Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

imidazol97

abacomike said:

My brother and I are going up to his Porsche dealer so I can get a first-hand, close-up look at the Cayenne S.  Then, I might just ask him to run over to the Ford Dealer so I can drive one.  I was truly taken back with the looks of the pearl red Explorer I saw on I-95 near the Cape Canaveral area.

That red pearl color Ford has is beautiful. I believe it's the color on Oldfarmer's Mustang convertible. Whenever I see it on a Ford in full sun, I notice it and react.

venture

qbrozen said:

BTW, Jeep Cherokee loaner we have is not a very good vehicle. The ride is just so-so, the transmission is among the worst I've ever experienced, and the storage space is absolutely awful in this size vehicle. My Honda Fit has way more useable space, as did the Ford Escape we had on vacation last year.

I am having a hard time describing the transmission problems. I would say its like something from the 1980s in terms of responsiveness, but I'm pretty sure even my dad's 1980s GM vehicles like his C20 van and K5 Blazer had transmissions that kicked down way quicker than this new Chrysler 9-speed. I had to resort to manually shifting it, but even that requires very careful planning, as its response to shifts must be sent by telegraph. I redlined it once merging on the highway and it was stuck at the rev limiter for a good 5 secs before it decided my upshift request was probably a good idea after all. When on a downhill slope on the highway at 75mph, I upshifted twice from 7 to 9. The readout acknowledged my request, but it wasn't until about another 100 yards down the hill that the car actually clicked off 2 perceptible shifts.

Oh, and even when driven gently, I averaged 25 mpg on the trip home from the dealer, which is right about the same as our T&C. So with 2 fewer cylinders, about 100 fewer ponies, 3 more gears, and probably 1k or more fewer pounds, it is somehow comparable in efficiency. That's sad.

My son and his wife have a Grand Cherokee; actually it's hers, but they both share in the anguish.

She said she will not get another one. It's in the shop a lot. Sad for a close to $50k vehicle. Nice looking though.

driver100

graphicguy said:

abacomike said:

Arrived here at 4:10 PM.

On the interstate, I saw a new Ford Explorer.  That has to be the best looking SUV on the road today.  I love its stance and the rear wrap-around window.  The one I saw was in an opulescent red (like a pearl red color) - gorgeous - not just gorgeous, but rich looking and sophisticated as well.

If I was in the market for an SUV, that Explorer in that color would be it!  

As far as the new VW CEO predicting potential dire consequences? I will agree with most here. For him to say the company may not survive is a very ominous proclimation.

If that's the case, it won't be from the fines, $$$$ paid to purrent customers and dealers in the U.S. It will be those in the rest of the world who come after VW for their pound of flesh. Diesel sales here are miniscule compared to what VW's diesel market share is in the rest of the world.

Actually GG, I think the penalties in the other countries are pretty minor compared to the rest of the world. $37K fine per car max is a pretty big penalty, then there are separate lawsuits from dealers and owners, and maybe even people who died (though someone else has to file those).

We do have to be careful of spin doctors these days too. Companies now find it better to be up front about a problem, rather than try to make excuses. I question motivation. The president of VW may be trying for sympathy, or he may make the problem sound more serious than it is, so VW won't be penalized as much as they could be.

houdini1

abacomike said:

We all have our own reasons for choosing to be members of Edmunds' forums.  One thing we all have in common is that we "love" cars - new, old, classic, etc.  We each have our own attitudes and opinions and we rarely hesitate to post our responses to other's opinions.

As far as posting for the sake of posting and pontificating, I really don't know each poster's reason or rationale for choosing to be an active Edmunds "contributor".  What I do know is that we love to talk about cars, manufacturers, current events as they relate to anything automotive, and share our past and current experiences as they relate to SUV's, classic cars, used cars and new cars.

In the poster's opinion, too much negativity has been expressed as it relates to VW and Audi and that negativity has become personally distasteful to him - especially since he takes pride in both his VW and Audi and is tired of reading the posts tearing the parent company - VW - apart.

ab348 and imid have felt the same way when GM was at the forefront for its intentional withholding of info re: the faulty ignition part - GM bashing I believe is what was coined as the negativity against GM.  Those posters had similar internal biases as loyal as well as completely satisfied GM owners/customers.

Everyone here is entitled to be heard.  The poster/member espoused his being fed up with VW/Audi bashing - and we have heard his side.

Even the Edmunds moderators have read about his opinion and many have posted their own opinions - as have all of us.  

Maybe be we all need to be a bit more sensitive to the fact that there are GM, VW, Audi, Ford, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, Suburu, etc., owners out there who love their cars and the manufacturer that built their cars and are tired of hearing all the negativity.  

I rest my case!  

Why people own and drive a particular car can be quite complicated. We literally love our cars and they are part of our self image. When we perceive a threat to our car (self image) we take it very personally and will defend our car (self image) at all costs, even if our defense is completely irrational.

In many ways, we are what we drive.

graphicguy

driver...you may be right with the VW CEO trying to play the sympathy card. But, the EU (and probably APAC, SA, and other continents where VW sells a lot more vehicles) isn't going to care about how many jobs are lost. Here in the U.S., we're always keenly aware of the affect negative news about business will affect stock holders, employees, etc.

Still, 10 million cars affected (as VW states), it's staggering the amount of money we're talking about with just fines alone, discounting for the moment the typical law suits for diminished value, consumer and dealer restitution, plunging sales of their brands around the world.

I just looked up their market cap. It's somewhere in the neighborhood of $47B. That's going to go down, even before any payouts. What happens if the payouts and fines levied reach $25B (which is entirely possible)?

What happens when Marchionne (fresh from being turned down for a date with GM) comes swooping in to shop in the bargain bin for the likes of Audi, or maybe even Porsche?

Lots of things could happen. Not saying they will, but they could.

tjc78

nyccarguy said:

@tjc78 - good to see you posting again. When did you guys get an Enclave? How do you like it so far? They are really nice vehicles. I was semi seriously looking at them last year when GM had their 20% off thing going ($10K off of a $50K Buick SUV looked like a sweet deal). I found out that the 20% off is the only thing you get with those certain cars, so no leasing and no 0% financing. Every one on the dealer lots in my area were configured for 7 passengers and we like the 8 passenger capability of our Pilot. Ultimately I decided to stick with the Pilot which has about 70K on it right now and will be paid off in May.

My wife and both like it, it's incredibly comfortable and roomy. We like the 7 passenger setup, with the easy access to the third row. The ride is exactly what you would expect for a Buick quiet as you can get and compliant. Ours is pretty loaded with NAV so there is no shortage of amenities. Gas mileage hovers in the 16ish range with a 50/50 highway split and its knocking on 10K miles with no issues.

Having said all that, we both really enjoy a sedan and miss the Lacrosse. That vehicle did everything well for us but was a little too small (especially in the trunk). As you know, with kids and all the gear you carry a sedan limits what you can take with you. I'm sure we will have an SUV of sorts for quite a while.

thebean

abacomike said:

This forum would not be as interesting or as informational or as enjoyable if you ever left, Bean!  I feel the same way about most of our family of posters here and on CCBA (which I don't follow very often - but still interesting).  Each poster brings with him/her a different motivation for posting as well as a host of varying opinions and perspectives.

I always learn something every day here on this forum which enables me to rethink my opinion about something or someone.  I also enjoy the sagas that posters convey, whether it be a car shopping experience, a car buying experience, experiences with lemons and their trials and tribulations, as well as perspectives on life, in general.

Yes, each of us bring an asset, a story, a slant on things in general that make us think deeper about things.  I thank you all for your insights and contributions.

I feel the same way about you.  I enjoy your posts and your life experiences discussed on them.  I wish I was in Florida so we could have coffee occasionally and solve all the world's problems.

stever

graphicguy said:

I know it affected my son's decision. And, he's in that coveted 25 y.o. to 30 y.o. range where car companies try to snag a customer and hold onto them for life, moving them up the ladder of better and more expensive brands.

I've always wondered about that. When I was that age I loved my Toyota. Have yet to buy another one though.

robr2

graphicguy said:

What happens when Marchionne (fresh from being turned down for a date with GM) comes swooping in to shop in the bargain bin for the likes of Audi, or maybe even Porsche?

Sergio isn't looking to shop the bargain bin. He wants a bigger partner that is willing to put Dodge and Chrysler out of their misery and pump money into Alfa and Jeep while letting him run the whole shebang.

As for the incoming Chairman warning managers "that the automaker's diesel-emission scandal poses an existence-threatening crisis for the company" he also said "he believes VW can overcome the crisis" in a German newspaper. Chairmen and CEO''s don't come in with a doom and gloom attitude. They are hired and paid big euros to turn the company around and to show the world that they did it.

IMHO, VW is not going to go away and nobody is going to come in a scoop up Porsche like a bank owned house in Florida. VW will have many years of financial rebuilding to do. More than likely, Audi and Porsche won't be affected since the headlines scream out VW. Further, IMO most Audi and Porsche buyers don't know they are part of VW.

henryn

houdini1 said:

abacomike said:

We all have our own reasons for choosing to be members of Edmunds' forums.  One thing we all have in common is that we "love" cars - new, old, classic, etc.  We each have our own attitudes and opinions and we rarely hesitate to post our responses to other's opinions.

As far as posting for the sake of posting and pontificating, I really don't know each poster's reason or rationale for choosing to be an active Edmunds "contributor".  What I do know is that we love to talk about cars, manufacturers, current events as they relate to anything automotive, and share our past and current experiences as they relate to SUV's, classic cars, used cars and new cars.

In the poster's opinion, too much negativity has been expressed as it relates to VW and Audi and that negativity has become personally distasteful to him - especially since he takes pride in both his VW and Audi and is tired of reading the posts tearing the parent company - VW - apart.

ab348 and imid have felt the same way when GM was at the forefront for its intentional withholding of info re: the faulty ignition part - GM bashing I believe is what was coined as the negativity against GM.  Those posters had similar internal biases as loyal as well as completely satisfied GM owners/customers.

Everyone here is entitled to be heard.  The poster/member espoused his being fed up with VW/Audi bashing - and we have heard his side.

Even the Edmunds moderators have read about his opinion and many have posted their own opinions - as have all of us.  

Maybe be we all need to be a bit more sensitive to the fact that there are GM, VW, Audi, Ford, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, Suburu, etc., owners out there who love their cars and the manufacturer that built their cars and are tired of hearing all the negativity.  

I rest my case!  

Why people own and drive a particular car can be quite complicated. We literally love our cars and they are part of our self image. When we perceive a threat to our car (self image) we take it very personally and will defend our car (self image) at all costs, even if our defense is completely irrational.

In many ways, we are what we drive.

I think I may quit reading over in the diesel forum. "Irrational" has been taken to a whole new level over there!

henryn

tyguy said:

Personally I hope to see them use this as a rallying call to improve and become an even more competitive company. Right now they're liars, their US dealer network is bottom of the barrel, and reliability is atrocious. Hopefully they'll use this opportunity for inner reflection and make truly great cars. More competition is good for us as car enthusiasts.

I agree with what you're saying there. Back in 2008, my then wife purchased a new Passat. I was instrumental in that purchase, if I hadn't insisted, she never would have considered one, never would have taken the test drive. The selling dealer was terrible, absolutely the pits. But we found another dealer who was first class, really an excellent experience every time we went in for service. (West Houston Volkswagen, in case anyone cares.)

Between the two of us, we owned that car for nearly 6 years, and 103k miles. There were several rather expensive repairs during that period, and almost all of them were picked up by the dealer/factory. But I really wouldn't want to own one, again, out of warranty. That car was fun to drive, but it just required too much service (spark plugs every 24k miles? Really?)

My main point here is the dealers, and the lack of consistency. VW dealers range from atrocious to truly great. VW really, really needs to work on that. The dealership experience is a tremendously large part of owning a particular automobile.

henryn

venture said:

qbrozen said:

BTW, Jeep Cherokee loaner we have is not a very good vehicle. The ride is just so-so, the transmission is among the worst I've ever experienced, and the storage space is absolutely awful in this size vehicle. My Honda Fit has way more useable space, as did the Ford Escape we had on vacation last year.

I am having a hard time describing the transmission problems. I would say its like something from the 1980s in terms of responsiveness, but I'm pretty sure even my dad's 1980s GM vehicles like his C20 van and K5 Blazer had transmissions that kicked down way quicker than this new Chrysler 9-speed. I had to resort to manually shifting it, but even that requires very careful planning, as its response to shifts must be sent by telegraph. I redlined it once merging on the highway and it was stuck at the rev limiter for a good 5 secs before it decided my upshift request was probably a good idea after all. When on a downhill slope on the highway at 75mph, I upshifted twice from 7 to 9. The readout acknowledged my request, but it wasn't until about another 100 yards down the hill that the car actually clicked off 2 perceptible shifts.

Oh, and even when driven gently, I averaged 25 mpg on the trip home from the dealer, which is right about the same as our T&C. So with 2 fewer cylinders, about 100 fewer ponies, 3 more gears, and probably 1k or more fewer pounds, it is somehow comparable in efficiency. That's sad.

My son and his wife have a Grand Cherokee; actually it's hers, but they both share in the anguish.

She said she will not get another one. It's in the shop a lot. Sad for a close to $50k vehicle. Nice looking though.

I remember all of the stories in the car press and the general press about the many, many delays in the introduction of the "new Grand Cherokee". Most of the problems seem to have been centered on the programming for the transmission. And it sounds like, reading @qbrozen 's comments, that they STILL haven't got the programming fixed.

When I decided to come out of retirement, in 2010, I was looking for work as a programmer. But there were no jobs here in the US for programmers, that work has all been "offshored". Makes you think, doesn't it?

robr2

FCA has introduced new software for the 9 speed transmission in the Cherokee, 200, and 500X. Per safercar.org, the issues with the transmission have dropped dramatically in 2015 - basically they are non-existent.

As for programmer jobs, maybe you should move to Germany where the work in this case was "off shored" to. ZF Friedrichshafen designed and built the transmission as did the software development.

driver100

robr2 said:

FCA has introduced new software for the 9 speed transmission in the Cherokee, 200, and 500X. Per safercar.org, the issues with the transmission have dropped dramatically in 2015 - basically they are non-existent.

As for programmer jobs, maybe you should move to Germany where the work in this case was "off shored" to. ZF Friedrichshafen designed and built the transmission as did the software development.

See, I learned something here about those Jeep Cherokee transmissions. There is a guy who I play tennis with who bought a 2014 Jeep Cherokee. He has had nothing but problems with his transmission, his Jeep dealer keeps saying it is fixed and then he drives it and it clunks and chooses the wrong gear.

From the comments I am reading it seems this is a real problem and there is or will be a solution, I will let him know.

graphicguy

driver100 said:

robr2 said:

FCA has introduced new software for the 9 speed transmission in the Cherokee, 200, and 500X. Per safercar.org, the issues with the transmission have dropped dramatically in 2015 - basically they are non-existent.

As for programmer jobs, maybe you should move to Germany where the work in this case was "off shored" to. ZF Friedrichshafen designed and built the transmission as did the software development.

See, I learned something here about those Jeep Cherokee transmissions. There is a guy who I play tennis with who bought a 2014 Jeep Cherokee. He has had nothing but problems with his transmission, his Jeep dealer keeps saying it is fixed and then he drives it and it clunks and chooses the wrong gear.

From the comments I am reading it seems this is a real problem and there is or will be a solution, I will let him know.

Sounds like Jeep and Cadillac have a lot in common.

sda

What I find interesting about the VW diesel issue is that I initially thought the override program was only on US spec cars as US emission standards are different than in other countries. I guess they couldn't meet the standards in other countries as well and applied their fix to all. As been said so many times, what a mess. But I think VW will survive and ultimately be better for it.

stickguy

sda said:

What I find interesting about the VW diesel issue is that I initially thought the override program was only on US spec cars as US emission standards are different than in other countries. I guess they couldn't meet the standards in other countries as well and applied their fix to all. As been said so many times, what a mess. But I think VW will survive and ultimately be better for it.

In some ways, this was like a pyramid scheme. A brilliant way to make a lot of money out of nothing. Until you get caught.

oldfarmer50

imidazol97 said:

abacomike said:

My brother and I are going up to his Porsche dealer so I can get a first-hand, close-up look at the Cayenne S.  Then, I might just ask him to run over to the Ford Dealer so I can drive one.  I was truly taken back with the looks of the pearl red Explorer I saw on I-95 near the Cape Canaveral area.

That red pearl color Ford has is beautiful. I believe it's the color on Oldfarmer's Mustang convertible. Whenever I see it on a Ford in full sun, I notice it and react.

The Explorer says Ruby Red. Mustang says Ruby Red Metallic. Same? You decide.

stickguy

Mustang looks more sparkly. But could be the sun angle or the photography.

ab348

driver100 said:

See, I learned something here about those Jeep Cherokee transmissions. There is a guy who I play tennis with who bought a 2014 Jeep Cherokee. He has had nothing but problems with his transmission, his Jeep dealer keeps saying it is fixed and then he drives it and it clunks and chooses the wrong gear.

From the comments I am reading it seems this is a real problem and there is or will be a solution, I will let him know.

Assuming the new and improved software (a) truly fixes it and (b) is compatible with the 2014 transmission. If it is, one wonders why the fix has not been applied to all of these vehicles.

stickguy

That is a sharp looking mustang. I love that color.

dino001

tyguy said:

I was shocked to read the quote from the incoming president that the scandal could end the company. That's a very serious statement to make. Typically a president would be organizing the troops and laying out a plan of attack to get them motivated for the challenges ahead. Maybe it's a German thing.

Definitely. Germans (Austrians and Slavs for that matter, too) in general are very direct in their communications, much more direct than Americans, not to mention British. Their style comes in translation similar to that of military. In this case I think it's prudent to not understate the threats and even overstate them somewhat, so your troops are fully aware of what may be coming. There may be other layers in that, too, like labor relations with very comabtive unions in Germany (they may be willing to offer more concessions if convinced that it is a big deal), goverments (please punish us, but don't put us out of business) and business partners (give us more leeway in this and that). The worst they could do would be to come across as aloof, disconnected, or arrogant.

imidazol97

Interesting Youtube video of a dynanometer test of a diesel from the VW/Audi
folks that is in the group where the testing was faked. Amazing drop off in power
until the car is at full output power then it's almost the same. But big drop in
comparison.

Theaw testers fooled the system into thinking it was on the road by
using a 4-wheel dyno to get the actual normal dirty power output where the
rear wheels were turned by the dyno at the same speed as the fronts were turning.

When the same dyno was in front wheel drive AND the rear wheels weren't turning, the
car showed reduced power--that is when the software program thinks
the car is being tested for pollution and fakes having good results.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhvI2oeBPtY

stickguy

That was pretty cool. Too bad they were not getting emissions results at same time.

And pretty sure owners won't be real happy if they lose that much power, and I suspect a big drop in drive ability too!

imidazol97

stickguy said:

And pretty sure owners won't be real happy if they lose that much power, and I suspect a big drop in drive ability too!

The EPA in the US needs to be demanding in their requirements for fixing these polluters.
When they are putting coal-fired electrical generation plants that have already been cleaned
up substantially so that the greens can try to force expensive solar and wind electricity,
and the same coal goes to China to burn and pollute, then were need to fix the
diesel polluters even though we can't visually see the "rolling coal" effect.

And they need to check for pollution on other vehicles produced by VW/Audi
that are not diesel. I saw a post in another forum that a major company had
"adjusted" the combined mileage for a 2016 model down under the cover that
they had changed the idle to smooth it out. No company gratuitously lowers
that mileage that's going to be on every Mahoney sticker and every advertisement
just to smooth the idle. No one. So I offer that they may have decided to
correct a "miscalculation" they had made in light of VW/Audi's current
public debacle.

thebean

sda said:

What I find interesting about the VW diesel issue is that I initially thought the override program was only on US spec cars as US emission standards are different than in other countries. I guess they couldn't meet the standards in other countries as well and applied their fix to all. As been said so many times, what a mess. But I think VW will survive and ultimately be better for it.

I'm afraid if they do survive (which I think they will do), they will go right back to their old ways.  Huge companies are slow to change their culture, and this is a culture issue to me - the engineers were afraid to tell the leaders that the engine wouldn't pass emissions tests as is.  I hope I'm wrong.  

nyccarguy

@henryn - that dude on the diesel forum is a certified nut job. I stick around there purely for the entertainment value.

dino001

Which forum?

stever

Let's stick to talking about cars please.

@imidazol97, the CR-V EPA numbers getting lowered are interesting. If Honda lowered them because they wanted to fix the vibration at idle that some owners have complained about, then there must have been some "play" in the calculations since only the AWD numbers have gone down. I'm really curious to see how the spin comes down.

Michaell

nyccarguy said:

@henryn - that dude on the diesel forum is a certified nut job. I stick around there purely for the entertainment value.

He's passionate ... just like many of us on this discussion.

robr2

ab348 said:

Assuming the new and improved software (a) truly fixes it and (b) is compatible with the 2014 transmission. If it is, one wonders why the fix has not been applied to all of these vehicles.

Because the transmission has not been recalled. Just like many updates, it's only done if the customer complains.

BTW, this same transmission is used in the Acura TLX and Range Rover Evoque albeit with different versions of the software. Acura did recall 9400 cars to update the software. RR has not had any reported issues.

houdini1

nyccarguy said:

@henryn - that dude on the diesel forum is a certified nut job. I stick around there purely for the entertainment value.

Or affiliated with diesel lobby.

imidazol97

stever said:

Let's stick to talking about cars please.

@imidazol97, the CR-V EPA numbers getting lowered are interesting. If Honda lowered them because they wanted to fix the vibration at idle that some owners have complained about, then there must have been some "play" in the calculations since only the AWD numbers have gone down. I'm really curious to see how the spin comes down.

I'm extrapolating that this may be the tip of the iceberg for some other companies with some fudging correction. I just keep hoping nothing involves GM; they've had their share of grief.

houdini1

thebean said:

sda said:

What I find interesting about the VW diesel issue is that I initially thought the override program was only on US spec cars as US emission standards are different than in other countries. I guess they couldn't meet the standards in other countries as well and applied their fix to all. As been said so many times, what a mess. But I think VW will survive and ultimately be better for it.

I'm afraid if they do survive (which I think they will do), they will go right back to their old ways.  Huge companies are slow to change their culture, and this is a culture issue to me - the engineers were afraid to tell the leaders that the engine wouldn't pass emissions tests as is.  I hope I'm wrong.  


Has anyone thought to also test emissions from gassers for all mfgs.? They may be fudged too. Just saying.

stickguy

fudging the MPG #s is not IMO anywhere near as big of a big deal (assuming the car still passes the emissions test). that is at most a black eye, and maybe a fine (depending on the reason) or credit to owners. So some $ hit, but no recalls, or fixes required.

I'm sure VW would be happy if they just had to get knuckles slapped and cut a check to be done with their issue!

houdini1

stickguy said:

fudging the MPG #s is not IMO anywhere near as big of a big deal (assuming the car still passes the emissions test). that is at most a black eye, and maybe a fine (depending on the reason) or credit to owners. So some $ hit, but no recalls, or fixes required.

I'm sure VW would be happy if they just had to get knuckles slapped and cut a check to be done with their issue!

Yeah, I was referring to emissions, not mileage.

abacomike

My brother and I visited TPC Sawgrass (golf course in Ponte Vedra) late this morning.  Unbelievable set up.

Just about every other car parked up there was a German manufactured luxury car or SUV.  Lots of Porsche Cayenne's and Panamera's.  Quite a few Audi's and Mercedes-Benz as well.  Saw a few Ferrari's too.  The course is in an extremely upscale community.

We stopped by the Porsche Dealer where he ordered his Cayenne and I sat in the front seat of a GTS model which is almost identical to the S model except for the engine.  Truly an ergonomic Eden or heaven.  They don't have any S models and there are none available in the gray color he wants anywhere in the state.  I guess for $92,000+ MSRP, the vehicle should be awesome.

Weather has been very cool - low 70's all day and expected to go into the low 60's tonight.  Brrrrr.  I am not used to this coming from the far southeast coast.

I think tomorrow or Thursday, we are going out on his boat - 30+ feet long.  I asked him to stay in the inter coastal waters and the St. John's River as I am not an Atlantic Ocean lover.  Will let you know what it was like.

houdini1

abacomike said:

My brother and I visited TPC Sawgrass (golf course in Ponte Vedra) late this morning.  Unbelievable set up.

Just about every other car parked up there was a German manufactured luxury car or SUV.  Lots of Porsche Cayenne's and Panamera's.  Quite a few Audi's and Mercedes-Benz as well.  Saw a few Ferrari's too.  The course is in an extremely upscale community.

We stopped by the Porsche Dealer where he ordered his Cayenne and I sat in the front seat of a GTS model which is almost identical to the S model except for the engine.  Truly an ergonomic Eden or heaven.  They don't have any S models and there are none available in the gray color he wants anywhere in the state.  I guess for $92,000+ MSRP, the vehicle should be awesome.

Weather has been very cool - low 70's all day and expected to go into the low 60's tonight.  Brrrrr.  I am not used to this coming from the far southeast coast.

I think tomorrow or Thursday, we are going out on his boat - 30+ feet long.  I asked him to stay in the inter coastal waters and the St. John's River as I am not an Atlantic Ocean lover.  Will let you know what it was like.

Sounds like great fun. I got to play Saw Grass back about 1986. It was fairly new then and I birdied the first hole...went downhill fast from there. Got to play with Johnny Miller. He was announcing then but could still really play. He is a really nice guy and had some great stories. He said he said something on air that Curtis Strange didn't like and Strange wanted to beat him up. He said he could take him any day !!

I hit the green on the infamous #17, and proceeded to 3 putt.

dino001

houdini1 said:

Has anyone thought to also test emissions from gassers for all mfgs.? They may be fudged too. Just saying.

I think it is not too far fetched. The politicians enact very aggressive targets like it's nothing and stay deaf to warnings about costs (to be fair, lobbiests exaggerrate them) of mandatory increased mileage, improved safety, or lowered emissions. Manufacturers could only object to some point, then they simply had to make their product to comply. The issue may not be whether they could or could not produce properly compliant product, but whether they could hit the proper price range. Politicians and activist always say their projects will "only" cost a few bucks per car, but it is all cumulative and new mandates come in fast and furious these days.

There are certain realities out there - you can only sell so many units at a given point, but if you need more to stay profitable, you have hard choices to make. Cheating becomes a compelling option, only reinforced when you get away with it early on.

It would not surprise me if things were much more rotten across the board, but I'm afraid we won't know. When you read those phenomenal specs of the new dowsized engines, it has to come at expense of something - most obvious is durability, but if you could cheat and get away with it, the temptation may be hard to resist.

driver100

but if you could cheat and get away with it, the temptation may be hard to resist.

I guess cheaters do believe they will get away with it or they wouldn't attempt it in the first place.

I suppose, if your employer is building an engine that is going to cost a few $billion to produce, and you can't get the numbers where you need them to be, then there will be a lot of pressure to find a way to beat the test. It's one of the realities of the way business is conducted these days. It isn't right, but, if you have a risk taker who doesn't have a lot of scruples, you could easily go down that path....but, what a risk!

driver100

Hey Mike, have fun!
Don't forget to try out an Explorer....maybe you'll have a surprise car buying story to tell us.

Oldfarmer, if you are around....that Mustang looks great in that red color.

dino001

driver100 said:

but if you could cheat and get away with it, the temptation may be hard to resist.

I guess cheaters do believe they will get away with it or they wouldn't attempt it in the first place.

I suppose, if your employer is building an engine that is going to cost a few $billion to produce, and you can't get the numbers where you need them to be, then there will be a lot of pressure to find a way to beat the test. It's one of the realities of the way business is conducted these days. It isn't right, but, if you have a risk taker who doesn't have a lot of scruples, you could easily go down that path....but, what a risk!

It rarely starts big. It usually starts as a small trangression and grows with every successful try. My guess they cheated on Euro tests first, which were much less restrictive. Perhaps for a long time. When American EPA new standards rolled in, the "solution" presented itself as "obvious". This is a theory only, I have no evidence, just a logical guess for a scenario.

oldfarmer50

Michaell said:

nyccarguy said:

@henryn - that dude on the diesel forum is a certified nut job. I stick around there purely for the entertainment value.

He's passionate ... just like many of us on this discussion.

These guys are getting a little rowdy. Better turn the hose on 'em.

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

Hey Mike, have fun!
Don't forget to try out an Explorer....maybe you'll have a surprise car buying story to tell us.

Oldfarmer, if you are around....that Mustang looks great in that red color.

Funny thing about that color. It looks different with different lighting. On cloudy days it looks almost maroon. In bright sun it's candy apple red. Looks different if you wear sunglasses. Go figure.

berri

Are the sunglasses polarized lenses?

imidazol97

oldfarmer50 said:

Hey Mike, have fun! Don't forget to try out an Explorer....maybe you'll have a surprise car buying story to tell us. Oldfarmer, if you are around....that Mustang looks great in that red color.

Funny thing about that color. It looks different with different lighting. On cloudy days it looks almost maroon. In bright sun it's candy apple red. Looks different if you wear sunglasses. Go figure.

I'm going to go to local Ford store to xx see the color on various models to see if there's difference.

js06gv

imidazol97 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Hey Mike, have fun! Don't forget to try out an Explorer....maybe you'll have a surprise car buying story to tell us. Oldfarmer, if you are around....that Mustang looks great in that red color.

Funny thing about that color. It looks different with different lighting. On cloudy days it looks almost maroon. In bright sun it's candy apple red. Looks different if you wear sunglasses. Go figure.

I'm going to go to local Ford store to xx see the color on various models to see if there's difference.

I'm pretty sure it's the same color across the board, at least in name. It may look a little different model to model though. I know the specific color on our Mustang, Deep Impact Blue, is available on several Ford models. I see a lot of Explorers and Escapes in this hue. 

oldfarmer50

js06gv said:

imidazol97 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

Hey Mike, have fun!
Don't forget to try out an Explorer....maybe you'll have a surprise car buying story to tell us.

Oldfarmer, if you are around....that Mustang looks great in that red color.

Funny thing about that color. It looks different with different lighting. On cloudy days it looks almost maroon. In bright sun it's candy apple red. Looks different if you wear sunglasses. Go figure.

I'm going to go to local Ford store to xx see the color on various models to see if there's difference.

I'm pretty sure it's the same color across the board, at least in name. It may look a little different model to model though. I know the specific color on our Mustang, Deep Impact Blue, is available on several Ford models. I see a lot of Explorers and Escapes in this hue. 

Did you ever post a picture of your Mustang? I've recently seen some new ones around in colors I thought wouldn't be my first choice (like Guard) and they look really good. Perhaps that car has the right "bones" which makes it look good in any color unlike my 4th generation Eclipse which I only thought looked good in red or black.

driver100

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

Hey Mike, have fun!
Don't forget to try out an Explorer....maybe you'll have a surprise car buying story to tell us.

Oldfarmer, if you are around....that Mustang looks great in that red color.

Funny thing about that color. It looks different with different lighting. On cloudy days it looks almost maroon. In bright sun it's candy apple red. Looks different if you wear sunglasses. Go figure.

My friends S8 Audi looks deep chocolate brown from some angles, then you walk around and it seems to be a deep gray color. I still see some of the nicest blues and other colors on the most economical cars...mainly Hyundais and Chevy Cruze.

graphicguy

Gonna make a broad, general statement. But, I think Ford has learned to put paint on their vehicles that is equal to the likes of Lexus (who to me is at the pinacle of paint schemes I've observed on cars).