Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

ab348

oldfarmer50 said:

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Dang, that is nice.

Interior is too dark for a convertible; you could only put the top down on cloudy days. That ordering mistake is worth at least a $20K discount.

snakeweasel

andres3 said:

I understand the frustration with traffic, but I think you unfairly put too much of the blame on people trying to get where they are going in the "fast lane" as you put it. However, if the 4 lanes don't progressively move faster as you move to each lane to the left, the problem is the impeders, not traffic and not speeders. The fact that all lanes move the same exact speed or often have the right lane faster than the left lane is frustrating to people that have somewhere to be (time is money).

An old boss once had a saying to people who rushed in to work late. He said "leave five minutes earlier. So if someone has to go faster to get somewhere then maybe they should practice better time management. Don't put my life in danger simply because you are late.

andres3 said:

I could maybe support your wish for stern enforcement of the speed limits if these things were given priority first:

1. Abolish left lane camping and impeders. Left lane for passing only. Slower traffic move right. Enforce that until we are like a 1st world country.
   
2. 
   
3. Abolish speed limits not justified by the 85th percentile (essentially set speed limits correctly).
   
4. 
   
5. Greater punishment and enforcement to distracted dangerous driving and people that actually cause accidents (and traffic via accidents).
   

I think there are much bigger fish to fry than speeders.

As for abolish speed limits, here is an great idea, post speed limits that reflect the design of the road. If 85% of the drivers were rational drivers we wouldn't have so many posts on this board.

As for greater punishment for people that actually cause accidents? I would rather see less accidents by aggressive punishments for activity that causes accidents.

snakeweasel

Michaell said:

Or

oldfarmer50 said:

imidazol97 said:

snakeweasel said:

As for revenue, while it is a significant stream of revenue it is also a significant expense in enforcing those laws. You have the policemans salary and benefits and well as the office workers who process the tickets, the court clerks and judges in the courts and their office workers that support them. Add to this the buildings they work in equipment they use and the people that support those and it is a significant drain on resources.

Just think how many of those could be laid off or moved to a productive position if the unnecessary tickets were abolished.

However, I am in favor of enforcing the laws, equally, for everyone. I like to notice the speeds the policemen drive on duty as well as off duty on the same roads where they give out tickets. For quite a while, the obnoxious speeders and tailgaters around this area had the little FOP metal badges on their rear license plate. And they drove like bats out of hill often in ego cars.

All of us may know someone who has a get-out-of-jail free card because of a law enforcement relative or political position relative.

However, I am in favor of stern enforcement of speed limits on the part of the obnoxious folks. Arch examples are those who treat the high speed lane as their personal diamond lane and expect anyone else to be out of that lane before they speed up on their rears. IOW, the "little people" should follow the laws and be in "their" lanes crowded as they may be, to allow the special folks to flagrantly speed past in lane #4 of 4 on I75 south, e.g..

The ultimate solution to all those traffic violations is to have the black box in your car rat you out to the cops. You speed, a ticket comes in the mail a week later.

Or speed governors wired into the speed limits for the road - if the current speed limit can be displayed on your navigation system, how much harder would it be to simply restrict the top speed based on that information?

Oh wait, now we're going down the road to autonomous cars....

I would take what the speed limit displayed on a GPS with a grain of salt. The major road that goes by my house has a speed limit that is 45 MPH and going east it goes down to 40 MPH. My GPS has the speed limit at 45 MPH for about 2 blocks into the 40 MPH zone. Now about two miles after that the GPS shows the speed limit going down to 35 MPH right in the middle of a major intersection which would be 100% accurate - if it was 10 years ago. That 35 MPH speed limit was raised to 40 a long time ago and my GPS isn't nearly that old.

Maybe we could solve this by moving to Mackinac Island.

bwia

graphicguy said:

snakeweasel said:

imidazol97 said:

Just think how many of those could be laid off or moved to a productive position if the unnecessary tickets were abolished.

However, I am in favor of enforcing the laws, equally, for everyone. I like to notice the speeds the policemen drive on duty as well as off duty on the same roads where they give out tickets. For quite a while, the obnoxious speeders and tailgaters around this area had the little FOP metal badges on their rear license plate. And they drove like bats out of hill often in ego cars.

All of us may know someone who has a get-out-of-jail free card because of a law enforcement relative or political position relative.

However, I am in favor of stern enforcement of speed limits on the part of the obnoxious folks. Arch examples are those who treat the high speed lane as their personal diamond lane and expect anyone else to be out of that lane before they speed up on their rears. IOW, the "little people" should follow the laws and be in "their" lanes crowded as they may be, to allow the special folks to flagrantly speed past in lane #4 of 4 on I75 south, e.g..

Are you saying that we should have laws but not enforce them?

I agree that it should be equally enforced but not to enforce them simply because some think they are unnecessary is wrong.

Also note that in most cases in minor traffic offenses it is the officers discretion if they write a ticket.

Not too much in recent years, but in the past, there used to be people who would happen by the old SFTSFL thread asking if they received a good deal...mostly payment buyers. After we would walk them backwards through the deal (APR, Trade value, equity or lack thereof, etc) we'd finally get to the actual purchase price. Sometimes good, sometimes not.

At the end of the day, and we say it here all the time, too.....as long as you're happy with your deal, then it's all good.

But, don't shop payment. The deal is the purchase price, licensing fees, taxes, tags. That's it. Know what you're willing to pay based on those factors, and you'll KNOW if you received a good deal or not, and not have to ask.

If you're financing, shop APR. IF you have a trade, get 2 or 3 different sources for the value of the trade.

Leasing? Entirely different animal. I'm sure there are people here who are much more well versed on leasing than I am.

Remember that was a training video. The hypothetical buyer was satisfied with the price of the new MDX, trade-in allowance, color, specs and 60 month loan term. The issue for the buyer was after all of this, he still could not afford (or did not want to pay) the $600 monthly payment.

And that's where I think the Closer made an effective presentation to show that the net monthly cost was closer to $244, and not $600. The economics of the deal did not change, but the explanation was a strong motivation to close the deal. Ignoring Time Value of Money issues, as long as the MDX maintains a decent resale value, the buyer will realize these savings.

henryn

andres3 said:

henryn said:

Last night I was very happy with the brakes on my Passat. I was driving along a busy surface street, 4 lanes, divided with an esplanade. About 8:30, full dark, but good street lighting, businesses all along the street on both sides.

A fair bit of traffic, but not congested, cars spaced and moving at about 30 mph. I was in the right hand lane, as I was going to make a right turn at the next light. Some idiot sitting at the stop sign on a side street, decides to pull out in front of me. I mean, directly in front of me. Very luckily, I was looking right at him, saw what he was doing as soon as he started doing it, and hit the brakes very hard. The Passat stopped with about 2 feet to spare, very, very close thing.

If I had been looking down at the radio, or thinking about work, or any of a hundred different things, I would have hit him square in the driver’s door at 30 mph. If I had been driving my truck, I would have hit him, the truck is new (5k miles), so perfect brakes, but a pickup truck, any half ton pickup, cannot stop as quickly as the Passat did.

Now imagine is someone had skimped on decent tires and lengthened their stopping distance 4 feet because of that. Frankly, just another couple feet could be the difference between a claim and no claim, points or no points. There is so much riding on your tires (end of commercial here).

It has been a while since I did a true panic stop, try to push the brake pedal through the floor board, hold on and hope for the best. I really expected to hit this guy, he did not leave enough room for me to stop. I was very happy that the car did stop in time, that is after I quit shaking from the adrenaline.

I know that modern ABS, anti-lock braking systems, pulse the brakes, turning them on and off very rapidly to prevent the tires from skidding. I remember noticing, in a back corner of my mind, the part that wasn’t in total panic mode, that the brakes were really jerking the car. I mean seriously hard jerking, very rapid. It worked, and I’m very glad it worked. It’s not the kind of thing that I test, so I have no idea if my last few cars (and trucks) would do the same. Very noticeable, though, very.

stickguy

so, proud of myself today. Our garbage disposal died last night (OT, but I hate the stupid things, and would never choose to have one if it didn't come with the house).

anyway, tried to run it, and just got that hum noise when the motor is trying, but won't go. did a top inspection, and nothing was in there. so let it sit overnight. Same this AM. so unplugged, spun a few times with the little wrench, pushed what looked like a circuit reset button on the bottom, plugged it back in and it fired right up.

always nice to fix something for free and keep it going. especially something that gives no enjoyment to get a new one of! How long it lasts, who knows. Hopefully is was just a small jam that shut it down. No clue what, since we have a neat drain plug that only lets water and very small stuff down. Nothing big ever goes into the drain.

imidazol97

snakeweasel said:

As for greater punishment for people that actually cause accidents? I would rather see fewer accidents by aggressive punishments for activity that causes accidents.

Very sage statement. I can't agree more.

The belief behind my thinking that the group of a few speeders who want to go on a wilding spree in the left lane is not the 5-10 mph over folks. We end up in a PC event where those who want to be outliers in speed in the left lane want to control those who speak out about the extremes by claiming to be part of the mainstream. The same PC application wants to tell everyone else they're violating laws, but it's the extreme speeders who are the problem. My notes on high volume traffic are typically from observing the I75 traffic from Dayton to Cincinnati in early morning trips. When the left of 3 of 3 and now 4 of 4 lanes is used by a high number of cars, who may be going faster than the other 3 lanes, it works best. When someone wants to go even faster than the 5-10 over in the left lane they have to start tailgating and forcing others out of their way. The others moving into lane 3 of 4 causes a slowdown behind them which acts as an increasing compression wave in a spring, except unlike real world springs, this wave amplifies as people behind have to brake in increasing great amounts. Sometimes a minor event unexpectedly slowing a lane can end in near stop conditions on the interstate as the compression increases in magnitude behind the slowdown event. This interstate is interesting because it shows the psyche of the left lane outliers--the who trip is a 65 mph speed zone while most interstates and freeways in the state of like width and design are 70 mph. So some like to think the 40 mile open part is 70 and think 80 is fine. But that doesn't work in heavier traffic, and a lot of folks commute from Dayton region to Cincy region. The flow toward Dayton is also fairly heavy in the other direction.

snakeweasel

andres3 said:

I imagine the market for "disabling" the black box that rats on you would grow tremendously if that were enacted. Speed governor disablers seem even easier. I remember doing that to a golf cart and having some fun.

Got stuck in a sand pit; no quattro AWD.

Easy solution; if someone gets pulled over for speeding or are in an accident the black box is examined and if it is disabled and/or tampered with the car gets impounded and crushed into a cube.

jmonroe

driver100 said:

Quick update from Bern Switzerland. Insurance company found a dealer who will sell me the same car for about $3000 less than my dealer.....so that is the amount they are offering. But it doesn't include technology package ($2600), which my last car had.
Have to fight it out, nothing comes easy.

Sleazy dealer with $3000 lower price does etching for $300! That turns me off right there.

Don't get excited until you talk to someone that has the authority to get to the bottom of this. It sounds like what you got was from a clerk at the office that saw a low number pop up from a search done by them or someone else that didn't do a proper search. I'm almost positive that your VIN will provide all the info required to get you a one for one replacement.

Don't let this spoil your vacation. BTW, I guess Mrs. driver is doing fine since you guys are on vacation and that in itself is a good thing to celebrate given the BIG hit your late car received.

One more thing, I don't really understand you Canadians. What's wrong, you don't get enough cold weather there in the late Summer so you have to go looking for it thousands of miles away? I'll say this though, you're going to really appreciate thawing out this Winter in Florida.

I know you'll let us know what happens when you get back home.

jmonroe

jmonroe

stickguy said:

so, proud of myself today. Our garbage disposal died last night (OT, but I hate the stupid things, and would never choose to have one if it didn't come with the house).

anyway, tried to run it, and just got that hum noise when the motor is trying, but won't go. did a top inspection, and nothing was in there. so let it sit overnight. Same this AM. so unplugged, spun a few times with the little wrench, pushed what looked like a circuit reset button on the bottom, plugged it back in and it fired right up.

always nice to fix something for free and keep it going. especially something that gives no enjoyment to get a new one of! How long it lasts, who knows. Hopefully is was just a small jam that shut it down. No clue what, since we have a neat drain plug that only lets water and very small stuff down. Nothing big ever goes into the drain.

Unlike you, I think the garbage disposal is a great kitchen appliance and I wouldn't have a house without one. We have a 1 HP Kenmore and it has never jammed until, I think one of the grandkids, unknowingly let a plastic pop bottle cap fall into it.

Mrs. j loves watermelon and always cuts it up and puts the pieces in a bowl then feeds the disposal all of the rinds. That thing runs for about 3 minutes steady to chop it up but it does this all Summer long without a hiccup. One thing that they always caution you about not throwing into the disposal is banana peels, our disposal chops them up without a problem.

I think HP is the key here, just like with cars.

jmonroe

stickguy

we just throw the rinds into the garbage. My wife actually just cuts it up right over the pail.

roadburner

graphicguy said:

roadburner said:

@graphicguy: Remember that M235i convertible I posted for you back in August? Well, our current asking price is $7,651 under MSRP.
Just sayin'...

You are so evil on so many different levels.......

Can you re-post the link to the car's description? Wanna take a look at the equipment levels, again.

Beaurtiful car!

Here you go: 2016 M235i convertible

stever

I don't like 'em either, would rather compost that stuff and why this house has a disposal really beats me, since we're on a septic and you shouldn't be putting that stuff in the drains with a septic, even ground up. Unfortunately, you have to water your compost piles out here so that's not a great option either. Lots of organic stuff we just (literally) toss over the wall and the critters disappear it.

Just got back from Albuquerque not long ago. It's one of the better Interstate drives - I-25 is a north/south route and I don't think we passed a single semi in ~200 miles. All the truck traffic is going east/west around here I think.

The other oddity is that the speed limit is mostly 75. I put the cruise on 80 and wasn't passed much and only passed some members of the the RV and horsey crowd, pulling trailers. Did see one cop with someone pulled over, but it mostly has a Sunday drive feel to it. Going north last Thursday wasn't any more hectic.

driver100

stickguy said:

the insurance company isn't buying it. Just trolling around to find the lowest offer, so they could write driver a smaller check.

Exactly! They get a sleazy dealer who will leave some items out, so it looks like his price is lower....maybe some people fall for it, and they will get a minimum customer out of it. Probably treat you like garbage because it is a mini profit sale.

ab348

Up here we cannot throw any organic material like banana peels or watermelon rinds in the garbage. It has to go into a special green bin that has its own collection. The city allegedly makes compost out of it all, though from all reports it is pretty low quality and is unsaleable. I don't know what they do with it.

stever

We'd love that - I've gotten city made compost in five states since the 70s, always for free. The best came from Anchorage, of all places.

driver100

graphicguy said:

driver100 said:

Quick update from Bern Switzerland. Insurance company found a dealer who will sell me the same car for about $3000 less than my dealer.....so that is the amount they are offering. But it doesn't include technology package ($2600), which my last car had.
Have to fight it out, nothing comes easy.

Sleazy dealer with $3000 lower price does etching for $300! That turns me off right there.

Driver....that really irritates me. You pay insurance for just these types of situations. When it's time for THEM to pay out, they play these types of games.

Did you show them how the equipment levels don't match up? Why are they shopping for the replacement? You're the one who has to be happy with the car, not the insurance company!

GG, I got my salesman to show what options the tech package had, and what I wouldn't get on the 2017 compared to the 2015. There were 3 major items they want me to give up, one is 360 degree camera showing top view, another is adaptive high beams, another is active led high performance lighting. The 4th item I didn't have before is heads up display, which I don't really need.

I think they are counting on someone seeing a lower price of $4000 or $5000 and just going to the cheaper dealer.

I got the salesman to hi light the options I had on the 15 that won't be on the 17 if I take their deal....which I wont.

snakeweasel

imidazol97 said:

Aaaaah. The flaw in the need-for-speeders' logic. The purpose of a freeway is to move cars. The larger the total number of cars moved per hour the more effective it is. Reserving a lane for those who want to violate the law by speeding and cramming the remaining law-abiding traffic into the other lanes is wrong and contrary to the goal of moving the largest number of cars possible per hour during heavy flow periods.

When 3 lanes are used to move cars at say 1000 per hour per lane while the high speed lane moves 400 per hour for 1 lane gives a total of 3400 cars per hour for the 4 lanes. On the other hand let's postulate having all lanes move at a slower velocity than the speed of the preferred high speed lane: so we have 4 lane at 1000 cars per hour and we get 4000 people moving along the same stretch of highway with a lot less frustration for all because the right hand 3 lanes will be less densely populated than they are when crowded with the flotsam that the special drivers of speed from the speeding lane.

I've seen this first hand on interstates in cities where the HOV lane has a few people zooming by at 75 while the other lanes 3 or 4 are crowded and slowed because they are crowded with a high enough density that the speed slows from the 65 mph allowed on that stretch.

Actually there is a flaw in the logic however it's not what you make it out to be. How many cars can pass a point on a highway is more determined by the average distance between cars in time. As an example let us presume that drivers are following at an average of 2 seconds as suggested for a safe distance between cars. This means that a car will pass by every 2+ seconds (we have to account for the time it would take for the car to fully pass the point on the road). Now increasing speeds still means that there are two seconds (or whatever) between each car the time each car spends at that point is reduced as speed increases. So it does mean that increasing speed will increase the number of cars going by over a period of time the increases are very low. At highway speeds a 25% increase in speed only results in a 2% increase in the number of cars that go by.

The real flaw is that as you increase speed you have to increase distance between cars to retain the same level of safe following distance. Greater distance between cars means that the road can accommodate fewer cars. This means that feeder routes would have to be even more congested to allow for the lower rate of cars entering the highway. So any time saved in Andres plane would be eaten up getting to the faster road. It defeats the purpose of getting a balance of getting the greatest number of cars around in the shortest amount of time.

driver100

jmonroe said:

driver100 said:

Quick update from Bern Switzerland. Insurance company found a dealer who will sell me the same car for about $3000 less than my dealer.....so that is the amount they are offering. But it doesn't include technology package ($2600), which my last car had.
Have to fight it out, nothing comes easy.

Sleazy dealer with $3000 lower price does etching for $300! That turns me off right there.

Don't get excited until you talk to someone that has the authority to get to the bottom of this. It sounds like what you got was from a clerk at the office that saw a low number pop up from a search done by them or someone else that didn't do a proper search. I'm almost positive that your VIN will provide all the info required to get you a one for one replacement.

Don't let this spoil your vacation. BTW, I guess Mrs. driver is doing fine since you guys are on vacation and that in itself is a good thing to celebrate given the BIG hit your late car received.

One more thing, I don't really understand you Canadians. What's wrong, you don't get enough cold weather there in the late Summer so you have to go looking for it thousands of miles away? I'll say this though, you're going to really appreciate thawing out this Winter in Florida.

I know you'll let us know what happens when you get back home.

jmonroe

jm, it is actually hot in Switzerland, it has been in the mid to high 8th since we got here....very unusual. I had to run into Him to get some short sleeve Tee shirts, I brought mostly long sleeves.

The trip has been a nice break from all the insurance and accident stuff.

I am in communication with a retired very successful insurance agent and he is advising me. He is saying I should be getting an equivalent car....With the same options.

We will see what the insurance company comes up with..........to be cotinued.

jmonroe

stickguy said:

we just throw the rinds into the garbage. My wife actually just cuts it up right over the pail.

Mrs. j would have to do that too if we didn't have a high horse power disposal. Two more nice things with our disposal is that the garbage can doesn't smell and I don't have to carry out a heavy bag to the curb.

HP, it's all about HP. I shouldn't have to even say that on a car site.

jmonroe

snakeweasel

andres3 said:

You are forgetting that if speeders had their way you could cram 3,000 cars per hour in that one fast lane as long as people didn't get in the way.

Think of it as a High-Pressure lane. You can increase the water flow in a water line by increasing the pressure. Works the same with higher speeds. The water flow is equivalent to the amount of cars coming through.

It also works when you look at the time-use of the roadway. If everyone shortens their commute by 20% by speeding, everyone will notice the roadways are 20% more empty 20% more of the time.

If you can cram 3,000 cars per hour by speeding (btw to do that you have to be tailgating) you could also cram 3,000 cars per hour by doing a lot slower, see my post above).

As for the 20% comment, that only works if you have an open road with no obstacles (such as stop lights) and light traffic. In my commute speeding 20% faster would only shorten my commute by 0.8% (about 12 seconds over a 25 minute commute). The reason is that going 20% faster would only get me to the stop light 10 seconds faster which is used up by waiting at the stop light 10 seconds longer than if I haven't speed. The only time in my commute where speeding would actually shorten my time would be the last mile of my commute where I am usually not caught by red lights and the traffic waiting for the green light.

fintail

I'd fight back hard about keyless go and lighting package. Those were both must-haves when I chose my car. Don't take it.

Switzerland can be pretty warm at times. Heck, I was in Geneva last November during a warm spell, it was about 60F during the day then.

driver100 said:

GG, I got my salesman to show what options the tech package had, and what I wouldn't get on the 2017 compared to the 2015. I can't copy and paste on this stupid Galaxy tablet but there were 3 major items they want me to give up....One is keyless, another is superior headlights.

I think they are counting on someone seeing a lower price of $4000 or $5000 and just going to the cheaper dealer.

I got the salesman to hi light the options I had on the 15 that won't be on the 17 if I take their deal....which I wont.

snakeweasel

stever said:

What's a commute? One of those meatspace apps I read about now and then?

A reporter is working on a story about car shoppers who are only interested in buying cars that are made in the USA. If you're one of these shoppers, and you'd like to talk about your experience shopping for American-made vehicles, please reach out to PR @edmunds.com by no later than Thursday, September 15, 2016.

OK I have to ask, are they looking for people who buy cars made in the USA regardless of make or cars made by American companies regardless of where they are manufactured?

stickguy

roadburner said:

graphicguy said:

roadburner said:

@graphicguy: Remember that M235i convertible I posted for you back in August? Well, our current asking price is $7,651 under MSRP.
Just sayin'...

You are so evil on so many different levels.......

Can you re-post the link to the car's description? Wanna take a look at the equipment levels, again.

Beaurtiful car!

Here you go: 2016 M235i convertible

nice car. well equipped. still many many $ beyond would I would ever pay. Knock another 20K off, and I bet we can work out a lease!

oh, put some sidewall height back on it too. 225/40 ain't never gonna cut it driving on out Beirut roads. Actually, those are summer tires, another fail.

needs about a -1 or -2 on the wheels, then I could make it work!

Oh swap out the interior too. Black leather in a convertible? Insanity.

stever

snakeweasel said:

stever said:

What's a commute? One of those meatspace apps I read about now and then?

A reporter is working on a story about car shoppers who are only interested in buying cars that are made in the USA. If you're one of these shoppers, and you'd like to talk about your experience shopping for American-made vehicles, please reach out to PR @edmunds.com by no later than Thursday, September 15, 2016.

OK I have to ask, are they looking for people who buy cars made in the USA regardless of make or cars made by American companies regardless of where they are manufactured?

Don't ask me - we spent hours and hours back in the day debating "What Is an American Car". Good luck if you want to find something assembled in the US from US sourced parts and labor.

verdugo

stever said:

All that said we are looking at some tweaks, options and upgrades, hopefully in this quarter.

You do that and I'll pay all the dues I've not paid as protest.

stever

Careful what you wish for.

andres3

stickguy said:

the insurance company isn't buying it. Just trolling around to find the lowest offer, so they could write driver a smaller check.

This is a very interesting game the insurance company is playing. I should probably send you 2 or 3 of the boiler-plate letters the insurance company (Mercury) used to argue my diminished value case against me.

I relied heavily (but not fully) upon a Carmax quote to establish the S4's after-accident "current" value. They made arguments to the effect of:

1) Car Max doesn't represent the used car industry or market.
2) Car Max likes to buy low and sell high (who doesn't??? ).
3) Car Max is particularly harsh on accident damaged Audi's (who isn't? )

So when I present them a low value, they argue that the market would potentially be higher if I tried harder. Now that they are presented with a high value in your case, they argue that the market would potentially be lower if you tried harder. Seems like they argue both sides of a case depending on which one suits them that particular day with zero regard to ethics or honesty.

Looks like you have an easy solution, since the equipment options bring the two dealers within $600 just get your preferred dealer to go down $600.

andres3

You missed the point, traffic enforcement in the vast majority of this country is a joke. Outside of major holidays where there are historically more traffic accidents and/or impaired drivers it is a rare occurrence to see someone pulled over. Around here it is almost unheard of that someone gets pulled over for doing 5-10 MPH over the limit (although there are a small number of jurisdictions that will get you for anything over speed limit but it is well under 1%). Those people who you say have the "worthless jobs" are also the very same people that get the drunk drivers and reckless drivers off the road and adjudicate accidents. Are you suggesting that we don't go after them?

Again if it were the cash grab that many of you make it out to be there would be a lot more people pulled over. I know of some roads where they could put a toll booth in the middle of the road and give everyone a speeding ticket simply because everyone goes way over the speed limit on that road, yet I have never seen anyone pulled over and I drive down it a lot.

andres3 said:

The 85% rule is proven statistical science. There might not be a study for every single percentile number, but numerous studies have shown that 85% is the safest sweet spot vs. say 80 or 95%.

Actually it isn't, all those numerous studies puts that "safe sweet spot" between 50% and 90% which is hardly statistically sound. So why not 90% or 80% or 50%? It's an arbitrary number picked between those two numbers. Secondly the whole idea about the 85 percentile is that 85% of the drivers want to drive safe and not be in an accident. Does this mean that 15% of the drivers want to be in an accident? Don't you think that 100% of the drivers out there want to drive in a way where they don't get into an accident? I sure hope so, so why isn't it 100%?

Also please note that most traffic and road engineers will tell you that the 85 percentile is just a starting point and may be raised or lowered due to a multitude of conditions.

1) Their jobs wouldn't be so worthless if they served and protected rather than policed solely with the purpose of making a profit in mind. IF they spent a majority of their time actually policing relevant laws that affect public safety their worth would go up (drunk driving, reckless driving). They spend far too much time on speed, red light (right turns), stop sign (CA Stop), and not on things that actually increase hazard rates. How about this, a novel idea; tie violations to a safety hazard created, rather than just an arbitrary breaking of a "rule." Someone make a U-turn where they aren't supposed to causing someone else to hit their brakes hard; go ahead and throw the book at them; even put them in jail for a few weeks. Someone making a U-turn at 2:30 AM where they aren't supposed to without any other traffic within 300 yards, not so sure that's doing any good for society to write them a ticket. There are just too many "right of way" violations to waste time on "technicalities."

2) Lots of people are pulled over every day for speeding. It is a huge industry. Do you know how many tickets are written across the USA every day? It is substantial. Although I don't personally see it every week, I've seen it many many times over the years. I've never (not once) seen someone pulled over for left lane camping). I've never (not once) seen someone pulled over for cutting someone off dangerously (dangerous lane change). I've even witnessed some pour souls take the rap for speeding because they didn't have a radar detector and I did. Guess they should have invested in a radar detector. They do their enforcement in binges; trying to meet that end of month quota after a very lazy month of eating donuts all month. It is so easy to write tickets they probably can do it in one or two shifts for the month.

3) 15% of drivers don't "want to be in an accident." That's absurd, of course that's ridiculous. 15% is the statistical figure that takes out the "outliers" in society. You are always going to have a few oddball speed demons, and always going to have a few oddball slow pokes. Taking out 15% takes out those outliers. Sometimes people will just be in a real hurry. Sometimes people won't be paying any attention to their driving and let their speed inadvertently drop way below normal speed (even for them personally).

4) Your statement of taking into account "multitude of conditions" is just hogwash without scientific statistical basis. 85th percentile is objective, measurable, and verifiable. "Multitude of Conditions" is just when someone wants to arbitrarily make a subjective argument using nothing but Malarkey. I can make those arguments; I'll do so here: Speed limits ought not to be set depending on the 1 in a million time a deer is in the road. Even if a deer is on the road every 10,000 times a car goes by, that is too infrequent to set the speed limit by. Greater good for traffic flow trumps the deer. Set the speed limit at the maximum safe speed of travel for the very best cars built in today's age. Do you really want speed limits set subjectively? I think objective is the way to go; if someone wants to argue 80 is better than 85 or 90, let them prove it; otherwise, stand aside, step aside, and let the convention of objectivity rule.

The 1/6th and 1/8th accident rates were not pulled out of thin air by me. They are from the 2 most recent traffic and engineering surveys (for two different locations) I have needed to pull to defend myself against a speed trap type speeding citation. The survey shows the accident rate per million vehicle miles traveled for these roads. IT also lists what average is for similar types of roads. Simple math really. So much for the "we've had accidents here so were doing extra enforcement argument!!!" If it was one time maybe it would be a coincidence. Two times in a row in two areas where I've personally witnessed extraordinary amounts of speed enforcement, it's a proven fact they are policing for profit. A misapplication of government resources to the extreme degree. If these roads had 6 or 8 times the accident rates, I could understand devoting 6 or 8 times the normal police presence to them. Why it's is the opposite you can't answer.

There is a need for good police doing good productive work. We need them to be less lazy. We need them not to be all about revenue generation. We need them to improve their work. We need better police officers with better leadership; badly! We need their limited resources allocated in a more responsible manner independent of generating self-supporting revenue.

BIG IDEA - Have all traffic fine revenue go to other departments and industries not remotely associated with law enforcement or the judiciary branches of government. That would help solve this in a big way. Trying to argue it isn't all about the money is a big lie. If my big idea were implemented, policies on traffic enforcement would change dramatically overnight.

Another big idea - IF everyone suddenly fought all of their traffic tickets the system would crash. Currently a minuscule percentage of people actually resist their citations. I'd love to see a society where more traffic citations were contested.

andres3

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

You are forgetting that if speeders had their way you could cram 3,000 cars per hour in that one fast lane as long as people didn't get in the way.

Think of it as a High-Pressure lane. You can increase the water flow in a water line by increasing the pressure. Works the same with higher speeds. The water flow is equivalent to the amount of cars coming through.

It also works when you look at the time-use of the roadway. If everyone shortens their commute by 20% by speeding, everyone will notice the roadways are 20% more empty 20% more of the time.

If you can cram 3,000 cars per hour by speeding (btw to do that you have to be tailgating) you could also cram 3,000 cars per hour by doing a lot slower, see my post above).

As for the 20% comment, that only works if you have an open road with no obstacles (such as stop lights) and light traffic. In my commute speeding 20% faster would only shorten my commute by 0.8% (about 12 seconds over a 25 minute commute). The reason is that going 20% faster would only get me to the stop light 10 seconds faster which is used up by waiting at the stop light 10 seconds longer than if I haven't speed. The only time in my commute where speeding would actually shorten my time would be the last mile of my commute where I am usually not caught by red lights and the traffic waiting for the green light.

I've had commutes where everything goes right and my previous efforts to go faster the previous 10 minutes all led to making a yellow that just a few seconds slower would have prevented. That intersection might be a 5 minute intersection, and then I'd of missed the next green, and the next, and the next. I'll admit that sometimes it doesn't work and the cars I pass catch up to me at the intersection. When everything goes right you can experience time savings that are phenomenal. It can go exponential in the right direction when everything lines up.

andres3

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

I understand the frustration with traffic, but I think you unfairly put too much of the blame on people trying to get where they are going in the "fast lane" as you put it. However, if the 4 lanes don't progressively move faster as you move to each lane to the left, the problem is the impeders, not traffic and not speeders. The fact that all lanes move the same exact speed or often have the right lane faster than the left lane is frustrating to people that have somewhere to be (time is money).

An old boss once had a saying to people who rushed in to work late. He said "leave five minutes earlier. So if someone has to go faster to get somewhere then maybe they should practice better time management. Don't put my life in danger simply because you are late.

andres3 said:

I could maybe support your wish for stern enforcement of the speed limits if these things were given priority first:

1. Abolish left lane camping and impeders. Left lane for passing only. Slower traffic move right. Enforce that until we are like a 1st world country.
   
2. 
   
3. Abolish speed limits not justified by the 85th percentile (essentially set speed limits correctly).
   
4. 
   
5. Greater punishment and enforcement to distracted dangerous driving and people that actually cause accidents (and traffic via accidents).
   

I think there are much bigger fish to fry than speeders.

As for abolish speed limits, here is an great idea, post speed limits that reflect the design of the road. If 85% of the drivers were rational drivers we wouldn't have so many posts on this board.

As for greater punishment for people that actually cause accidents? I would rather see less accidents by aggressive punishments for activity that causes accidents.

Seems like our traffic enforcement isn't concentrating on the violations that cause accidents, as other (many) countries do far better at preventing accidents and death than the US does. You can thank our incompetent traffic enforcement LEO's for that; of course, most of them are only doing what they've been told/taught/trained to do. The problem is systemic and in-grained in the leadership.

Make me the head of the CHP; I guarantee positive results, BELIEVE ME!

andres3

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

I understand the frustration with traffic, but I think you unfairly put too much of the blame on people trying to get where they are going in the "fast lane" as you put it. However, if the 4 lanes don't progressively move faster as you move to each lane to the left, the problem is the impeders, not traffic and not speeders. The fact that all lanes move the same exact speed or often have the right lane faster than the left lane is frustrating to people that have somewhere to be (time is money).

An old boss once had a saying to people who rushed in to work late. He said "leave five minutes earlier. So if someone has to go faster to get somewhere then maybe they should practice better time management. Don't put my life in danger simply because you are late.

andres3 said:

I could maybe support your wish for stern enforcement of the speed limits if these things were given priority first:

1. Abolish left lane camping and impeders. Left lane for passing only. Slower traffic move right. Enforce that until we are like a 1st world country.
   
2. 
   
3. Abolish speed limits not justified by the 85th percentile (essentially set speed limits correctly).
   
4. 
   
5. Greater punishment and enforcement to distracted dangerous driving and people that actually cause accidents (and traffic via accidents).
   

I think there are much bigger fish to fry than speeders.

As for abolish speed limits, here is an great idea, post speed limits that reflect the design of the road. If 85% of the drivers were rational drivers we wouldn't have so many posts on this board.

As for greater punishment for people that actually cause accidents? I would rather see less accidents by aggressive punishments for activity that causes accidents.

Leaving 5 minutes earlier seems to be a moving target as LEO's concentrate on pointless violations rather than safety and smooth traffic flow enhancement. Soon we'll all be leaving 50 minutes earlier to go 5 miles.

andres3

stickguy said:

the insurance company isn't buying it. Just trolling around to find the lowest offer, so they could write driver a smaller check.

I would counter by finding a dealer that is EVEN MORE expensive than your preferred dealer, and showing them that their chosen dealer doesn't represent the new car market as they are a sample of one dealer.

Give them a taste of their own medicine!

andres3

Someone said how about enacting speed limits based on what the road was designed for; be careful what you wish for. Many engineers would agree our Interstates were designed to easily handle 100 MPH traffic. Now when traffic gets too heavy 100 MPH is obviously unrealistic, but that doesn't change the fact the road can support 100 MPH when not too many people are on it.

driver100

fintail said:

I'd fight back hard about keyless go and lighting package. Those were both must-haves when I chose my car. Don't take it.

Switzerland can be pretty warm at times. Heck, I was in Geneva last November during a warm spell, it was about 60F during the day then.

driver100 said:

GG, I got my salesman to show what options the tech package had, and what I wouldn't get on the 2017 compared to the 2015. I can't copy and paste on this stupid Galaxy tablet but there were 3 major items they want me to give up....One is keyless, another is superior headlights.

I think they are counting on someone seeing a lower price of $4000 or $5000 and just going to the cheaper dealer.

I got the salesman to hi light the options I had on the 15 that won't be on the 17 if I take their deal....which I wont.

Sorry fintail....I got it wrong and I blame it on my memory and trying to work on a Galaxy tablet. I changed it adaptive headlights, superior led headlights, and a camera that shows 360 degrees around the car. I agree, keyless is a necessity. My rentals didn't have it, and I would sit in the rental car and then realize I have to fish the key out of my pocket, then try to line it up with the key slot. Once you get used to something it is hard to go back.

snakeweasel

jmonroe said:

@imidazol97 said:

All of us may know someone who has a get-out-of-jail free card because of a law enforcement relative or political position relative.

And Mrs. j used that card one time back in the late '80's.

I was out of town for a week and I usually called home after I got to where I was going to let her know that I was still alive so I called the first night after I got back from dinner. She tells me she got a ticket for driving down a street to get to our house that has a sign that says, "No Thru Traffic". They have this posted so that people don't cut through this street to avoid having to go to the light less than one block further down the main road and then make the turn there. Everybody was aware of this and I heard a lot of complaints from people saying, "it must be nice to have your own private street. I pay the same in taxes as they do but I don't have a posted street". I had commented several times that I thought it was a valid restriction because otherwise that street would literally be a highway for all of the cars that would travel it to get to the many streets from it just so they could avoid the light.

The reason Mrs. j got her ticket is because she could see road work on the main drag close to the light and saw cars backing up so she made the left turn to go down this restricted street. Sure enough a cop parked in the driveway of a house about 20 houses down this street pulls her over. She told the cop why she did it but he didn't care just said something like "that is not an excuse for making that turn". As she is telling me about it I can tell that she is furious. I told her to talk to my Mother whose next door neighbors were the parents of a lieutenant on the local force to see if that ticket could be disposed of. The son, who we had met a few times, called Mrs. j the next day to hear her side of the story first hand and after hearing it said, "the guy who gave you the ticket is usually a pretty reasonable officer but every now and then he gets a hair up his xxx and can be a totally different person. Don't worry about the ticket, I have it in my hand and it's going into the can when we hang up".

Like you said, all of us know someone and the higher up they are the better.

jmonroe

I used to know two chief's of police, one was a drinking fishing buddy of mine who was the chief in the suburb right next to mine so I drove through his jurisdiction daily. The other was a drinking re-enacting buddy of my who was the chief in a town a little over an hour away from me and I was in his jurisdiction several times a year. I know that if I came to either one of them stating that one of their officers gave me a ticket I would have gotten "Good, thank you for letting me know that they're doing their job."

graphicguy

driver100 said:

jmonroe said:

driver100 said:

Quick update from Bern Switzerland. Insurance company found a dealer who will sell me the same car for about $3000 less than my dealer.....so that is the amount they are offering. But it doesn't include technology package ($2600), which my last car had.
Have to fight it out, nothing comes easy.

Sleazy dealer with $3000 lower price does etching for $300! That turns me off right there.

Don't get excited until you talk to someone that has the authority to get to the bottom of this. It sounds like what you got was from a clerk at the office that saw a low number pop up from a search done by them or someone else that didn't do a proper search. I'm almost positive that your VIN will provide all the info required to get you a one for one replacement.

Don't let this spoil your vacation. BTW, I guess Mrs. driver is doing fine since you guys are on vacation and that in itself is a good thing to celebrate given the BIG hit your late car received.

One more thing, I don't really understand you Canadians. What's wrong, you don't get enough cold weather there in the late Summer so you have to go looking for it thousands of miles away? I'll say this though, you're going to really appreciate thawing out this Winter in Florida.

I know you'll let us know what happens when you get back home.

jmonroe

jm, it is actually hot in Switzerland, it has been in the mid to high 8th since we got here....very unusual. I had to run into Him to get some short sleeve Tee shirts, I brought mostly long sleeves.

The trip has been a nice break from all the insurance and accident stuff.

I am in communication with a retired very successful insurance agent and he is advising me. He is saying I should be getting an equivalent car....With the same options.

We will see what the insurance company comes up with..........to be cotinued.

Whenever I've dealt with insurance companies on cars that have been totaled (which thankfully, was only 2, and I walked away from both accidents), they tried the same thing. Take a lower end car, or one with fewer options because it would be cheaper for them.

Fortunately, although my insurance never had to pay out, they went to bat for me. I had one agent tell me that the insurance company who was paying out once claim to me was hoping I didn't have anything else to drive and would settle for less once the rental contract expired.

As I told him...."this is the GG household they're talking about. We never have "only one car"!

nyccarguy

@driver100 - I was thinking of you yesterday. I saw a 2016 E400 4Matic Sport in white. I hope you'll be happy with the new one, the one you had was one sweet ride!

jmonroe

snakeweasel said:

jmonroe said:

@imidazol97 said:

All of us may know someone who has a get-out-of-jail free card because of a law enforcement relative or political position relative.

And Mrs. j used that card one time back in the late '80's.

I was out of town for a week and I usually called home after I got to where I was going to let her know that I was still alive so I called the first night after I got back from dinner. She tells me she got a ticket for driving down a street to get to our house that has a sign that says, "No Thru Traffic". They have this posted so that people don't cut through this street to avoid having to go to the light less than one block further down the main road and then make the turn there. Everybody was aware of this and I heard a lot of complaints from people saying, "it must be nice to have your own private street. I pay the same in taxes as they do but I don't have a posted street". I had commented several times that I thought it was a valid restriction because otherwise that street would literally be a highway for all of the cars that would travel it to get to the many streets from it just so they could avoid the light.

The reason Mrs. j got her ticket is because she could see road work on the main drag close to the light and saw cars backing up so she made the left turn to go down this restricted street. Sure enough a cop parked in the driveway of a house about 20 houses down this street pulls her over. She told the cop why she did it but he didn't care just said something like "that is not an excuse for making that turn". As she is telling me about it I can tell that she is furious. I told her to talk to my Mother whose next door neighbors were the parents of a lieutenant on the local force to see if that ticket could be disposed of. The son, who we had met a few times, called Mrs. j the next day to hear her side of the story first hand and after hearing it said, "the guy who gave you the ticket is usually a pretty reasonable officer but every now and then he gets a hair up his xxx and can be a totally different person. Don't worry about the ticket, I have it in my hand and it's going into the can when we hang up".

Like you said, all of us know someone and the higher up they are the better.

jmonroe

I used to know two chief's of police, one was a drinking fishing buddy of mine who was the chief in the suburb right next to mine so I drove through his jurisdiction daily. The other was a drinking re-enacting buddy of my who was the chief in a town a little over an hour away from me and I was in his jurisdiction several times a year. I know that if I came to either one of them stating that one of their officers gave me a ticket I would have gotten "Good, thank you for letting me know that they're doing their job."

That's the difference between knowing a chief and a lieutenant. A lieutenant would be more apt to help his drinking fishing buddy.

jmonroe

nyccarguy

I noticed the past couple of summers driving down south. There are many roads where the speed limit is 60, 65, & 70. I don't remember if I saw any 75 mph limits. I did notice that the majority of people weren't driving 80+ just because the speed limit was 70.

Normally I'll set my cruise at 70 when in CT, then Westchester County (speed limit 55). Once I cross into the 5 boroughs of NYC, I'll slow down to 60 (speed limit 50). For the most part on vacation, I set the cruise between 70 mph & 80 mph depending on the speed limit and the flow of traffic.

stickguy

Going to NC, a long stretch of I85 (Richmond to Durham) is 70. I still don't go above 74/75. There are a fair number of troopers along there (and great hiding places) and little traffic. Or civilization. I just like being able to go that speed, with pretty much no worries. I95 below DC a ways is 65, but traffic runs about the same 75ish max speed.

At this point, I'm more than fine keeping it to 75 or below. Relaxing! And in the NE corridor where I drive mostly, the roads or traffic rarely really support more. Even if some people try.

Might think differently if I was driving out west in the wide open spaces. Something that NYC to DC can be accused of being.

Michaell

stickguy said:

Going to NC, a long stretch of I85 (Richmond to Durham) is 70. I still don't go above 74/75. There are a fair number of troopers along there (and great hiding places) and little traffic. Or civilization. I just like being able to go that speed, with pretty much no worries. I95 below DC a ways is 65, but traffic runs about the same 75ish max speed.

At this point, I'm more than fine keeping it to 75 or below. Relaxing! And in the NE corridor where I drive mostly, the roads or traffic rarely really support more. Even if some people try.

Might think differently if I was driving out west in the wide open spaces. Something that NYC to DC can be accused of being.

Most of the interstates here in the west are signed at 75; 65 in urban areas. One exception is I-25 through Pueblo, which has a 55 limit. The highway through town is a bit narrow and the turns are a bit sharper and don't really allow the higher speeds.

On road trips, I'll set the cruise anywhere between 78-84 depending on traffic. The nice thing about the adaptive cruise in the Outback is that if traffic is moving slower, the car will adapt, and when the road is clear, it will return to the set speed I've chosen.

js06gv

Good timing for this discussion. Speed limit across a majority of Texas is now 75, on interstates and surprisingly on several secondary roads too. I guess I tend to get used to that, which is why I got popped for 75 in a 60 outside of OKC on the way to visit my daughter on Saturday. Early morning drive, was making great time and just not paying attention. Cop wrote it for "only 10 over."

My first ticket in a loooooong time, as I'm usually able to talk my way down to a warning but didn't even try this time. Was clearly too much of an infraction and I had nuthin'!

stever

Ouch. We like to think Texans speed a lot here too. Texans probably think the same thing when New Mexican's visit.

I have been surprised by the 75 limits on some of the two lane blacktops out in the boonies in Texas.

js06gv

@stever - I have been surprised by the 75 limits on some of the two lane blacktops out in the boonies in Texas.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I've got a heavy foot but a few of them even have me saying "really?"

stever

Driving some of those roads, I'd worry a bit about free-range cattle but I've yet to see a square foot outside of Big Bend in Texas that isn't fenced with no trespassing signs. Hitting an antelope would make your day though.

Eastern Oregon will drive you nuts though. Big empty, can see for miles on the straights, except you'll miss the trooper in the brush waiting to tag you for going over the 55 limit.

murphydog

Last Ghia update -

Looks like I finally found a buyer. Got a hit from the Craig's list ad Friday, she lives less than a mile from me and has always wanted a Karmann Ghia - "ever since I saw Pretty in Pink I have wanted a Karmann Ghia". She came over Sunday to look the car over. Fired it up, adjusted the seats and gave it a good look over. I answered a few questions and she says what is my bottom dollar. Mind you it was listed at $14,500, but at this point I am tired and want to move on so I say we could take $13K. She says deal!!!

I am a little surprised as she did not actually drive it yet. She knows air-cooled VWs as she has a 78 convertible bug that is in need of lots more work, and she has a shop nearby that she is comfortable using.

I am waiting for the $$ transfer to my savings account today, and she will be picking up tonight.

Net net - took a lot longer than I thought, and given the uniqueness of the car it was harder to market than I thought it would be. Still very surprised by the very few hits from Craig's list. Will pull down all three ads once the $$ is in my account.

Mr_Shiftright

stever said:

Driving some of those roads, I'd worry a bit about free-range cattle but I've yet to see a square foot outside of Big Bend in Texas that isn't fenced with no trespassing signs. Hitting an antelope would make your day though.

Eastern Oregon will drive you nuts though. Big empty, can see for miles on the straights, expect you'll miss the trooper in the brush waiting to tag you for going over the 55 limit.

What you don't want to hit is a full grown pig.

graphicguy

Murphy...congrats! Keeping my fingers crossed that the deal goes through without a hitch.

stickguy

js06gv said:

@stever - I have been surprised by the 75 limits on some of the two lane blacktops out in the boonies in Texas.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I've got a heavy foot but a few of them even have me saying "really?"

Dang. Maybe Andres should move to Texas.