Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

imidazol97 · November 2015

driver100 said:
I think they will sell the lemon off to an auction or an indie lot, GM won't want that car to be connected directly to them.

In an earlier post GG said something about the vehicle going to GM engineering (Warren, MI?). There I would assume it will be driven and its behavior monitored with proper equipment to determine just what has been going wrong. Subsequently it will be fixed and given to a vocational school for training purposes.However, in the process GM will have learned what the other Cincinnati urban Cadillac dealership didn't learn or didn't want to fix.

Our local area JVS auto department has several such vehicles from various manufacturers, including the ones who build "perfect" cars. Same for a community college with an auto technology department that feeds from the local JVS. They cannot be titled and have been donated by the manufacturers.

I have suggested doing some checking of the VINs in online Ohio records of titles for the two Cadillacs GG has had to see if there's any hint of how the one dealer seemed to have cars with problems. It reminds me of when our friends bought a low mileage "demonstrator" Jetta from a VW dealer in Northern Cincy. They could never get the engine light off. It spent weeks at the selling dealer.

graphicguy · November 2015

Thanks guys. We'll see. It ain't over till it's over. Did a very brief test drive of the '16. 8 speed trans vs the '14's 6 speed. Feels quicker and is certainly smoother with closer gear ratios. Not sure if this is a GM design, or they xource it from the likes of ZF, but it's a better transmission over their previous 6 speed.

CUE...big improvement. Not sure what happened with the one in my '14. It just stopped working. I guess if I would have made more of an issue, they eventually would have replaced the entire CUE system. I just got ot the point I didn't care anymore, though. Apple Car Play is very nice, simple and will render Navigation systems from the car manufacturers' obsolete. My guess is the manufacturers will want the revenue from the expensive Nav option, but will have a hard time charging for it. So, I'm betting they'll start charging for the screen and interface to Car Play to make up for it. Anyway, certainly makes the Nav much easier to use and functional.

Remembering what the steering was supposed to feel like is pretty amazing. I had forgotten what it was supposed to be like. As much as they tried to fix the power steering, they never really did, entirely. It was still "problematic" in my '14. It just wsn't as problem prone as it was initially.

The one thing they DID finally fix (after 5 tries) was the stalling. It hasn't stalled in several weeks.

Right front suspension seems to be an issue, now. Almost sounds/feels like a busted shock. Not sure. Don't care. Rides and sounds like a suspension with 200K miles on it (not 10K like it does now).

Not certain what they'll do with the '14. Originally, they told me they were sending it to Cadillac engineering. But, who knows? It could end up on a BHPH lot with a "buyback" title. It still looks great. Someone, somewhere will fall in love with the style and not care about checking the CARFAX. Then again, from what I've heard from some of you here, CARFAX can be "scrubbed".

Anyway, yeah...I'll get some pics after I make certain the transaction is done.

bwia · November 2015

graphicguy said:

OK....I think the lemon '14 Canidillac CTS story is about to come to a close. Last I posted, the dealership (not the original purchasing dealership) who was working with the GM Repurchasing Center had sold the car I wanted....a 2016 CTS Performance model. It was the only one they had in a 2016 (they did have a leftover 2015 that I wasn't interested in). After a bit of give and take, GM agreed to let me purchase the CTS Luxury model (which was less expensive) and give me the dollar difference. Kind of convoluted because there are all sorts of fees and tax implications, but GM is FedEx-ing me the check (supposed to arrive today). I signed their agreement on Monday with the caveat noted if the check wasn't what we agreed to, or the numbers aren't right when I pick up the new car at the dealership, no deal. I think Cadillac is somehow reimbursing the new Cadillac dealer for making NO money on the '16, in addition to making me whole on the price difference on the two cars, plus the change in incentives. Bottom line, I had driven the luxury version of the CTS. Drives about the same as the Performance version given the magnetic shocks come with the Luxury version if you get the upgraded wheels and tires (which are indeed on my car). I did really like the "umber" leather in the original Performance version, but I'm good with the tan leather in the Luxruy version I'm getting. I'm giving up the digital dash, which is OK by me, too. Aside from that, the Perforamnce and Luxruy versions are about the same. My thought process, I just want to put this behind me, get rid of my still broken '14 with no money out of my pocket. I did that, and then some! Fair? From my perspective, Cadillac corporate fought me tooth and nail. They wouldn't authorize their dealerships to fix my car right. In the end, it probably would have been cheaper for them to just return my money, as I had originally requested. Insteand, they now have my old car, which will be labelled as a Cadillac buy back (not sure if it would be titled a lemon, as car companies try to stay away from that word). In return, they sent me a sizeable check, plus they gave me a car that's two model years newer with no money coming from me. I'll probably pick up the '16 tomorrow after the dealership gets the PDI done. This could have gone a lot better. Original selling dealer seems to have some sort of "grey area" in which they operate in. Found it with my Mother's Cadillac over 10 years ago, and again with me on the '14 CTS. Can't quite put my finger on it, but they seem to have cars.;....new cars, demo cars, etc that have an inordinate amount of issues. I think this has maifested itself past the point of being coincidence. Never dealt with the new dealership, except this time. New management came into play and things seemed to get rolling once they were involved. I suppose given the amount of cars this group buys and sells, crazy situations are bound to arise. As we've all suspected, I think Cadillac has a ways to go to match the customer service from the likes of BMW or Lexus.

Sounds like a reasonable settlement but perhaps you should have considered test driving the new model before signing the papers. Good luck with it and Happy driving.

stickguy · November 2015

Good luck getting over the hump. If you don't count your time and aggravation, at least coming out ahead on the deal!

nyccarguy · November 2015

@graphicguy - I won't congratulate you until you officially take delivery, but will wish you the best of luck.

on a side note, would this 2016 CTS count as a CCBA card punch?

dino001 · November 2015

nyccarguy said:
@graphicguy - I won't congratulate you until you officially take delivery, but will wish you the best of luck

Same here.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2015

Oh you have to give him a punch for this, c'mon!

nyccarguy said:
@graphicguy - I won't congratulate you until you officially take delivery, but will wish you the best of luck.

on a side note, would this 2016 CTS count as a CCBA card punch?

stever · November 2015

Forum note - some of us are having issues when we use the back button to "refresh" the discussion list. Still checking it out, may be related to some software improvements recently rolled in.

driver100 · November 2015

stever said:
Forum note - some of us are having issues when we use the back button to "refresh" the discussion list. Still checking it out, may be related to some software improvements recently rolled in.

Hmmm. never tried the back button to refresh.
I press F5 in the top row of the buttons.

driver100 · November 2015

stickguy said:
Good luck getting over the hump. If you don't count your time and aggravation, at least coming out ahead on the deal!

I'd say time and aggravation and not being able to use the car a lot of time still don't make it coming out ahead. Yes, it is a 2016 and will probably be a good new car.......but, who would ever want to go through all that?

stever · November 2015

driver100 said:

stever said:
Forum note - some of us are having issues when we use the back button to "refresh" the discussion list. Still checking it out, may be related to some software improvements recently rolled in.
Hmmm. never tried the back button to refresh.
I press F5 in the top row of the buttons.

F5 just refreshes the current page - those of us who read a lot of different discussions refresh off the Recent Discussions page, so if I left this page with the back arrow in the browser or on the keyboard, the discussion list would flop up, and this discussion list would be automatically refreshed.

driver100 · November 2015

stever said:

driver100 said:

stever said:
Forum note - some of us are having issues when we use the back button to "refresh" the discussion list. Still checking it out, may be related to some software improvements recently rolled in.
Hmmm. never tried the back button to refresh.
I press F5 in the top row of the buttons.
F5 just refreshes the current page - those of us who read a lot of different discussions refresh off the Recent Discussions page, so if I left this page with the back arrow in the browser or on the keyboard, the discussion list would flop up, and this discussion list would be automatically refreshed.

OK, I get it. That's why I try to keep my life as uncomplicated as possible and only have one discussion going at a time. My brain can't handle two.

Like in Florida some people want us to go here there and everywhere. I say, one activity a day is enough for me.

houdini1 · November 2015

Congrats GG. Might be interesting to order a carfax in a few months to see what it says and where the car went.

nyccarguy · November 2015

Mr_Shiftright said:

Oh you have to give him a punch for this, c'mon!
@graphicguy - I won't congratulate you until you officially take delivery, but will wish you the best of luck.

on a side note, would this 2016 CTS count as a CCBA card punch?

Are you kidding me? I think it counts as a punch, just wanted to hear what some of the experts thought;)

explorerx4 · November 2015

@Graphicguy,
Hope this all works out for you. It seems like you are close to a resolution.
Funny wrinkle in my truck purchase.
Brought a bank check as additional down payment and the dealer can't find it.
I'm ok, have a receipt for it.
I'll work with them to get it resolved.

oldfarmer50 · November 2015

GG, congrats on the victory. I honestly dob't know what I'd do in your shoes. If you sell it, sell it right away. If you get find of the new one and something glitches you'll kick yourself.

Watching Jay Leno's Garage and he just raced and beat an autonomous Audi by 1 second. I don't think the Germans expected that. Kept saying he was a crazy driver.

stickguy · November 2015

I wonder how that would work, trading in an hour after he "buys" it? Probably cause a mess at the 2nd dealer, since it won't even be registered by then most likely.

[Deleted User] · November 2015

Wonderful news, GG. Glad to see resolution coming for you and I hope the new ride beats your expectations, or you find something else to enjoy. I want to thank you for keeping the forum updated along the way. Not knowing the ending would have been like skipping the last chapter of a good mystery book.

ab348 · November 2015

GG, what does this make, your 5th lifetime buyback? You should write a book.

driver100 · November 2015

stickguy
November 19
I wonder how that would work, trading in an hour after he "buys" it? Probably cause a mess at the 2nd dealer, since it won't even be registered by then most likely.

When we took the Passat in for service I was looking at used cars on the BMW used car lot. Almost all the cars in the front row were Lexus's, do you think they were trying to make a point?

graphicguy · November 2015

Thanks, guys. Fact is, we all spend a lot of money on cars. I can't think of any other high buck purchase that I've ever had to put up with the level of problems than I had with Cadillac.

You buy a 65" UHD TV, and spend a couple of thousand, if it has issues under the warranty, and they can't fix it, you return it. Why a car is any different, I don't know.

In my case, it was the combination of the attitude of Cadillac and the dealers' disinterest or inability to fix it that made it so frustrating. None of us buy cars in the hopes we will have problems with them. We buy them because we like them. And, we spend a lot of money doing so.

It shouldn't matter if it's our HVAC system, our toaster, our TV, our computer, or our car. If it doesn't perform, stalls, steering fails, electronics quit working, either fix it or take it back.

This whole situation could have gone an entirely different direction (at least a more positive one). After the 3rd attempt to fix any of the issues, Cadillac could have just admitted that there were things wrong that they just couldn't fix at the dealer level. Insead, they denied there were problems (only to later admit that there were problems, like the stalling issue).

Not sure what culpability the dealerships had in this fiasco, given I've heard others tell the same story, deny problems exist, minimize the customers' concerns, turn the blame back towards the customer as being the culprit. That's not a good way to do business.

Instead, they chose to irritate and frustrate me. Why? Who knows? In the end, it cost them more to do the swap out, than it did if they had just admitted the car had issues they just didn't understand, and returned my money to me.

At least I would have appreciated their forthrightness.

Trading the car right away? Maybe! Will see what is out there come end of year. I don't even know what I want to replace it.

That said, nothing has been finished. I'm supposed to get the check and give my '14 CTS back to the dealer today and pick up the new one. At least, that's what Cadillac Corporate set up to happen.

dino001 · November 2015

graphicguy said:

Instead, they chose to irritate and frustrate me. Why? Who knows?

Because they thought they could. How many people would have given up and moved on? In their bean counter mind it pays to do what they did, because it works majority of the time and the money lost on once-in-a-while "GG-type" is not enough to change that. Moreover, who knows, you may have lied, they had to go through all motions to make sure you didn't. Your aggravation and disappointment is small price to pay (for them of course, not you). It's sad, but it's understandable in the myopic world of corporate policies, or dealer-manufacturer relationship dynamics.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2015

My opinion is that when you go into a courtroom, or any kind of arbitration process. don't go looking for "justice" or "fairness"; rather, study the system under which you are working and try to manipulate that system to your advantage. It's all a dance of maneuvers and of knowing the most (and least) effective ways of directing your resources (aka, time, energy and money).

graphicguy · November 2015

Mr Shiftright....agreed.

Dino...Auto manufacturers', and to a lesser degree, their dealerships, seem to treat their warranties like suggestions. Cadillac has whole depts set up to run interference and resisteance between those who have problems with their cars, and the company. Even the process of getting resolution to issues is built upon insulating Cadillac from any sort of negative customer experience.

First you go to the dealer (numerous times). They can't solve the issue, you can't even go to corporate yet. You have to go through the BBB. They call the dealership. Dealership fields complaints and rehashes the same old tired lines...."operates as designed...can't duplicate problems....etc". Then, it's back to BBB, who escalates it to Cadillac Corporate, who in turn refers you to another dealer. Then, the process repeats itself, over and over.

Before you know it, you're 6 months into the issues with the car, have been bounced around from dept to dept, been through 3-4 different business entities (dealerships, BBB, Cadillac Corp, etc) who have stonewalled you, and it's no wonder people just give up, as you point out.

This sort of treatment just solidifies my resolve. It tarnishes Cadillac's (already fragile) reputation and no doubt, causes them to lose sales.

There were so many opportunties along the way for Cadillac to have turned a negative into a positive, and they dismissed every one of them.

Regardless of the business you're in, that's not the way to conduct it. I tell the people who work for me (and the people I work for) all the time...."I've never known a business to fail by listening to their customers."

stever · November 2015

I would really like to see mandatory binding arbitration go away in the car business (well, most everywhere for consumers). Arbitration is great, but it should be voluntary.

graphicguy · November 2015

stever said:
I would really like to see mandatory binding arbitration go away in the car business (well, most everywhere for consumers). Arbitration is great, but it should be voluntary.

Steve...I agree. In this situation, mandatory arbitration did nothing more than stall the inevitable and make a bad situation untenable. They actually went so far as to schedule the hearing at a time when I told them I couldn't make it to the hearing. Thanks to some of the suggestions here, I agreed to attend the hearing via the phone. Had my paperwork all filled out, all the receipts, all the dates my car was out of service....in short, my ducks were in a row. But, there was no arbitration that actually happened. Once Cadillac saw I was willing to go to arbitration, and there wasn't much they could defend, then their stance changed and could actually be seen as conciliatory. It never should have gone that far, though.

dino001 · November 2015

graphicguy said:

Trading the car right away? Maybe! Will see what is out there come end of year. I don't even know what I want to replace it.

Up to you, bro. There is no wrong answer here. Try it out and keep, perhaps you get a peach this time - how many times can you get a lemon? Drop it, you sever the ties with those guys once and for all. Both good. There may be some good replacement choices out there, but yeah, it's a hassle, too.

driver100 · November 2015

dino001 said:

graphicguy said:

Trading the car right away? Maybe! Will see what is out there come end of year. I don't even know what I want to replace it.
Up to you, bro. There is no wrong answer here. Try it out and keep, perhaps you get a peach this time - how many times can you get a lemon? Drop it, you sever the ties with those guys once and for all. Both good. There may be some good replacement choices out there, but yeah, it's a hassle, too.

Yeh, GG it's your choice whether to keep it or not, I think it is worth keeping for awhile, it might just be the car of your dreams.

With my wife's A4, she lost confidence in the company, and she just wanted to get rid of it. So, we ended up paying $1200 of the $2300 bill. But, I think they actually did us a favor. If we went to trade the Audi in today it probably dropped more than that in value.

I should write them and thank them. Sometimes these things work out for the better.

andres3 · November 2015

carnaught said:
"I don't think giving up all our freedom to a police state is a keen idea."

In the Middle East innocent people are literally getting carved up by large knife attacks, wounds so bad, they can't simply get sutured up.

Not an all-or-none phenomenon, "all of our freedom", but I would give up some of my freedoms for as much security as possible. We just have to be prudent and realistic. If it's not stopped, it's not a matter of "if", but "when" these things start happening more commonly here. Besides "911", remember what happened at the Boston Marathon.

We can't afford to overreact to isolated terrorist threats.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2015

I think every family, city or country, when a crisis hits, should be prohibited from making any draconian decisions until the craziness of the moment subsides. As we can see even from these arbitration clauses, when you grant power to an entity, it never voluntarily gives it back to you.

roadburner · November 2015

Speaking of dealers, Edmund's Long-Term Vipers have been to a few winners. Their last Viper had a hatch strut mount break and the Service Advisor told them that a hole would have to be cut in the internal sheetmetal to repair it. In actuality all that was needed was the removal of an interior panel and the use of a rivet gun- 15 minutes total.
In the case of their current Viper, it was brought in for an oil change and the tech told them he was having trouble opening the rear hatch. When asked why he needed to open the hatch the tech replied: "To get to the engine."

Mr_Shiftright · November 2015

Maybe he mistook it for a Pantera.

explorerx4 · November 2015

js06gv,
Thanks for the tip on the telescoping wheel. I probably would have found it in a year or two.

Speaking of TV's, I saw some 3D 4K models at the store over the weekend. What a realistic picture!

berri · November 2015

I wonder if those pictures are really from cable or if they are special 4K feeds? I read that cable compression may preclude most 4K on TV shows right now, but I may be misunderstanding the article. But heck, even some of the non-4K Sony and Samsung sets look terrific. I was in a Costco the other day and they had an end cap with a Samsung 55" HD set and a Samsung sound bar and woofer for a combined total sale of under $600. The picture was excellent. Unbelievable deal even if that set is being replaced in the next month or two with a new model !

carnaught · November 2015

We can't afford to overreact to isolated terrorist threats.

Yeah, we need to airdrop tons of those "COEXIST" bumper stickers over Raqqa

.

oldfarmer50 · November 2015

explorerx4 said:
@Graphicguy,
Hope this all works out for you. It seems like you are close to a resolution.
Funny wrinkle in my truck purchase.
Brought a bank check as additional down payment and the dealer can't find it.
I'm ok, have a receipt for it.
I'll work with them to get it resolved.

explorerx4 said:
@Graphicguy,
Hope this all works out for you. It seems like you are close to a resolution.
Funny wrinkle in my truck purchase.
Brought a bank check as additi

I was going to joke with you that the check was up on the roof with the keys to your trade but what the heck is going on with Edmunds system? I thought driver100 had hiccups but this is rediculious.

driver100 · November 2015

oldfarmer50 said:

explorerx4 said:
@Graphicguy,
Hope this all works out for you. It seems like you are close to a resolution.
Funny wrinkle in my truck purchase.
Brought a bank check as additional down payment and the dealer can't find it.
I'm ok, have a receipt for it.
I'll work with them to get it resolved.

explorerx4 said:
@Graphicguy,
Hope this all works out for you. It seems like you are close to a resolution.
Funny wrinkle in my truck purchase.
Brought a bank check as additional down payment and the dealer can't find it.
I'm ok, have a receipt for it.
I'll work with them to get it resolved.

explorerx4 said:
@Graphicguy,
Hope this all works out for you. It seems like you are close to a resolution.
Funny wrinkle in my truck purchase.
Brought a bank check as additional down payment and the dealer can't find it.
I'm ok, have a receipt for it.
I'll work with them to get it resolved.

explorerx4 said:
@Graphicguy,
Hope this all works out for you. It seems like you are close to a resolution.
Funny wrinkle in my truck purchase.
Brought a bank check as additional down payment and the dealer can't find it.
I'm ok, have a receipt for it.
I'll work with them to get it resolved.

explorerx4 said:
@Graphicguy,
Hope this all works out for you. It seems like you are close to a resolution.
Funny wrinkle in my truck purchase.
Brought a bank check as additi

I was going to joke with you that the check was up on the roof with the keys to your trade but what the heck is going on with Edmunds system? I thought driver100 had hiccups but this is rediculious.

Even I haven't repeated myself 5 times!

Mr_Shiftright · November 2015

After using "quote", check the body of your post for repetitions and edit them out. Not sure how you managed 5 identical quotes. Maybe Stever has an answer for that? Backspacing?

stever · November 2015

Beats me - I thought it mostly just @driver100.

graphicguy · November 2015

OK, OldFarmer....you made your point!

oldfarmer50 · November 2015

graphicguy said:
OK, OldFarmer....you made your point!

I think I know what happened. Sometimes the Edmunds system acts very slowly and when you hit "quote" there is such a long delay that you think you need to hit it again (or in my case pound with your fist numerous times) :@ I'll try to be more patient next time.

Speaking of patience, it seems waiting for a left over Mustang would be a bad idea. I received an email from Ford inviting me to join in on the Family & Neighbors sale event where you supposedly get "insider" discounts. So just for giggles I checked out local inventory.

Kind of disappointing. Their big discount amounted to less than 8% on some pricey loaded models. I can see some of these still being on the lot this time next year.

What discount would you expect to see on a leftover 15' ? I'm thinking 12-15% minimum.

oldfarmer50 · November 2015

Maybe I should have waited.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2016-chevrolet-camaro-is-the-motor-trend-car-of-the-year/

If it wasn't for the terrible visability I'd really like it.

driver100 · November 2015

oldfarmer50 said:
Maybe I should have waited.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2016-chevrolet-camaro-is-the-motor-trend-car-of-the-year/

If it wasn't for the terrible visability I'd really like it.

I think you bought the right car for you. The Camaro sounds great if you were racing around on a race track all day long. That seems to be the edge.

Besides, what if you had a warranty problem.....we have seen how you would be treated.

(hopefully the quote part won't be repeated 5 or 6 X)

graphicguy · November 2015

My little sister has a '13 Camaro SS Convertible. Fun, fun car. But, visibility is indeed pretty bad. And, the interior leaves a lot to be desired. Punishing ride on all but smooth pavement, too. Mustang is the better all around car, IMHO.

So, picked up the new CTS last night. Dealer had the check from GM as we agreed. Signed my title over to the dealer. Dealer signed the new title over to me. This was a deal done with the General Manager (GM) and F&I guy. GM asked what was wrong with my '14 to get Cadillac to do a buy back. Given management had changed at this dealership (last servicing dealer), he wasn't privy to all that happened before. I told him to drive it around the block.

I was the only customer in the dealership, so the GM took me up on my offer. He came back 10 minutes later and immediately said...."wow, how long have you been driving that car around like that?" "Since almost new".

GM-"no one could fix it?"
GG-"why do you think it's being bought back?"

I had forgot why I bought the original CTS to begin with. The steering on the '16 is such a huge difference over the '14. Feels a bit quicker, but not sure why, given the dealer said the '16 has a little less HP, but same amount of torque. I figure it's because of the 8-speed trans on the new one vs the 6 speed in the '14. Either way, the new trans is much smoother. It reminds me of the auto in my E92 335i. That is, very good.

All the safety stuff is still there...lane keep, front and rear collision alerts, etc.

CUE is MUCH better. Car Play is great. Practically my entire iPhone functionality is on the indash screen and the voice recognition is a quantum leap better.

The "on/off at stop" function will take some getting used to. Out of all the cars I've driven with that technology, I will say the Cadillac does it best. Very quick and smooth stopping and starting. It's also defeatable.

Probably shop it around a little this weekend to see what a '16 CTS with 17 miles on it is worth used.

explorerx4 · November 2015

@Graphicguy,
Glad you can close that chapter and move on.

stever · November 2015

Great to hear that the deal really is done, @graphicguy.

carnaught · November 2015

Graphic, congrats on the resolution of your situation, no matter what you decide to do from here.

stickguy · November 2015

congratulations. I was never really sure until now it was going to happen. Lot of pain, but you came out good on the back end at least (financially).

who knows, maybe this one is finally the keeper!

isellhondas · November 2015

GG, I'm happy for you that this saga is finally OVER!

bwia · November 2015

GG, now that you have new wheels we probably will be seeing less of you on this thread. By the way, the CTS comes in so many flavors --- turbo, twin turbo, 3.6V, AWD, Magnetic ride, Automatic park assist, etc. What did you get? Nonetheless, post some interior and exterior pics.

And one more thing, you may have a tax problem on this deal. If you received more than you gave up (an increase in wealth) that difference might be taxable.

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