"that is allowing Honda, Nissan and Toyota to resist rebates."
Say what? Nissan Quest $2,500 rebate. Toyota Sienna $750 rebate. Honda Ody $500 marketing support. Rebates on many of their SUV's as well. All within the last year.
Interesting statement :=) There's nothing wrong with that....it's allowing yourself to pay more than is reasonable that is the problem.
When Toyota takes advantage of a weak minded "greenie" that has their mind set on buying a Prius no matter the cost...
Getting as much as possible from a buyer is hardly limited to Toyota. The demand for a Prius does not come from nowhere. You may not agree with the basis, but I don't agree with your basis for the demand for diesel.
I consider adding $3k on top of the price of a Honda Odyssey gouging.
Gouging occurs when one is forced to pay a premium for something they "must get then". Doesn't apply. Those paying $3 over could go buy a T&C or other crappy vehicle. They choose to pay more for quality. They must think it's worth it. Go figure. I see no context for ethics here.
I imagined with the heat you would be out on the water to keep cool.
I have been, on my kayak and sailboat, but I come in occasionally :=)
I said resist, not eliminate. Notice what other automakers I compared them to. Context is everything, you're trying too hard to "misunderstand". If you think that H, N & T are equal (or even close) in giving rebates to US makers, you're not paying any attention.
With the employee pricing incentive, the rebates slacked off a bit. And incentives aren't rebates, right? :-)
If MSRP's are lowered (as they have been for the '06 Mountaineer), then Detroit may indeed wean itself off rebates. For a while.
over could go buy a T&C or other crappy vehicle
If I get another minivan, I'm sure going to shop DC vans. Although it sounds like everything is going to be either a monster truck/van or crossover by the time I start looking to buy again.
I was certainly counting the employee pricing thing as rebates, your smiley is accurate :=)
Lowered MSRPs are the same. The only way Detroit will wean itself off rebates, it seems, is to curtail that annnoying dependance on sales :=)
I think you should shop DC, for sure. I actually put a few Detroit offerings on my longer list when shopping for an SUV back in '00. They didn't last long tho, even at many thousands less. But we should always keep checking, they may make it a contest some day for those not just shopping for price.
With the employee pricing incentive, the rebates slacked off a bit.
That is a fact. My partner that just bought a Envoy Denali felt like he was cheated by the family promo. He always buys through his brother at GM. They cut the rebate from $4500 down to $3000 and he had to pay $1500 more than he was planning on. So it was kind of a slap in the face to employees. Then again it may keep them working a while longer.
li_sailor, That isn't you in the video clip of a kayak getting slammed by a killer whale?
That video, while fun, is fake (done for a TV commercial in France). (link)
Reports from the various Prices Paid discussions show that good negotiators were getting better deals before GM went with set pricing via the Employee Discount.
I have been in Kachemak bay in a 27 ft boat with a killer whale swimming around. I know I would not want to be that close in a kayak. They are about as predictable as a grizzly bear and have capsized good sized boats. Pretty good digital effects.
The Promo made it easy for the dealer to say that's all folks. I got about a grand more from the second dealer I dealt with. The first one was playing too many games with financing. I told him it was cash and he kept coming back with a monthly figure. Second dealer understood I had my checkbook and wanted to deal. I got the hybrid for $1000 more than the same truck without the hybrid option. So far I really like it. Very quiet and the XM is great.
I also bought a 2005 Passat TDI. I think we will sell it when the odo reaches 7500 miles. It is fun to drive. We really don't need 4 cars for two people. We are looking for a practical car to run errands maybe tow behind the new Sprinter RV we are getting. Time to retire and travel you know. The Sprinter is a maxi-van that gets an honest 22-25 MPG. Not many mini-van owners are getting that kind of mileage.
Killer whales look big even in a 27 foot boat. I have no substantiation only urban legend on the flipping boats. It would be easy for one to come up under a dory and flip it in the air.
maybe that is why El Cerrito and Oakland Honda are selling accords at 2000 prices
I would rather have a 2000 Accord at 2000 prices. They were much better looking.
Glad your back, holding off the hoards from the East is not always easy. I'm headed to Victoria, BC for a week, so you got it. I think I may have Internet access in the hotel though.
In just the past 3-1/2 years, we've gone from Ford Windstar minivan, to '02 Tacoma DoubleCab PreRunner truck, to '02 Sienna minivan, to '05 Nissan Pathfinder SUV.
No, not itchy wallet. Kids!
I think it really depends on your needs: # of passengers, cargo/hauling requirements, etc. Both minivans fell apart (probably because of car chassis roots), but were more useful people movers. Both trucks held together better, but had less interior people/cargo space. Fuel economy & auto insurance were similar for all.
The Windstar was plagued with engine/transmission/reliability problems and recalls since New. This was the most Unreliable car I've ever owned, but it had the most comfortable Seats! This car spent more time in the shop than on the road, just like the problematic Taurus/Sable car chassis/engine it was built on, so we traded it for some of that mythical Toyota reliability...
The '02 Tacoma DoubleCab PreRunner V6 SR5 TRD was Awesome! That truck was rugged and built Tight, even after lots of off-roading it ran like a champ till we traded it in. Only drawback for us was the cramped interior, especially when our 2nd child was on the way! Which is why we traded it for...
The '02 Sienna had brake problems, warped rotors, brake squeel, rattling side doors, and alignment problems since New, and developed engine oil gelling/sludge after a year. The dual zone AC was nice. Although a good people mover with useful interior cargo space, the 2nd/3rd row seats were a Pain to take out/put back in, and we were Very surprised at This Toyota's many Problems! The oil gelling was especially Alarming since I change oil religously every 3K with quality oil on ALL my vehicles, even if manual recommends longer intervals! This Sienna generation was built on the Camry chassis, same 3.0L V6, with only drum brakes in the back. Stay away from it! We switched gears and traded for a...
Brand New '05 Nissan Pathfinder SE 4x2, 4.0L V6 w/ 270 hp & 291 ft*lbs. Oh my... this engine... Wow! This VQ40DE flat out Hauls! And the truck frame is very rugged so far, yet handles easy and rides comfortable like a car! Even with its Big 265/70R16 tires, which came in handy over these horrible pot-holed streets, rural dirt roads, and these recent rain storms which completely Washed out some of the roads! And what impressed me wasn't even in the brochure: vehicle came with separate engine oil and transmission oil Coolers, tow hitch receiver, tri-zone AC, adjustable foot pedals (i'm tall, my wife's not), low tire pressure warning, full analog gauges, the list just goes on, there's too many good features to list!
Anyways, listen up. Happy driving and ride safe... no matter what vehicle you're in!
Great post, good info. You've certainly run the gamut. Interesting how much you like the PF, I know about their build quality, I had an '01 for 3 years...not a thing wrong with from buy to sell.
My 2 friends both bought Windstars ( 1996 and 1998 )...and both were chagrined at the numerous major and minor problems. They ended up selling and getting other minivans. One got a Toyota sienna 2004, the other got an Odyssey 2003.
Another friend bought a pilot..and still another got a acura MDX. They all love their vehicles now.....
Anyways, listen up. Happy driving and ride safe... no matter what vehicle you're in!
what, you mean that it is the driver, not the vehicle ??
good points..... and amen to the safe driving, happy driving...
"Just check gas price, thank goodness I got rid of my SUV earlier."
You know I always hear people using gas price$ as an excuse to buy or not buy this or that particular model... Ok if it was an H1 Hummer compared to a Prius Hybrid that's a Big difference! But if we're only talkin a couple of MPG difference (ie SUV vs Minivan, 16 vs 18 mpg city) that only translates to what maybe $15 to $19 at the pump every month? Personally I'd pay the extra $19 every month for a vehicle that I Really enjoyed! Know what i'm sayin? Hell that's less than what I pay Blockbuster every month on Late fees! GRrrr..
And those who don't drive trucks aren't absolutely a danger to society? Please explain your reasoning behind such a ludicrous statement...
Those who do not drive trucks are following reasonable and best available safety measures. It all is not in absolutes, it is about doing everything practically possible.
If you do not need to be a danger, and still are, then my statement applies.
And in all pro S.U.V. arguments - were does having low accident avoidance properties and dangerous bumpers and body structure come into play? I like large, practical cars as much as anybody, and what I spend on running costs is my business, but what is the reason for them to be exempt from safety laws - other then the profit motives of those peddling them to the brainwashed insecure masses?
Please explain your reasoning behind such a ludicrous statement...
I forgot to mention: anybody who disagrees with me in even the smallest of the details and is not my wife obviously does not know what he is talking about.
Just buy a minivan. It is a better choice for a large family car.
Well, that certainly settles it! I guess we can move on to even more exciting and interesting SUV vs. MV issues.
The second sentence was on topic. :P
Pardon my sarcasm, but just look at this post when a guy questions my (or anybody's else for that matter) manhood based on driving a minivan: that exactly the type of pathological insecurity I was talking about. Perfect illustration proving my point.
And nobody would argue about SUV beeing more dangerous on the road due to them not adhering to car safety construction rules. That is well proven by accident statistics. It is a hard fact.
guess what, the really smart people have decided to live close to work(a short commute). to me cars are deficient in safety, not the other way around. bof has been around for a long time. it is car design that has ignored that. i do drive a focus for my commuting most of the time.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Any suggestions on why??? my chevy 1500 conversion van cuts off why driving at 60 + mph but will start up again travel another 200 feet shut down again and continue to do so. The longer you stop the longer it will then travel without cutting off. Only happens during 100 + miles drives. :
In case you're wondering where your message went, I deleted several postings that were off-topic, impertinent, rude, hostile or a combination thereof. I insist that we stay on topic and conduct ourselves in a civil manner.
Quote: "Those who do not drive trucks are following reasonable and best available safety measures. It all is not in absolutes, it is about doing everything practically possible."
Based on your statement (which I quoted above), you are clearly implying that those folks who do drive trucks are not following reasonable and best available safety measures and as such, are a danger to society (I know you didn't originally make that comment about being a danger to society but since you quoted it in your reply (#923), you are implying that you agree with that statement). I drive a SUV, which many folks would consider the equal of (design-wise)--if not worse than--trucks; does that mean I'm not following reasonable and best available safety measures, and therefore, a danger to society?
And lest you continue with your pro-car sentiments...a vehicle--whether it be a compact, sedan, minivan, truck, or SUV--is only as safe (or, as dangerous) as the person operating it. People can talk all day about how unsafe SUVs are due to their inherent design, but the bottom line is this--there are more cars than SUVs out there...therefore, the odds are greater that any vehicle accident (solo or otherwise) incurring property damage and/or injury will most likely involve a car (i.e., not a truck or SUV).
Moderator--I can't understand why my other post was deleted, yet you allow post #923, where the poster clearly implies that truck drivers are a danger just because of the fact that they are driving a truck. I mean, a drunk driver in a minivan--or any car, for that matter--can fairly be construed as being a greater menace to society than a non-drunk, competent driver in a truck, no?
Just buy a minivan. It is a better choice for a large family car.
Tell that to the parents of the children that have died when the mini-van doors flew open and ejected them. Mini-vans are not built as well as truck based SUVs such as the Tahoe or Suburban. If you can afford throwaway vehicles buy a mini-van. If you want a vehicle that will be around 15-20 years from now buy a Tahoe or Suburban. Even the better built mini-vans like the Odyssey do not hold up under rough usage like a Suburban or Land Cruiser. Mini-vans are just a car chassis with a big honkin box attached. Not built for durability.
" It is 3 times more dangerous to get into a single car accident in an SUV than a minivan"
Those numbers don't mean jack. Did you ever stop to think that the driving characteristics of the person behind the wheel may have something to do with the difference in fatalities? Driver error and poor judgement are the result of the vast majority of SUV fatalities....same as with minivans or any other vehicle. The difference is many SUV owners get behind the wheel and think they can drive a little more aggressivley(or wrecklessly) than the laws of physics allows.
For eighteen months beginning in 1993, NHTSA investigated rear liftgate latches found on all Chrysler minivans, produced between 1984 and 1995. Affecting 4.1 million vans, the latches fail to hold the rear liftgate even in moderate crashes. Unbelted passengers are ejected through the rear. In some instances, seats come loose and are ejected with the occupants buckled in them. NHTSA stopped counting deaths associated with Chrysler minivan latch failures in July 1995. At that time the agency knew of 37 deaths and 76 injuries; more than half of whom were younger than twelve; more than three-quarters younger than eighteen. NHTSA engineers determined that this was a safety "defect that involves children."
And nobody would argue about SUV beeing more dangerous on the road due to them not adhering to car safety construction rules. That is well proven by accident statistics. It is a hard fact.
Maybe no one in your world would argue with you. They would in mine. Because of the extremely broad brush used to paint the term SUV, even a PT Cruiser is considered an SUV, I have been more specific when using the term. There are SUVs and there are wannabe SUVs. Many of the wannabe's are "unsafe at any speed", to steal a phrase from one hack writer. According to the Insurance Institute the Suburban and Tahoe have a VERY good safety record. As does the Land Cruiser. In fact the aforementioned SUVs are considered safer than the safest minivan by the IIHS. Those are the people that pay for accidents when they happen. Here are the facts. YOU are safer in a Truck or truck based SUV than any minivan on the road. You can risk your children's lives in a minivan. I'll protect mine in a Suburban or PU truck.
Did you ever stop to think that the driving characteristics of the person behind the wheel may have something to do with the difference in fatalities?
Good point! Unfortunately, there is little evidence to support the notion that there are significant or substantial distinguishing characteristics between drivers of the various classes of vehicles.
Those numbers don't mean jack. Did you ever stop to think that the driving characteristics of the person behind the wheel may have something to do with the difference in fatalities? Driver error and poor judgement are the result of the vast majority of SUV fatalities....same as with minivans or any other vehicle. The difference is many SUV owners get behind the wheel and think they can drive a little more aggressivley(or wrecklessly) than the laws of physics allows.
Sounds to me like there are a lot of bad drivers in SUVs. That's a reassuring thought!
So Chrysler minivans had a rear hatch problem (between 1984 and 1995) and now, in your eyes, ALL minivans are death traps?
ummm, yeah....ok
If you were talking about sliding doors on minvans you might have interested me, but 4 million of the most popular minvan over a 10 year period starting 20 years ago? c'mon gagrice...you're reaching
Sounds to me like there are a lot of bad drivers in SUVs
I think it is a lot of bad drivers, buy a lot of bad SUVs. Show me some facts that the Suburban, one of the original SUVs, are less safe than ANY minivan. In favor of the minivan is the fact that they are safer than most of the midsized cars, such as the Accord & Camry. I'm not the one here making rash statements about what others choose to drive. I am just stating for me and mine I want the safest vehicle for the conditions I am driving in. In Southern CA where more than 50% of the vehicles are SUVs & PU trucks, I feel safer in a like sized vehicle. While in Victoria BC last week I rented a Camry. With the conditions, polite drivers & low posted speeds I felt safe driving a small car. Everyone should base their vehicle buying on their needs, not what someone tells them they should buy.
If someone were to ask my opinion on buying a Mitsu Montero or Suzuki Vitara vs a Honda Odyssey or Grand Caravan. I would recommend the either Odyssey or the Caravan over the aforementioned SUVs. If they need AWD go for the Dodge Grand Caravan 4WD.
If someone were to ask my opinion on buying a Mitsu Montero or Suzuki Vitara vs a Honda Odyssey or Grand Caravan. I would recommend the either Odyssey or the Caravan over the aforementioned SUVs. If they need AWD go for the Dodge Grand Caravan 4WD.
One also should look at the way SUV manufacturers advertise and market their vehicles. i.e on television you see big, powerful, agile machines...going thru rivers, over mountain sized boulders, thru the deepest forrest. Then you get some poor sap who believes in all that garbage and tries to take a hairpin turn at 60 mph.
When in the hands of someone with some common sense...an SUV is one of the safest vehicles on the market.
Comments
Say what? Nissan Quest $2,500 rebate. Toyota Sienna $750 rebate. Honda Ody $500 marketing support. Rebates on many of their SUV's as well. All within the last year.
Perhaps the only "gouging" is in Bay Shore?? :P
Interesting statement :=) There's nothing wrong with that....it's allowing yourself to pay more than is reasonable that is the problem.
When Toyota takes advantage of a weak minded "greenie" that has their mind set on buying a Prius no matter the cost...
Getting as much as possible from a buyer is hardly limited to Toyota. The demand for a Prius does not come from nowhere. You may not agree with the basis, but I don't agree with your basis for the demand for diesel.
I consider adding $3k on top of the price of a Honda Odyssey gouging.
Gouging occurs when one is forced to pay a premium for something they "must get then". Doesn't apply. Those paying $3 over could go buy a T&C or other crappy vehicle. They choose to pay more for quality. They must think it's worth it. Go figure. I see no context for ethics here.
I imagined with the heat you would be out on the water to keep cool.
I have been, on my kayak and sailboat, but I come in occasionally :=)
If MSRP's are lowered (as they have been for the '06 Mountaineer), then Detroit may indeed wean itself off rebates. For a while.
over could go buy a T&C or other crappy vehicle
If I get another minivan, I'm sure going to shop DC vans. Although it sounds like everything is going to be either a monster truck/van or crossover by the time I start looking to buy again.
Steve, Host
Lowered MSRPs are the same. The only way Detroit will wean itself off rebates, it seems, is to curtail that annnoying dependance on sales :=)
I think you should shop DC, for sure. I actually put a few Detroit offerings on my longer list when shopping for an SUV back in '00. They didn't last long tho, even at many thousands less. But we should always keep checking, they may make it a contest some day for those not just shopping for price.
That is a fact. My partner that just bought a Envoy Denali felt like he was cheated by the family promo. He always buys through his brother at GM. They cut the rebate from $4500 down to $3000 and he had to pay $1500 more than he was planning on. So it was kind of a slap in the face to employees. Then again it may keep them working a while longer.
li_sailor,
That isn't you in the video clip of a kayak getting slammed by a killer whale?
Reports from the various Prices Paid discussions show that good negotiators were getting better deals before GM went with set pricing via the Employee Discount.
Steve, Host
I have been in Kachemak bay in a 27 ft boat with a killer whale swimming around. I know I would not want to be that close in a kayak. They are about as predictable as a grizzly bear and have capsized good sized boats. Pretty good digital effects.
The Promo made it easy for the dealer to say that's all folks. I got about a grand more from the second dealer I dealt with. The first one was playing too many games with financing. I told him it was cash and he kept coming back with a monthly figure. Second dealer understood I had my checkbook and wanted to deal. I got the hybrid for $1000 more than the same truck without the hybrid option. So far I really like it. Very quiet and the XM is great.
You wound up with a hybrid? I was thinking you got into a diesel.
Steve, Host
Killer whales look big even in a 27 foot boat. I have no substantiation only urban legend on the flipping boats. It would be easy for one to come up under a dory and flip it in the air.
sounds like you are still spreading info on the brontosaurus....
Well...you do have to right to be misinformed ....
IT is still easy to gouge consumers...if you have a hot selling car like the Prius .
Everyone needs a break now and then.
why, thanks......
Someone has to refute the misinformation spread around about the evils of owning the vehicle you want.
LOL.... I agree....unless you own a Acura RSX with the "needed" vehicular requirements...
I did not say it was illegal just unethical. A term you like to use a lot.
well...some people are hammers, and see the rest of the world as nails...Any chance we can get him on the supreme court ?
Most of the automakers are selling better than last year. Honda is only selling well with their SUV & minivan line.
maybe that is why El Cerrito and Oakland Honda are selling accords at 2000 prices....there is an ad in the SF Chronicle about it....
I would rather have a 2000 Accord at 2000 prices. They were much better looking.
Glad your back, holding off the hoards from the East is not always easy. I'm headed to Victoria, BC for a week, so you got it. I think I may have Internet access in the hotel though.
LOL
Garrrrr!!
Steve, Host
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
In just the past 3-1/2 years, we've gone from Ford Windstar minivan, to '02 Tacoma DoubleCab PreRunner truck, to '02 Sienna minivan, to '05 Nissan Pathfinder SUV.
No, not itchy wallet. Kids!
I think it really depends on your needs: # of passengers, cargo/hauling requirements, etc. Both minivans fell apart (probably because of car chassis roots), but were more useful people movers. Both trucks held together better, but had less interior people/cargo space. Fuel economy & auto insurance were similar for all.
The Windstar was plagued with engine/transmission/reliability problems and recalls since New. This was the most Unreliable car I've ever owned, but it had the most comfortable Seats! This car spent more time in the shop than on the road, just like the problematic Taurus/Sable car chassis/engine it was built on, so we traded it for some of that mythical Toyota reliability...
The '02 Tacoma DoubleCab PreRunner V6 SR5 TRD was Awesome! That truck was rugged and built Tight, even after lots of off-roading it ran like a champ till we traded it in. Only drawback for us was the cramped interior, especially when our 2nd child was on the way! Which is why we traded it for...
The '02 Sienna had brake problems, warped rotors, brake squeel, rattling side doors, and alignment problems since New, and developed engine oil gelling/sludge after a year. The dual zone AC was nice. Although a good people mover with useful interior cargo space, the 2nd/3rd row seats were a Pain to take out/put back in, and we were Very surprised at This Toyota's many Problems! The oil gelling was especially Alarming since I change oil religously every 3K with quality oil on ALL my vehicles, even if manual recommends longer intervals! This Sienna generation was built on the Camry chassis, same 3.0L V6, with only drum brakes in the back. Stay away from it! We switched gears and traded for a...
Brand New '05 Nissan Pathfinder SE 4x2, 4.0L V6 w/ 270 hp & 291 ft*lbs. Oh my... this engine... Wow! This VQ40DE flat out Hauls! And the truck frame is very rugged so far, yet handles easy and rides comfortable like a car! Even with its Big 265/70R16 tires, which came in handy over these horrible pot-holed streets, rural dirt roads, and these recent rain storms which completely Washed out some of the roads! And what impressed me wasn't even in the brochure: vehicle came with separate engine oil and transmission oil Coolers, tow hitch receiver, tri-zone AC, adjustable foot pedals (i'm tall, my wife's not), low tire pressure warning, full analog gauges, the list just goes on, there's too many good features to list!
Anyways, listen up.
Happy driving and ride safe... no matter what vehicle you're in!
-tony22r
Apple Valley, CA 92307
One thing...how's the mpg in the PF?
getting a suv or minivan is a matter of personal needs and preference .
Those needs include style, image, etc....
You know that part ....
while minivans are getting better gas mileage now....SUVs are starting to get better and better mpg too....
nice history on your vehicles...
My 2 friends both bought Windstars ( 1996 and 1998 )...and both were chagrined at the numerous major and minor problems. They ended up selling and getting other minivans. One got a Toyota sienna 2004, the other got an Odyssey 2003.
Another friend bought a pilot..and still another got a acura MDX. They all love their vehicles now.....
Anyways, listen up.
Happy driving and ride safe... no matter what vehicle you're in!
what, you mean that it is the driver, not the vehicle ??
good points..... and amen to the safe driving, happy driving...
You know I always hear people using gas price$ as an excuse to buy or not buy this or that particular model... Ok if it was an H1 Hummer compared to a Prius Hybrid that's a Big difference!
But if we're only talkin a couple of MPG difference (ie SUV vs Minivan, 16 vs 18 mpg city) that only translates to what maybe $15 to $19 at the pump every month?
Personally I'd pay the extra $19 every month for a vehicle that I Really enjoyed! Know what i'm sayin?
Hell that's less than what I pay Blockbuster every month on Late fees! GRrrr..
When's the last time you rented from Blockbuster? They did away with their late fee policy about 4 months ago.
Minivans closer to 19 mpg city....SUV closer to 15 city. Though agree, it's a free country...drive what you like.
Those who do not drive trucks are following reasonable and best available safety measures. It all is not in absolutes, it is about doing everything practically possible.
If you do not need to be a danger, and still are, then my statement applies.
And in all pro S.U.V. arguments - were does having low accident avoidance properties and dangerous bumpers and body structure come into play? I like large, practical cars as much as anybody, and what I spend on running costs is my business, but what is the reason for them to be exempt from safety laws - other then the profit motives of those peddling them to the brainwashed insecure masses?
I forgot to mention: anybody who disagrees with me in even the smallest of the details and is not my wife obviously does not know what he is talking about.
Just buy a minivan. It is a better choice for a large family car.
Well, that certainly settles it! I guess we can move on to even more exciting and interesting SUV vs. MV issues.
tidester, host
The second sentence was on topic. :P
Pardon my sarcasm, but just look at this post when a guy questions my (or anybody's else for that matter) manhood based on driving a minivan: that exactly the type of pathological insecurity I was talking about. Perfect illustration proving my point.
And nobody would argue about SUV beeing more dangerous on the road due to them not adhering to car safety construction rules. That is well proven by accident statistics. It is a hard fact.
I wholeheartedly agree. I dearly miss leaving in a city with an excellent public transportation system.
Unfortunately (in this regard), I now live in S.F. Bay area, so ditching a car is not a frigging option.
But that is definitely off topic. (though I may continue complaining about the proliferation of dangerous semi-upright vehicles on the highways)
tidester, host
Based on your statement (which I quoted above), you are clearly implying that those folks who do drive trucks are not following reasonable and best available safety measures and as such, are a danger to society (I know you didn't originally make that comment about being a danger to society but since you quoted it in your reply (#923), you are implying that you agree with that statement). I drive a SUV, which many folks would consider the equal of (design-wise)--if not worse than--trucks; does that mean I'm not following reasonable and best available safety measures, and therefore, a danger to society?
And lest you continue with your pro-car sentiments...a vehicle--whether it be a compact, sedan, minivan, truck, or SUV--is only as safe (or, as dangerous) as the person operating it. People can talk all day about how unsafe SUVs are due to their inherent design, but the bottom line is this--there are more cars than SUVs out there...therefore, the odds are greater that any vehicle accident (solo or otherwise) incurring property damage and/or injury will most likely involve a car (i.e., not a truck or SUV).
Moderator--I can't understand why my other post was deleted, yet you allow post #923, where the poster clearly implies that truck drivers are a danger just because of the fact that they are driving a truck. I mean, a drunk driver in a minivan--or any car, for that matter--can fairly be construed as being a greater menace to society than a non-drunk, competent driver in a truck, no?
tidester, host
Tell that to the parents of the children that have died when the mini-van doors flew open and ejected them. Mini-vans are not built as well as truck based SUVs such as the Tahoe or Suburban. If you can afford throwaway vehicles buy a mini-van. If you want a vehicle that will be around 15-20 years from now buy a Tahoe or Suburban. Even the better built mini-vans like the Odyssey do not hold up under rough usage like a Suburban or Land Cruiser. Mini-vans are just a car chassis with a big honkin box attached. Not built for durability.
Huh? Whom would it be?
Sliding door "flew open" ?? With curtain airbag? What are you talking about? Elaborate.
It is 3 times more dangerous to get into a single car accident in an SUV then in a minivan. Anybody who drives his kids in an SUV does not love them.
Cold. Facts. Read NHTSA statistics on SUV rollovers and fatalities.
Get your facts straight.
Odyssey holds up under rough usage much better then any of this SUVs. It is MUCH more reliable.
Good website for you: http://www.suvrollovernews.com/
Those numbers don't mean jack. Did you ever stop to think that the driving characteristics of the person behind the wheel may have something to do with the difference in fatalities? Driver error and poor judgement are the result of the vast majority of SUV fatalities....same as with minivans or any other vehicle. The difference is many SUV owners get behind the wheel and think they can drive a little more aggressivley(or wrecklessly) than the laws of physics allows.
For eighteen months beginning in 1993, NHTSA investigated rear liftgate latches found on all Chrysler minivans, produced between 1984 and 1995. Affecting 4.1 million vans, the latches fail to hold the rear liftgate even in moderate crashes. Unbelted passengers are ejected through the rear. In some instances, seats come loose and are ejected with the occupants buckled in them. NHTSA stopped counting deaths associated with Chrysler minivan latch failures in July 1995. At that time the agency knew of 37 deaths and 76 injuries; more than half of whom were younger than twelve; more than three-quarters younger than eighteen. NHTSA engineers determined that this was a safety "defect that involves children."
More to come....
Maybe no one in your world would argue with you. They would in mine. Because of the extremely broad brush used to paint the term SUV, even a PT Cruiser is considered an SUV, I have been more specific when using the term. There are SUVs and there are wannabe SUVs. Many of the wannabe's are "unsafe at any speed", to steal a phrase from one hack writer. According to the Insurance Institute the Suburban and Tahoe have a VERY good safety record. As does the Land Cruiser. In fact the aforementioned SUVs are considered safer than the safest minivan by the IIHS. Those are the people that pay for accidents when they happen. Here are the facts. YOU are safer in a Truck or truck based SUV than any minivan on the road. You can risk your children's lives in a minivan. I'll protect mine in a Suburban or PU truck.
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl.htm
Good point! Unfortunately, there is little evidence to support the notion that there are significant or substantial distinguishing characteristics between drivers of the various classes of vehicles.
tidester, host
A BIG SUV/PU truck. I would hate to get run over with that even driving a Hummer2. Better beef up the minivan before taking on this one.
http://wheels.luxist.com/entry/1234000490021225/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/10/AR2005081002378.html
Sounds to me like there are a lot of bad drivers in SUVs. That's a reassuring thought!
ummm, yeah....ok
If you were talking about sliding doors on minvans you might have interested me, but 4 million of the most popular minvan over a 10 year period starting 20 years ago? c'mon gagrice...you're reaching
LOL
I'm going to run right out there and model my life after her. :-)
I think it is a lot of bad drivers, buy a lot of bad SUVs. Show me some facts that the Suburban, one of the original SUVs, are less safe than ANY minivan. In favor of the minivan is the fact that they are safer than most of the midsized cars, such as the Accord & Camry. I'm not the one here making rash statements about what others choose to drive. I am just stating for me and mine I want the safest vehicle for the conditions I am driving in. In Southern CA where more than 50% of the vehicles are SUVs & PU trucks, I feel safer in a like sized vehicle. While in Victoria BC last week I rented a Camry. With the conditions, polite drivers & low posted speeds I felt safe driving a small car. Everyone should base their vehicle buying on their needs, not what someone tells them they should buy.
If someone were to ask my opinion on buying a Mitsu Montero or Suzuki Vitara vs a Honda Odyssey or Grand Caravan. I would recommend the either Odyssey or the Caravan over the aforementioned SUVs. If they need AWD go for the Dodge Grand Caravan 4WD.
The Toyota Sienna has AWD also.
When in the hands of someone with some common sense...an SUV is one of the safest vehicles on the market.
several minivans here have 5 star crash test ratings
SUV: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/NCAP/BASC2002/suv1.html
most of the big SUVs have only 4 star crash test ratings
Chevy Tahoe gets 3 & 4 and Suburban gets 4 stars