Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

driver100

jmonroe said:

driver100 said:

sda said:

driver100 said:

Speaking about older cars and car geniuses a friend happened to send me this review of a Studebaker Avanti. If you have 10 minutes to kill it is extremely interesting just how advanced this car was. I really like the styling with the little rise on the hood that goes right back to the instrument cluster.
https://youtu.be/AnynfKKwE3Y

Driver100--please post on the Postwar Studebaker forum. I know uplanderguy will like to see this along with the others following this forum.

Consider it done!
Glad you guys liked it, I didn't know if 10 minutes would be too long, but, I figured you are a pretty bright group with long attention spans.

Not me. I check out after 2 minutes of reading a post or watching an attached flic.

jmonroe

Short attention span problem...I taught kids like that. But you can sure write a long post. Try to shorten them up...just the facts ma'm or sir!

driver100

uplanderguy said:

driver100, the C-pillar in the Sceptre hardtop is polarized glass, and the front light is a Sylvania light bar set up. Pretty cool. I'm thinking the left side is trimmed differently, for comparison purchases.

There is a black four-door version with 'suicide' doors, and also a white Wagonaire version, at the museum.

Uplander, if this is the 4 door version I am not crazy about it....too radical;


It has houdini's vertical rear window though.....that's what helped to ruined it.

But, the wagon looks pretty nice;


I thought this was the 4 door version but then I see on the link it is an amc Cavalier...this would have made a nice 4 door version:


Polarized roof panel and light bar sound really nice.

driver100

jmonroe said:

driver100 said:

ab348 said:

houdini1 said:

I wonder what that Avanti would have looked like if the rear window was more vertical, giving it a more squared off roof line and a longer rear deck. It had already been done on the early 60's Mercury.

Interesting article here about the design process of the Avanti:

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hcc/2006/01/Designing-the-Fabulous-Avanti/1281806.html

Another one with some sketches of Avanti and other Studie ideas:

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/index.php/2007/05/20/sia-flashback-more-stude-studies/

If they had hung on a while longer, they could have introduced this as their Hawk replacement:

That is my kind of design. Large windows, low rear deck, large wide hood, I even like the chrome strips along the edges of the hood. I'd take that design over 75% of the cars I see being made today.

If you say so, but before I'd buy the one pictured, they'd have to rub out a few of those dull spots on that hood.

jmonroe

The hood looks pretty shiny to me...I think before you buy one you need a paisley shirt and a big belt buckle belt like the guy in the picture.

jmonroe

driver100 said:

uplanderguy said:

But, the wagon looks pretty nice;

I don't think so but if you like it so much you can request it for your LAST ride.

Maybe that's why I don't like it so much.

jmonroe

andres3

oldfarmer50 said:

Random question.

In California does a private car seller have to provide some proof that the used car will pass emissions inspection? Here in NY it's all on the buyer and other than having a CEL on (which some crooked sellers disable) there is no way to know that a car might not pass when inspected. The CA model seems better if I'm understanding it correctly. Less chance of funny business.

Last I heard, the seller is supposed to smog the car they have for sale, and then you have 90 days to sell it or you have to re-smog it!

roadburner

I always liked Frua's GT4 concept- based on the 2002:

uplanderguy

That is the black sedan I've seen. That one pic of the Sceptre turned into a two-door wagon looks like it might be photoshop to me. Here's the white version that's at the Studebaker National Museum:

http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/1960s-studebaker-concept-cars-1.jpg.jpg

driver100

uplanderguy said:

That is the black sedan I've seen. That one pic of the Sceptre turned into a two-door wagon looks like it might be photoshop to me. Here's the white version that's at the Studebaker National Museum:

http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/1960s-studebaker-concept-cars-1.jpg.jpg

That looks more like a Lark wagon....was there ever a Lark wagon?

imidazol97

uplanderguy

There were Lark wagons every year of its production run, '59-66. There were two-door wagons in '59-61; four-door from '60 to '66. The sliding roof wagon (green '63 above) was in production from '63-66. A fixed-roof wagon was also available for $100 less.

When GM did its sliding-roof Envoy some time back, they actually requested Wagonaire blueprints from the Studebaker National Museum archives. I thought that was interesting.

You could get those Studebaker 'sliders' with supercharger, disc brakes, 4-speed, Twin Traction (think Positraction), bucket seats, in-dash tach, and other performance stuff.

BTW, mentioned earlier, but here's an Avanti production order showing the "Silent Muffler" option, LOL:

http://billstudepage.homestead.com/files/pjavantipo.jpg

murphydog

Good morning all - I thought I would share 2 observations I made yesterday when driving my car. I have a 2008 C-350 that I purchased new and now has 53K miles. I am still on the original battery and brake pads! I am not worried about the brakes as there is a wear sensor that will trigger a light on the dash and disc brakes are so easy to change, but I do wonder about the battery and if it is going to leave me stranded sometime soon. So far no indication that it is getting weak in the knees, during the extended cold snap over the first half of the month it always started up with no hesitation.

Anyway almost 10 years old and I still love to drive it!

Happy Monday!

andres3

murphydog said:

Good morning all - I thought I would share 2 observations I made yesterday when driving my car. I have a 2008 C-350 that I purchased new and now has 53K miles. I am still on the original battery and brake pads! I am not worried about the brakes as there is a wear sensor that will trigger a light on the dash and disc brakes are so easy to change, but I do wonder about the battery and if it is going to leave me stranded sometime soon. So far no indication that it is getting weak in the knees, during the extended cold snap over the first half of the month it always started up with no hesitation.

Anyway almost 10 years old and I still love to drive it!

Happy Monday!

I had a E350 rental a few years ago, and I liked that drive-train a lot. I can see why those looking for luxury would choose a car like that.

However, for me, the pre '12 or is it ('13 when they improved?) C-class interiors didn't do anything for me.

imidazol97

Since you are attuned to the sound of the starter when it's starting the engine, if you notice a slowdown in the cranking that's often the signal to just change the battery for a new one.

Something I've done is leave the lights on while I'm waiting for someone for the ten minutes or so. Then listen to whether the cranking strength of the starter sounds weaker or slower. Most batteries I've had died during the summer. Another technique is to measure the amperage supply at Walmart or another big box store. That measures the reserve ability of the plates in the battery which is what I was doing by leaving the lights on to drain the battery slightly.

uplanderguy

I owned two Chevy Cobalts, one built in April 2008 and the other in November 2008. Both showed no signs whatsoever of battery issues when starting, and I replaced the original batteries before this winter, just to be sure. I'd probably have the battery tested--usually a chain auto parts store will do that for you free and show you the results.

stickguy

My Acura dealer does it every service visit, and gives you the results slip. Nice touch.

murphydog

andres3 said:

murphydog said:

Good morning all - I thought I would share 2 observations I made yesterday when driving my car. I have a 2008 C-350 that I purchased new and now has 53K miles. I am still on the original battery and brake pads! I am not worried about the brakes as there is a wear sensor that will trigger a light on the dash and disc brakes are so easy to change, but I do wonder about the battery and if it is going to leave me stranded sometime soon. So far no indication that it is getting weak in the knees, during the extended cold snap over the first half of the month it always started up with no hesitation.

Anyway almost 10 years old and I still love to drive it!

Happy Monday!

I had a E350 rental a few years ago, and I liked that drive-train a lot. I can see why those looking for luxury would choose a car like that.

However, for me, the pre '12 or is it ('13 when they improved?) C-class interiors didn't do anything for me.

I agree, the updated interior is better than my current car, but not enough for me to make jump. I think my next ride will be a convertible. I really like the AMG C 43 drop top - but it is way out of my current car budget, even if I do keep it for 10 years....

PF_Flyer

murphydog said:

Good morning all - I thought I would share 2 observations I made yesterday when driving my car. I have a 2008 C-350 that I purchased new and now has 53K miles. I am still on the original battery and brake pads! I am not worried about the brakes as there is a wear sensor that will trigger a light on the dash and disc brakes are so easy to change, but I do wonder about the battery and if it is going to leave me stranded sometime soon. So far no indication that it is getting weak in the knees, during the extended cold snap over the first half of the month it always started up with no hesitation.

Anyway almost 10 years old and I still love to drive it!

Happy Monday!

Well, at least you're on alert about your battery and not letting it sneak up on you. You could have a garage test your battery, just to see if there's anything to your worry. I had a battery go about 10 years once before I replaced it. Same deal, no real indication that anything was going wrong, but so far past the expected life that I figured it was time for a new one to avoid a surprise stranding

Mr_Shiftright

ab348 said:

Watched the "Wheeler Dealers: Trading Up" episodes on the weekend. I think they did more than one set of these - this one had Mike starting in India, then segments in the UK, Sweden, Japan, Mexico/Western USA, and finally Dubai, flipping cars in each place to build up a bankroll to buy a "supercar" at the end. These have just Mike, no Edd.

I was surprised how much I enjoyed them. It gave a nice snapshot of what car culture was like in places like India, Sweden, Japan, Mexico and Dubai, which I had little knowledge of. It wasn't all roses for him reither, as he sold a car in Sweden that he unknowingly misrepresented as to the engine size and had to refund some of the money, and lost money on a dud Celica he bought in Japan. In the end he accumulated enough in profit to buy his "supercar", which was a bit of a stretch, but it was an early 2000s 911 Carrera in what I thought was a not particularly attractive color combo, but whatever, he seemed to get a good deal on it. Fun to watch.

Hardly a supercar--you can buy them now for $15K here in the states, due to the bad reputation.

tjc78

My 2004 Grand Marquis was on the original battery for over 11 years and 95K. It finally gave up the ghost on a 5 degree morning. In all fairness I knew it was getting close, as two mornings before it cranked a little slowly.

isellhondas

I don't mess with car batteries! If they are five years old and I get the slightest indication something is wrong I replace it on MY terms rather than getting stuck somewhere!

andres3

The Neon used to eat batteries up like they were nothing. Chrysler built-in so many electrical shorts, corroding/disintegrating parts and terminals that it would just be a constant drain that batteries hated. I used countless warranties for new batteries, and learned the lesson that most battery warranties are lousy pro-rated policies that don't save you much.

sda

Though the Honda dealer checks the battery at each service, I still had the unfortunate experience of sudden or catastrophic battery failure in our '09 Civic at about 4 years and my '13 Accord a little over 3 years. There was no indication something was wrong, just all the sudden 'click, click, click'. The Civic died at the grocery store and someone was nice enough to jump start me, the Accord in our garage, which I jump started from the Pilot.

roadburner

Ten years for most any battery is pushing it; my experience with BMW batteries is that they work flawlessly until they don't. That is, they crank fine and then one day you turn the key/push the start button and nothing- not even a click from the solenoid.

imidazol97

Re: 10 years. If Mr. MurphyDog's car is garaged and he's in a mild climate, his battery may go further still timewise. But I'm with Isell that it's likely to one day have sulfated and will give a hard failure.

Now I have to treat batteries like I do tires: getting that last 10% of life out of them can be problematic. A high percentage of punctures occur in the last 10% or so of life. Replacing tires at about 75% worn saves hydroplanning on water or worse here on slush at the wrong time due to shallow tread grooves. The only way I'd wear tires lower is if I'm selling the car and the low tread won't hurt the value.

A second question is whether it can be replaced by just anyone or does it have to be replaced by a place with the right software tools to reset the charge and drain software?

Mr_Shiftright

Depends on the manufacturer. I know BMW and Mercedes requires computerized battery registration, which is another clever way of milking you for another $100 bucks or so, even though the procedure takes about as much time as drinking a cup of coffee.

driver100

imidazol97 said:

Guess there was...I don't think I ever actually ever saw one before. That open roof concept is like the one GM used a few years ago in one of their SUVs....comes in handy if you are taking a fridge home from the store.

abacomike

Re: car batteries...It is not the cold weather that causes them to "exhaust" their power, it's hot weather that does it. When I lived in Palm Desert (near Palm Springs), I drove a 1991 300E Sedan in Smoke Silver and beige interior. It was a leased vehicle - 60 month lease and I actually kept that car until the 60 months were up - a record for me.

I changed the battery in that car 4 times - 14-18 months is all I ever got out of a battery. I was using Interstate Batteries as replacement - one of the best on the market at the time. In the summers, the desert floor would hit 110-114 degrees F. We had hot temps from April through November, but June, July, August and September were the worst months. Invariably these batteries would go bad during the summer months. I would get in the car, turn the ignition key, and nothing - not even a dome light would work.

Tires didn't last very long either with those hot asphalt roads with sand all over the place.

Did I mind having to change tires and batteries frequently - of course - but if I wanted to continue living in the desert I had to "go with the flow" so to speak. It "was what it was!"

driver100

murphydog said:

Good morning all - I thought I would share 2 observations I made yesterday when driving my car. I have a 2008 C-350 that I purchased new and now has 53K miles. I am still on the original battery and brake pads! I am not worried about the brakes as there is a wear sensor that will trigger a light on the dash and disc brakes are so easy to change, but I do wonder about the battery and if it is going to leave me stranded sometime soon. So far no indication that it is getting weak in the knees, during the extended cold snap over the first half of the month it always started up with no hesitation.

Anyway almost 10 years old and I still love to drive it!

Happy Monday!

They say replace batteries every 5 years or so so you won't get stranded. It may be different in Florida where the weather doesn't get cold enough to zap it of it's power. Personally, I think you got your use out of it, and if you are keeping the car murph, may as well make sure you won't get stranded.

I like those 2008 C350s, and an old Mercedes always drives well.....and is enjoyable to drive.

I got a warning that the battery power in my key is low...replace battery. That warning gives you time, but a dead battery just when you need it isn't nice...for the cost, better to do it while you can.

abacomike

Mr_Shiftright said:

Depends on the manufacturer. I know BMW and Mercedes requires computerized battery registration, which is another clever way of milking you for another $100 bucks or so, even though the procedure takes about as much time as drinking a cup of coffee.

Good grief! You mean I have to go through a procedure to have a new battery put in my car? I'm done with procedures - if the battery dies, it dies - may it rest in peace - I'm not going to go through a procedure with the darn thing!

stickguy

my Hondas (Accord and Odyssey) both had lousy OEM batteries that did not last all that long (4 years max, one might have been 3).

one problem is that sometimes it is not a gradual fade out that gets you (so you get warning). Rather, something just lets go internally (I guess a cell failing) and you go from good to dead like flipping a switch. No real way to predict that.

abacomike

On my way home from the mall this morning, I decided I wanted to get a car wash. I did not feel like driving 30 miles to my dealership to get a car wash, so I was looking for an automated one or one that does hand washing. For the life of me, I could not find one within a reasonable driving distance from my complex. I did have it washed at one about 5 miles away three weeks ago, but they make you stay in the car during the wash - $19 for just an exterior car wash. For the entire car (exterior and interior) they wanted $30.00. For that much money, I could live without the interior wash.

I always get concerned about the wheels getting scraped like they did on one of my E400's - but those wheels stuck out more than the wheels I have on this car. I just have to find a guy who comes to your house to wash the car and do the interior - but they have to do it in the guest parking lot - not allowed to wash your car in our parking lot in front of the building.

berri

When I lived in Florida, the heat and humidity chewed up car batteries, while the roads ate tires. But everyplace has its pros and cons. No snow, no income taxes!

fintail

E350 from 2012+ has 302hp, I think. It's an easygoing engine, but no slouch if you push it.

2012 was also the year for the C-class interior upgrade, with a dash style similar to the E.

Re: batteries - My E55 was 11 years old when I sold it, still on its original battery. The fintail, which has a generator rather than alternator, seems to average about 7 years on a battery - the last one was still OK at 7 years old, but lots of cranking due to a failed cold start solenoid pushed it over the edge. Current battery is from 2014 and cranks like new.

andres3 said:

I had a E350 rental a few years ago, and I liked that drive-train a lot. I can see why those looking for luxury would choose a car like that.

However, for me, the pre '12 or is it ('13 when they improved?) C-class interiors didn't do anything for me.

jmonroe

uplanderguy said:

I owned two Chevy Cobalts, one built in April 2008 and the other in November 2008. Both showed no signs whatsoever of battery issues when starting, and I replaced the original batteries before this winter, just to be sure. I'd probably have the battery tested--usually a chain auto parts store will do that for you free and show you the results.

There have been several comments about batteries, now it's my turn. I'm not arguing with you about having your battery tested at an auto parts store because that can be beneficial but it is not foolproof.

Now my story: (@driver100, this may be beyond your patience for post reading so now is a good time to scroll)

After work one day, in the summer of 2011, Mrs. j's 2005 XG350 (yes, the one that blew an engine) would not start (no sounds at all). She calls me at work and I tell her to call AAA. The guy runs a test and says, "you have a bad cell (more about this later. I'm telling you @driver100 now is the time to scroll, don't say I didn't warn you). I can sell you a battery if you want". Mrs. j calls me about this pitch and I told her to get it jumped and drive directly home. Don't go shopping.

When I get home the car is in the driveway. I get in and expect nothing. Wrong, the car starts right up, no problem whatsoever. I go to Advance Auto Parts and the guy runs a test and says, "there is nothing wrong with this battery but it is getting a little old". FWIW his printout is the same as the guy's from AAA. Same format exactly and I show it to the guy at Advance. All he can say is his test says the battery in not bad. Which is what I expected him to say.

I now go to Autozone for another test hoping they have a different tester and they do. The Autozone test also says my battery is good. Now what do I do?. I went home and cleaned the battery terminals although they were not corroded in the least.

Fast forward about 2 weeks and the same thing happens to Mrs. j's car. She again gets it jumped and goes directly home, no shopping. When I get home, again it starts right up but now I'm a little smarter. I go to Advance and buy a new battery and I bought their best one. It had a 6 year warranty with a full replacement for the first 3 years then pro-rated after that. A lot of good that did me, the car blew up in November of 2011. :@

Now about the dead cell thingy: (this is for everybody except @driver100 because he is long gone by now).

It is IMPOSSIBLE to do a terminal to terminal test of a battery and say, "a cell is bad". If a battery tests bad with a terminal to terminal test, all the tester can truthfully say is the battery is bad. It cannot say a cell is bad because batteries today do not have the individual cell connecting straps accessible to check each cell individually. I guess the battery tester feels it has to say something so it says, "bad cell", when in truth, ALL of the cells are probably degrading due to age. Batteries for many years now have sealed tops with only the positive and negative terminals accessible. I'll bet @Mr_Shiftright, @imidazol97, @isellhondas and some other old coots in here, remember the old style heavy lead individual cell connecting straps that were visible on the tops of batteries many years ago.

So, where am I going with all of this? Just what @isellhondas said. When batteries get up in years maybe around 6 years old, and this is just a little experience talking here, they should be replaced before they fail at the worst possible time.

Just an interesting comment, I don't why the newer batteries don't seem to give a warning like the old batteries did when they got old but mine have not. Mine just QUIT. I even loaded down a battery like @imidazol97 suggested and that still has not helped me.

Like I said, a battery test is not foolproof and I learned that the hard way.

I tried to keep this post short. Didn't use big words, kept to the point (could have gotten deeper about this), but even I can only do so much.

EDIT: As I was typing this post, Mrs. j wanted me to do something and when I got back to the keyboard I just continued with my post. I didn't look at all the subsequent posts that pretty much I agree with what I just said. Nice to know misery loves company. Should have known we are all peas in the same pod.

jmonroe

murphydog

I am in agreement on proactively replacing the battery - bonus check arrive in April and the plan is new tires for the wife's X3 and new battery for my car. Should be good till the annual oil change in September.

thebean

jmonroe said:

I owned two Chevy Cobalts, one built in April 2008 and the other in November 2008. Both showed no signs whatsoever of battery issues when starting, and I replaced the original batteries before this winter, just to be sure. I'd probably have the battery tested--usually a chain auto parts store will do that for you free and show you the results.

There have been several comments about batteries, now it's my turn. I'm not arguing with you about having your battery tested at an auto parts store because that can be beneficial but it is not foolproof. Now my story: (@driver100, this may be beyond your patience for post reading so now is a good time to scroll) After work one day, in the summer of 2011, Mrs. j's 2005 XG350 (yes, the one that blew an engine) would not start (no sounds at all). She calls me at work and I tell her to call AAA. The guy runs a test and says, "you have a bad cell (more about this later. I'm telling you @driver100 now is the time to scroll, don't say I didn't warn you). I can sell you a battery if you want". Mrs. j calls me about this pitch and I told her to get it jumped and drive directly home. Don't go shopping. When I get home the car is in the driveway. I get in and expect nothing. Wrong, the car starts right up, no problem whatsoever. I go to Advance Auto Parts and the guy runs a test and says, "there is nothing wrong with this battery but it is getting a little old". FWIW his printout is the same as the guy's from AAA. Same format exactly and I show it to the guy at Advance. All he can say is his test says the battery in not bad. Which is what I expected him to say. I now go to Autozone for another test hoping they have a different tester and they do. The Autozone test also says my battery is good. Now what do I do?. I went home and cleaned the battery terminals although they were not corroded in the least. Fast forward about 2 weeks and the same thing happens to Mrs. j's car. She again gets it jumped and goes directly home, no shopping. When I get home, again it starts right up but now I'm a little smarter. I go to Advance and buy a new battery and I bought their best one. It had a 6 year warranty with a full replacement for the first 3 years then pro-rated after that. A lot of good that did me, the car blew up in November of 2011. :@ Now about the dead cell thingy: (this is for everybody except @driver100 because he is long gone by now). It is IMPOSSIBLE to do a terminal to terminal test of a battery and say, "a cell is bad". If a battery tests bad with a terminal to terminal test, all the tester can truthfully say is the battery is bad. It cannot say a cell is bad because batteries today do not have the individual cell connecting straps accessible to check each cell individually. I guess the battery tester feels it has to say something so it says, "bad cell", when in truth, ALL of the cells are probably degrading due to age. Batteries for many years now have sealed tops with only the positive and negative terminals accessible. I'll bet @Mr_Shiftright, @imidazol97, @isellhondas and some other old coots in here, remember the old style heavy lead individual cell connecting straps that were visible on the tops of batteries many years ago. So, where am I going with all of this? Just what @isellhondas said. When batteries get up in years maybe around 6 years old, and this is just a little experience talking here, they should be replaced before they fail at the worst possible time. Just an interesting comment, I don't why the newer batteries don't seem to give a warning like the old batteries did when they got old but mine have not. Mine just QUIT. I even loaded down a battery like @imidazol97 suggested and that still has not helped me. Like I said, a battery test is not foolproof and I learned that the hard way. I tried to keep this post short. Didn't use big words, kept to the point (could have gotten deeper about this), but even I can only do so much. jmonroe

Wow, that was a long way to go for such a skimpy payoff.  I wish I had quit when Driver did.  

jmonroe

thebean said:

jmonroe said:

uplanderguy said:

I owned two Chevy Cobalts, one built in April 2008 and the other in November 2008. Both showed no signs whatsoever of battery issues when starting, and I replaced the original batteries before this winter, just to be sure. I'd probably have the battery tested--usually a chain auto parts store will do that for you free and show you the results.

There have been several comments about batteries, now it's my turn. I'm not arguing with you about having your battery tested at an auto parts store because that can be beneficial but it is not foolproof.

Now my story: (@driver100, this may be beyond your patience for post reading so now is a good time to scroll)

After work one day, in the summer of 2011, Mrs. j's 2005 XG350 (yes, the one that blew an engine) would not start (no sounds at all). She calls me at work and I tell her to call AAA. The guy runs a test and says, "you have a bad cell (more about this later. I'm telling you @driver100 now is the time to scroll, don't say I didn't warn you). I can sell you a battery if you want". Mrs. j calls me about this pitch and I told her to get it jumped and drive directly home. Don't go shopping.

When I get home the car is in the driveway. I get in and expect nothing. Wrong, the car starts right up, no problem whatsoever. I go to Advance Auto Parts and the guy runs a test and says, "there is nothing wrong with this battery but it is getting a little old". FWIW his printout is the same as the guy's from AAA. Same format exactly and I show it to the guy at Advance. All he can say is his test says the battery in not bad. Which is what I expected him to say.

I now go to Autozone for another test hoping they have a different tester and they do. The Autozone test also says my battery is good. Now what do I do?. I went home and cleaned the battery terminals although they were not corroded in the least.

Fast forward about 2 weeks and the same thing happens to Mrs. j's car. She again gets it jumped and goes directly home, no shopping. When I get home, again it starts right up but now I'm a little smarter. I go to Advance and buy a new battery and I bought their best one. It had a 6 year warranty with a full replacement for the first 3 years then pro-rated after that. A lot of good that did me, the car blew up in November of 2011. :@

Now about the dead cell thingy: (this is for everybody except @driver100 because he is long gone by now).

It is IMPOSSIBLE to do a terminal to terminal test of a battery and say, "a cell is bad". If a battery tests bad with a terminal to terminal test, all the tester can truthfully say is the battery is bad. It cannot say a cell is bad because batteries today do not have the individual cell connecting straps accessible to check each cell individually. I guess the battery tester feels it has to say something so it says, "bad cell", when in truth, ALL of the cells are probably degrading due to age. Batteries for many years now have sealed tops with only the positive and negative terminals accessible. I'll bet @Mr_Shiftright, @imidazol97, @isellhondas and some other old coots in here, remember the old style heavy lead individual cell connecting straps that were visible on the tops of batteries many years ago.

So, where am I going with all of this? Just what @isellhondas said. When batteries get up in years maybe around 6 years old, and this is just a little experience talking here, they should be replaced before they fail at the worst possible time.

Just an interesting comment, I don't why the newer batteries don't seem to give a warning like the old batteries did when they got old but mine have not. Mine just QUIT. I even loaded down a battery like @imidazol97 suggested and that still has not helped me.

Like I said, a battery test is not foolproof and I learned that the hard way.

I tried to keep this post short. Didn't use big words, kept to the point (could have gotten deeper about this), but even I can only do so much.

jmonroe

Wow, that was a long way to go for such a skimpy payoff.  I wish I had quit when Driver did.  

Sorry for the disappointing finish. Now look at my EDIT, that makes it even worser

jmonroe

imidazol97

jmonroe said:

There have been several comments about batteries, now it's my turn. I'm not arguing with you about having your battery tested at an auto parts store because that can be beneficial but it is not foolproof.

Now my story: (@driver100, this may be beyond your patience for post reading so now is a good time to scroll)
jmonroe

I read it all. I agree with your strategy of buying Autozones best battery because of the 3/3 guarantee and they were made by Johnson Controls. The proof of purchase is kept in their computer by phone number. So no looking up receipts that get lost. And they put your battery in for you, in most cases.

Each cell produces 2.1 v. So if one cell shorts, the voltage drops from 12.6 nominal voltage to 10.5 e.g.. A single cell can short via sulfation which is bridging of the two types of plates by a whisker or crystal of material built up as the battery recharges. That whisker can break and the cell act perfectly normal again. However, the sulfation results in a 10.5 volt battery minus any drop in voltage from the other 5 cells due to age or undercharge. It should not give a totally dead battery. The interior light should glow for example. But some computers won't operate below a certain voltage so the control that allows the starter motor relay to operate may not work because the battery voltage is low. Hence no sounds. But there should be some things that operate.

Mr_Shiftright

abacomike said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Depends on the manufacturer. I know BMW and Mercedes requires computerized battery registration, which is another clever way of milking you for another $100 bucks or so, even though the procedure takes about as much time as drinking a cup of coffee.

Good grief! You mean I have to go through a procedure to have a new battery put in my car? I'm done with procedures - if the battery dies, it dies - may it rest in peace - I'm not going to go through a procedure with the darn thing!

You don't really have much choice in the matter I'm afraid.

suydam

The battery in my Pontiac Vibe lasted 8 years but when it died all of a sudden I was STUCK. Fortunately not too bad a place or time. I should have replaced it at the 5 or 6 year mark. I only had it another couple of years after that anyway.

jmonroe

abacomike said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Depends on the manufacturer. I know BMW and Mercedes requires computerized battery registration, which is another clever way of milking you for another $100 bucks or so, even though the procedure takes about as much time as drinking a cup of coffee.

Good grief! You mean I have to go through a procedure to have a new battery put in my car? I'm done with procedures - if the battery dies, it dies - may it rest in peace - I'm not going to go through a procedure with the darn thing!

Hey Mike.

You like to talk to your car, ask it if that is true or an unban legend. Better listen to what it says.

jmonroe

abacomike

jmonroe said:

abacomike said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Depends on the manufacturer. I know BMW and Mercedes requires computerized battery registration, which is another clever way of milking you for another $100 bucks or so, even though the procedure takes about as much time as drinking a cup of coffee.

Good grief! You mean I have to go through a procedure to have a new battery put in my car? I'm done with procedures - if the battery dies, it dies - may it rest in peace - I'm not going to go through a procedure with the darn thing!

Hey Mike.

You like to talk to your car, ask it if that is true or an unban legend. Better listen to what it says.

jmonroe

I did just what you asked me to do - I talked to my car - but then I forgot that my car talks "dirty" to me every so often - in a sort of stoic German accent that puts shivers up and down my spine. I wonder if I asked my BMW where Mengela is and if he is still experimenting on children what the response would be? Maybe, "...be careful vat you vish for, vee have openings in our laboratory for heart, liver and diabetes patients - vant to give it a try...? I swear, I have no control over the voices that come out of German manufactured vehicles - it's hopeless!

henryn

Mr_Shiftright said:

Depends on the manufacturer. I know BMW and Mercedes requires computerized battery registration, which is another clever way of milking you for another $100 bucks or so, even though the procedure takes about as much time as drinking a cup of coffee.

Reminded me of a battle I'm facing right now. I just purchased, about 2 weeks ago, a used 2016 Chrysler Town and Country. And I only received one key. So I do some reading in various places, the dealer wants about $300 for a new key with programming. So I look on yelp for "auto locksmith". One wants $260, another one won't give me a quote until he comes out to my house for $20 service charge, and the third one never returns my call.

Next step, look on ebay and amazon. Keys (complete programmable key fob) costs $10 out of China, or about $40 from here in the USA, reputable seller, with 99% + favorable feedback. Back to the forums, more reading, one person says they bought a key on Ebay, the dealer programmed it for $50. Another person with same experience, dealer charged him $75.

Good enough, I order the key, comes in, looks good, start calling dealerships. The 3 closest Mopar dealers all want exactly the same amount, $165. I'm assuming the book shows one hour, and they are all charging $165 per flat rate hour.

I would expect that it takes about 60 seconds to program the key, and maybe 5 minutes total by the time you get out the "tool" and set it up.

abacomike

Mr_Shiftright said:

abacomike said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Depends on the manufacturer. I know BMW and Mercedes requires computerized battery registration, which is another clever way of milking you for another $100 bucks or so, even though the procedure takes about as much time as drinking a cup of coffee.

Good grief! You mean I have to go through a procedure to have a new battery put in my car? I'm done with procedures - if the battery dies, it dies - may it rest in peace - I'm not going to go through a procedure with the darn thing!

You don't really have much choice in the matter I'm afraid.

Shifty, I was just referring to the fact that I've had enough procedures lately (stent placement in my right coronary artery, heel pain when I walk and the shot of cortisone, the liver resection, the infection I sustained requiring readmission to Boca Regional Hospital's ICU, to name a few). I've had enough to last me a lifetime. Now, I have to go back to the podiatrist on Wednesday for another injection into my right heel. It just never seems to end.

henryn

Car batteries have 6 cells (wet cell battery == 2 volts per cell, versus dry cell battery == 1.5 volts per cell).

In order to get 12 volts, the 6 cells have to be connected in series. And the internal connectors seem to be what fails. Going back a number of years, the chemicals in the battery would go bad or wear out or "get sulfated" or whatever. But these days, batteries die when the internal connectors between cells give out. Which is why they tend to die suddenly, without giving any warning.

At least that's what I have read. Don't we have any electrical engineers in here who can give us the skinny? Or is it all lawyers and retired judges and CPA's and book sellers and car salesmen?

jmonroe

imidazol97 said:

jmonroe said:

There have been several comments about batteries, now it's my turn. I'm not arguing with you about having your battery tested at an auto parts store because that can be beneficial but it is not foolproof.

Now my story: (@driver100, this may be beyond your patience for post reading so now is a good time to scroll)
jmonroe

I read it all. I agree with your strategy of buying Autozones best battery because of the 3/3 guarantee and they were made by Johnson Controls. The proof of purchase is kept in their computer by phone number. So no looking up receipts that get lost. And they put your battery in for you, in most cases.

Each cell produces 2.1 v. So if one cell shorts, the voltage drops from 12.6 nominal voltage to 10.5 e.g.. A single cell can short via sulfation which is bridging of the two types of plates by a whisker or crystal of material built up as the battery recharges. That whisker can break and the cell act perfectly normal again. However, the sulfation results in a 10.5 volt battery minus any drop in voltage from the other 5 cells due to age or undercharge. It should not give a totally dead battery. The interior light should glow for example. But some computers won't operate below a certain voltage so the control that allows the starter motor relay to operate may not work because the battery voltage is low. Hence no sounds. But there should be some things that operate.

What you say is correct (computer shuts down everything at a given drop in total voltage) but a tester that does not check each cell individually cannot cart blanche say a cell is bad. It is more likely to be degradation of ALL cells on an old/older battery.

jmonroe

abacomike

henryn said:

Car batteries have 6 cells (wet cell battery == 2 volts per cell, versus dry cell battery == 1.5 volts per cell).

In order to get 12 volts, the 6 cells have to be connected in series. And the internal connectors seem to be what fails. Going back a number of years, the chemicals in the battery would go bad or wear out or "get sulfated" or whatever. But these days, batteries die when the internal connectors between cells give out. Which is why they tend to die suddenly, without giving any warning.

At least that's what I have read. Don't we have any electrical engineers in here who can give us the skinny? Or is it all lawyers and retired judges and CPA's and book sellers and car salesmen?

Series sounds reasonable - but I'm just a Retired School Administrator and in my second life a Car Salesman and Manager - what do I know?

sda

stickguy said:

my Hondas (Accord and Odyssey) both had lousy OEM batteries that did not last all that long (4 years max, one might have been 3).

one problem is that sometimes it is not a gradual fade out that gets you (so you get warning). Rather, something just lets go internally (I guess a cell failing) and you go from good to dead like flipping a switch. No real way to predict that.

That has been my experience as well. Battery lasted 4 years on the Civic and 3 on the Accord. No warning at all with the Civic. Started up just fine and went to Publix. Came back less than 10 min later and it hardly made a clicking noise when I tried to start it. I hadn't started the Accord for about 3 days and it cranked slowly, started, stalled (a first) and then was completely dead. I had to pry the cover near the shifter off so I could stick a key and manually override the Park lock out to get the car in neutral. I drafted my wife to help push it out of the garage so I could position the Pilot to jump it off. Fun times!

jmonroe

abacomike said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

abacomike said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Depends on the manufacturer. I know BMW and Mercedes requires computerized battery registration, which is another clever way of milking you for another $100 bucks or so, even though the procedure takes about as much time as drinking a cup of coffee.

Good grief! You mean I have to go through a procedure to have a new battery put in my car? I'm done with procedures - if the battery dies, it dies - may it rest in peace - I'm not going to go through a procedure with the darn thing!

You don't really have much choice in the matter I'm afraid.

Shifty, I was just referring to the fact that I've had enough procedures lately (stent placement in my right coronary artery, heel pain when I walk and the shot of cortisone, the liver resection, the infection I sustained requiring readmission to Boca Regional Hospital's ICU, to name a few). I've had enough to last me a lifetime. Now, I have to go back to the podiatrist on Wednesday for another injection into my right heel. It just never seems to end.

Mike, look at it like this. You don't want it to end because the END is the END.

jmonroe

jmonroe

henryn said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Depends on the manufacturer. I know BMW and Mercedes requires computerized battery registration, which is another clever way of milking you for another $100 bucks or so, even though the procedure takes about as much time as drinking a cup of coffee.

Reminded me of a battle I'm facing right now. I just purchased, about 2 weeks ago, a used 2016 Chrysler Town and Country. And I only received one key. So I do some reading in various places, the dealer wants about $300 for a new key with programming. So I look on yelp for "auto locksmith". One wants $260, another one won't give me a quote until he comes out to my house for $20 service charge, and the third one never returns my call.

Next step, look on ebay and amazon. Keys (complete programmable key fob) costs $10 out of China, or about $40 from here in the USA, reputable seller, with 99% + favorable feedback. Back to the forums, more reading, one person says they bought a key on Ebay, the dealer programmed it for $50. Another person with same experience, dealer charged him $75.

Good enough, I order the key, comes in, looks good, start calling dealerships. The 3 closest Mopar dealers all want exactly the same amount, $165. I'm assuming the book shows one hour, and they are all charging $165 per flat rate hour.

I would expect that it takes about 60 seconds to program the key, and maybe 5 minutes total by the time you get out the "tool" and set it up.

As you found out, keys are no longer a no-nothing item when trading in a car.

When I went to Virginia to get my '15 Genny, one of the first things the dealer said when I got there is, "I hope you brought your second set of keys, otherwise your trade is worth $350 less (they had already given me a price over the phone for my '09). If you have them at home and mail them to us we will send you a check for $350".

Fortunately I had them so I didn't have to go through that.

jmonroe