Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

driver100

When we go to Vegas it is only as a quick getaway when a deal comes up. I see deals that include air and 3 nights in a top hotel on the strip for about $700. I don't like gambling, but I love seeing those magnificent buildings. And, I always think, look what man is capable of building, it is unbelievable.

And 3 nights would be about a maximum time I would spend there, we love even some of the smaller shows like Penn and Teller or the Elvis or Michael Jackson imitators. Lots to do and see, and it is fun to people watch, and see little old ladies running around trying to find a good slot machine.

Michaell

driver100 said:

When we go to Vegas it is only as a quick getaway when a deal comes up. I see deals that include air and 3 nights in a top hotel on the strip for about $700. I don't like gambling, but I love seeing those magnificent buildings. And, I always think, look what man is capable of building, it is unbelievable.

And 3 nights would be about a maximum time I would spend there, we love even some of the smaller shows like Penn and Teller or the Elvis or Michael Jackson imitators. Lots to do and see, and it is fun to people watch, and see little old ladies running around trying to find a good slot machine.

Yeah, when the wife and I go, we might drop $20 or so on gambling, but we'd always take in a show and do lots of people watching.

murphydog

fintail said:

I work in telecom, and over the years have had devices from every major product line. I think I had only one Blackberry - I remember the maps feature was ahead of the pack. It wasn't as slow as early Windows phones, and seemed to attract a devoted (mostly corporate) fanbase. Everyone has moved over to Android and Apple now. I still remember my first Android phone, it seemed like a revelation. I prefer it to Apple, more configurable, and the media playback options seem to work better for me.

ab348 said:

fin, are you in the Seattle? I am, and also in telecom? May I ask who you work for?

andres3

qbrozen said:

andres3 said:
 I believe the consensus conclusion was that only people that stuck their head in the sand ignored CR.
 

Just who is in this consensus? CR readers? I don't remember anyone asking me. CR polls CR subscribers, no? That alone skews their data. I ignore CR. Why? Because my cars are not just appliances to me. CR largely disregards the enthusiasts or those who care more about how a car feels and drives than how quick the touchscreen responds to my inputs to find the closest Starbucks. 

We have absolutely had issues with the accessories on our 2 Chryslers, but the wife won't accept an alternative because they are not as nice to drive, in her opinion. Again, more than a simple appliance.

I would say reliability is low on your list of priorities, so you can afford to ignore CR.

For those that have had a lemon before, the patience is either very thin or completely worn out for a clunker. I didn't see myself buying a Honda Accord of all things in the early 2000's, except it seemed like a good opposite to what Chrysler provided, which is exactly what I wanted at the time (the opposite kind of experience to owning a Chrysler product; in addition to something sporty, but at the time, that was lower on my list of priorities). Reliability went to number 1 importance at that time.

Now that I've had a few reliable cars in a row, I can venture out a bit more, and reliability is a little lower on the list of priorities; although still very high for me.

Also, the criticisms on the way they review cars in an appliance like manner (which is true; though they've gotten a lot better about that in recent years), doesn't in any way diminish the accuracy of their long term reliability data for all models. It seems to me the subscriber base has done a very honorable job of just reporting the facts, then CR tabulates and reports on the results. This unbiased method has a great tenacity and knack to hit the nail on the head. Remember, some subscriptions are bought as gifts (not self-purchased).

By the way, they've changed their graphical format with the recent issue, no more red and black dots. Green is good, yellow or orange is average, and red is bad.

Anyone here going to take their chances on a new Chrysler Pacifica?

stever

I haven't really trusted CR since they steered me wrong on a canoe back in 1974. I've relied much more on enthusiasts for advice since then (and that's a lot easier since the net came around).

Oh yeah, my latest ride is a Dodge.

Michaell

Anyone here going to take their chances on a new Chrysler Pacifica?

I've seen a few on the roads, and I find them quite handsome.

However, the wife is not a minivan person; never was. She drove SUVs for years - Expedition, Explorer, 2 VUEs, the CX-7 and now the Outback.

I do see the appeal of them, especially as I get older. But, there are lots of other choices now available that offer the benefits of a minivan (easy entry/exit specifically) but with a slightly smaller footprint.

In fact, the wife isn't terribly enamored of my new Jetta, as she has to "sit down" to get in and out. Not sure what I'll get in 3 years when my lease is up, but it may very well be something with a higher hip point.

Mr_Shiftright

stever said:

I haven't really trusted CR since they steered me wrong on a canoe back in 1974. I've relied much more on enthusiasts for advice since then (and that's a lot easier since the net came around).

Oh yeah, my latest ride is a Dodge.

Steve, that's a 42 year grudge. Time to let go, man

stever

Interestingly enough, that's how old my Volvo grudge is.

sda

Though I prefer driving a sedan, I do appreciate the higher seating position when I drive the Pilot. When travelling it is nice to be able to see over the guard rails and see the rivers, and landscape that I can't view when driving a car.

andres3

Michaell said:

Anyone here going to take their chances on a new Chrysler Pacifica?

I've seen a few on the roads, and I find them quite handsome.

However, the wife is not a minivan person; never was. She drove SUVs for years - Expedition, Explorer, 2 VUEs, the CX-7 and now the Outback.

I do see the appeal of them, especially as I get older. But, there are lots of other choices now available that offer the benefits of a minivan (easy entry/exit specifically) but with a slightly smaller footprint.

In fact, the wife isn't terribly enamored of my new Jetta, as she has to "sit down" to get in and out. Not sure what I'll get in 3 years when my lease is up, but it may very well be something with a higher hip point.

Have her get in and out of a Lotus a few times and she if she still complains about the Jetta's exit and entry.

Michaell

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

Anyone here going to take their chances on a new Chrysler Pacifica?

I've seen a few on the roads, and I find them quite handsome.

However, the wife is not a minivan person; never was. She drove SUVs for years - Expedition, Explorer, 2 VUEs, the CX-7 and now the Outback.

I do see the appeal of them, especially as I get older. But, there are lots of other choices now available that offer the benefits of a minivan (easy entry/exit specifically) but with a slightly smaller footprint.

In fact, the wife isn't terribly enamored of my new Jetta, as she has to "sit down" to get in and out. Not sure what I'll get in 3 years when my lease is up, but it may very well be something with a higher hip point.

Have her get in and out of a Lotus a few times and she if she still complains about the Jetta's exit and entry.

I don't even think she'd try that. If I can get her to accompany me on a trip to my HQ, many of the hotels I stay in are very close the McLaren dealer in Palo Alto. We could test-sit in those ....

snakeweasel

graphicguy said:

I know the two top dogs in smart phones are iPhone and Samsung Galaxy. I've always leaned towards iPhones, though. Several reasons, but probably the main one is everything I want to do with it...make calls, emails, GPS, texts, podcasts, music, etc, are very easy.

I find the Galaxy a slight bit easier to operate and easier to configure. The reason I got the Galaxy is that my iPhone, which was 4.5+/- years old was having issues with battery life (as any battery that old would have) so I went looking for a replacement battery. Unfortunately Apple doesn't trust you to change the battery, in order to get a new battery I would have had to spend about $50 or so and have it sent away so I would be without the phone for 4 or 5 days. Well at this time we were at Best Buy where they were having a special that I could get a Galaxy for $50 and my iPhone. No brainer there.

Now if I am in that position again all I have to do is get a $25-$30 battery and replace the old one with it.

Another issue I had with the iPhone was that I ran out of space on it. The Galaxy I was able to put in a mini SD card to greatly increase storage space. As a matter of fact everything on the phone is on the SD card so if I do get the newer Galaxy I will just switch the card to the new one and easily move all my apps, music and such.

snakeweasel

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

Well, there are failures, and then there are defects. Failing to do any sort of quality control at any stage of the manufacturing process seems to be Chrysler's MO.

Lets see in my life I had a Coronet with a slant 6, couldn't kill that car even though I tried. Two Omni's (one a GLH and man that was a fun car) only one didn't make it past 50K miles and that was only because some idiot made a left turn in front of me. A caravan that we got rid of after 80K miles only because the kids grew up and we didn't need a mini van anymore. We bought a neon for the kids when they were in school, bought it used and had no real issues with it. My current ride is a Sebring with over 110K miles on it and has been pretty reliable. I know plenty of people with Chrysler products that have had no real issues with them so I would suspect that your claims are not what you make them to be.

andres3 said:

That leads to lemons and issues at 6K miles or less you won't often find from serious un-bailed out automakers.

Yeah like my coworker whose cars engine blew at 5K miles...oops that was an Audi. Or a friends car whose transmission started acting up at less than 1K miles and they could never get it right...oops another Audi. Or my neighbor whose transmission fell, yes actually fell, with less then 15 miles (not 15K just 15) on the clock...oops that was a Honda. My sisters truck that went in for some engine issue every other month....but that was a Toyota.

Truth be told if I were not to drive a make because someone I knew had issues with it I would be walking everywhere.

andres3 said:

By and large it seems complicated products with good quality design and control seem to vastly outperform simple designs with the lack of QC. The simplicity of Chrysler using 3-speed automatics in the 90's didn't spare them any black dots in CR.

Interesting I had an early 90's Chrysler with more than three speeds.

Plus CR is meaningless as we discussed before.

Actually your anecdotal stories are meaningless.

As are yours.

As for CR we went over the issues with them before, maybe you should search the forum for them.

andres3 said:

I find that the people that defend Chrysler are usually the same ones that can live with all the accessories not working in their car (power windows, doors, radio, AC, all non-functioning), yet they still drive around and say the car is flawless. Meanwhile if you ride in it you'll hear 1,000 rattles, and notice the paint color mismatching wear on the bumpers or elsewhere.

Never had an issue with any on the accessories not working, FWIW one worked a little to well for me today.

snakeweasel

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

Ahhh... the X1 rentals get driven on the railroad tracks just as often as the 300 rentals. It is just the design quality and durability of the car that changes the impact and results of that action.

But you all know I won't hesitate to twist the knife in a little deeper when Chrysler problems are reported.

Interesting since there are people on this forum that have said that they wouldn't own a German luxury car outside a warranty.

First, those are people that are living in the 20th Century still. Also, Mercedes and BMW (and even VW) seem to be lagging in the reliability and durability departments as far as improvements in the last decade or so. They should take lessons from Audi.

Those people are posting (or have posted) in this forum (or the old SFTSFL forum) in the past 10 years

andres3 said:

Second, they probably are buying more car than they can properly afford if repair costs are an issue.

It's not as much the cost but the frequency of repairs.

andres3 said:

Finally, those people probably don't have access to a decently honest, competent, and lower cost independent mechanic/shop that specializes in the German car of their choice at a convenient location to where they live and work.

What color is the sky in your world? Here on earth independent mechanics/shops that specialize in high end German cars are not lower cost and the low cost mechanics/shops that will repair them also repair all makes.

snakeweasel

qbrozen said:

andres3 said:
 I believe the consensus conclusion was that only people that stuck their head in the sand ignored CR.
 

Just who is in this consensus? CR readers? I don't remember anyone asking me. CR polls CR subscribers, no? That alone skews their data. I ignore CR. Why? Because my cars are not just appliances to me. CR largely disregards the enthusiasts or those who care more about how a car feels and drives than how quick the touchscreen responds to my inputs to find the closest Starbucks. 

We have absolutely had issues with the accessories on our 2 Chryslers, but the wife won't accept an alternative because they are not as nice to drive, in her opinion. Again, more than a simple appliance.

You have hit on a big issue with CR, there is a strong sample bias not to mention self reporting bias.

snakeweasel

Mr_Shiftright said:

stever said:

I haven't really trusted CR since they steered me wrong on a canoe back in 1974. I've relied much more on enthusiasts for advice since then (and that's a lot easier since the net came around).

Oh yeah, my latest ride is a Dodge.

Steve, that's a 42 year grudge. Time to let go, man

For me it's been about 32 years, but for me it is more of a trust issue.

stever

I like 'em for another data point along with JD Power and WarrantyWeek. But for the real scoop you need to find the true believers and most of them are posting somewhere online these days.

Truth is, most all brands are pretty good these days and in the last two years I've seen everything from Porsches to Hondas (presumably) broken down on the side of the road. I think we have more cars sitting on Interstate shoulders per mile than any other state.

driver100

Michaell said:

driver100 said:

When we go to Vegas it is only as a quick getaway when a deal comes up. I see deals that include air and 3 nights in a top hotel on the strip for about $700. I don't like gambling, but I love seeing those magnificent buildings. And, I always think, look what man is capable of building, it is unbelievable.

And 3 nights would be about a maximum time I would spend there, we love even some of the smaller shows like Penn and Teller or the Elvis or Michael Jackson imitators. Lots to do and see, and it is fun to people watch, and see little old ladies running around trying to find a good slot machine.

Yeah, when the wife and I go, we might drop $20 or so on gambling, but we'd always take in a show and do lots of people watching.

That's the most I would bet. And if by some lucky chance I get ahead, say I win $10, I only bet away $5, so I can come out and tell everyone I am a winner!

The tendency is to win and then throw it away...that is what the casinos count on. Easy come - easy go!

driver100

Michaell said:

Anyone here going to take their chances on a new Chrysler Pacifica?

In fact, the wife isn't terribly enamored of my new Jetta, as she has to "sit down" to get in and out. Not sure what I'll get in 3 years when my lease is up, but it may very well be something with a higher hip point.

In about 3 years one of these should be ready to buy. 2020 VW electric car:


Supposed to be under $30k and go 375 miles on a charge. Hope they don't cheat on their omissions testing

driver100

stever said:

Interestingly enough, that's how old my Volvo grudge is.

Our Volvo grudge goes back to 1995. A Volvo that would stall for no apparent reason in any place, and 3 different dealers and a head office technician couldn't make it work. There was a case where a lease was perfect, they took it back before the lease was over...with a penalty, worth it just to get rid of it.

Michaell

driver100 said:

Michaell said:

driver100 said:

When we go to Vegas it is only as a quick getaway when a deal comes up. I see deals that include air and 3 nights in a top hotel on the strip for about $700. I don't like gambling, but I love seeing those magnificent buildings. And, I always think, look what man is capable of building, it is unbelievable.

And 3 nights would be about a maximum time I would spend there, we love even some of the smaller shows like Penn and Teller or the Elvis or Michael Jackson imitators. Lots to do and see, and it is fun to people watch, and see little old ladies running around trying to find a good slot machine.

Yeah, when the wife and I go, we might drop $20 or so on gambling, but we'd always take in a show and do lots of people watching.

That's the most I would bet. And if by some lucky chance I get ahead, say I win $10, I only bet away $5, so I can come out and tell everyone I am a winner!

The tendency is to win and then throw it away...that is what the casinos count on. Easy come - easy go!

I'll play roulette, where I can control the odds of what I'm betting (red/black, even/odd, row or column). But, I'll always play 22 straight up (wife's birth day). I was at a riverboat casino in Dubuque, IA years ago and hit it twice in something like 5 or 6 spins. Wasn't a lot of money, but I took it and walked away.

Tried blackjack once in Atlantic City. Lost $50 in about 15 minutes - no mas.

And, took a lesson at Bally's in Vegas on how to play craps. Even though they slowed the action down, I still didn't quite understand it.

Wife will drop $10 on slots from time to time.

We have low stakes gambling in some of our old mining towns here in Colorado - and, they just added table games in the past few years.

Have never been to one of those casinos.

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

Michaell said:

Anyone here going to take their chances on a new Chrysler Pacifica?

In fact, the wife isn't terribly enamored of my new Jetta, as she has to "sit down" to get in and out. Not sure what I'll get in 3 years when my lease is up, but it may very well be something with a higher hip point.

In about 3 years one of these should be ready to buy. 2020 VW electric car:


Supposed to be under $30k and go 375 miles on a charge. Hope they don't cheat on their omissions testing

Sub $30K and a 375 mile charge in 3 years? I seriously doubt that.

stever

The Chevy Bolt will cost $37,500 (or $30,500 if you get the tax credit). The range is 217 miles highway, and 255 city. It's due out this year. (HybridCars.com)

So three years may be too little too late.

oldfarmer50

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

Well, there are failures, and then there are defects. Failing to do any sort of quality control at any stage of the manufacturing process seems to be Chrysler's MO.

Lets see in my life I had a Coronet with a slant 6, couldn't kill that car even though I tried. Two Omni's (one a GLH and man that was a fun car) only one didn't make it past 50K miles and that was only because some idiot made a left turn in front of me. A caravan that we got rid of after 80K miles only because the kids grew up and we didn't need a mini van anymore. We bought a neon for the kids when they were in school, bought it used and had no real issues with it. My current ride is a Sebring with over 110K miles on it and has been pretty reliable. I know plenty of people with Chrysler products that have had no real issues with them so I would suspect that your claims are not what you make them to be.

andres3 said:

That leads to lemons and issues at 6K miles or less you won't often find from serious un-bailed out automakers.

Yeah like my coworker whose cars engine blew at 5K miles...oops that was an Audi. Or a friends car whose transmission started acting up at less than 1K miles and they could never get it right...oops another Audi. Or my neighbor whose transmission fell, yes actually fell, with less then 15 miles (not 15K just 15) on the clock...oops that was a Honda. My sisters truck that went in for some engine issue every other month....but that was a Toyota.

Truth be told if I were not to drive a make because someone I knew had issues with it I would be walking everywhere.

andres3 said:

By and large it seems complicated products with good quality design and control seem to vastly outperform simple designs with the lack of QC. The simplicity of Chrysler using 3-speed automatics in the 90's didn't spare them any black dots in CR.

Interesting I had an early 90's Chrysler with more than three speeds.

Plus CR is meaningless as we discussed before.

Actually your anecdotal stories are meaningless.

CR has thousands of data points making it highly accurate and reliable data. I believe the consensus conclusion was that only people that stuck their head in the sand ignored CR.

Truth be told CR didn't like the reliability of my '06 A3 all that much, but I guess I got one of the good ones and proper maintenance doesn't hurt. However, in the modern era of the last few years, Audi is surpassing pretty much everyone when it comes to durability and reliability. Honda is having some issues (along with Acura). Toyota/Lexus are always pretty much bulletproof.

I have anecdotal stories too, one of my best friends RAV 4 experience mirrors exactly what CR says about it; that you can depend on it.

Chrysler may have had a 4-speed auto in the 90's but they didn't use it on the Neon in the mid-90's.

How do you explain Chrysler's problem with plummeting resale values, poor sales figures, and weak results in any reliability survey that exists in the world? Why didn't the "lifetime *********************" warranty last very long? Why have they changed the name of their models every decade or less? Why haven't they sent me one single warranty "extension/reimbursement" letter as a form of goodwill?

I got a recall/warranty/reimbursement letter on the Audi S4 the other day that I don't even own any more for some minor possible emissions related issue with the CEL light going on for no good reason.

I find that the people that defend Chrysler are usually the same ones that can live with all the accessories not working in their car (power windows, doors, radio, AC, all non-functioning), yet they still drive around and say the car is flawless. Meanwhile if you ride in it you'll hear 1,000 rattles, and notice the paint color mismatching wear on the bumpers or elsewhere.

This was fun to find:

Looks better than most cars I've owned.

oldfarmer50

stever said:

I haven't really trusted CR since they steered me wrong on a canoe back in 1974. I've relied much more on enthusiasts for advice since then (and that's a lot easier since the net came around).

Oh yeah, my latest ride is a Dodge.

That reminded me about my 86 Toyota which I choose over Nissan, Isuzu and Mitsubishi because of CR reviews. What a pile.

fordfool

> You have hit on a big issue with CR, there is a strong sample bias not to mention self reporting bias.

There definitely is a reader bias with CR, but I'd rather trust CR than
a magazine that earns its income from the companies that it reports on.

dino001

Some dealers never seem to learn...
I put my name on a Honda website for new Civic hatchback updates. So few weeks later a salesman calls me for business. I nicely say not now and we part ways. Next day another salesman from the same dealer calls me. So I say now and please you are second one. Today I get a call again, this time a lady. This time I unload on her. I get it's not her fault, but I lost my patience. This is not acceptable to pass a number to all people in your business and let them badger people at will. So I went on the website and sent a message to the owner.

snakeweasel

stever said:

The Chevy Bolt will cost $37,500 (or $30,500 if you get the tax credit). The range is 217 miles highway, and 255 city. It's due out this year. (HybridCars.com)

So three years may be too little too late.

The thing about that tax credit is that it's a nonrefundable credit and that it doesn't carry forward. Most middle class families wouldn't get the full credit.

stickguy

I just started getting contacted on the Civic hatch this week too. I forgot I put in the request. A couple emails, and the salesguy I usually deal with called today. I actually answered and chatted with him, knowing that I would stop getting bothered. Did learn they got a few on the lot now. And gave him grief for Honda not following through on the rumors, so no stick on an EX trim level! He actually agreed with me about that.

dino001

stickguy said:

I actually answered and chatted with him, knowing that I would stop getting bothered.

I did that, too with the first guy. Didn't help.

snakeweasel

dino001 said:

Some dealers never seem to learn...
I put my name on a Honda website for new Civic hatchback updates. So few weeks later a salesman calls me for business. I nicely say not now and we part ways. Next day another salesman from the same dealer calls me. So I say now and please you are second one. Today I get a call again, this time a lady. This time I unload on her. I get it's not her fault, but I lost my patience. This is not acceptable to pass a number to all people in your business and let them badger people at will. So I went on the website and sent a message to the owner.

That's why I don't like to give out my number. Gotta love auto reject.

ab348

The blue tires on that electric VW might be rather expensive to replace.

stickguy

Well, most calls home never get answered anyway. Caller ID is a wonderful thing!

stever

Anyone see any Civic Hatchbacks in stock anywhere? They were supposed to be at the dealers this week.

stickguy

my dealer said they got 4 in Monday. stashed on the back lot. So they are filtering in, at least in NJ!

not sure if they are trying to hide them for some kind of big reveal.

stever

Honda sent out press kits for the "Monday" unveiling. I just screwed up reading it - it's next Monday, not last Monday.

stickguy

I will still look, not having driven the Civic CVT, but I am still mad at them for not coming through and offering the stick on EX trim or above.

karhill1

We visited Hawaii in June, Maui. Overall, we were not impressed. Nice island but far, far too many tourists. Rained every day in the interior of the island.

I bet Hawaii was really a paradise back in the 40s and 50s.

As they say, call a place paradise, kiss it goodbye.

For many reasons, we prefer one of the smaller Caribbean islands. Smaller resorts and less people. Islands like Antigua, Saint John, or Anguilla.

Saint John is a particularly enjoyable island. Mostly a state park, limited hotels, no cruise ships, and numerous beaches some so remote there may be no other person on the beach. Even driving on Saint John is a lot of fun.

Cruising? No thanks. Been on one, that was enough. Line up for this, line up for that. Be back at a certain time or see ya.

graphicguy

dino001 said:

Some dealers never seem to learn...
I put my name on a Honda website for new Civic hatchback updates. So few weeks later a salesman calls me for business. I nicely say not now and we part ways. Next day another salesman from the same dealer calls me. So I say now and please you are second one. Today I get a call again, this time a lady. This time I unload on her. I get it's not her fault, but I lost my patience. This is not acceptable to pass a number to all people in your business and let them badger people at will. So I went on the website and sent a message to the owner.

That bugs me, too. MAnufacturers still have a long way to go if they want to really mine the ability to disseminate information about their products via the WEB.

Flip side of that, when I was looking around, kicking tires, thinking about buying a muscle car, you'd think I was a leper. I went to the local Dodge dealer to look at a Challenger Scat Pack. They had it listed on their site as a manual. It was an automatic. Sales person tried to get me interested in the auto, but had one manual inbound in a few days that fit what I was looking for. I told him I was very intersted and to give me a call when it came in. Heard nothing. Called him a couple of weeks later inquiring about the Challenger again. Got his voice mail, left a message....never heard from him again.

Looked at a Camaro SS at the local Chevy dealer. Again...all automatics on the lot. Salesman found about 6 at other dealerships that he could swap an auto for, given the automatics were way more popular than the manuals. Swapping should be no issue according to him. Again, no follow up whatsoever on the status of getting what I wanted.

The one Mustang GT I was looking at (and came close to buying) was held by the dealer for a week when I told them I might be interested, as it was about an hour away. Very cordial. Easy to do business with. Wasn't concerned about me committing to it. Told him I couldn't get to him until the weekend. He had it shiny and ready to test drive when I got there. Granted, I'm sure if someone walked in and wanted to buy it, I would have been SOL. But, at least they made an effort.

Two things I learned....

1) selling a manual transmission anything is difficult for dealers as fewer and fewer people know how to drive them. Therefore, they don't put many on the lot. In the case of the Mustang, the salesman actually admitted he had to get a lot boy to pull it from the back lot as he didn't know how to drive a manual trans car.

2) No wonder the vast majority of car sales people don't last long. They can't sell anything if someone just doesn't fall into their laps waiting to drive that new car home when they walk in to the dealership.

graphicguy

stickguy said:

I will still look, not having driven the Civic CVT, but I am still mad at them for not coming through and offering the stick on EX trim or above.

My son was interested in the "new" Civic hatches with the new turbo motors when he was shopping (and ended up buying the GTI). His issue...the way he wanted one equipped only came with the CVT. That was a deal breaker.

driver100

karhill1 said:

We visited Hawaii in June, Maui. Overall, we were not impressed. Nice island but far, far too many tourists. Rained every day in the interior of the island.

Cruising? No thanks. Been on one, that was enough. Line up for this, line up for that. Be back at a certain time or see ya.

Talked to a guy who went to Costa Rica...it was his dream fantasy vacation. Came upon a secluded beach....went in, enjoyed it for about 4 minutes before being bitten by a sting ray.

Got carried to the local doctor who's office was a small shack. Didn't feel very well for a few days and came back early.

He said, his first clue should have been when he saw the beach was secluded....he should have known there was a reason.

driver100

GG, I think part of the problem could be salesmen don't make much per car any more. Just not worth it to them, unless they are pretty ambitious, to make a file and match a car to a perspective buyer. They just want the quick easy sale, and then they can try to make another one as fast and easy as possible.

Since less than 5% of the cars sold are manuals, and since most young people don't bother to learn how to drive one, the odds of finding one are pretty slim. By the time you put one on the lot, wait for the right customer, who will take it in that color with that equipment, it is just too risky. Cute though that the salesman has to have the car jockey bring it out.

dino001

graphicguy said:

That bugs me, too. MAnufacturers still have a long way to go if they want to really mine the ability to disseminate information about their products via the WEB.

I actually did check the box allowing a dealer to contact me (I know, big mistake), but I never in my dreams imagined it will be every saleperson in the showroom calling me day after day. It just shows me that place has no standards of business conduct. Even if I were interested in a Honda now, I would be hesitant to go there.

dino001

The manual tranny is a feedback loop. Few people are interested, hence few manufacturers and dealers will take a risk on making/ordering one, hence those interested can't even check it out and settle for automatics, hence even fewer people will buy next cycle, hence even fewer manufacturers/dealers will take risk, hence...

It's truly sad, when majority of "sports cars" (all types, from sporty sedans to true performance vehicles) are sold in autos and not even stocked by dealers. BMW, which used to sell relatively large (to their peers) percentage number of manuals in their 3-series derivatives, seems to have given up on manuals, too. You can have one, if you really insist, but it's going to be only very narrow sliver of models. Not available with this, that and the other thing. My wagon may be one of couple of manuals sold that year, today you wouldn't be able to get one, even if wanted to. I'm resigned to having an auto as my next vehicle. There is probably one manual transmission car I'm remotely interested in, it's Mini Cooper S Clubman. But I think I'll still go for 430 or 440 Grand Coupe with of course auto (no manuals available).

oldfarmer50

dino001 said:

Some dealers never seem to learn...
I put my name on a Honda website for new Civic hatchback updates. So few weeks later a salesman calls me for business. I nicely say not now and we part ways. Next day another salesman from the same dealer calls me. So I say now and please you are second one. Today I get a call again, this time a lady. This time I unload on her. I get it's not her fault, but I lost my patience. This is not acceptable to pass a number to all people in your business and let them badger people at will. So I went on the website and sent a message to the owner.

I can almost guarantee that the owner put them up to it. Bet he chewed them out at the sales meeting for not making calls off whatever list you were on. Since salespeople are in competition with each other, one wouldn't tell the others if he had already contacted you.

dino001

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

Some dealers never seem to learn...
I put my name on a Honda website for new Civic hatchback updates. So few weeks later a salesman calls me for business. I nicely say not now and we part ways. Next day another salesman from the same dealer calls me. So I say now and please you are second one. Today I get a call again, this time a lady. This time I unload on her. I get it's not her fault, but I lost my patience. This is not acceptable to pass a number to all people in your business and let them badger people at will. So I went on the website and sent a message to the owner.

I can almost guarantee that the owner put them up to it. Bet he chewed them out at the sales meeting for not making calls off whatever list you were on. Since salespeople are in competition with each other, one wouldn't tell the others if he had already contacted you.

I agree - that's why I left an angry message on his "talk to the owner" site.

It's a ridiculous approach to business. If he thinks he did any favors to image of his company, he's mistaken. Car dealers don't have high image as it is, but practices like those only reinforce that low image. It's curious I never experience this kind of s...t when dealing with upscale brands, or more "family style" dealers, like local Subaru store.

Will see if he even responds.

nelsonf

dino001 said:

The manual tranny is a feedback loop. Few people are interested, hence few manufacturers and dealers will take a risk on making/ordering one, hence those interested can't even check it out and settle for automatics, hence even fewer people will buy next cycle, hence even fewer manufacturers/dealers will take risk, hence...

It's truly sad, when majority of "sports cars" (all types, from sporty sedans to true performance vehicles) are sold in autos and not even stocked by dealers. BMW, which used to sell relatively large (to their peers) percentage number of manuals in their 3-series derivatives, seems to have given up on manuals, too. You can have one, if you really insist, but it's going to be only very narrow sliver of models. Not available with this, that and the other thing. My wagon may be one of couple of manuals sold that year, today you wouldn't be able to get one, even if wanted to. I'm resigned to having an auto as my next vehicle. There is probably one manual transmission car I'm remotely interested in, it's Mini Cooper S Clubman. But I think I'll still go for 430 or 440 Grand Coupe with of course auto (no manuals available).

The M4 I'm picking up tomorrow has a manual. I tried to find one in Seattle, but couldn't, so I ended up ordering one from an out of state dealer. They had an allocation, and let me spec it out how I wanted.

Dual clutch autos shift faster than you can shift in a manual, but it's not as fun!

ab348

graphicguy said:

1) selling a manual transmission anything is difficult for dealers as fewer and fewer people know how to drive them. Therefore, they don't put many on the lot. In the case of the Mustang, the salesman actually admitted he had to get a lot boy to pull it from the back lot as he didn't know how to drive a manual trans car.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but on this point - up here almost all the Mustang GTs on dealer lots are manuals. It is actually quite hard to find an automatic in stock. That means 1 of 2 things I guess: either all the automatics sell quickly and leave none in stock, or that manuals are what is preferred in this market.

ab348

stever said:

Anyone see any Civic Hatchbacks in stock anywhere? They were supposed to be at the dealers this week.

All I have seen so far are pictures of the thing. Ugly as sin IMO but will probably sell like crazy.

Michaell

Several years ago, I test drove both a Mustang GT and a Camaro SS that had manual transmissions. Didn't pay attention to the ratio of automatics to manuals with the V8 engine.

My guess is that if someone wanted a stick with their muscle car, it wouldn't be hard to get one. Of course, Denver is a pretty big market.