Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?

fleetwoodsimca

It would seem that the best we can hope for in changing oil is a high level of dilution of whatever crud remains in the engine. I have taken the "next step" a couple times in the past, when dealing with a very dirty crankcase-- drain, refill, run a few miles on it, drain again, and more fresh oil. It seems to come cleaner that way.

armtdm

I think the best is to drain the oil while hot and let it sit overnight, that way it gets a few extra ounces of the dirty oil. Flushing with new oil as suggested would be the ultimate but very time consuming and costly.

harry31

Isn't changing oil, as in...
>Flushing with new oil as suggested would be
>the ultimate but very time consuming and costly.
the same as changing oil every two or three thousand miles?

opera_house_wk

It doesn't have to be that hot. At 120 degrees, it flows like water and that is what you want to flush out any sediment that might be on the bottom of the pan. It also drains out most of the oil in a reasonable time. If you let drain overnight, you get almost all the oil out. And that might be a problem! You run the engine without oil till the oil pump primes and the oil filter fills up along with all the oil passages. So which is worse? Running without oil or running with new oil that is contaminated by a few oz of oil that a few days before you were perfectly happy with. Fill the pan as soon as you can.

adc100

This happens all the time when you replace a horizontal filter. Very difficult to impossible to fill it up with oil and keep the oil in the filter while you try to thread it in. I'd venture to say almost no one does it. Certainly not Jiffy Lube!!!

Also I had an 88 Ranger where I was using the AC oil filter. I didn't realize it at the time that the AC had no drain-back falve. So for years I started the vehicle every morning with very little oil in this very giant filter. Sounded quite ugly but the truck ran fine after 125K when I sold it.

armtdm

But, waiting overnight or not is not with argueing about

wain

VW actually addressed this issue in a VW manual I had about 20 years ago and it said something like let it drain til the drip rate slowed to one drip every 10 seconds ( if i remember right) then put the plug back in.

alternator

When you replace oil doesn't some of the new oil find its way into the oil filter, before the engine is ever restarted? Or does all of the new oil go only into the oil pan? Or does this depend on the engine design?

opera_house_wk: no matter how much oil you drain out, you're still going to start out with the same amount of new oil in the engine aren't you? Did I misunderstand you?

opera_house_wk

That's why they use a special prelube when they assemble an engine, so it stays there during the building process. All this oil which is draining out overnight has to come from somewhere. When you refill right away and I should say, start the engine, there is oil still left to provide lubrication. The point is, what benefit do you get from getting every last bit of oil out. None. If the oil is that bad, you should have changed it 1-2K sooner. Which also gives you a lot more benefit, at the same cost, than pouring a fresh quart through to flush the system. If it isn't obvious to you, nothing I say will ever change what your father taught you.

alternator

lots of things, including not being rude, which seems the intent of your last sentence. But thanks anyway for your comments.

titanium10k

Why do some filters have anti drain back valves and others don't? I use fram extra guard filters on my dakota and everything seems to be fine a 150000 miles later, although I don't think my filter has that valve.....

vidtech

with a fram,it doesn,t matter if there is one in the filter.it doesn,t work properly because of the shoddy construction of the filter.

fleetwoodsimca

If the filter in your truck is oriented in a way that most or all the oil stays in it due to gravity (filter straight up and down) then whether it has the valve or not is a moot point. If you have been using FRAM filters successfully for 150K miles, you have about as much testimony as you need to keep on keepin' on!

armtdm

Just look inside any valve cover or oil filler neck and you will see oil pooled on nuts, or depressed areas of the engine. These oil collection points will never get drained out and every mechanic will tell you that about 1/2 quart will remain trapped inside an engine in these constructure points. Just impossible for all oil to drain.

On spec sheets you will see a dry fill and a drain and fill capacity for all engines, dry fill is about 1/2 quart more. Dry fill being after dis assembly or when new

bluedevils

I think this topic has come up from time to time but I don't remember the opinions. adc100 hinted in post #904 that perhaps it's a good idea to fill a horizontally mounted filter with as much oil as possible when installing the new filter.

That is the setup in our 98 Isuzu Trooper. Is that a sound recommendation-- put a few fluid ounces of oil in the filter when installing it?

adc100

I really did not say that its a good idea to do that, perhaps it is. I don't do it. I think that using syn oil provides a little more startup protection using this horizontally installed filter.

opera_house_wk

I read my comments again and I think you are just at a loss for anything better to say. It is a known fact that things we learn very early on are difficult to shake loose. These are our core beliefs. I have these same compulsive beliefs. It doesn't really matter much. But, if we are all here on a bar stool splitting hairs, there should be some basis to defend these beliefs.

I have never seen a late model (last 20 years) oil filter for a automobile gas engine that did not have a check valve. I agree that most check valves are barely working by the time the filter is removed. A very scant few filters are mounted upside down. The check valve was not designed for just those few. Diesel engine manufacturers consider this so important that the check valve is built into the engine. There are pre lube systems sold that pump in oil before the engine is started. The distributors are removed from rebuilt engines and an electric drill is used to pump oil before the engine is started. And, I did an experiment last night that I hadn't done in 30 years as a comparison between oil with STP and without. I stuck a piece of metal in new oil and let it drain vertically in the garage which was only 20 degrees last night. I suggest you all try this to see how much oil can drain off metal over night.

I can't say any measurable damage is done draining the oil overnight. I certainly can't see any good reason it would be the best way. I just did an oil change on my car. I left the filter in and just drained an replaced 4 quarts. I recently got this repo car and it is the third oil change. This filter only has 6 weeks and 3K on it. That old quart of oil doesn't hurt anything. I have yet to hear any reason why draining the oil that long is a good thing to do.

fleetwoodsimca

I have a friend that always fills a new filter with new engine oil just before installing it. Myself, I find it hard to believe that it helps, because as we all know, the engine is never really drained during an oil change. My routine is to start the engine shortly after the oil change is complete, depending on the residual oil protection of the "old" oil still coating everything. I believe that to be adequate while waiting the very few seconds it takes for the oil pump to push the fresh stuff into the filter.

n8wvi

Check out a Purolator 14460. No anti-drainback valve. It's not needed. This filter is for Subaru H4's which have their filter mounted gasket up. And yes, I do fill the new one with fresh oil before putting it on the engine. This filter was also listed for the (relatively) new H6 which mounts its filter sideways. The reason Purolator switched their recommendation to one that has a valve was [quoting e-mail from Purolator] "many customers were frightened by the lack of a drainback valve on the filter". Quoting Subaru "The anti-drainback valve is built-into the oil cooler" so the car still doesn't need the valve in the filter. Personally, I think Subaru was oversimplifying, I think the filter is mounted LOWER than the static oil level in the pan. I haven't measured it, but visually, that's how it looks. Either way, nearly all scoobies don't need this valve, and Purolator omits it from their 'off the shelf' filters as well as the ones they make for Subaru.

Sorry for the rambling, but I'm just amazed at the number of engines that DON'T have their filters mounted 'gasket up'.

Dave

fleetwoodsimca

If you have a filter that mounts at a significant angle, then filling it with oil before mounting it is a big mess. Any filter that goes on at a very shallow angle of tilt, or no tilt, could be filled in advance without much spilling predictable. So do it or don't! the oil pump turns the pressure light off so fast, why worry one way or the other?(:oÞ

opera_house_wk

That's a car I have never worked on. A check valve outside the engine is a much better design compared to those you get in the filter. For sure they were worried about the time it would take to fill the oil cooler. The Subaru was designed for the cold snowy regions of Japan. Get that oil there quick in the cold. I have a friend who builds +1000 marine engines and he always installs a bypass valve in the block when a remote filter is used. This protects the engine in case one of the hoses gets crushed

opera_house_wk

As much as I dislike the FRAM PH series, this filter looks pretty good. Element has 35 pleats, 3.83" long and 0.78 deep, fuzzy filter media with evenly spaced pleats that are slightly flattened at the core, approximately 210 square inches. The core is corrugated steel with alternating rows of 4 and 5 holes for a total of 131. End caps are steel and no obvious bypass valve. The real shock is the silicone check valve that still works. I would of thought that the silicone would have needed some metal helper spring but this seems to work just fine. Other than cost, I would have no problem using this filter. What a change from the PH line. Its like another company made it!

AC Delco PF47 - This is one of those tiny little filters It had 59 pleats 1.83" X 0.34 for approximately 74 square inches. It had no bypass valve. The sad story is that the check valve had started to flatten out and made a gap which rendered the valve useless. If your valves go clankity clank, you need to change the oil more often. Too bad AC Delco doesn't quite make the grade in this department.

adc100

Here is another filter survey. I think it was probably posted before.

fleetwoodsimca

opera_house_wk: Can you tell us more?
where when how much, etc.
adc100: Uuuuh... did you leave something out?

adc100

http://ntpog.server101.com/reviews/filters/filters.shtml

gsleve

there was a book on how to get the most life out of you're car and I purchased it. I recall that it recommended that when replacing the oil filter place small amount of oil or fill half way in the filter if the filter was mounted sideways they suggested to purchase a little oiler which has a stem attached and pump some into the oil tube emanating from the engine block.

Now the reason for performing this procedure was that it had added 10,000 more miles to the engine bearings, additionally they pointed out that qick lubes will usually never if ever perform this procedure

opera_house_wk

I'm just doing an informal study on USED oil filters. All filters look nice when they are new. I look for collapsing media, check valves, media pushing through holes, off center gaskets and glue breaks. Some people give me these and I have knowledge of how long they have been in a car and what kind of driving was done. Others I don't. These two were just grabbed from a friends service bay area. Just trying to see what can be learned. So far, its that filters don't collect that much and that most check valves deform and stop working. And any manufacturer that wants to do a cut away filter to show how theirs is better uses a PH series as the other filter. You get an update when I do a filter and some comment on things I find interesting. I won't be doing comparison tables.

armtdm

An Amsoil SDF 36 which is the larger version of the SDF 20 cut open on the study posted earlier. I was very surprised at the strength of the spring at the bottom as well as the bypass valve construction (this filter had been on the engine for one year and 5000 miles). The flow back was rubber and seemed to be functioning after the year and 5000 miles. I don't put many miles on this car as you probably noted. The paper in terms of pleats etc is as described in the prievious Prelude filter study noted earlier.

I had a tough time, well, I could not separate the paper element from the end or rear end caps, really, really glued on well. Noted no accumulation of much or anything on the paper pleats themselves in terms of particles etc.

I did prefill the new replacement fitler but it is a vertical mount so no big deal. I also use the Mobil 1 and Pure One fitlers but I have never cut one open to date. Next time.

Oil analysis resutls on the oil form this change have not been returned

fleetwoodsimca

You are seldom wrong, including this time! (:oÞ
"Here is another filter survey. I think it was probably posted before."
Uuuuh huh!

opera_house_wk

I can understand air filters. You make them to fit whatever area is left open in the engine compartment. With spin on oil filters, You make a long one, a short one and a real compact one. Instead, the sealing gaskets are all different diameters and the mounting holes are different. I could see metric and inch. You would think SAE would have gotten it down to less than a dozen by now. Instead we have a wall of oil filters. If the numbers were reduced, we might have a better selection of good, better, best. The filter numbers are getting too long to remember. Life should be simple, like if its a Ford you use a FL-1A. From the filter studies, its obvious that filters don't follow any exact performance specification. Just a minimum standard.

wain

why not 4

4 cyl, 6 cyl two sizes of V8

brorjace

I'd agree that there are far too many but I couldn't see the number being reduced to just four. Also, I wouldn't base any new numbering system on the numbers of engine cylinders. The size of the filter depends on maintenance interval (capacity) valving and flow (especially for high-RPM engines) and the amount of space in an engine bay.

But, we should be able to get the number down to 20-30 or so. That right there would be a massive improvement over the hundreds (literally) of filters already in use. Honda is already doing something like this. All Hondas & Acuras with just a couple exceptions (their Insight Hybrid for example) use the same size oil filter.

I used to be into paintball BIG TIME and every time a company would come out with a new brand of gun, they'd use a proprietary thread pattern for the barrels. It must have driven the aftermarket barrel producers NUTS!

Every new car that comes off the drafting desks should use a size/style/pattern filter that already exists. There is virtually no reason a new one would have to be made for the latest Hyundai, Dahiatsu, etc ...

--- Bror Jace

wain

i think ALL the chrysler products from the 50s to about 1970 used ONE filter.

fleetwoodsimca

Yeah! The PH8A fit most of them. Then, the later ones went to a shorter version of essentially the same, and some recent ones run the very similar but shorter PH16 (I remember the Fram numbers, but don't draw too many conclusions!).

tsjay

You wonder why there are so many different filter designs, and that's a good question. I wonder why there are so many different medias for the purpose of automotive lube oil filtration.

You wouldn't believe how many different grades of paper we make. Each different paper type is called a "grade," and this does not refer to quality level, as in Grade A, etc. You could just substitute the word "type" for the word "grade" in our terminology.

Since there are so many filter designs, there are also many, many widths that the paper must be cut into. We call these widths "slit widths," since we must slit our big master rolls of paper into these widths.

There is almost an ifinite number of combinations of paper grade and slit width, so that we must almost always produce our paper to order, rather than inventory paper for the customer.

We carry some inventory in common sizes, but there is almost always some oddball slit width that we would not have anticipated, and this means we have to go back on the paper machine and produce a run of paper in order to cover the order for the unusual size.

tom

wain

who creates this mess?
you might think the common auto engineers ( Honda Toyota ) would use off the shelf industry standard stuff
while BMW etc try to create an image and have a unique product?

Same with Batteries too

fleetwoodsimca

Makes no difference WIX way you look at it, FRAM the best to the worst, PUROLATOR you just have to pick one out.
(That's WHICH, FROM, SOONER OR LATER) (:oÞ

opera_house_wk

It keeps out all the new competition. If I had the idea to make JIM'S Filters with the magnet inside as my sales pitch I would have a hard time. 1)The shelves are full of filters already 2)I would have to have a complete line of filters and multiple assembly lines for the different form factors 3) Distributors would only be interested in the price point. Its just too prohibitive to new competition. If you could have one assembly line, everyone and his brother would make filters.

zr2rando

That cracked me up!, glad we have a sense of humor on here!
see ya
Rando

ywilson

I have heard that people put a magnet on thier filters to trap metallic particles in the oil to keep them from recirculating back into the engine. Has anyone tried this or is this another wives tale? Would it affect the bypass valve in the filter? Thanks in advance.

opera_house_wk

I am also coming out with my toilet paper oil filter adaptor. No research yet, but I believe that aloe will also soften engine gaskets and make them supple. Should I use the low lint toilet paper? Something that soft wouldn't harm the engine.

Magnets I don't believe that in an engine there is a great potential for magnetic particles. You are more likely to see bearing materials that are non magnetic. Automatic transmissions are totally different, lots of steel on steel. There is lots of magnetic material there. I used to put five magnets in the pan of my 92 Explorer and I would have to clean them every 10 months cause they would be loaded. I believe these magnets got me another three years out of that transmission. My 97 Explorer came with a magnet in it and I added another two.

vwracer

YWILSON

I install a magnet on every engine I build. I use a cow magnet and hose clamp it to the oil pick up tube. Only problem you can't check or clean as it is inside the oil pan. I have taken engines apart later with these magnets and it is surprising how muck metal shavings they attract. I'm not sure but I would think that these metal particals would be trapped in a normal oil filter anyway.

gsleve

I use rare earth magnets on my filter its amazing how much wear metals are caught over time the oil filter can not pick these ferrous microscopic materials, additionally iron particls are removed from circulation these particles act as a co-catalyst to oxidation removing these from cirulation retards that process for a longer period of time, futher more you're removal of all these particles avoids abrasive wear within the motor

wain

whats the magnet picking up - the particles smaller than 10-20 microns the filter misses?

those are awful small.

ywilson

I go by the motto, every little bit helps. I could not see ant harm coming gut just wanted to be sure of the benefits. Seems there are more thanenough to justify it.

fleetwoodsimca

Anybody know anything about an XG series in Fram filters?

harry31

Lots of auto oil magnets out there. For instance, take a look at: <http://www.thebeartrap.com/>.

or

Usual disclaimers...

zr2rando

My Chevy trucks have a magnetic drain plug already.
When the vehicle was new there was some buildup on the plug but now there is barely any debris on them any more. Adding another magnet at the filter might catch some more, but I can't imagine it being very much, and theoretically it would only be the microscopic stuff anyhow, ( but as stated above,,,every bit helps, for all the reasons mentioned already)
Seems like everyone is wearing magnets on bracelets/necklaces/shoes/knee wraps these days,
probably all going to start sticking to manhole covers before long...
I'd say if you have an extra magnet , stick it to the filter, it won't hurt anything
Good morning y'all
Rando

gsleve

whats in the surrounding area not what would be in oil cirulation magnets at the filter are better equip to perform this function as oil must pass through this medium first, additionally a vehicle only uses 2-3qts of oil in circulation not the whole sump, the remaing 2-qts are a built in reserve for normal consumption thereby the magnets at the filter can capture these particles more efficently than than a magnet at the drain plug

opera_house_wk

but they only work when the oil is still for a long period of time. The magnetic field decreases with the square of the distance and any motion of the oil is enough to prevent a magnetic particle from being attracted. The magnet at the oil filter is only picking up particles when you are sleeping. There is too much turbulence when the engine is running. That being the case, an oil plug magnet may be a little more effective. Here as the engine cools, a very slight flow brings new oil to the magnet as a result of oil density circulation. (like that ocean current stuff)