Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?

paul29

The short filter 14622 fits the 2 liter Mazda engine , the longer 14620 filter fits the Mazda 2.5 liter v6 . it is the same sizing as the OEM Mazda filters for these engines.When I purchased my 2 liter Mazda part of the deal was 6 oil filters.The parts man gave me 6 of the long ones and said they were identical to the short one except for capacity.

adc100

Their latest generation of filters now advertises 99%/98% for single pass/multipass. Also noticed that the tope line of Fram now uses a synthetic/paper medium.

ywilson

Are a combination of paper and synthetic media(cellulose, synthetic and glass fibers). I remember reading this on thier web site. I use thier filters exclusively. I am the type that keeps a vehicle for 10 years and want it to last with the least of problems. I have yet to have a car die, due to oil related failure. I do have a question. Earlier in this forum there were some questions about the flow rate of oil filters. Does anyone have any idea about the flow rates of different filters having been compared somewhere? I would be interested to see this. I don't know the flow rate of the Amsoil/Hastings filters and would like to find this information. Thanks in advance.

adc100

Thanks for the information. Purolator lists most of their filters as 3 gpm. I'm guessing that is the minimum SAE specification. It would be interesting to find out a more accurate value. I'm sure that filters pass more than 3 gpm.
Whats Amsoil's efficiency??

ywilson

I am not sure. I was hoping someone could fill me in. If I don't get an answer I will write them to find out. It is not listed on thier web site. You can check them out at www.amsoil.com . It is pretty informative but of course, it's thier site. I use all of thier fluids in my Durango since new and have had no problems. I just turned 50,000 miles this morning and look forward to 50,000 more trouble free miles.

vwracer

Any one have any experence with a SYSTEM 1 oil filter? Good? Bad? Worth the money?

csandste

http://www.gopurepower.com/purepower_filters.html

A permanent filter with a disposable cartridge?

cayetano

Are they better than Mobil 1 or K&N? I've heard mixed reviews about the OEM being better because of the anti-drain-back value being better. Any truth to this?
Also, does anyone know who makes these filters?
Thanks.

alternator

Thanks adc100 and paul 29: The longer Purolator 14620 filter sounds like just what I'm looking for.

knapp3

I have 2 Nissan cars. For years I blindly used Fram filters thinking the Nissan OEM filters were inferior and over priced. Not anymore. Too much valve train noise with Fram that LITERALLY disappeared with the first turn of the key once a different filter brand was installed. And of all the parts that are critical in a Nissan V6 engine, it is the valve clearances! Now I use Mobil 1 because they seem to have better filtering and dirt holding capacity than Nissan, and I'm willing to pay for an expensive filter. If I didn't use them, I'd feel very comfortable using the Nissan brand. K&N are great filters too. Very comparable to Mobil in filtering efficiency and capacity. Both made by Champ Labs. I'm so mad at myself for using the Fram units that I actually called Mobil to check 'em out and avoid making the same mistake twice with filters. They declined to say how much capacity their filters had, deferring instead to my car manufacturers oil change intervals. That's understandable. K&N by contrast, said their filters ought to be changed by 6,000 miles as they are not "extended" drain filters. Nonetheless, you can't go wrong with either one.

It is so hard to get any objective and uniform information about oil filters that you really have to rely on your own common sense. It reminds me of what an old boss told me when I first started a sales job, "Confuse the customer, and sell them the best." Unfortunately with oil filters, its often a case of "Confuse the customer and sell them the worst!"

I'm no expert on oil filters, but from what I've been able to piece together, the Nissan filters appear to be of good quality, and designed to filter out partical sizes ( >20 micron) that Nissan feels are harmful to their engine tolerances. They also seem to be made in mind for the longer oil drain internvals that Nissan calls for with normal service. Unfortunately I've never found my local Nissan parts dealer to be very knowledgeable of their parts. Other Nissan dealers however put out some fairly factual information on the web. If you search "nissan filters" on various search engines, you'll find those dealers and their data. I like the www.google.com search site myself. I've never tried looking for Infinity filters, but considering that is the high end Nissan car, I'd hope you might find even more detailed info.

Good luck. Chuck

PS. Don't spend so much time on the internet checking out filters that you forget to enjoy these great Nissan cars. As my wife keeps reminding me, "It's ONLY an oil fitler!"

wain

I had one instance of valve clatter at startup after sitting overnight, on a 99 new infiniti. It had a dealer installed Nissan fiter.
i switched to pure one and no more clatter .
I started taking pure one filters in to the dealer - I got the impression they had heard the problem before.
who knows - maybe dealer bought a lot of the Nissan filters and stored them in a hot warehouse.
pure one advertises a silicone anti drain back valve.

adc100

Haven't had it with Nissan, Pure One, Mobil 1, and K&N filters. I have the Nissan 2L engine.

alternator

Someone please explain. You change to a different brand oil filter and the valve noise immediately disappears? It's still the same oil, it's still the same valve mechanism, it's still the same valve clearances. What could have possibly changed that would reduce the noise?

tsjay

I suppose it was an overhead cam engine, so it wouldn't be lifters making the noise. Would it just be that the cam(s) [V6?] are getting lubricated quicker on cold starts due to a less restrictive filter?

tom

tboner1965

You have hydralic valve lash adjusters. Very similar to lifters.

TB

paul29

I could explain why changing to a different filter may quiet your HLA's, but instead ,as you seem to be interested in your Mazda ,get yourself a nice large drink and go to this site, you will be there for a while. It will answer most of your questions on your Mazda . http://www.bradbury.cwc.net/probemx/index.htm

wain

if your filter has a defective anti drain back valve the engine starts without oil.

alternator

Rather than filling a new filter with oil, I always start the engine, let it run for 10-15 seconds to begin oil distribution, shut-off engine, wait 20-30 seconds and then restart (years ago I read that this was the thing to do - I can't explain why it should be so, can you?). At any rate, over a span of 12 consecutive new cars, I've never had a engine failure. I kept each car an average of about 65,000 miles and I always used Fram filters (Oh, Oh, did I just use a bad word here?) Also, on the 5 Cavaliers I owned in a row, if you filled the filters with oil, the oil would obviously spill out when you had to position the filter horizontally to install it.

Paul, thanks so much for entry to that very entertaining Mazda web site. I had been searching all over the web for just the torque specs listed there. Do you know who is behind that web site? They are very opinionated on some points, so I wonder about their credentials.

zr2rando

Once upon a time Frams were rated number one, most everyone knew it and they ruled the shelves at parts stores. In the last several years though they cheapened up and started living off of their good name. I have a 1989 Nissan truck with 4 cyl OHV engine. I used those frams as well, always had lots of Valve train noise at cold startup and just thought it was normal. I read about the Frams always causing that noise and tried an AC filter for the truck. Noise went away first start with new filter. I never used another Fram after that. An anti-drainback valve that is defective will cause this for a moment after startup, but if that was all it was the noise would go away in less than a minute. The noise I heard would persist until the engine warmed up and the oil thinned up some. I checked a couple of those filters after use and the bypass valve was a very weak plastic button valve in the bottom of the filter, not the top like several other brands.
I think the bypass valve was opening practically all the time and pressure was not building properly until the oil warmed up and could start going through the filter properly...oil was still flowing but not at a high enough pressure to properly lube the top area on the engine,,the valve train area. That truck has 190k miles on it now so at least the filter flowed oil,,,probably just not very well filtered!!! I change oil every 3k anyway so probably didn't really push filtration as bad as if I tried extended changes.
But I don't use Frams anymore.
See y'all
Good Morning!
Rando

adc100

What you are saying makes no sense. I can tell you this: On cars where the oil filter is verticle and you fill the filter there is no startup engine noise noise. On horizontal filters where you can't fill the filter there is noise. Also 65K is very low milage to get rid of a vehicle (for me anyway).

Later,
Al

deepdivot

No, not really. Just started lurking on this board and discovered how Fram construction is 'unique' among manufacturers. Guess I'll have to switch to something better now after 40+ years of using Fram! My last car only lasted 229,000 miles, and purred like kitten when I got rid of it because the body was wasted. Used only Fram filters and Pennzoil (which also seems to get bad press) every 4000 miles.

knapp3

Well frankly, I've attributed the absence of valve noise at start up to 2 reasons.

When I add new oil, it is getting poured in thru the top of the valve cover. I assume there is enough left in the valve area to prevent the noise when I first start the engine.

Thereafter, I think it due to better antidrain valve designs that other filters have than Fram. On a Fram filter it looks to me like the rubber anti-drainback valve seals the metal backplate to a cardboard end cap, not metal, and easily leaks, causing dirty oil to drain back into the pan. I've noticed noisy valve train at startup on several of my vehicles, and figured this filter is likely the cause after reading about it at this post. The other telling item I've noticed is that the Fram filter was virtually empty of oil whenever I pulled it off the engine. All I know for sure is that the noise stopped when I used another brand.

One web site I found even makes a point of providing some data on Nissan oem filter anti drain performance: http://www.nissanhawaii.com/Owners/Genuine/GP_page7.asp

tsjay

Somebody please explain to me why it would be important to pre-fill the filter before installing it on the engine.

I know that it would make the oil start circulating a few seconds faster the first time the engine was started after the filter change, but is that all that important, since it only happens once?

tom

armtdm

Agree, only happens once, can be messy if a horizontal fit etc. Not worth it.

Also, to the post that used Fram for 200,000+ miles.

If you change your oil every 3000-4000 miles you can use the cheapest SL rated oil and piece of crap filter (fram) and still get great durability. Hassle is the key.

wain

Does anyone know if the Purolater specified filter for the 4 cyl Camry (14476) is the same as a longer filter 14477 which has the same diameter and threads size and looks the same, but is longer?
camrys have plenty of room for a longer filter.

Anyone know?

adc100

Page 929 see if the bypass setting, and other features except for length are the same. Its not online you'll need to check at Advance Auto etc.

gsleve

I had purchased a small book in 1992 that featured how's and procedure for maintaning you're car and one suggestion given for changing oil filter (they used a fram in the picture) was to fill the filter with oil if it was a horizontal fit use a small oiler and squirt some through the center of the rod were the oil filter screws on now if my memory serves me correct and I'll look this up they said, it sends clean oil immediatley to the bearings of the motor thereby extending bearing life another 10,000 miles.

wain

Any use of a filter not on our OEM recommended list will void the warranty we provide for our filters. Our filters are built for each specific vehicle. Even if the oil can looks the same or is the same thread length it doesn't mean it will fit the application you are trying to use it on.

paul29

I do not fill my filters before installing, .they are all horizontal. I only had two cars (Mercedes diesels) which had vertical filter housings, these were designed to drain the housing oil to the oil pan by way of the bypass passage when the filter was removed. the drill was to remove the housing top first this allowed the dirty? oil in the housing to drain to the 7 liters in pan then you drained the pan. On these engines you could not prefill the housing as it would just drain out to the pan. As far as filling a conventional filter first, if the oil is poured into the center hole, on start up unfiltered oil will be going to the bearings. That is clean oil you say! Well take a look in the bottom of a light colored oil container after emptying ( exception: the clear bottles from Quaker State, must be doing some final filtering or drawing oil from tanks that are allowed to settle first). As for the web site it appears to be British, but what amazed me was the power that can be pulled from such small engines ,we only dream of over 400bhp from a Mazda 2.5 liter V6. Tsjay, Popular Science or Mechanics did a very comprehensive test on oil filters in 80,81, or 82. At that time they found Nissan(Datsun) to be one of the worst of what they tested, i'm sure their present offerings are much better. Fram was acceptable, I note people say it has gone to cheap costruction as of late. Question: has the paper filter media changed to any extent since 1980?

deepdivot

I certainly would never disagree that the metal end plates that most filter manufacturer's use are stronger than what Fram uses. But I think it's certainly debatable as to what is actually required for the job. Perhaps the other filters are just overdesigned. In other words, 'perhaps' you're just tossing away money (albeit not that much). Got a friend with a 76 Olds Cutlass which has over 360,000 miles on it and never had the heads off. Uses a Fram every oil change. I think calling them 'crap' oil filters, which seems to be the word in this forum, is a tad strong. Perhaps 'value engineered' would be a better description.

knapp3

Your comments about what is actually required for the job is very perceptive. Despite all the Fram bashing myself and others engage in, I think they probably do at least the minimum necessary to get the job done. Maybe more. I've never ever heard of serious engine damage directly attributable to an oil filter. Other people may have. Not me. But, what is really frustrating is the lack of objective, uniform information for the average consumer upon which to base an informed buying decision. It seems that every filter manufacturer is quick to advance data that makes them look good relative to the competition, but yet remain silent on fingings that aren't too complimentary. As a result we are left to our own wits to figure out who offers the best value for the price they charge and our vehicle application. Lord knows I'm not going to pay for an SAE test finding to find out. It costs a lifetime supply of the best filters on the market today. As a result, we are left to our own common sense and personal preferences.

tsjay

I really don't know what type of paper the Fram filters have. They are the ONLY major filter manufacturer that doesn't buy at least some of their paper from us.

tom

adc100

How do filters operate as they absorb/filter particles?? Does the filter become more efficient at trapping smaller particles?? Is there a difference between cellulose and fiberglass in this regards? My understanding was that the filter did not really become more efficient with small particles.

Thanks

zr2rando

Maybe Tsjay can add some details but in general..
any filter (air/fuel/oil..) starts out as least restrictive as it will ever be, (least efficient and highest flowrate). As time goes by and the filter collects debris it becomes more restrictive as the filter material gradually holds more debris in the passages that the fluid is moving through. It gets more restrictive (more efficient and has a lower flowrate). Eventually it gets clogged and the efficiency is at a maximum and flowrate is at a minimum. Different filter materials would change the efficiency/flowrate curves when compared with time so some would last longer and some would fill up quicker.
You ever watched the air filter in your house? At first it doesn't change much and then it starts looking dirty, and then it REALLY starts looking dirty, and then if you don't change it the airflow is basically stopped at the filter..that is an example of increasing efficiency, at first it only catches the big stuff, after it gets a little dirty, it even starts catching the small stuff, thats shows how the efficiency changes. You've seen the pleated air filters? They start out more efficient, so they have to add more material (pleats) so it will still work for the estimated 30 day period like the cheaper air filter, it just catches more dirt even starting at the beginning?
Tsjay, I miss anything?
Good mornin
Rando

armtdm

But note that people who use them and get great durability in the engines change the oil and filter every 3000-4000 miles. Again, IMHO one could get the same durablity even without a filter if you change the oil that often.

As to being politically correct and calling Fram "value engineered" should we also call Castrol Syntec by the same name for their FULL SYNTHETIC label on hydrocracked oil. Creative Marketing !!

I feel we need to be explicit if we ever want to get back to honest and fair marketing and manufacturing processes. CRAP IS CRAP value engineered is a KMart Term and I wish Castrol the same fate as KMart!

Would love Consumer Reports to do a true independent test on oil filters and oil but I doubt that we will ever see it. Too many products, combinatiions and normal day to day driving would make the test take 10 years to complete if it were a true to life test.

wain

i asked Purolator if the 14476 and 14477 filters are the same - they look the same except 14477 is longer.

Their answer was:
"The L14476 and the L14477 oil filtes are tied to different original equipment part numbers where they are cataloged. While the filters are similar except for length, Purolator must catalog them as the original equipment requires in order to meet warranty concerns. "

Sounds like he is saying they are the same???

vidtech

A phrase comes to my mind when it comes to fram..
"quality challenged".All you fram users have to do is cut one open.I'll bet you never use them again.

deepdivot

Actually, value engineering is not a K-Mart term but a term used in engineering to describe a process whereby the functions of a design are developed and then only the design conceived. One intent of the process is to avoid doing something because 'its always been done that way'. If you look at the design requirements of an oil filter, ie. oil flow, max pressure, pressure drop, desire to filter X microns of dirt for Y hours, maximum size, thread, etc. and compare the design of any of the filters available, you'll likely find that for the typical engine, they all meet the needs, including Fram. A good example of value engineering is jet engines. I work for an aircraft company and one of our engine suppliers also supplies jet engines for cruise missiles. Some airplane designers might look at a jet engine for a cruise missile and state, what a piece of crap. Why the thing wouldn't last an hour in a plane. The fact is, the cruise missile engine specs were developed, and the engine was then designed to meet those specs. You can put an airplane engine in a missile, but it wouldn't get the missile to the target any better, and would only add to the cost. But at least the engine wouldn't be a piece of crap! You can put a $10-12 filter in a car, but you might be hard pressed to do much better than the 76 Cutlass with 360K miles.

zr2rando

I don't use Frams anymore, for the same $$$ I use almost any of the competitors at the moment.Fram may technically be ok, but other filters stopped the valve noise that Fram filters caused so I go elsewhere these days
Rando

armtdm

In his book on Henry Ford. The Ford officers dining room had the best hamburger in the world.

Lee said that it was and it should be . When one gorund up Filet Mignon it had to be a great burger.

Same goes for a quality filter. Ingredients make a huge difference! A cruise missle only has to be fired once and a value engineered engine can do the job. Of course if my life depended on that thing hitting its target I would not want Fram making the engine!!!!!.

wain

Fram= cardboard.

csandste

no longer have the expose from the engineer who worked for Fram. Too bad, it was telling.

tsjay

Old Rando did a good job of explaining things. Yes, filters become more efficient, cause dirt filters dirt. It's called cake filtration. As the media gets caked with dirt, it catches more dirt.

The problem is that it becomes more and more restrictive to flow, and if left on too long, will by-pass a good bit of the time.

The media doesn't really absorb dirt, if you mean the fibers actually take in some dirt. The media traps and holds dirt between the fibers, in the void areas, or "pores."

tom

zr2rando

Synthetic materials would just have more evenly sized pores due to uniform size if the fibers, and paper/std cellulose would have some big/some small size fibers so pores/voids would be less uniform...right?
Good morning
Rando

tsjay

You're on the right track. Microglass is a wonderful thing for filter media. The fibers are small in diameter and almost perfectly round in cross-section. This makes for a LOT of smaller pores for better effiency of filtration. You get the flow you need because of the higher number of pores, and you get the efficiency because the pores are smaller.

Guess I'm gonna have to recommend that we hire your butt, since you know quite a bit about filtration!

tom

adc100

I still do remember that a representative from Parker (They make a filter line) He indicated to me that fiberglass filters (full depth -no paper at all) actually are more efficient-that is they stopped more smaller particles when they were new because all of the crevices in the new fiberglass had no dirt in them. As they (the crevices) filled up they were not as good at getting the little guys. I guess that the paper changes all of this. The guy did have a lot of experience and I think I am speaking corectly.

wain

What caused Toyota last year on some engines to change filter media to a wool/cellulose/packed looking media rather than the one layer paper?

stealth1969

filter on my Seinna once. It had valve noise on startup. Don't use them now because for that reason.

zr2rando

As luck would have it (bad luck!) I am currently available. I am a victim of the year 2001 hi-tech layoff program, lost my job in December.(18 years on the force)..Big telephony/internet mfg company has downsized all year long and finally got me a couple weeks before Christmas, I've been spending more qual-time with my wife lately, and on here obviously!
Some women say married the first for love and the 2nd for money,,,,well I worked the first for money and will end up working the 2nd for fun/interest. back to subject..
Filters are cool
see y'all
Rando

deepdivot

Being an engineer, and especially working in aircraft, I tend to believe that bigger, stronger and heavier isn't necessarily better. I suppose that's why I've viewed the Fram filter as being a good design. Meets the requirements using 'unique' materials (ie. crap cardboard ). Why build some parts of the filter to last 10,000 hours when the media will only last 100? On a related matter, some have stated that they don't like the smaller filters being used on modern engines and replace them with as large a filter as will fit. This may or may not be a good thing, as it has been mentioned above all filters, especially those using paper media, filter the worst at the beginning of life, gradually get better, then finally start bypassing. If one uses frequent oil changes relative to the wear in the engine, it could be the larger filter may never reach the 'efficient' point, thereby doing a worse job of filtering. Of course, what is the ideal size? It's probably anyone's guess, since there are so many variables.