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Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?
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Not directed at you, but that philosophy prevents many consumers from getting the info they need to choose the products that meets their wants (economy, efficiency etc).
As it is now, seems all the filter makers claim theirs is the best,
same with oils, -Consumer reports in the big taxi tests said all the oils are the same
Thats possibly true (except for Frams cardboard, and "Bosch" using the german name to increase brand integrity ) for filters too.
Tsjay's philosophy probably also holds down on some lawsuits for discussing some proprietary stuff as well....
All the stuff we DO say on here though is good at making us check some things for ourselves, and also makes us think about points of view we may not have thought of previously. I have started cutting open filters for the last few months now because of what I have read on here, some things we can do ourselves. Some things are not so easy though and we can always benefit from other's experience...I learned a few things about filtration years ago taking Chemical Engineering classes which gives me a couple of viewpoints that another person may not know. Someone else may know construction methods that I do not know and so on.
Ever notice that dark colors, particularly black signify high quality (Hormel black label ham,black tie affair,castrol plus filter,Bosch(and the aforementioned German name) etc)and light colors (yellow/gray/white) signify average grade (penski/supertech/Castrol std)??? Sometimes the different color may get more $$$ for the exact same,or at least VERY similar filters..
Point is we all can contribute with whatever background we can contribute with. We all have something to add
tsjay Do you know anything about the paper in the K&Ns??
Heck, if someone makes filters for K&N, we might actually have some of the business already. We don't sell directly to K&N, but maybe they buy their filters from someone that we do supply media to.
tom
I read on Hastings site that their's are good for 10,000-12,000 miles. I'll have to check and get a firm number.
tsjay, if someone doubts your credentials, that's their loss. Don't worry about it.
--- Bror Jace
I have up til now and will continue to speak what I know for a fact, and if I am just speculating about something, I will say that I am just guessing. And, of course, like everyone else, there will be times that I am just plain wrong about something. I will graciously accept being corrected in those instances.
But, I don't like being called a blowhard or a liar.
tom
Tom, do you frequent many other boards? I get called more names by silly kids that get upset when I say that their choice of oil isn't the best in the world.
Wear their scorn like a badge of honor. >;^)
--- Bror Jace
show us where I used the words "blowhard" and "liar" in my #597 post. I read "nonsense" and "myth". And this is a "personal attack"?
In all seriousness and civility, I would really like for anyone to explain the rationale for a filter manufacturer to build three (3) different
engine oil filters for the same engine. In 2001 I bought two (2) new 2001 Ford Explorers with the
302 c.i. engine. I also bought an oil filter from the dealer and at the third oil change I bought a Motorcraft FL-820S from Advance autoparts. I removed the factory filter, I removed the dealer filter I installed, and I installed an "aftermarket" Advance filter.
ALL THREE WERE IDENTICAL. If the process--and it
was stated as fact, not conjecture--offered by Mr. tsjay is that there are three different classes of filters for the abovementioned application is true, I'd just like to know WHY.
It makes no sense to me, either from an engineering standpoint nor a marketing one. So
educate me. (BTW, I'm no kid, Bror Jace. I'm 54.)
The "Engine Plant" filters, as the name of the category implies, go straight to the engine plants and are the filters that are on the new vehicle when you first buy it.
The second category of filters, OEM Replacement, are the ones at the service departments at dealerships.
The third category, after market, would be the Motorcrafts, for example, that can be bought at an auto parts store or a discount store.
I did not say that there would be a different filter for each of these categories, at least not a difference that you would see when the filters are cut open.
It's a matter of the degree of testing required and the ease with which a supplier might get a deviation where the "official" performance spec is not being met.
I won't say which brand of filter it was, but I knew that two different customers of ours were making the same filter, and I knew that the paper we supplied one of these customers was a higher performing sheet than the one we supplied to the other customer. This is when it was explained to me that the one customer had the engine plant business and the other had the after market replacemnent business.
The filters would probably look identical when cut open, but the performance of one would be higher than that of the other.
I don't think I am above being challenged, Ygriega, it was just the tone of your post that I took offense to. Maybe you didn't mean it the way it sounded, but it seemed that you were more or less telling me that I either didn't know what I was talking about or that I was lying.
Oh well, I would like to forget it and just be friends, whatcha think?
tom
The info below is just a hypothetical example and is not Motorcraft data.
On the old J806 filter test which I am most familiar with, if the dust add rate is 1.5 grams per hour, then the aftermarket filter might last 10 hours and the OEM might last 12 hours. In either case, the filter would never see that much dirt in the real world.
tom
What does Purolater gain by designating three different types or standards depending on where they're going? It's a new Ford 302 and it's under warranty and why would Purolater care? I guess I'm really missing something here. Anyway, you definitely know the filter media business.
Bye.
Acme Motors wants their own brand of filters to put on their cars and to sell at their dealerships in the service departments, but they do not make their own filters, so they have to spec them out and get bids from filter companies.
Filter Companies A, B, and C make prototype filters and submit them to Acme along with a price quote.
Company A is the first to make an acceptable filter, so Acme awards the contract to them for the engine plant filters and the OEM replacement filters for the dealerships.
Company B comes along and says we are not quite up to the performance level on your spec, but we will sell you our filters for X amount per filter. If the X amount they are charging is an appreciable savings for Acme, they might say, OK, we will grant you a deviation so that we can accept you filters while you work on improving the performance. Well, Acme would most likely order a good portion of their replacement filters from Company B , but would only buy the engine plant filters from Company A.
Maybe company C eventually gets in the game and gets some of the business also.
Here's where I lack an understanding of how it works... the Acme filters that you would buy at a Walmart. Acme lends their name to these filters, but Acme neither makes them nor sells them. It must be just some licensing agreement, I guess. The filter company can put the Acme brand on them, if they meet certain standards, and Walmart can sell them. I suppose Acme gets a percentage of the price of the filter under the licensing agreement. The question is, what are the standards for these filters? Maybe they are officially the same, but in reality, are they up to the specified level, and who is checking them and how often?
Now, I am just speculating about how it works for the Walmart Acme filters, but what I said makes sense. If someone can provide confirmation or can tell us otherwise, I would appreciate the info.
So, Ygriega, it isn't the same filter company putting out three different performance levels of the same filter: it is different filter makers all trying to meet the same spec. Company A in the example above could (and probably would love to) have ALL of the business, but they may be unwilling to meet the price of Company B.
Hope this helps. And I hope I'n not too far off base about how things work for the discount store Acme filters.
tom
Another thing that might be happening is Acme Motors has a Licensesing agreement with company A to distribute and sell filters in a specific region of the USA (such as the East coast) Company B to distribute and sell filters in a different region of the USA (such as the West coast) , while company C might have a licensesing agreement to sell after market filters in another country (such as Canada). I know this happens with other products.
All this is assuming there are actually such things as
"engine plant filters" vs "OEM filters" vs "aftermarket filters". This is where you--with all due respect--lose me. I just don't see the reason for these three "types" of filters.
This all makes my head hurt....
The engine plant filters are purchased specifically for use in the engine plant. They are held to the strictest standards.
In reality, one company could make all the filters for each of the categories, and the performance level would be the same for all of them. That's usually not the case, however.
tom
I used to work in the brake business and when I opened a set of brake pads I would find all sorts of brands and combinations of brands in the same packging. The dozen or so brake pad assembliers I was familiar with at the time would buy friction material from the same 3-4 manufacturers of friction linings and materials. So, direct competitors were selling the exact same product.
It was worse when the brakes were imported. These things were packaged, stored, repacked sometimes a handful of times. Lots were bought wholesale, with certain numbers missing and those were sourced separately.
So, it does not surprise me at all that a large company like GM would source something like oil filters from a number of different manufacturers. And it might be impossible to find a set, definitve pattern for where the different filters show up (dealerships, factories, discounters, etc ...). It all depends on which numbers were needed where and which supplier was able to fulfill a last-minute order.
--- Bror Jace
TB
Chuck
but made in us?
If true, they are riding on the name.
What if they were called "Smithy Filters" or Freddie Filters, or South Chicago Filters?.
Would you buy it?
The paper would not need protection, since it would be resin-impregnated, and the resin would be cured during the assembly process.
tom
tom
tsjay, I belive I already asked you this question in the past.
Thanks
could be that the Ford filter for that particular application IS the same at all 3 different locations, but another application MAY NOT BE...
I use the AC pf52 for my 2 Chevys and the AC pf43 for my Nissan truck, they have nothing in common with each other when comparing the Kmart pf52 and the Walmart pf52 for example, the pf43 is also obviously different at each store as well.
I had some service (replacing a reman engine for another reman engine under the reman engine warranty!!!) done at a Chevy dealer and they used a filter that looks like the Walmart version (I have not cut it open yet, I just looked at it while they were finishing up installing the new engine)..
So I know from personal experience that at least some filters are identical on the outside (paint color anyway) and totally different on the inside..obviously different manufactures, not just different grades of paper...others could be same manufactures just using different grades of paper only, maybe for a slight cost difference..
I have never cut a filter open. I'm pretty anal, but not that anal or inquisitive. Maybe I should be. It just appeared to me that I had a factory,
a dealer OEM, and a parts house filter and they all
were the same. And maybe they were, but sometimes it's like Mr. tom says it is.
Chuck
Sure doesn't add anything to the performance of the filter. Just makes our lives more complicated.
tom
tom
Thanks again for your meaningful info.
Or could you just tell me please, what slightly larger filter would fit my 2002 Mazda Protege 2.0L LX (which has a very tiny OEM filter listed as equivalent to Fram 6607 or Purolator 14622 or Mobil M1-108)?
I use the book at Advance Auto Parts and the filter information is on page 929. The 14622 and 14620 are the same except for length. (That's near as I can determine) I recall both bypass valves are set at 14-18 psi. This information is not available online. The equivalent filter for PL14620 is the K&N 1010. Thats what I am using now. Hope that helps.
Go to www.pureoil.com and click on e-guide.