, 2 bedrooms with fold outs in the living room to convert to a 3rd bedroom.

Back in the early '00s, I would fill it up for about $350-$400, which would last a weekend or two, depending on if I kept her close to Cincinnati or decided to take her to TN, for example.

I had her for about 4 years. But, the old adage is true. The happiest days of having a boat is the day you buy her and the day you sell her. Upkeep on a boat that's in the water year round isn't for the weak of wallet.

Still....lots of really good memories I'll never forget.

Have fun, Mike!

tifighter

stever said:

abacomike said:

As for the media, I don't trust them - whether about cars, politics, etc.  the media is biased as we all should know by now.

We are the media at this point.

(Don't ask me about Volvos, or heaven forbid, a diesel one.... )

Someone is talking smack against Volvo? Time to man the trenches...

ab348

dino001 said:

imidazol97 said:

In closing, what's interesting is folks who supported GM against criticism were pointed out as unusual in this forum. But I've watched and there are other brands that folks would make comments to support, as they should, when they felt the comments needed balancing. They weren't pointed out as the exception. Remember, all cars put their wheels on one lug nut at a time. They are an engineer's mistake away from failing transmissions or sludging engines or runaway electronic, along with leaking engine blocks, VCMs that aren't perfectly smooth, and braking systems interfacing with regeneration systems that aren't perfect.

We must be really reading and writing in different forums, Imid.

I thought imid was right on the money.

driver100

thebean said:

driver100 said:

I bash all car makers equally when they cheat the system or play with my life. I would never say I will never buy a certain vehicle again because of a scandal, there are many factors to consider.

I do think the GM ignition switch issue is much worse if we are to rate the two. The faulty ignition switches were known about for over a decade, and many lives were lost. GM could have come forward and tried to correct the problem....maybe lives could have been saved.

The VW issue could cause lives to be lost but indirectly. This scandal is one of poorer mileage and less horsepower. It is bad and I don't condone cheating. But lives may have been lost but that may be a stretch, in GMs case lives were lost and GM wouldn't admit to the fault...even though they knew what was wrong.

There are degrees of guilt and one crime is much worse than the other IMHO.

thebean

Agree.  Even though I'm a Honda fanboy and bought a new one in December, I'm still upset at them about the Tanaka airbag issue.  Real deaths & injuries resulted from Honda's failure to manage this subcontractor closely enough.  

Like I say bean, I bash where it is deserved. But, I don't think Honda can be faulted for the Tanaka airbags. At some point they have to trust that their suppliers will be giving them products built to the correct standards. There would be no way to test as most of the airbags work as intended, only some were at fault....and they claim only in warm climates but that seems to be suspicious.

I don't think Honda was guilty of anything unless they knew the airbags were faulty and covered it up, but I don't recall that being the case. It's a case of the Black Swan Theory*. You can't prepare for something that you didn't ever expect would happen.

*Black Swan Theory was invented because the only Swans people ever saw were always white, then one day someone found a black Swan. Up until then everyone assumed all Swans were white.

driver100

Yeh Mike, have fun. You're doing boating the best way..........going on someone else's boat. Boats are generally a lot of work and expenses, always better to be invited out on a boat.

oldfarmer50

berri said:

Are the sunglasses polarized lenses?

Don't know. Some kid left them on the bus.

oldfarmer50

ab348 said:

graphicguy said:

Gonna make a broad, general statement. But, I think Ford has learned to put paint on their vehicles that is equal to the likes of Lexus (who to me is at the pinacle of paint schemes I've observed on cars).

I must be looking at different Fords. Recently I was in traffic and a new Fusion inched up and stopped alongside me. It was black, and it had some amazingly bad orange peel on the rear quarters and trunklid. I presume it was factory paint though obviously I don't know for sure. But it sure jumped out at me.

Maybe it was that new paint style that looks like the car was dipped in tree sap. A friend at work has a black Ford with that paint as does a woman who owns a black Chrysler 300. I don't have the heart to tell them how bad I think it looks.

imidazol97

tifighter said:

Someone is talking smack against Volvo? Time to man the trenches...

Here we go again. LOL

imidazol97

driver100 said:

I don't think Honda was guilty of anything unless they knew the airbags were faulty and covered it up, but I don't recall that being the case. It's a case of the Black Swan Theory*. You can't prepare for something that you didn't ever expect would happen.

*Black Swan Theory was invented because the only Swans people ever saw were always white, then one day someone found a black Swan. Up until then everyone assumed all Swans were white.

I learn something every day almost--on Edmunds. +1

imidazol97

oldfarmer50 said:

Don't know. Some kid left them on the bus.

I'll bet you find some interesting things left on the bus.

imidazol97

driver100 said:

I do think the GM ignition switch issue is much worse if we are to rate the two. The faulty ignition switches were known about for over a decade, and many lives were lost. GM could have come forward and tried to correct the problem....maybe lives could have been saved.

Yes. Agree. The compounding of errors in judgement by the engineer who changed the friction/resistance specfications on the lobes of the switch along with high ups who knew there was a connection with some accidents and the switch led to sad tragedy. And I doubt it's the first time a car company has had feet in sand on admitting problems involving injuries and safety of humans. But that does NOT make it right. I am surprised that no one, so far, has been charged in some way in criminal court. Note, that GM did step up to pay in the end with an impartial person to judge the claims. But still sad.

driver100 said:

The VW issue could cause lives to be lost but indirectly. This scandal is one of poorer mileage and less horsepower. It is bad and I don't condone cheating. But lives may have been lost but that may be a stretch, in GMs case lives were lost and GM wouldn't admit to the fault...even though they knew what was wrong.

There are degrees of guilt and one crime is much worse than the other IMHO.

We have yet to see how severe the problem becomes for VW. I still think gasoline pollution needs to be double checked in vehicles, including VW/Audis. A dog doesn't change its spots. Also remember Hyundia/Kia's having to pay owners a check regularly based on how many miles they drive for reduction of real mileage from advertised mileage. A friend is always happy to talk about the check he gets as a refund for fuel costs on his Elantra.

With GM and the negative publicity often compounded by print media in the auto world, the loss in value of the automobiles was/is not recoverable by owners. It's all lumped in as JANG by writers in many sources most of which are performance oriented mags (Just Ain't No Good--from Swallen's return slips, a family-owned group of stores in Cincinnati that sold everything from furniture to hardware to cameras to nuts). It appears that reducing pollutants from dirty diesels will involve substantial loss of power. Owners may just have to lump it.

oldfarmer50

imidazol97 said:

Enjoyed the early posts yesterday about different folks having different perspectives. I couldn't post
because I had messed up the space bar on my favorite laptop and had to be away for a dermatologist
appointment.

Stopped at a Chick Fil A for lunch. That store will never be robbed because there are often folks in the store and lot with their guns on their hips--it's close to the sheriff's practice range and training center, which seems to have folks coming from far and wide to take classes who then stop at that Chick store.

Had a Honda driver try to take out my Malibu after I picked up the mail at the PO box. She pulled out of a drive right in front of me. The superb brakes allowed me to stop short of her door. The accident avoidance light never went off, but she was not in front of me where the sensors read. I had never heard the ABS system operate on the Malibu; it's completely different than in my previous leSabres. It sounded like frozen slush dragging against the bottom of the car in a deep slush situation in the winter.

She gave me the one finger salute as my right front fender was 2 feet from her driver door! Women drivers, shhhhhhhhsh. Oh, the driveway was to the city police department and offices. I'm going to check the lot today to see if that car is there again. How can someone not see a black Malibu coming at them in the middle of the day. It doesn't even have enough miles for a normal oil change yet!!!

One figure salute? Even though she pulled in front of you? What's the world coming too? This morning I had a woman tailgating me in a big Lexus SUV. I was in the far right lane doing 5 over but she clung to my bumper while she checked her texts. To be fair, a male driver in a state line painting truck tailgated my bus in the same area a few hours later.

imidazol97

oldfarmer50 said:

One figure salute? Even though she pulled in front of you? What's the world coming too?

Yup. Sitting at a 45-degree angle half pulled out into my lane and my front fender about 2 feet back from her rental car silver door. Of course, I had hit the horn after I had hit the brakes and I did continue tooting a few times. Usually people pull their car back to allow right-of-way. She just gave a salute and continued on in front of me. I'm going to check to see if that cars in the parking lot at various times. Might be city worker.

murphydog

I don't get the one finger salute when the other person is clearly in the wrong. I was in one of those tunnel car washes and that gal ahead of me stopped at the exit to toss a towel into a bin, however just because she stops the conveyor does not. I start honking as the gap is closing, and what does she do? Thats right, tells me I am number 1 by extending a single finger. I had to jam on the brakes, and of course it disrupts the whole conveyor at that point. Sheesh - when you are clearly in the wrong just smile and move along.

berri

It's the old offense is the best defense routine or the driver is just an aggressive jerk.

isellhondas

thebean said:

driver100 said:

I bash all car makers equally when they cheat the system or play with my life. I would never say I will never buy a certain vehicle again because of a scandal, there are many factors to consider.

I do think the GM ignition switch issue is much worse if we are to rate the two. The faulty ignition switches were known about for over a decade, and many lives were lost. GM could have come forward and tried to correct the problem....maybe lives could have been saved.

The VW issue could cause lives to be lost but indirectly. This scandal is one of poorer mileage and less horsepower. It is bad and I don't condone cheating. But lives may have been lost but that may be a stretch, in GMs case lives were lost and GM wouldn't admit to the fault...even though they knew what was wrong.

There are degrees of guilt and one crime is much worse than the other IMHO.

Agree.  Even though I'm a Honda fanboy and bought a new one in December, I'm still upset at them about the Tanaka airbag issue.  Real deaths & injuries resulted from Honda's failure to manage this subcontractor closely enough.  

You should be upset with Takata and not Honda. Takata provides the airbags for many makes and models.

We got a recall letter on our 2003 CRV for the airbag problem. I called and they had me bring it in a couple of days later. They handed me the keys to a rental car that was no charge and four hours later, I picked up the car!

Our 2004 Toyota Avalon is another story. It too is affectd by the recall. Toyota has no idea when they will get airbags in stock! They tell me I will get a letter "sometime". They told me the inventory is going to states first that have high heat and humidy because that is where the majority of problem come from.

So, I continue to drive the car and no, I'm not worried. Most recalls are a tempest in a teapot.

dino001

berri said:

It's the old offense is the best defense routine or the driver is just an aggressive jerk.

Remember, some people simply consider needs of others as completely irrelevant to their conduct.

thebean

isell, I understand what you are saying, but the ultimate responsibility is Honda's.  I spent a part of my work life in a procurement organization of a big company & we spent a lot of time auditing suppliers to be sure they were doing what they were supposed to be doing.  

graphicguy

Probably have to address all of these manufacturer "issues" separate from one another. For example, GM's ignition switch issues are too dissimilar to VW/Audi's futzing the software issue. To me, GM's issues were more related to accounting taking priority over engineering, with their "almost good enough" pricing pressures for parts without thought given to performance of the part.

VW/Audi willfully chose to deceive and made tangible steps to do just that with every thought in mind to deceive.

Diesels were never big sellers here in U.S. passenger cars. The market in North America is minuscule for diesel cars, anyway. Rightfully or wrongfully, the additional cost for diesels never could overcome the MPG ROI. Then there was the loud diesel engine clatter, smell and higher pollutants initially, that persist to this day even though they've been largely overcome, made it an awfully tough sell. Even today, with parity in diesel fuel cost vs regular fuel, very few want to buy diesels because the delta in fuel economy between diesels and regular is small these days, if there's any difference at all.

I think it comes from diesels being associated with big semi trucks and industrial applications. Certainly not the type of power plant you want in your refined passenger only vehicle. We just don't care about diesels.

I do think VW/Audi will survive. They must take aggressive steps to rehabilitate their image. Not sure how they would do that other than to publicly fall on their sword and beg forgiveness. The public loves to chastise, but they also love to forgive (ask Pete Rose). I don't think the products would be the same. And, I'll bet they pull out of the diesel market in North America. I'm also betting their market share shrinks dramatically, worldwide. Thoughts of being the "biggest" car company in the world should be considered folly at this point.

It may take them a decade to overcome this. You may not recognize them, but they will survive.

ab348

Not to rehash the whole ignition switch thing again but the other day I saw something that just astounded me. I was sitting at the pharmacy waiting to pick up a prescription and after a bit this mom arrives with teenage son in tow, for the same reason. They sit down and after a while the kid wants something out of the car. She reaches into her purse and hands him the keys. It consisted of a tennis-ball sized ring with some sort of 3" long ornament, 2 large switchblade key style fobs, a whole bunch of other keys and several passcards of some sort. It was a massive collection of junk. The number of keys alone reminded me of what security guards sometimes carry around. I never saw anything like it for an individual. Must have weighed a few pounds. I was reminded of George Costanza's overstuffed wallet in Seinfeld. Hope she had a stout igntion switch in her vehicle!

roadburner

Another "No Sale" Story...

I was in Lexington for a pretrial conference concerning The Case That Will Not Die, so after I was finished I drove to Nicholasville(twenty minutes away) to look at a 2013 Boss 302- just at the upper limits of my limited budget. My buddy at R&T suggested I should go for one, so I was pretty excited about it. I knew it had an Airaid CF cold air intake, but I checked a couple of Boss 302 forums and it is a very well regarded modification. So anyway, I find the car at the dealer and looking it over I see it has a Roush exhaust. Meh- I wanted the stock exhaust because it has side outlets in addition to the rear outlets-you can pull the baffles from the side outlets if you want a bit more sound. About that time a very young and polite sales guy showed up. I told him the truth- I was extremely interested until I saw the exhaust. The sales guy went on to mention that the PO had also installed an aftermarket driveshaft. That was the final nail in the coffin....
What's funny is the dealer(Chevrolet, for what it's worth) website says the car is still covered by the factory warranty. Yeah, right.

abacomike

Just got back from boating.  The weather was true perfection - mostly sunny and 82 degrees with a slight breeze from the northwest.  Got sunburned - didn't need the sweatshirt.

We traveled north up the intercostal and then veered east on the St. John's River.  There is a US Naval Station at the junction of the river and the Atlantic.  We passed by two huge aircraft carriers and a slew of missile cruisers and destroyers.

The boat is manufactured by Regal - twin propellers and cruises nicely at 29-32 mph (or was it knots?  I forget).  340 hp engine. This huge forklift drops down into the water and you reverse the boat onto the forklift.  The forklift raises the boat out of the water and ever so softly places it on a stationary dry-dock holder/platform.  Then the boat is rinsed off and fresh water is forced into the engine compartment as the engine is idling.  I guess it clears the engine compartment of all seawater.

Then they use the forklift again to raise the boat and the then store it on a shelf indoors.

Yes, boating is very expensive.  The MSRP of his boat was $185,000.  Then there is insurance and then the cost of storage and maintenance.  I'll stick with cars and leave the boating to my brother.

Really enjoyed the day.  Also enjoyed navigating the boat using the built in Garmin marine GPS.  It has a marine radio (2-way), depth meter read out, an awesome 12 audio speaker Sirius/XM system and can carry 15 adults comfortably.  

Yep, I'll leave the boat "driving" to my brother and others and I'll buy and drive cars.  Much cheaper hobby than boating.

tommister2

roadburner said:

Another "No Sale" Story...

I was in Lexington for a pretrial conference concerning The Case That Will Not Die, so after I was finished I drove to Nicholasville(twenty minutes away) to look at a 2013 Boss 302- just at the upper limits of my limited budget. My buddy at R&T suggested I should go for one, so I was pretty excited about it. I knew it had an Airaid CF cold air intake, but I checked a couple of Boss 302 forums and it is a very well regarded modification. So anyway, I find the car at the dealer and looking it over I see it has a Roush exhaust. Meh- I wanted the stock exhaust because it has side outlets in addition to the rear outlets-you can pull the baffles from the side outlets if you want a bit more sound. About that time a very young and polite sales guy showed up. I told him the truth- I was extremely interested until I saw the exhaust. The sales guy went on to mention that the PO had also installed an aftermarket driveshaft. That was the final nail in the coffin....
What's funny is the dealer(Chevrolet, for what it's worth) website says the car is still covered by the factory warranty. Yeah, right.

Bummer. Do people change the driveshaft to reduce weight? I guess you have read about Ford using that as a reason to deny warranty claims?

roadburner

tommister2 said:

Bummer. Do people change the driveshaft to reduce weight? I guess you have read about Ford using that as a reason to deny racing- pluwarranty claims?

The OEM driveshaft is two piece, which apparently isn't durable enough for drag racing. The aftermarket(and Ford Racing) sell one piece replacement driveshafts. That would be a huge red flag if one had a warranty claim.

driver100

I learned my lesson with boats many years ago. I thought it would be fun to have a little laser sailboat. Bought a used one for $800. Then I found I couldn't unload it off the car myself...so I would need someone to go with me all the time. So, I bought a trailer. Then I had to buy a license for the trailer and I had to buy insurance. Then I had to pay for storage.

Then I realized, for the 3 or 4 times a year I wanted to sail it would cost me a lot less and be a lot less trouble if I just rented one when I wanted to go out on one. One of the best lessons in life I ever learned....sometimes it is better to rent than to own.

explorerx4

The GT500 uses a 1 piece drive shaft. The Boss 302 has a 2 piece unit, although there are 2 different ones depending on 10-x-2012 build date. The 2 piece shafts have the same part number.

houdini1

abacomike said:

@imidazol97:

GM, VW/Audi, Toyota, Daimler-Benz, Honda, Ford, etc., should be treated the same - if they concealed and broke laws, the manufacturers should be punished.  But, not to the point of driving them out of business.  GM produces good products which is proven by their sales figures.  Same is true for Toyota, Honda and VW.

But when companies and those who run them are caught doing something fraudulent or illegal, consequences must be imposed that would deter them from repeating their sins.

As for the media, I don't trust them - whether about cars, politics, etc.  the media is biased as we all should know by now.

I honestly don't understand why the media is so dishonest. They have taken a good, honorable, profession and absolutely ruined it. No one should trust the U.S media. They are beneath contempt.

Just to be clear, I am referring to ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CNN, MSNBC. That is not all, but you get the gist.

isellhondas

thebean said:

isell, I understand what you are saying, but the ultimate responsibility is Honda's.  I spent a part of my work life in a procurement organization of a big company & we spent a lot of time auditing suppliers to be sure they were doing what they were supposed to be doing.  

But, how do you "audit" an air bag?

It took them awhile to determine there was even a problem and even so, very few cars were affected. Still, until the air bag deploys there is no way to know. Hence, they ALL get recalled!

I don't know how Tanaka can survive this.

roadburner

houdini1 said:

I honestly don't understand why the media is so dishonest. They have taken a good, honorable, profession and absolutely ruined it. No one should trust the U.S media. They are beneath contempt.

That's true with respect to most of the local media outlets as well. I think that the overriding philosophy in most newsrooms is: "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story."

dino001

I had one contact with the American media and it was a real disaster. As a graduate student, I received an international scholarship and my advisor was hoping to publish a small PR article in a local newspaper. So he called our school of journalism (they cooperated with the local newspaper) and this young lady calls me. We chat for an hour, or so about what that whole scholarship was about, etc. I thought it was interesting, because part of the story was a week-long trip around several cities of the Country and visits on sites of companies that were largest contributors (among others, World Bank, couple of large consultants, manufacturers, state departments of transportation, etc). They invited me into a photo shoot. All of that was taken care by the school of journalism at the university.

Now, the article - SHE COMPLETELY MADE IT UP. From a "graduate student received a prestigious scholarship", it evolved into "distinguished engineer came from Poland to study state bridges". I guess the true story wasn't good enough, so she had to write something that sells better. Unbelievable. I was truly ashamed to show it to anybody (I didn't, I didn't even keep that POS work, although I probably should have - for the posterity), because the stuff she wrote so far from truth that anybody who knew me would think I was a complete Bozo the Clown liar. I had to assure one of other professors that I didn't tell her any of that (he was really ticked off).

You can only imagine my shock. What was really sad, it was probably a journalism student. If they learn already in college to make up stories about real people, how credible do you think they are when they get older and more "cynical"?

suydam

I'm going to interrupt the endless speculation of VeeDub's future by commenting on a test drive today. I checked out the 2016 Mazda 3 i Touring hatchback with the popular equipment package. Like my Encore, that setup gives you almost everything except Nav and leather seats. It has 16" alloys instead of 18" which I actually prefer (not looking forward to the cost of replacing the 18 inchers on the Encore).

I really enjoyed driving it. The hatch felt very light and solid all at the same time. Maneuverability is fantastic -- you can flip a U turn and end up in the closest lane to you going the other way. I had the 2.0 liter and it felt plenty punchy for my style of driving. Also quieter than I remember Mazdas of the past.

The interior is terrific with a couple of exceptions. The tech/infotainment center is the best I've seen so far. I like the joystick/knob in the middle -- avoids the reach to the touch screen like in my Accord. Really easy and intuitive to use. There are some cheap aspects and some really nice ones -- you get leather wrapped steering wheel but the inside door handles seemed pretty low rent, for example.

Overall, I'm just not sure. If we ditched the Accord and got this, we would basically have two small vehicles. Which might be fine. I would really like to try out the new Chevy Volt but I doubt they'll be in the Midwest anytime soon. That might have to wait till we relocate to California. I also love the Buick Verano but the current version gets lousy FE so I'd want to wait for the new one. Between this and the Corolla though, I'd take the Mazda, although the Corolla has more room. I think I want something a little more lux than either of them, however. But not at a high price! There are always tradeoffs!

abacomike

We've all witnessed stories of journalists "creating" news rather than reporting it.  Take the reporter who "covered" the "story" about the Duke University LaCrosse team that "raped" (not allegedly raped) college coeds at some party.  The entire expose was a sham.

And how was the reporter "punished" for not fact-checking her story - or how was the media punished for not checking the reporter's story?  

The media sure showed how slanted and biased it really is - cost the team coach his reputation and his job and what about the young men whose lives were affected beyond repair?

Media outlets just publish retractions - like, "...oops, we unfairly reported..." or "our facts were found to be faulty...", well after the damage was done.  Then there are just biased media who pounce on a pet political bandwagon as soon as the right opportunity arises.

Not unlike how GM, VW, Takata, Toyota, etc., are reported on.

oldfarmer50

js06gv said:

oldfarmer50 said:

js06gv said:

imidazol97 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

Hey Mike, have fun!
Don't forget to try out an Explorer....maybe you'll have a surprise car buying story to tell us.

Oldfarmer, if you are around....that Mustang looks great in that red color.

Funny thing about that color. It looks different with different lighting. On cloudy days it looks almost maroon. In bright sun it's candy apple red. Looks different if you wear sunglasses. Go figure.

I'm going to go to local Ford store to xx see the color on various models to see if there's difference.

I'm pretty sure it's the same color across the board, at least in name. It may look a little different model to model though. I know the specific color on our Mustang, Deep Impact Blue, is available on several Ford models. I see a lot of Explorers and Escapes in this hue. 

Did you ever post a picture of your Mustang? I've recently seen some new ones around in colors I thought wouldn't be my first choice (like Guard) and they look really good. Perhaps that car has the right "bones" which makes it look good in any color unlike my 4th generation Eclipse which I only thought looked good in red or black.


Guard was one of my favorites, but my wife liked the blue better and it's her ride. I also really liked your red, but it was pretty close to the red on my daughter's Optima and we wanted something a little different.





Oh yeah, that car has bones!

oldfarmer50

abacomike said:

Well, we are leaving for South Jacksonville and the inter coastal waterway to go boating.  His boat (30') is at a marina.  He calls them 30 minutes before our expected arrival time.  They uncover his boat and lower it into the water.  They fill the boat with ice, beer, soft drinks (whatever you request).  They clean the onboard bathroom and prepare the boat for use.

When we arrive, we just park the car, check in, and they assist us in undocking.  Then, we're off.  His boat holds 160 gallons of marine fuel and his engines and propellers provide stern steering.  He gets 2 miles per gallon at cruising speed.

Hopefully the weather will continue to cooperate (82 degrees and partly cloudy). My brother said I should bring a sweatshirt as it gets cool and breezy at times.

I'm really looking forward to this - I haven't been boating for many, many years.

Mike are you considering a move up there? Sounds pretty nice. They say north Florida actually has seasons.

oldfarmer50

thebean said:

driver100 said:

I bash all car makers equally when they cheat the system or play with my life. I would never say I will never buy a certain vehicle again because of a scandal, there are many factors to consider.

I do think the GM ignition switch issue is much worse if we are to rate the two. The faulty ignition switches were known about for over a decade, and many lives were lost. GM could have come forward and tried to correct the problem....maybe lives could have been saved.

The VW issue could cause lives to be lost but indirectly. This scandal is one of poorer mileage and less horsepower. It is bad and I don't condone cheating. But lives may have been lost but that may be a stretch, in GMs case lives were lost and GM wouldn't admit to the fault...even though they knew what was wrong.

There are degrees of guilt and one crime is much worse than the other IMHO.

Agree.  Even though I'm a Honda fanboy and bought a new one in December, I'm still upset at them about the Tanaka airbag issue.  Real deaths & injuries resulted from Honda's failure to manage this subcontractor closely enough.  

I'm not a big Honda fan so I have no dog in this hunt but I'm wondering how Tanaka (or Honda) could have factored in a propellant that became more explosive only under certain high humidity conditions. Who would even think to test for something like that? Did Honda know and hide the defect, I forget?

oldfarmer50

imidazol97 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Don't know. Some kid left them on the bus.

I'll bet you find some interesting things left on the bus.

About $5k worth of cell phones a week.