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Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?

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Comments

  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    Castrol CM 7317, Penske PN 7317, Supertech ST6607, Pennzoil PZ-109, STP S-02867(old series), S6607(new series), ACDelco PF2057, Bosch 3323, Motorcraft FL821, Purolator L14612 or L14610 or L14620, Deutsch D370, Fram PH7317, NAPA1356-----
    All of these are cataloged as being appropriate for the Nissan 3.3L V6 engine. I use my choices from this list on my 1998 Pathfinder and my 2000 Villager.
  • joffficerjoffficer Member Posts: 169
    I noticed in the above message you listed a bunch of filters, including the two that are supposed to fit my Hyundai Elantra GT. Will the others work on my car (as long as they are not to big)? I guess what I mean is, are the threads and gaskets the correct size... in the right location?
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    If your vehicle takes the 6607 than you can use the above filters and in addition the Mobil M1 110, or the K&N HP 1010 (This is what I use). However based on your vehicle the Pure one is PL 14459. That is not the equivalent of the Supertech 6607

    http://www.pureoil.com/NewFiles/ecat_frame.htm

    I would recommend you find a Purolator Book at Advance Auto and check the one for your car and then go to page 930 in this cataloge and look for another filter with the same diameter, relief setting, and hed size/design. I tried to do that for you yesterday but someone riped off their Manual. I'll try to check it out in the next week. If you don't hear from me- Email me. Old age/forgetfulness must be setting in!!


    Al

  • pluto5pluto5 Member Posts: 618
    Agree with you. I've used Fram oil and air filters for over 30 years with no discernable problem. I like the newer ones with the black sandpaper finish on the end which makes them easy to install and remove by hand.

    Is Fram any worse than the aftermarket filters used by the quick change shops? Understand that these wholesale for about $1 in volume.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    If you change your oil and filter every 3000 miles it makes no difference what you use. You will get 100,000 + miles out of the engine.
  • opera_house_wkopera_house_wk Member Posts: 326
    The FRAM PH series has a low flow rate when the oil is cold and goes into bypass mode (no filtering). This is due to the small surface area of the filter media and the small number of holes in the center core. The small number of holes in the center core is by design to limit the cold flow rate and prevent collapse of the pleats. There is a vertical row of holes for every 3 pleats so the oil doesn't have an easy path. In the used filters I have taken apart, I found filter media pushed through these holes, in essence blocking them, and further examination the oil pressure had burst a hole through the filter media at most of these locations. No other filter has ever shown this problem. I fully believe that you can easily go well over 100K with only a crude wire mesh filter like the old Volkswagons. Still if you are going to buy a filter, why not get one that works better and is cheaper. Again, this is only in reference to the PH line. I found the XG5 a very good filter but a bit over priced. I do like that traction bottom FRAM has. Wish other makes would come out with that.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    There are instances where car 1 requires filter A, and a competing filter company says that their filter B will replace A for that car, 1. Now, the next guy looks up his car, 2. The book says use filter A. The competing filter company may or may not recommend filter B for this application. The point is, if you want to follow the filter makers' best recommendations for what to use on your car, you cannot just assume that the interchangeability is universal from vehicle to vehicle and from filter brand to filter brand.
    Some filter application books tell you this: Go to the exact application information listing for your car. Do not rely on a chart (or other source) that shows which filters are equivalent to each other. The information from that chart may or may not be appropriate for your vehicle.
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    I always insist that Wal-Mart swap the advertised Fram for a SuperTech. You have to hang signs all over the dash or they'll forget.

    Other than that, their $11.99 special is hard to beat. Wal-Mart house brand oil is Quaker State (until another company bids lower). If you buy the $15.99 oil change you get Quaker State or Penzoil bulk. If you buy the $11.99 oil change you get SuperTech bottled. There have been numerous posts on the oil forums that bulk oil can become contaminated over time. I prefer bottled.

    Other than that I don't feel strongly about any API rated SL/ILSAC 3 oil. My only rule in life is to stay away from Fram.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Wal-Mart finally has a 2002 filter applications book. Well, the SuperTech filter for our 2002 Kia Sedona minivan (3.5L V6) is the ST6607. I looked at one, and it is the smallest automotive filter I have ever seen! The diameter and length are both amazingly small. The overall volume occupied by the unit seems to be about 1/2 to 1/3 of the standard filter for our 98 Isuzu Trooper, and that one qualifies as a small filter in my book.

    If I want something bigger, I guess I'll have to look at the Purolator book to find a suitable filter of larger size. This filter just seems way too small to do a good job of filtering engine oil on a 3.5L engine.
  • joffficerjoffficer Member Posts: 169
    I just got back from Wally*World. After reading all the nice things about the Super Tech I compared the Fram 6607 to the ST 2808 (both recommended by the 2002 book) . Both mounts and gaskets looked the same size, but the Super Tech looked bigger, and felt heavier.....sold. Not to mention it cost $1.97 compared to the $3+ for the fram! With the Mobil 1 5qt jug I bought my oil change is under $16 !!
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    One of my local Wal-Marts has 'em for $17.88 (about $3.60/qt). jofficer, it sounds like you got 'em for even less than that?

    Actually, I returned 2 of them today. Tired of spending the extra $$ for "genuine" synthetic when I'm unsure of any extra benefits beyond a good conventional oil. For now, I'm sold on Chevron Supreme (but haven't used it yet).
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    As has been said before, if you change your oil every 3,000 miles, I don't think the filter matters much. You could probably bypass the filter with simple tubing and easily make it to 100,000 miles.

    But, once you see for yourself how cheaply Fram oil filters are made and you see that there are better filters out there for the same or less price, I can't see why anyone would continue to use the over-priced, inferior product.

    --- Bror Jace
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    Hasn't changed in about a year. I think the guy may have died. Hope someone goes down in his basement and checks on him.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Or 3 different ones?
  • wainwain Member Posts: 479
    Has some interesting info on the first page about GPM and RPMand when the bipass opens.


    http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-oil/lubrication-oilpart1.htm

  • wainwain Member Posts: 479
    This last point is the reason for this focus in clearances. Conventional wisdom is that particulate contaminates in motor oil smaller than 10 microns are too small to hurt anything. Say for example we have 30 micron clearance between moving parts separated by a 30 micron film of motor oil. If one or two 10 micron specs get in there who cares, they are in the oil bath and can not harm anything? Add a third 10 micron spec and if they line up and bridge the film they can scratch a bearing or cylinder wall. The old rule of thumb, particles smaller than 10 micron can't hurt anything may be obsolete! Troubling ain't it? Microscopic soot and metal particles work harden as they travel increasing their ability to scratch softer bearings and mark cam lobes, shims and cylinder walls. Because of their high surface area to mass ratio they also deplete the oil anti-wear additives without benefit to the engine.
  • joffficerjoffficer Member Posts: 169
    The price on the 5qt jugs started at $18+/-, but steadily went down over a couple weeks. I did notice It's SL rated, but I'm not concered about that. I buy enough for a year of oil changes, and wait for another sale... I've bought full synthetics for $5-13 (5qt jugs). That makes synthetic oil worth it the for me!
  • vwracervwracer Member Posts: 90
    That's the problem they are guessing about partical size. None of the oil experts, auto manufactors, or rocket scientist can agree what size particles do damage to an engine and what size are harmless. 3 microns,8 microns,13 microns? The experts can not agree among themselves so how can any of us amateurs know for sure? a few (10-15) 3 micron particals floating around your engine may not do any damage at all, but 50,000 or so 3 micron particals might be able to destroy an engine.

    As for FRAM filters. What is the problem with card board ends. If you put metal handels on a paper grocery sack that will not keep the sack from ripping.
  • joe3891joe3891 Member Posts: 759
    is the cheapest because it not going to make any difference,been doing it for 46 years with no problems except where to spend all the money i saved.
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    vwracer, I would much rather have paper media being reinforced/strengthened/held together by metal endcaps rather than cardboard ... especially when those filters are no more expensive. With Fram, you are paying extra merely for the name ... and your engine doesn't care much for advertising and corporate hype.

    joe3891, Times change, cars change. Lubrication issues in modern cars are dramatically different than they were 40+ years ago.

    --- Bror Jace
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    Extrapolating the ongoing concern over micro particulates, it is very logical to deduct that changing the oil and filter every 3000 miles just may be a very strong idea. IF the particles of dimensions smaller than oil-space clearances ARE of significance to wear, then 3K intervals for oil and filter replacement is logically better than ANY extended period beyond that. Now, we should use proper scientific procedures to map out the graph of considerations and find the OPTIMAL point for draining. (:oÞ
  • opera_house_wkopera_house_wk Member Posts: 326
    Sure, the dream is to filter to smaller sizes. Unfortunantly, I can easily see that happening at the expense of cold flow rate and/or longer periods of bypass. If it becomes a marketing issue, the customer may get what they ask for. Still believe that the car starting period is where most wear occurs. With reduced wear additives, getting the oil there as fast as possible is important. Changing the oil is the best way to get rid of small particles.

    In the machine tool industry there are many wheel around products that attach to the hydraulic oil system to clean oil. They connect these on to the machine for a day and then move them on to another machine. Think of a pump that attached permanently to the oil drain hole, pumped through a small micron filter and back into valve cover. You plugged it in over night every once in a while. It even pumped out your oil at change time. Any takers?
  • wainwain Member Posts: 479
    how the VW s of the 60s and 70s survived with only an oil screen? Can anyone explain that?
    The modern oils are better, engines still have 185 degree thermostats, and i think someone help me here - main bearing clearances are about the same - what in 60s ? - say 0.0005 ???
    I use only good (non Fram ) oil filters but I wonder about the VW screens - when did VW go to filters and why?
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    They required oil change at, I believe 1500 miles. Also the cylinders usually did not go 100K. This is yet another argument that the highly efficient filter may not be as important as the hype.
  • opera_house_wkopera_house_wk Member Posts: 326
    have 10 or more quarts in the pan and no oil filter. Sure they got things embedded in the bearings, that's why the bearings were soft. Even back then, the idea was that the oil would keep the metal surfaces apart. I restore these old engines and I know guys that just stick some aluminum foil behind the bearings when they start to wear. More engines get retired for ring and valve problems than bearings.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    Our past thinking and decisions are confirmed by results in the making. Clean oil and clean air are KEY features to engine longevity, and we see the deducible truth of that before us. I would far rather go for frequent oil changes with good quality filters than to risk extended drain intervals with theoretically appealing means coupled to extreme micro filtration that may not be a demonstrable advantage.
  • joe3891joe3891 Member Posts: 759
    When did the old cars ever have a 14 to 1 air fuel ratio,the new engines never had it so good,anything will work with oil that clean.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    What company actually markets/sells 'em? Who manufactures them?
  • frulefrule Member Posts: 82
    Purolator makes 'em.Available at Advance on sale for $4.96(reg.$5.99).
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    I thought Purolator was just a brand name or something?
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Our 3.5L V6 Isuzu Trooper and 3.5L V6 Kia Sedona appear to use the same filter. E.g. Purolator L14459 and Pure One PL14459. The Trooper filter is horizontal, while the Sedona is vertical.

    What kind of differences can the mounting angle have? Should I be using the same Pure One filter on both a horizontal and vertical application?

    I seem to recall something about the mounting angle and the type of drainback valve being important things to consider together, but I'm quite fuzzy on this and unknowledgeable about these things in general.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    Well, a vertical mount really does not require an anti drain back valve as there is no need to hold the oil back, gravity will do that. To me this is the best as it is much easier to change and no worry if the drain back valve ever fails. Can also pre fill a new filter if you wish withoug spilling any during the screw on
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    After cutting open several filters over the past few months with varying degrees of mileage on them I am beginning to feel that they are pretty much worthless in collecting dirt and wear metals. Why, well, if you scrape the paper element and basically get nothing up that means that either the dirt and wear metals are imbedding in the paper or there really isn't a whole hell of a lot of stuff being thrown into the oil, or at least what the filter can capture. .

    So, if you have a clean well running engine the filter may be nothing more then a anti drain back valve and a bypass valve but the filtering part of it is pretty much useless. So, if we talk about quality filters maybe we shuld only look at the valves, the paper may turn out to be useless.

    Comments?
  • vidtechvidtech Member Posts: 212
    i do not think you would see a 10-20 micron particle if it were on the end of your nose.if you see anything without magnification in the filter,the engine would probably be on it's last legs.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    You have to believe in filters as a matter of faith. What if your engine depends on that? (:oÞ
  • opera_house_wkopera_house_wk Member Posts: 326
    Normally, filters don't pick up very much. Just had a Jeep with blocked PCV that that created sludge. One third of the filter element was thickly covered with this granular sludge. Other than these rare cases, you could easily go much longer periods with the filter element. A large surface area is still needed for cold flow. All the check valves I've seen except the silicone ones deform and stop working. So, you still have to change the filters if that is an issue.
  • vwracervwracer Member Posts: 90
    artdm

    That is the very reason I personally would never consider an extended oil drain as the synthetic crowd seems to think is OK. OIL GETS DIRTY, AND MUST BE CHANGED. On my drag race VW I have a high dollar OBERG oil filter. This is a filter that has a screen mesh that you take apart and clean and use again. You can look at all the dirt and metal shavings to see what is going on inside your engine. When I build an engine I will run it 5-6 minuets on the first start up then drain the oil and inspect the filter screen. It would shock you how much crap there is after only 5 minuets on a rebuild. With this OBERG you will see every red thread that came from the shop rags you use to wipe your hands and clean those parts .
  • frulefrule Member Posts: 82
    Purolator is a division of the ArvinMeritor conglomerate.They claim to have made the first auto filter.Like Champion,Wix,et al,they make under other brand names.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    So true. I just can't handle the extended drain thing. Many years ago, I let my 1985 Olds 88 wagon (Custom Cruiser) accumulate 10K on full synthetic. I still have guilt feelings. (:oÞ
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    My Camry has just had its 21st oil change at 143,000 miles which is about one every 6800 miles. Last 5-6 years it has consistently been at the 7,500 mark and once at 15,000. In early life it was obviously changed more often. Not truly extended drain but in between I guess. On one car I go 12,000 consistently and two once a year, one 8-10,000 miles the other only 5000. So far analysis has been fine.

    One has to build up a level of trust regardless of what product you use, of course, the easiest way to go is 3000 mile changes and use whatever.
  • wainwain Member Posts: 479
    Synthetic folks never answer the question what about water and acid build up?

    Filter does not take those out.

    I like to replace the oil tho if I was in a very cold climate I would use syn.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    Yes, my oil analysis has a print out for the water as a % of vol. In all the anlysis I have had don I have never seen this % to be anything greater then < .5%. Non existent.

    As to acid, define acid? Are you looking for a specific test result here? My TBN has always been fine and the TBN is a measure of the oils ability to combat acid. Thus, in my experience neither of the factors water, or acid has been a problem. Of course, a synthetic TBN is around 10-12 whereas dino is in the 3-6 range, a significant difference
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    Of my 5 cars and trucks in the family, 3 are low miles per annum usage. I have elected to change oil and filters in the range of 3K, and contemplate stretching that, but just never quite reconcile such action. Filters are so small at this point in automotive history that I am uncomfortable with them going extended miles.
    We put a lot of short haul mileage on these vehicles, and acid resulting from water accumulation under these conditions must be considered.
    I can change the oil AND the filter three times for the cost of one analysis, thus nullifying that option as a waste of time and money.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    A waste of time, money and hurts the environment as well. I know that is not what you meant .. From a cost perspective you are correct, on the others I think the 3000 mile change loses.Time, hassle, waste, and is it really necessary rarely come into play
  • wainwain Member Posts: 479
    The nation probably needs to go to a 4000 miles oil change. Would save a lot of oil.

    people say well 3000 miles works, well 1500 miles used to work too.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    The fraction from which motor oil is derived is reputed to be waste oil remaining after the valuable stuff has been refined off. I know it is popular to say that changing oil frequently creates environmental harm, but I don't see that as being exactly realistic. We are using wastage for motor oil that otherwise would be what? Poured down an old well throat and returned to the earth?
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    wain, the TBN of my Red Line oils was 4.5 after 7,200 miles and 5 months of use. Anything above 2.0 is decent and indicates very little acid present so I have no regrets. Your PCV system should get rid of moisture once your engine is up to temperature. It's the short trips that are a problem in this regard.

    I've always though that the long drain intervals called for in Europe have been driven by their fear of vast amounts of waste oil. It's not the first time an industry has been burdoned by questionable pro-envirnomental science.

    A drink of 5W20 anyone? >;^)

    --- Bror Jace
  • wainwain Member Posts: 479
    -my Infiniti suggests 3750 changes
    -if Jiffy lube wants 3k changes that prob too low for greed reasons
    - i think we need more pro environmental regulation - not less - I was sorry to see the congress not improve the CAFE gas mileage standards - Detroit and all the texas oil men want everyone in a 14 MPG 5000 pound SUV. It uses up my grandchildrens gas.
    -
This discussion has been closed.