Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

sda

The design of easy removal of the headlight unit of the Intrigue was great. I wonder if other GM cars shared the same design. The '03 Acura TL that I had required replacing the left headlight unit because it was getting moisture in it. Thankfully warranty covered the repair as it did require removing the bumper to replace it. The cost of the headlight unit wasn't cheap either.

driver100

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
The reality is that most companies run very lean today. Just in time parts inventory is the norm.
Also, if GM had to redesign the wiring loom, I'm betting they are making doubly sure it is designed right.
They don't want another ignition key situation, and who can blame them?
Here is a task for you. Tell us about supply chain management. Use as many words as you need.

Supply chain management (SCM) is the oversight of materials, information, and finances as they move in a process from supplier to manufacturer to wholesaler to retailer to consumer. Supply chain management involves coordinating and integrating these flows both within and among companies.

Do cars get held up in a garage for over a month because the part has to be redesigned and then put into the car?
And, like I asked before, does GG get this time added to his warranty period or do they get to warranty the car less this time....say 2 months.
Many people were told not to drive their GM cars because of the ignition problem....people were supposed to leave their car at home until the parts were ready.
I might find it acceptable if this happened to other manufacturers, but, this is a rare problem. Even worse, no one helps, gets back, talks about it, offers a quick solution, explains what and why, or tries to get some parts from somewhere else...like don't build one car and put the parts into GGs car.
Maybe I am not so understanding....I expect respect and competence if I have a problem, "supply chain management" or not.

andres3

ab348 said:

Michaell said:

They certainly aren't giving you a good customer experience.

For an organization that wants to do the right thing by the customer, your experiences seem to be just the opposite.

I think it's important not to conflate the customer experience here with the buyback experience. They are two very different things.

GG's customer experience here started with an unfortunate but unforeseen design issue. A relatively small number of vehicles with a particular combination of equipment had a wiring harness failure. This was corrected with a new design phased in during production but some got out into the field. The dealers were notified, GG's car was brought in and found to have the problem even though he reported no symptoms IIRC. Modified parts were not yet available so they gave him their top-line model to drive and said we'll let you know when it's fixed because it might be a while. I hope that's an accurate retelling.

Once the buyback button is pushed that experience is not the same. It cannot be because we are dealing with a vehicle, not something that can be repackaged and put back on a shelf to be sold as new. The process is by definition open to question, and the presentation of a recounting of a number of incidents to an arbiter can become adversarial as the two sides try their best to make themselves look as good as possible. Not all consumer goods can be returned by customers. In some places retailers are under no legal obligation to take returns, though most do. Some items are yours the instant you open the package. Others have a percentage of the price taken away when returned. Cars are something like that once they have been used for a while. The customer is not going to be happy if they think they are going to get every dollar they spent back. Yes, manufacturers and dealers make you jump through hoops to get them to take vehicles back. That is a function of the absolute price of the things, the diminished value once used, and their complexity. The fact that we have lemon laws in some states is an indicator that there is a need for it to occur occasionally when for whatever reason a vehicle cannot be fixed satisfactorily. But it will never be like returning a shirt.

I don't know about all that (surprise surprise).

VW just handled a buyback for me without all the adversarial grind and delay tactics. Maybe I benefited from a large class action settlement, but it seems to me VW did right by their customers and handled the buyback as best they could in a reasonably competent and pleasing manner. I got a good return on the buyback, and everything went rather smoothly. I know for some, they were impatient to get there money, and thought the process too slow. To ease the long process, they sent all TDI owners $1,000, $500 to be used at VW/Audi, $500 to be used anywhere you wish. That's paying it forward. Paying it in advance.

I know this wasn't a defect per say, but a buyback due to the EPA and CARB being embarrassed and exposed for incompetence, being asleep at the wheel, and having pointless tests mandated every 2 years for no real reason exposed for what they really are; a scam.

And all this customer service and doing right by their customer got them what.... ? Another sale.

imidazol97

driver100 said:

I might find it acceptable if this happened to other manufacturers, but, this is a rare problem.

Things as strange as this may have happened to other people and other companies but not have gotten the notoriety because of the forum here. I offer how owners of certain foreign cars even back in the early 2000's absolutely wouldn't admit there had been any problems with their cars. Even to the point of attacking other posters as trolls who claimed to own ones exhibiting problems.
In GG's case, After a couple of weeks, and no delivery time for retrofit parts (which may be different than those can be put onto a new car on an assembly line, the ideal thing to have happen was to say
"We will give you a new CTS for a small upcharge of XXX to cover the mileage and year difference. What color and equipment would you like us to find for a transfer or to build for you?"
Or in a less preferred case, we'll give you a check for $xx,xxx to go away and sign a confidentiality agreement.

driver100 said:

Even worse, no one helps, gets back, talks about it, offers a quick solution, explains what and why, or tries to get some parts from somewhere else...like don't build one car and put the parts into GGs car.
Maybe I am not so understanding....I expect respect and competence if I have a problem, "supply chain management" or not.

To repeat my suspicions, the new cars with a different wiring harness may have had other adaptations in other parts to allow the loom to be placed differently than on GG's car. The problem may be getting a service part that can be retrofitted to GG's car and having it pass all the approvals that probably have to be made for the new design (Yazaki?) for GG's car through government checks and legal checks and so on.

andres3

driver100 said:

Ab, GG made the same point I was going to make. A $25 shirt is different than a $60000 car. Even Judge Judy would say there is an expected value implied...mainly that you should be able to drive a new car and it should be repaired in a timely way to comply with the warranty. btw, if this car takes 2 months to fix, does that time get added to the warranty period....I doubt it.

If you are making and selling $60k cars, they should run properly or at least be repaired immediately.

perfect example of a good customer service opportunity. When Honda made those suspect transmissions for their powerful V6's back in the early 21st Century, they not only replaced the transmission after the 36K warranty was technically up, but they provided a new 36,000 mile warranty on the replacement transmission.

When Audi sends out letters extending the warranty on "suspect" parts like fuel pumps or cam followers, they extend the warranty on those parts to 7 years 120,000 miles.

Not having a car to use while your warranty time clock is running is why I like cars that don't need warranty services.

tjc78

isellhondas said:

I once owned a 1969 VW Beetle that had dealer installed A/C in it!

Klaus my German Mechanic (insert thick German accent her) " Dot is yust WRONG! No Volkswagen should haf erconditioning" And he was right.

When the compressor cycled on or off on the freeway the car would either lose or gain 10 MPH!

How Klaus hated that car to the point he would almost refuse to work on it!

I'm not sure of the year hers was, but my Mom had a Beetle with the A/C and the clutchless manual transmission. She always said she loved that car.

ab348

driver100 said:

Ab, GG made the same point I was going to make. A $25 shirt is different than a $60000 car. Even Judge Judy would say there is an expected value implied...mainly that you should be able to drive a new car and it should be repaired in a timely way to comply with the warranty. btw, if this car takes 2 months to fix, does that time get added to the warranty period....I doubt it.

If you are making and selling $60k cars, they should run properly or at least be repaired immediately.

I agree that there is a difference between the shirt (or a $500 blender) and a $60K car. By the same token though, that makes the buyback process much more challenging than a refund on one of those things.

If the parts were available the car would have been fixed long ago. From what I gather the parts were not ones that were in use on the line where these are currently being built, they had to be redesigned, tested and certified. Unfortunate, but no way to get around the time involved in that process. That is likely a big part of why a CT6 was provided as a loaner.

By the same token, I think the warranty issue you raised is a red herring. But really, this is GG's issue so there's not much point in us arguing the case here.

explorerx4

Well, GG is driving a better model than he owns while this episode drags on, so he is not left 'without'.
I stick by my previous post about what is going on with wiring.
Would I want the car back? That is another question.
Honda had to step up, otherwise they would have given up the segments they were growing and would have been back to selling only motorcycles and lawn mowers.
VAG has track record of taking car of problems only when a howitzer is pointed at them.

driver100

Imid said In GG's case, After a couple of weeks, and no delivery time for retrofit parts (which may be different than those can be put onto a new car on an assembly line, the ideal thing to have happen was to say
"We will give you a new CTS for a small upcharge of XXX to cover the mileage and year difference. What color and equipment would you like us to find for a transfer or to build for you?

Good points and true, if they don't have the right parts nothing much they can do about it True GG has a nice loaner to use at least - he should drive the crap out of it....ha ha!

I like the point you made that other car owners may have experienced similar problems, but aren't reporting it here. I think the big problem is still, no one is explaining to GG what is happening, and they aren't trying to make him whole again. If someone returned a book because the last chapter was missing I would give them another copy, and I would give them a free book or two to cover their costs and aggravation. Nothing is being done here.

explorer said: Well, GG is driving a better model than he owns while this episode drags on, so he is not left 'without'.
I stick by my previous post about what is going on with wiring.

True too. If it is a harness etc and it isn't ready than I guess he has to wait...or go to lemon law. But, Caddie should be talking to him, and I doubt if he has any confidence left in the product to buy another one. The whole thing is still wrong. Design wasn't handled correctly, no communication, no attempt to resolve a serious issue satisfactorily. Last point, no matter what the reasons, makes the situation unacceptable,

abacomike

@imidazol97

I have not held back on any defect or issue I've had with any car I've owned.  Think back imid:

2-2008 BMW 535i's I owned had identical issues with error messages for battery drain - BMW built me a second car with no questions asked - BMW engineers had no idea what was causing the problem.

2012 Mercedes E350 - leaking injectors and car stalling after all the injectors replaced.

2013 Lexus GS350 - wheels and tires - Lexus ignored my complaints - remember that one?

2015 Mercedes E400 - remember that one that came in missing standard equipment.  But they immediately built me another car - no questions asked.

I posted those issues on this forum.  I didn't hold back a thing.  The difference is that BMW and Mercedes responded quickly to the issues and I did not have my car in the service department for 5-6 weeks lacking parts.  In all cases if a car needed to be replaced, Mercedes and BMW came through as they should.

I've read other posters' complaints about their cars.  But in GG's case, 3 cars in a row in less than 18 months - where the manufacturer's customer service was less than poor.

I don't see the same things on this forum as you describe.  Just my point of view.  We have a bunch of guys here who hurt for GG and his misadventures with his Cadillacs and we support him, as I am sure you do as well.

I don't sense the biases you describe on this forum.  You are a bright guy, imid, and at times we all become somewhat zealous in our defense of brand loyalty.  But in GG's case, a wrong has been perpetrated on him and he deserves better than that.  Just my opinion, imid.  

stickguy

Mike, remind me. what ended up happening with that E350? I remember the injectors being replaced,, but did that fix the problem? I assume you just traded out of it because, well, that's what you do!

abacomike

stickguy said:

Mike, remind me. what ended up happening with that E350? I remember the injectors being replaced,, but did that fix the problem? I assume you just traded out of it because, well, that's what you do!

No, replacing the injectors was one issue - then they forgot to connect hosing when they replaced the injectors so the engine would constantly stall.  I was really upset - it was the dealership's service department that screwed thing up after that.

driver100

Mike, if I may add, we had the clutch problem with the A4. The dealer repaired the clutch within a day and discounted the parts to bring the bill down from $2200 to $1600. Then after some wrangling with the presidents office we got another $500 off. Technically we were over the warranty period by a few miles on a manual transmission, so they didn't have to give me anything.

I posted my problems, it didn't matter whether the car was foreign or homemade, I just report what I happened..

In GGs case, I find it hard to believe other luxury brands or many other car makers who take pride in their product would treat a customer this way.

I have found that in business there are always problems. The successful guy will be the one to solve the problems....look at amazon as an example. There is no attempt or plan to solve this problem. In fact they offer false hope and just drag the whole thing on....surely they must know how long it will take to get this part made and installed. And, why aren't they communicating with GG, or figuring out a way to resolve this satisfactorily - like give him another car while they try to fix this one?

qbrozen

driver100 said:

Mike, if I may add, we had the clutch problem with the A4. The dealer repaired the clutch within a day and discounted the parts to bring the bill down from $2200 to $1600. Then after some wrangling with the presidents office we got another $500 off. Technically we were over the warranty period by a few miles on a manual transmission, so they didn't have to give me anything. I posted my problems, it didn't matter whether the car was foreign or homemade, I just report what I happened.. In GGs case, I find it hard to believe other luxury brands or many other car makers who take pride in their product would treat a customer this way. I have found that in business there are always problems. The successful guy will be the one to solve the problems....look at amazon as an example. There is no attempt or plan to solve this problem. In fact they offer false hope and just drag the whole thing on....surely they must know how long it will take to get this part made and installed. And, why aren't they communicating with GG, or figuring out a way to resolve this satisfactorily - like give him another car while they try to fix this one?

But they did give him another car.

problem is, it is not HIS car, and I can understand that. There is a difference in how you feel driving your own car vs one that is just borrowed.

This has gone on too long. 30 days have passed, and, as far as I am aware, that means it is a lemon, even if they manage to fix it sometime in the future.

cdnpinhead

andres3 said:

Not having a car to use while your warranty time clock is running is why I like cars that don't need warranty services.

Amen, brother!

Then there's the hassle factor of taking it in, waiting around (even if there's a loaner, worse if there's not) and picking it up. Some people tolerate it better than others like, say, me.

Oh, and don't forget the fact that as soon as a service department starts, let's say "fooling" with a car, it'll never be the same. Fasteners will be left off, washers (remember them?) will be omitted, vacuum hoses won't be hooked up correctly, trim will be broken and that's just on the simple stuff. If they really need to dig into the mechanicals. . .

driver100

Of all my cars, since 1973...my first new car, a Maverick, I have had very little work done under warranty. That includes GMs, Chryslers, Fords, BMW, Audi, VW, Mercedes, I have had recalls.

We did have a Volvo that kept stalling...it was in the shop a lot until we dumped it too....got out of the lease early. btw...I have no hesitation in saying the Volvo was the worst car experience we have had. I call them as I see them, no bias.

stickguy

The only car I had since started buying new (1985) that had chronic issues (always bad when the entire service department greets you by name!) was our 1995 Voyager. Dumped that one at 3 years or so for a Quest that was super reliable. Never had any issues with that, outside of the radio display going funky, but I had that fixed at a local radio shop (redid the solder connections on the board) since much cheaper than replacing the unit. That had miles in the 70s when replaced I think. Maybe 60s.

imidazol97

abacomike said:

@imidazol97

I have not held back on any defect or issue I've had with any car I've owned.  Think back imid

I wasn't clear enough that I was NOT talking about anyone in this forum or even recently about problems. In fact, most here are fairly realistic.

I was talking about during the 90s, 00s, when I was shopping Accords and Camrys as an alternative to the Buicks I had been driving. The Accords, the bathtub style I call it, that came out in 2003? had some driveability issues in some vehicles and had creaking in the A-pillars, popping. The exemplar I drove had all of that. Along with frequent transmission problems that was enough to convince me I didn't like it as a ride. Careful reading showed that problems happened, but if Honda covered it under warranty, people acted as though there had never been a problem. "I've never had any trouble with my XXX model."

Then along came toyota with their sludging, er excuse me, gel problems. Then the unintended acceleration problems. And from various companies many others I've learned of. So the few things that needed maintenance on my Buicks looked about average. Even Macabee talked on the forum about the sludge.

If you were reading in various forums when someone mentioned these problems they were met with strong resistance from several of the people who were on the forums, some on Edmunds. They were called trolls. They were told they didn't actually own the car or that they were just making up the story. I was a lurker in most but the psychology was interesting to watch.

Even today, I listen to the radio mechanics and pick up references to known problems about cars which they and their callers believe are "perfect." Most recent was that a Honda line had problems blowing head gaskets from the 07-09 period loosely recalling. He commented that they had fixed a certain number of those in his shop in the past few weeks. (GG may know the shop on Ridge that has a talkshow.) Even this morning, the Columbus station has a sponsor, Ohio Lemon Law, and they give problems occurring like a Volvo with X?90 in its label that has backup camera problems. They of course are phishing for clients for individual suits rather than class action suits.

As for GG's problem, I recall being somewhat patient for a couple of weeks. Then as I learned more about the extent of the burning plastic in his car and time dragged on, I changed to replace or compensate. I had my Cobalt front end gone over and several things done at the local Chev store last summer. I got a call every other day about what they were replacing or looking at to evaluate for a noise that was one thing I asked to be fixed, if possible. (Turned out it was a headlight).

BTW, the headlight is held with 2 bolts and requires wiggling to bring out forward for bulb replacement. About 5 minutes if you've done it before. I actually replaced both units with new ones because the old plastic was dirty inside from condensate holding dust to the inside.

I know I'm over 200 words, but I hope everyone has read.

imidazol97

driver100 said:

I think the big problem is still, no one is explaining to GG what is happening, and they aren't trying to make him whole again. ,

Right on.

They explained to GG that his car was one of a small number that must have had certain options that meant the wiring harness was done a certain way. BUT no one explained why the replacement wiring was taking so long.
Communication. As I mentioned with my Cobalt front end work, I got phone calls. I gave them the car telling them to work on it at their pleasure--I had the Malibu to drive.

If my Malibu were to have a harness problem, I probably would hit my level at 3 weeks even having a nice replacement to drive. But there's something unique going on about the wiring. If GM does it wrong and has repeat problems with the retrofit version of the wiring then we'll hear people complaining about it on every TV show and complaining about how much money the administration loaned GM to save the jobs and how GM didn't have to pay it all back and other thing they can find to complain about. Just like the ignition switch catastrophe.

But the CTS is a premium vehicle. Should have been handled in a premium manner.

Someone mentioned the earlier car problems. I blame that on the dealership in that case. Project Pinnacle should have handled that but it's been delayed.

venture

abacomike said:

Well, I visited New Balance at the mall after having my Chick-Fil-A lunch and found the same problem - my right heel slips up and down in the back of the shoe. I thought it might be my sock, so I put on another sock, but the same thing happens. Maybe I have a misshapen right heel or it is so out of whack from being laid up in hospitals and rehabs. I think I will just wait until I get some therapy going and the results of the X-rays are reviewed.

People who run a lot use the "runners loop" to lace their shoes. That's what that extra hole is in the shoe. This keeps the shoe a little tighter in the areas that would cause blisters - the heel area being the major one. Maybe if you laced them that way it would help.

Google runners loop and pick one...

imidazol97

venture said:

abacomike said:

Well, I visited New Balance at the mall after having my Chick-Fil-A lunch and found the same problem - my right heel slips up and down in the back of the shoe. I thought it might be my sock, so I put on another sock, but the same thing happens. Maybe I have a misshapen right heel or it is so out of whack from being laid up in hospitals and rehabs. I think I will just wait until I get some therapy going and the results of the X-rays are reviewed.

People who run a lot use the "runners loop" to lace their shoes. That's what that extra hole is in the shoe. This keeps the shoe a little tighter in the areas that would cause blisters - the heel area being the major one. Maybe if you laced them that way it would help.

Are there fillers that would help tighten the heel on the one foot for Abacomike? It sounds like he needs a specialty store that fits and adjusts shoes. There were some advertising in Cincinnati that they can modify shoes to help people's problems.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/911K3O3MnPL._SL1500_.jpg

houdini1

abacomike said:

@imidazol97

I have not held back on any defect or issue I've had with any car I've owned.  Think back imid:

2-2008 BMW 535i's I owned had identical issues with error messages for battery drain - BMW built me a second car with no questions asked - BMW engineers had no idea what was causing the problem.

2012 Mercedes E350 - leaking injectors and car stalling after all the injectors replaced.

2013 Lexus GS350 - wheels and tires - Lexus ignored my complaints - remember that one?

2015 Mercedes E400 - remember that one that came in missing standard equipment.  But they immediately built me another car - no questions asked.

I posted those issues on this forum.  I didn't hold back a thing.  The difference is that BMW and Mercedes responded quickly to the issues and I did not have my car in the service department for 5-6 weeks lacking parts.  In all cases if a car needed to be replaced, Mercedes and BMW came through as they should.

I've read other posters' complaints about their cars.  But in GG's case, 3 cars in a row in less than 18 months - where the manufacturer's customer service was less than poor.

I don't see the same things on this forum as you describe.  Just my point of view.  We have a bunch of guys here who hurt for GG and his misadventures with his Cadillacs and we support him, as I am sure you do as well.

I don't sense the biases you describe on this forum.  You are a bright guy, imid, and at times we all become somewhat zealous in our defense of brand loyalty.  But in GG's case, a wrong has been perpetrated on him and he deserves better than that.  Just my opinion, imid.  

Mike, I had a very different warranty experience with Lexus. A few years ago we had an issue on our 2006 LX. The paint on the hood and roof was developing some whitish looking blemishes on the dark original paint, and we were completely out of the warranty period for well over a year.

I thought we were out of luck, but decided to discuss with the dealer. They contacted Lexus corporate and within 2 or 3 days advised us that the paint would be repaired at no charge to us. They gave us a nice GS 300 to drive and kept our vehicle for about 3 or 4 weeks. They had to repaint the entire truck in order to make everything look right, match and all that, plus give the paint a chance to "cure". The final invoice, they gave me a copy, was over $7500., and we paid nothing. The truck looked absolutely new.

Needless to say, we have been very loyal to Lexus and this dealer since that time.

dino001

My boss has an old Lexus IS350 well past warranty (years). The door inlays and dashboard plastics are falling apart. Really uggly look, just terrible. But... Lexus would replace it free of charge, cause they determined they had a systemic issue with quality and owned up to it. This is thousands of dollars. I like my BMW, but really doubt they'd do it. I think nobody else would do it, not MB, domestics, or other Japanese.

qbrozen

The only vehicle that ever aggravated me with its issues was the 135i. Our T&Cs haven't been the best, but since nothing ever caused problems with driving, it didn't irritate us terribly. The '08 had accessory issues such as the power third row eating itself, the DVD player crapping out, and finally the AC giving up the ghost at 80k miles. The '14 just had the chronic headlight issue, which seems to finally be resolved, at least for now.

Totally agree with imid about some fans adamantly denying problems. On the other side, though, there have been minor issues in history where people come to forums and totally bash the brand and state how its the worst vehicle ever and they are switching to XYZ brand. I often argue(d) with those people how every brand has its issues and, seriously, your brake pads wearing out in 30k miles or a mystery squeak in the interior is far from a problem in life.

venture

imidazol97 said:

venture said:

abacomike said:

Well, I visited New Balance at the mall after having my Chick-Fil-A lunch and found the same problem - my right heel slips up and down in the back of the shoe. I thought it might be my sock, so I put on another sock, but the same thing happens. Maybe I have a misshapen right heel or it is so out of whack from being laid up in hospitals and rehabs. I think I will just wait until I get some therapy going and the results of the X-rays are reviewed.

People who run a lot use the "runners loop" to lace their shoes. That's what that extra hole is in the shoe. This keeps the shoe a little tighter in the areas that would cause blisters - the heel area being the major one. Maybe if you laced them that way it would help.

Are there fillers that would help tighten the heel on the one foot for Abacomike? It sounds like he needs a specialty store that fits and adjusts shoes. There were some advertising in Cincinnati that they can modify shoes to help people's problems.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/911K3O3MnPL._SL1500_.jpg

I don't know - I'm not a runner. Then only way I know about the "runners loop" is I saw my daughter-in-law lacing her shoes before going out to run and I asked her about it.

That filler looks interesting but, of course, it's not my feet.

graphicguy

imidazol97 said:

driver100 said:

I might find it acceptable if this happened to other manufacturers, but, this is a rare problem.

Things as strange as this may have happened to other people and other companies but not have gotten the notoriety because of the forum here. I offer how owners of certain foreign cars even back in the early 2000's absolutely wouldn't admit there had been any problems with their cars. Even to the point of attacking other posters as trolls who claimed to own ones exhibiting problems.
In GG's case, After a couple of weeks, and no delivery time for retrofit parts (which may be different than those can be put onto a new car on an assembly line, the ideal thing to have happen was to say
"We will give you a new CTS for a small upcharge of XXX to cover the mileage and year difference. What color and equipment would you like us to find for a transfer or to build for you?"
Or in a less preferred case, we'll give you a check for $xx,xxx to go away and sign a confidentiality agreement.

driver100 said:

Even worse, no one helps, gets back, talks about it, offers a quick solution, explains what and why, or tries to get some parts from somewhere else...like don't build one car and put the parts into GGs car.
Maybe I am not so understanding....I expect respect and competence if I have a problem, "supply chain management" or not.

To repeat my suspicions, the new cars with a different wiring harness may have had other adaptations in other parts to allow the loom to be placed differently than on GG's car. The problem may be getting a service part that can be retrofitted to GG's car and having it pass all the approvals that probably have to be made for the new design (Yazaki?) for GG's car through government checks and legal checks and so on.

IMID....I think this makes the most sense, and I tend to agree with you. But, they've certainly been silent about the details about this. That tells me there's a whole lot more to this than just the replacement of a wiring harness.

As I think about the customer service aspect, something that's totally in their control, they've failed miserably there, too.

Not one person in this whole series of contact points has kept a committment they made....not the Zone Manager, not the Cadillac Customer Service rep, or her boss (who called to tell me about the part not being available to later this month, if then), or the BBB. When they did respond, they told me nothing of consequence, and it was later than they committed to inform me.

It's broken....all of it. I'm trying to get an arbitration set up, but BBB is now draggin their feet and I can't get it set up until I go through them. They are part of the problem, not part of the answer.

suydam

driver100 said:

Of all my cars, since 1973...my first new car, a Maverick, I have had very little work done under warranty. That includes GMs, Chryslers, Fords, BMW, Audi, VW, Mercedes, I have had recalls.

We did have a Volvo that kept stalling...it was in the shop a lot until we dumped it too....got out of the lease early. btw...I have no hesitation in saying the Volvo was the worst car experience we have had. I call them as I see them, no bias.

Except for my very first new car, the awful '79 Ford Fiesta, I've never had any warranty work on any car either. I also have had a few recalls, especially the last few years as companies have become more proactive. I stayed away from Ford after the Fiesta fiasco, and have owned mostly Mazda, Nissan, Honda and the occasional Toyota. Mainly because they made the vehicles I wanted to drive. I did have one repair prone Subaru Forester that I dumped early, but I also had very bad service experience with them.

oldfarmer50

imidazol97 said:

abacomike said:

@imidazol97

I have not held back on any defect or issue I've had with any car I've owned.  Think back imid

I wasn't clear enough that I was NOT talking about anyone in this forum or even recently about problems. In fact, most here are fairly realistic.

I was talking about during the 90s, 00s, when I was shopping Accords and Camrys as an alternative to the Buicks I had been driving. The Accords, the bathtub style I call it, that came out in 2003? had some driveability issues in some vehicles and had creaking in the A-pillars, popping. The exemplar I drove had all of that. Along with frequent transmission problems that was enough to convince me I didn't like it as a ride. Careful reading showed that problems happened, but if Honda covered it under warranty, people acted as though there had never been a problem. "I've never had any trouble with my XXX model."

Then along came toyota with their sludging, er excuse me, gel problems. Then the unintended acceleration problems. And from various companies many others I've learned of. So the few things that needed maintenance on my Buicks looked about average. Even Macabee talked on the forum about the sludge.

If you were reading in various forums when someone mentioned these problems they were met with strong resistance from several of the people who were on the forums, some on Edmunds. They were called trolls. They were told they didn't actually own the car or that they were just making up the story. I was a lurker in most but the psychology was interesting to watch.

Even today, I listen to the radio mechanics and pick up references to known problems about cars which they and their callers believe are "perfect." Most recent was that a Honda line had problems blowing head gaskets from the 07-09 period loosely recalling. He commented that they had fixed a certain number of those in his shop in the past few weeks. (GG may know the shop on Ridge that has a talkshow.) Even this morning, the Columbus station has a sponsor, Ohio Lemon Law, and they give problems occurring like a Volvo with X?90 in its label that has backup camera problems. They of course are phishing for clients for individual suits rather than class action suits.

As for GG's problem, I recall being somewhat patient for a couple of weeks. Then as I learned more about the extent of the burning plastic in his car and time dragged on, I changed to replace or compensate. I had my Cobalt front end gone over and several things done at the local Chev store last summer. I got a call every other day about what they were replacing or looking at to evaluate for a noise that was one thing I asked to be fixed, if possible. (Turned out it was a headlight).

BTW, the headlight is held with 2 bolts and requires wiggling to bring out forward for bulb replacement. About 5 minutes if you've done it before. I actually replaced both units with new ones because the old plastic was dirty inside from condensate holding dust to the inside.

I know I'm over 200 words, but I hope everyone has read.

Not too long at all and I agree that very few cars are totally trouble free. Just google "xxx car problems" and you will bring up forums where the same defect is mentioned over and over. As you go through these discussions you start asking yourself "what we're they thinking" designing the car that way.

sda

It is terribly disheartening knowing what GG has gone thru with previous Cadillacs and now this one. Sadly they seem to be all lip service and nothing more. For those of us that might consider a Cadillac as a future purchase, I know I have, I will really have to think twice before doing so.

Dad had a horrible experience with Cadillac some years ago with his Eldorado diesel. He spent thousands of dollars in repeat repairs trying to keep the thing drivable. Ended up with a long and demanding process thru the BBB. GM was well aware of the issues the diesels were having but tried to deny any responsibility. He ended up with a small settlement and never bought another Cadillac. Seems like somethings never change.

berri

Let's be honest, Cadillac isn't at the Lexus or Mercedes level. Moving their HQ to NYC won't help because Madison Avenue advertising isn't going to fix all of this. Besides many in NYC take public transportation, cabs, or Uber. Parts and dealerships are a critical component in vehicle success. You can put out a great product, but if you can't support it you are going to lose.

Mr_Shiftright

tjc78 said:

isellhondas said:

I once owned a 1969 VW Beetle that had dealer installed A/C in it!

Klaus my German Mechanic (insert thick German accent her) " Dot is yust WRONG! No Volkswagen should haf erconditioning" And he was right.

When the compressor cycled on or off on the freeway the car would either lose or gain 10 MPH!

How Klaus hated that car to the point he would almost refuse to work on it!

I'm not sure of the year hers was, but my Mom had a Beetle with the A/C and the clutchless manual transmission. She always said she loved that car.

I bought one of those clutchless VWs in order to flip it many years back. That transmission was great because who needs "performance" in a VW bug anyway? The only downside was, as I recall, was that the actual shifting operation was vacuum operated and if you pushed the shift lever too far, it would drop back into neutral. I remember doing something simple to it to get it to work right again, and I made good money on that car.

driver100

dino001 said:

My boss has an old Lexus IS350 well past warranty (years). The door inlays and dashboard plastics are falling apart. Really uggly look, just terrible. But... Lexus would replace it free of charge, cause they determined they had a systemic issue with quality and owned up to it. This is thousands of dollars. I like my BMW, but really doubt they'd do it. I think nobody else would do it, not MB, domestics, or other Japanese.

My neighbor has a 1984 bmw he loves and his partner has a Lexus SUV...RX type. He said if he was buying a new car today he would get a Lexus. His wife's car has one of those instrument panels and even though the car is way past warranty period, they will replace it as soon as possible. They just have to keep building them. Now that is above and beyond....and my plan is to drive my MBs, or BMWs, even Audi's, but, if they ever become problematic and I just want to get a reliable car with some pizzaz...I would put Lexus at the top of my list.

driver100

GG, If you want to feel a bit better read about this CTS-V owner....$95000 car that was on the road for a few days.

This was his problem, some of the replies are worth reading....there is even a Houdini on the site!

On the way home from picking it up from the dealer i was almost home and i thought it felt like it had a transmission shutter. I put it in the driveway and came back out in an hour to set up the onsar app. When i started it the check engine light was on with 32 miles. I was on with onstar so i asked why the check engine light was on and they said it was a ignition failure it was ok to drive to the dealer. I took it to work the next day cus it was on the way to the dealer. when i got to work it was making a valve train noise so i put a scanner on it and it had a po300 and a knock sensor code. I called the dealer n they said to drive it down. They latter on called me and said it had a bent push rod n it would be ready that day. When i called back they said it bent the new push rod and was going to need lifters and was going to be another day. They called and said it ran great and was all ready. I went to pick it up and it had 66 miles on it so they did drive it but i didn't make it 100 feet down the road and it had a dead miss in it now check engine light with a service stibilatrac and rear end message i took it for a ride with the tech and it started making the valve noise again. Now there saying it needs a fuel management system. Its been cylinder #7 everytime and has another bent pushrod. Gotta say I'm not to happy that the motor has been open 3 times with 66 miles on it so i called cadillac and now waiting for a call back from them and the dealer is waiting for parts.


2016 CTS-V Major Problem

ab348

I'm surprised at the number of people who claim to have never needed warranty work. My experience goes back to when I started driving in 1973 and would handle the service visits for dad. There was a gap in my new-car purchasing for a few years after I bought the house but it's a long list. In order:

1973 Volvo: more time at the dealer than on the road. Everything was wrong with this car. Wiper switch fell out, radio failed, would not start in the rain, badly out of alignment as delivered, would not idle smoothly, I'm sure there were others I now forget.

1974 Maverick LDO: driver's seatback broke, remote mirror mechanism failed, dove to the left on braking, front suspension loose. Fortunately it rusted out in 3 years.

1975 AMC Hornet Sportabout: actually not bad. Only issue I can recall is that the 258 engine's valve cover leaked oil, and was replaced with a different design.

1978 Pontiac Grand LeMans Safari: flow-through ventilation did not work (not connected), driver's door window fell into the door, engine would sometimes race on a cold start, water leaks and rattles in tailgate, exterior woodgrain defective as delivered and replaced, many interior trim pieces ill-fitting.

1985 Toyota MR2: passenger door window fell into the door, threaded bung in exhaust manifold constantly loosened and leaked; head gasket blew (!), coolant system was not refilled properly leading to overheating, 3 stereo head units failed, radio antenna assembly failed.

1990 VW GTI: rear radio speaker needed replacement, power steering squeal (dealer unable to fully fix), heater core replacement.

2002 Olds Intrigue: several front control arm bushings (I suspect the dealer was rooking GM on these).

2009 Buick Lacrosse: warped brake rotors, transmission never right. Out of the car at least 3 times, never fully fixed. Too bad, nice-driving car otherwise.

2011 Regal: creaky center console, misfire incident one time that was fixed with new spark plugs.

2014 ATS: nothing (but a couple of recalls)

tjc78

I don't think I've owned any new car that hasn't needed some sort of warranty work. 

98 Olds 88 train wreck spent weeks and weeks at dealer
2000 Solara, rotors cut before 20k and they had to replace the CD changer 
2003 Avalon sunroof issues and drivers door seal IIRC
2006 Avalon O2 sensor
2008 Elantra (wife's) CD player and some recall
2009 Genesis. Too much to list
2012 LaCrosse Crankshaft seal. (Major repair)
2015 Enclave rotors cut at 23k
2017 Elantra needs to go in, USB port doesn't work.  

stickguy

I had a few new cars that never had any warranty work. 1991 Subaru and current Acura being 2 of them. I don't think the Quest did either. Probably a few more in there.

graphicguy

driver100 said:

GG, If you want to feel a bit better read about this CTS-V owner....$95000 car that was on the road for a few days.

This was his problem, some of the replies are worth reading....there is even a Houdini on the site!

On the way home from picking it up from the dealer i was almost home and i thought it felt like it had a transmission shutter. I put it in the driveway and came back out in an hour to set up the onsar app. When i started it the check engine light was on with 32 miles. I was on with onstar so i asked why the check engine light was on and they said it was a ignition failure it was ok to drive to the dealer. I took it to work the next day cus it was on the way to the dealer. when i got to work it was making a valve train noise so i put a scanner on it and it had a po300 and a knock sensor code. I called the dealer n they said to drive it down. They latter on called me and said it had a bent push rod n it would be ready that day. When i called back they said it bent the new push rod and was going to need lifters and was going to be another day. They called and said it ran great and was all ready. I went to pick it up and it had 66 miles on it so they did drive it but i didn't make it 100 feet down the road and it had a dead miss in it now check engine light with a service stibilatrac and rear end message i took it for a ride with the tech and it started making the valve noise again. Now there saying it needs a fuel management system. Its been cylinder #7 everytime and has another bent pushrod. Gotta say I'm not to happy that the motor has been open 3 times with 66 miles on it so i called cadillac and now waiting for a call back from them and the dealer is waiting for parts.


2016 CTS-V Major Problem

WOW! It's one thing for a manufacturer to have build, engineering, etc problems. It's quite another to put the customer through all sort of irritating gyrations when the product is under warranty and Cadillac acts like owners have no right to expect something they paid good money for to operate as it was intended.

I don't get it. I really don't. For all the brouhaha Cadillac has been stirring up about their new products, their new advertising, their move away from Detroit (presumably to get away from the typical GM morass), they still don't get it.

The stuff that's happening is straight out of the '70s, '80s and '90s GM malaise periods. It's like they haven't learned one thing.

sda

Only 4 cars out of the many I've owned did not need any warranty work. My '96 (24 mo lease) Mazda Millenia and '98 Millenia (purchase). '03 Honda Odyssey and '09 Civic. The Odyssey was recalled to inspect the transmission for possible overheating but was determined to be fine. The worst for warranty work was my '98 Cadillac Catera which I bought in '00 as a CPO and traded the '98 Millenia.

driver100

I forgot about the Catera, and that reminds me of the Cimmeron - wonder what they are worth as collectors cars? And as was mentioned a few days ago...the 6-4-8 Sevilles.


I liked that idea Lee Iacocca had at Chrysler - customers could call him directly if they had an issue.

Had to look up Millenia...looks like a baby Buick;

sda

Mazda did a slight face lift in '01 with last year of the Millenia in '02. I like the Jaguarish looking styling of the '96-98 better. The black one is the '96, dark blue '98. Both had beige leather interiors and were a pleasure to own. The Catera was a wonderful car but trouble prone.

ab348

graphicguy said:

WOW! It's one thing for a manufacturer to have build, engineering, etc problems. It's quite another to put the customer through all sort of irritating gyrations when the product is under warranty and Cadillac acts like owners have no right to expect something they paid good money for to operate as it was intended.

I don't get it. I really don't. For all the brouhaha Cadillac has been stirring up about their new products, their new advertising, their move away from Detroit (presumably to get away from the typical GM morass), they still don't get it.

The stuff that's happening is straight out of the '70s, '80s and '90s GM malaise periods. It's like they haven't learned one thing.

Come on. Did you even read the thread? Cadillac is replacing the car.

I know you have to make your situation look the best it can, but hyperbole doesn't help.

jmonroe

driver100 said:

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
The reality is that most companies run very lean today. Just in time parts inventory is the norm.
Also, if GM had to redesign the wiring loom, I'm betting they are making doubly sure it is designed right.
They don't want another ignition key situation, and who can blame them?
Here is a task for you. Tell us about supply chain management. Use as many words as you need.

Supply chain management (SCM) is the oversight of materials, information, and finances as they move in a process from supplier to manufacturer to wholesaler to retailer to consumer. Supply chain management involves coordinating and integrating these flows both within and among companies.

Do cars get held up in a garage for over a month because the part has to be redesigned and then put into the car?
And, like I asked before, does GG get this time added to his warranty period or do they get to warranty the car less this time....say 2 months.
Many people were told not to drive their GM cars because of the ignition problem....people were supposed to leave their car at home until the parts were ready.
I might find it acceptable if this happened to other manufacturers, but, this is a rare problem. Even worse, no one helps, gets back, talks about it, offers a quick solution, explains what and why, or tries to get some parts from somewhere else...like don't build one car and put the parts into GGs car.
Maybe I am not so understanding....I expect respect and competence if I have a problem, "supply chain management" or not.

Now you did it ! You may not want to read all of what I think about SCM, formerly known as "Purchasing".

As if it wasn't bad enough, when they acquired the title of SCM things got even worse.

I had a pretty good run in with purchasing back in the very early '70's. The purchasing group hired a new guy fresh out of the Marines where he was a Lieutenant in their Supply Corps. Seemed like a good fit, as far as similar skills go but we weren't the Marines we were an engineering company. A very large engineering company.

I wrote a Purchasing Requisition (PR) to BUY many dollars (almost $100K) worth of instrumentation. It is the purchasing departments job to convert my PR into a purchase order (PO). This take charge Marine decides, because of the large dollar amount of the order, he was going to go out for "competitive bids" vs. going directly to the company I specified. After about a month my lead engineer asks when the hardware was going to be delivered to the plants it was ordered for. I told him I had not heard anything nor did I receive any verification the order was in process but since it was a large order I was going to wait a little bit longer. He asked me to check on it because he was talking to someone at one of the plants and they asked him about it. I called Mr. Marine and he said I should be receiving some news by the end of the week. He wasn't wrong about that, I got a response about 2 days later and that is when I found out that he went out for competitive bids.

I think everyone one within 50 feet heard me go into a rant as I'm reading the quote. My lead comes over and says, "WHAT DID HE DO? I told him, as if he didn't already know from my rant. My lead asks me to ask him to come up to his cube so we can discuss this misunderstanding. Mr. Marine jumps to and is at my leads cube in almost no time. My lead asked Mr. Marine why he went out for competitive bids. As he is telling us why, our manager happened to be passing by and hears what is going on. He walks into the cube and says, "when you two are finished, I want the two of you in my office. DON"T MAKE ME WAIT ALL DAY". Mr. Marine says, "if this is about what we are talking about, I'd like to be there too". My manager said, "IF I WANTED TO TALK TO YOU, YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN INVITED". Needless to say we adjourned our meeting quickly and went to our managers office without Mr. Marine.

We discuss what is going on and he wants to see my PR. I go and get it and he reviews it and says, "look pretty clear to me. You wanted to BUY not get competitive bids". He tells us to get it cleared up and wants to know when the hardware is going to arrive at our customers plants.

I get a conference room for the next day and my lead and I attend along with Mr. Marine and his manager. I explained to Mr. Marine that the competitive bids he received from the competing company's did not me our specifications. I told him that I already knew that and that is why I wanted to go to the company I specified and provided quite a bit of supporting information which neither he or his manager had a clue as to what I was talking about. Take charge Mr. Marine says very authoritively, "let's get them in here, one at a time, so can discuss this further. They are very reputable companies". His manager quickly says, "I think that is a very good idea. We should be able to save our company some money". I start into another rant and my lead says, "I don't think you guys understand". They cut him off short and almost in unison the two of them say, "NO, YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND. We are supposed to save the company money. Don't tell us how to do that". My lead gets up and says, "WE'VE WASTED ENOUGH TIME. THIS MEETING IS OVER". Let me say something about my lead. He was one of the sharpest guys I have ever met and was the least confrontational person you'd ever meet. To get him riled up you had to really work at it.

We tell our manager that it looks like this situation has to now be elevated up the chain to get higher levels of management involved.

@driver100, I don't know if you are still here but to make what could be a lengthy novel out of this, when higher levels of engineering and purchasing got involved, us lowly engineering guys never had another problem like that again.

What is sorta funny, when I was still debating about coming back as a consultant for my last gig with the company in 2007, I remember saying to my would be boss that the previous time (about a year before) that when I was back as a consultant working in a different department, I could see where SCM seemed to be back to their old ways about trying to save the company money and was delaying orders and then engineering was made to look like they were responsible for the delays. My would be boss said, "you won't be involved in that too much but you know how to handle that kind of stuff, right"? I said, "only if I get support from the higher ups. If not, I can just walk away today". The response was, "I understand, when can you start"?

I know this is going to sound as arrogant as hell but when I became a manager I told my guys, "the reason people walk through that front door everyday is because we are an engineering company. We are not the support groups around here. That doesn't mean we don't need everyone on the same end of the rope. I expect all of us to take the extra steps required to help every group we work with so that we can all make this work."

FWIW, Mr. Marine lasted about 6 months after our misunderstanding and his boss, the real tuff guy, lasted about another 3 months after that.

@driver100, you asked for this by researching the duties of SCM. :@

jmonroe

driver100

@driver100, you asked for this by researching the duties of SCM. :@

jmonroe

I read it completely, and enjoyed the story, because it is a perfect example of FALSE ECONOMIZING, one of my biggest pet peeves. Waste a lot of money and lose customer confidence trying to save a few pennies.

Before I got canned from my second to the last job I was told to buy some special markers at a stationery store. They cost about $6. The moron bookkeeper/accountant chewed me out for not getting our 15% discount - which no one even told me about. I had to drive back and repurchase the markers to get 90 cents back. That would take 20 to 30 minutes......how could that make sense? I offered her a $5 bill but she said that wasn't acceptable. :@

driver100

ab348 said:

graphicguy said:

WOW! It's one thing for a manufacturer to have build, engineering, etc problems. It's quite another to put the customer through all sort of irritating gyrations when the product is under warranty and Cadillac acts like owners have no right to expect something they paid good money for to operate as it was intended.

I don't get it. I really don't. For all the brouhaha Cadillac has been stirring up about their new products, their new advertising, their move away from Detroit (presumably to get away from the typical GM morass), they still don't get it.

The stuff that's happening is straight out of the '70s, '80s and '90s GM malaise periods. It's like they haven't learned one thing.

Come on. Did you even read the thread? Cadillac is replacing the car.

I know you have to make your situation look the best it can, but hyperbole doesn't help.

Not sure, but he says it was GM but it sounds like it was the dealer who replaced the car - going by the last sentence. The dealer did a smart thing...it was a new car, just give the guy another car, this one can get sold as a demonstrator or something, it only had 26 miles on it. In this case, the dealer worked with the customer all the way, and resolved the problem before the guy had to try Lemon Law.

T

his is all 3 ROs in one. GM has agreed to buy the car back but can not supply me with another because no dealer will swap one out. They offered to order one and let me drive this one till the new one comes in. As long as it doesn't take for ever i was ok with that. The dealer was very good in doing what ever they could to help but Cadillac customer service was useless to me.

fintail

I've had 3 new cars, all MB, all W212.

The first car had 3 issues. First was a loose exhaust tip that would rattle, 10 minute fix. Second was a plastic noise on the rear deck that was eventually determined to be an issue with the plastic expanding in heat - it would click and make noise that drove me nuts. The dealer went the extra mile to fix it, spending many hours examining it, replacing the entire assembly, including sunshade, on a somewhat misguided journey to fix it (I told them it was the plastic, not the sunshade). They finally put thin felt along the seams, and it mostly solved it, and I dealt with it. The car also had the "comfort access" steering column raise and lower feature freeze in the raised position. They took it apart and it started working again, no need for replacement. I've never used the feature again, don't want to push my luck.

Second car had zero issues, no rear deck noise.

Third car has had zero issues, but the rear deck click pops up now and then. It's a design flaw that I (try to) ignore.

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

I forgot about the Catera, and that reminds me of the Cimmeron - wonder what they are worth as collectors cars? And as was mentioned a few days ago...the 6-4-8 Sevilles.


I liked that idea Lee Iacocca had at Chrysler - customers could call him directly if they had an issue.

Had to look up Millenia...looks like a baby Buick;

Wonder what they're worth? Not much.



http://albany.craigslist.org/cto/5962502062.html

ab348

jmonroe said:

Now you did it ! You may not want to read all of what I think about SCM, formerly known as "Purchasing".

As if it wasn't bad enough, when they acquired the title of SCM things got even worse.

@jmonroe, that was a great story.

What you described with Mr. Marine is what happens all the time when you work in government like I did for 32 years. It is required to happen, in fact, for everything except small purchases under $500 or $1000 here. Even there you are supposed to get 3 quotes. Anything worth more than that requires creation of a tender document which is usually 30 or 40 pages long, outlining all the terms and conditions and the specifications of what you are buying. Of course you cannot specify a particular manufacturer or model. So what occurs instead is that you learn to write the tender so that the only company that can meet the spec is the one you want. It is all totally ridiculous.

The whole government procurement process is based on a few false premises. First, that items are generic, so that one that meets a spec as written is just as good as another. That is like saying that a Daewoo is the same as a Toyota Mazda Cadillac Audi BMW Mercedes. Secondly, that gov employees cannot be trusted with the management of spending and knowing what they need so it needs to be totally impartial and handled by a third party. And finally, that this awful process gives taxpayers the best value.

The reality is that bureaucrats like me made an art form of writing specs and evaluating responses so that we ended up getting what we wanted in the first place. Unfortunately that cost a lot of time and the delays meant that often things came too late to do whatever they were needed to do. Also, some vendors refused to submit their own multi-page responses as required since generating them was very labor-intensive so some products were never available to us. It was all quite ridiculous and wasteful. But Procurement always told anyone who would listen what a great job they did.

driver100

Oldfarmer...looks like a good buy for you...$1750 for a car with 50000 miles. Just not sure you would get your size 13.5's into it.

Ab - Government in action. They need a system to keep procuring in line, unfortunately the process doesn't allow for maximum efficiency. I have come to believe all government is inefficient, we just have to accept it is the cost of living in a democracy.

jmonroe

tjc78 said:

isellhondas said:

I once owned a 1969 VW Beetle that had dealer installed A/C in it!

Klaus my German Mechanic (insert thick German accent her) " Dot is yust WRONG! No Volkswagen should haf erconditioning" And he was right.

When the compressor cycled on or off on the freeway the car would either lose or gain 10 MPH!

How Klaus hated that car to the point he would almost refuse to work on it!

I'm not sure of the year hers was, but my Mom had a Beetle with the A/C and the clutchless manual transmission. She always said she loved that car.

I'd say your Mom is a soft touch. She "loved" you too didn't she?

jmonroe

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

Oldfarmer...looks like a good buy for you...$1750 for a car with 50000 miles. Just not sure you would get your size 13.5's into it.

Ab - Government in action. They need a system to keep procuring in line, unfortunately the process doesn't allow for maximum efficiency. I have come to believe all government is inefficient, we just have to accept it is the cost of living in a democracy.

I don't think so, if what I heard is true they had more problems than the Catera.