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GM ENGINE KNOCK

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    ricschricsch Member Posts: 540
    Today after I changed oil in my Silverado (and refilled the engine with oil), started it up and slid underneath the truck to check for any leaks, I heard a slight knocking in the engine. I assume this is normal? When standing near the engine compartment, this particular noise isn't heard. Can anyone tell me if they too have noticed this?
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    xyz71xyz71 Member Posts: 179
    If your engine is 1/2 as bad as you say it is then why the hell don't you quit bitching about it and get your dealer to do something about it.

    The way you make it sound your pistons are coming up through your dash.

    If your dealer is not giving you any satisfaction - find another dealer.
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    Brother,

    Did you just fall of a turnip truck? I've been to three (3) different dealers a dozen times, countless unanswered calls to GM customer (no)service, requested and promised regional service advisors (never happened), Better Business Bureau (total Bullcrap), State's Attorney's General (forget it), private lawyer's offices($$), etc., etc. But you'd know that if you took the time to read the entire thread before you opine. I forgive you. But please don't insult me (bitching?), because you're too indolent to research just this one thread--not to mention all the others.

    Yah, my pistons do sound like they are going to come out through the dash. If you'd like to hear it, I'll have you over. Nobody else will come. What's your point other than to call the rest of us with real issues, "bitches"? If the dealers were doing something about it, I wouldn't have to hear uninformed, inane, curt responses on internet forums such as the one you just posted. I'm not enjoying this.

    I can't believe people like you that drop in here with their parachutes strapped to their rear-ends like they're some kind of authority on the topic. Get real. Get educated. Try to keep an open mind--it's a sign of intelligence.

    I'm curious as to why you even bothered to post. Do you own a knocking-GM product? I think not. Or, did you just come in to stir the crap? You failed to mention--we're waiting....
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    PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Let's back off the personal stuff, OK?


    We don't need it. If you disagree with what someone posts, that's OK. If you go on to question their intellect for posting it, that's NOT OK.


    Back to the trucks!




    PF Flyer

    Host

    Pickups & News & Views Message Boards

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    allchevyallchevy Member Posts: 28
    Lets remember who "created" the design and subsequent quality control problems in these GM engines.
    Not you,not me, and not the dealer who sells them.
    It appears some consumers can live with it, some, like me, it really irritates.
    I don't think it's unrealistic to expect from a manufacturer that has built so many engines to continue to build a quality product equaling or exceeding yesterdays, no doubt that was their intention.
    When they don't, consumers (aka customers), especially those with an automotive background will notice...and rightfully say so.
    How much lost sales will GM want to absorb before they deal with their knocking engines?
    I have a nieghbour who works in parts at a GM dealership, he suggested the soloution maybe a brick on the gas pedal.
    What does that say about the responsiveness of GM management to internal problems?
    I'm not going to destroy my engine to resolve an issue - I want to own a truck to be proud of, and it should come with an engine that does'nt have to be torn down and rebuilt at 600 miles - that's when mine started knocking.
    Think that's too much to ask GM ??
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    PF Flyer. I fully appreciate and respect your position. At first, I didn't realize you were our host. I apologize. I've never posted anywhere so regularly for lack of a worthy cause such as this. For my part, I will comply. I believe we can speak freely without hurting each other.

    I have researched this issue extensively and more needs to be done. I don't consider my posts to be baseless "complaining". I love to hear others' opinions. I like when others respond to mine. I wish, however, more posters here would challenge me on the issues, not the personality.

    I will agree that my writing style can be caustic to some. I use colloquialisms frequently and I suspect it comes from addictive-listening to various talk radio.

    Allchevy, you are correct. The dealers are as much victims as we are and I've heard that many fear what might happen if this issue gathers momentum. That said, I'm not willing to let them completely off the hook. They made a profit on our purchases. They have a responsibility to us. They're our avenue to GM management. They must be organized and your post gives me the idea of contacting perhaps the GM Dealer's Association--if one exists. I understand that not all dealers are marching in step with this farce.
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    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    You guys are absolutely right. Why should someone have to put up with a truck that sounds like a paint shaker just because GM claims that it is "normal". Do you think that many people would buy a GM truck that sounded like that when they drove it off the lot? Do you think that they will be able to sell their trucks?

    The sad part is when GM offers an extended warranty (engine only of course). Why would someone want an extended warranty when GM won't honor the original warranty? Isn't this just a slap in the face? Aren't they saying in essence "We know your engine knocks, but you are just going to learn how to live with it!"

    And how many people drive their trucks 100,000 mi in the first five years? Doesn't this mean that the extended warranty that GM begrudgingly offers is REALLY just a 5 yr warranty? The Tundra comes STANDARD with a 5 yr warranty that covers the entire powertrain (not just the engine).

    It all comes down to dollars and cents for GM. They are going the cheap way out. If it angers their long term customers - so be it. This does not bode well for the long term viability of GM when they treat their customers so shabbily. Every warranty they deny is a permanent convert to another make.
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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    "And how many people drive their trucks 100,000 mi in the first five years? Doesn't this mean that the extended warranty that GM begrudgingly offers is REALLY just a 5 yr warranty? The Tundra comes STANDARD with a 5 yr warranty that covers the entire powertrain (not just the engine).

    So that you may be a little more informed on your next post. I'd like to correct you on a point regarding the extended warranty. I have a 6 year/100k mile, bumper to bumper, $0 deductible Major Guard warranty courtesy of GM. Is this a little better than Toyota's powertrain warranty. Think so. Bottom line, fix it or not, I don't figure to incurr any out of pocket expenses for 6 years or 100k miles whichever comes first for any type of repairs other than maintenance items.
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    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    Don't you read this topic?

    rayt2 Feb 19, 2002 1:48pm

    Wake Up Oby!!!
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    ...regarding the warranty. I've found that most people are indeed getting "engine component only" and it covers only catastrophic engine failure. You live with the knock, oil burn, emissions, etc. That is all that I was offered by GM and it was 5 years/75,000 miles. I turned it down. Forgive me but the way you question Bama, did you think that we're all getting the Major Guard?

    I don't know of any others who were given the Major Guard like yours. Do you? Also, did you have to waive anything in writing to receive that?

    I know that you said you were a squeaky wheel and perhaps you pushed them to higher terms with verbal skills that most people do not have. Almost all business today is ran on this principle. Most people will not fight. So they only buy-off the ones that persist. I'm sure that most of us who have wound up posting here have been through the GM customer-service merry-go-round.

    I knew a man who had millions of dollars and drove a big-old Cadillac. Would never buy a new car. I could never understand why. Now I do.
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    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    Although Oby is the proud owner of a lemon GM truck, he claims it doesn't knock (one of the few things that hasn't gone wrong with his truck - SO FAR!.

    Sort of blows his argument all to heck - doesn't it? What can he be talking about? He must think he is in another topic such as "Lemon GM trucks"
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    Oby, is that true? You don't knock? I'm sorry if I misunderstood but if that's true, that might explain why you're not as convicted as us purist knockers.


    I guess you could call that a little strange, Bama. But I've concluded that Oby is an unusually positive thinker. I wish I were more often. I have a feeling he is on the side of the consumer--in his own way. You've apparently unearthed the reason he received the Major Gaud warranty. GM must feel bad for all his non-knock defects.


    Reminder: Everyone should visit Gmpistonslap.com http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/gmpistonslap/index.html I hope you all have that in your Knock-site favorites.


    On the message board there (very interesting), you'll find that Truck Trend (Motor Trend) has interviewed a GM rep regarding the knock issue. Here is copy of the post:


    "I received my latest issue of (Motor Trend's)Truck Trend Magazine May/June issue, and they have a section called "Truck Trend Garage" The article is named "Vortec Engine Noise" A reader wrote in about his 2000 Chevy Silverado making a loud engine knock when it's first started. I won't go on with any other details of his questions. But Motor Trend's reply is amazing and they know what side of their bread is buttered on. They said they spoke with Matt Kester, assistant manager with GM Powertrain Product Communications. They went on to say that GM is aware of this "situation" and are currently in a research stage and believe the cause is carbon buildup on the circumference of the piston above the top piston ring. The article goes on with more BS with GM stating that no structural damage can occur from the carbon buildup. There was nothing said about the Piston Slap DEFECT in the article and I was really hoping that Truck Trend was taking the first big step in bringing the defect to the publics attention. I'm not sure if access to this article is available through the Internet. I like this magazine because they have great articles,first drives of the newest trucks and the list goes on. This article is so one sided it's unbelievable and a huge disservice to it's readers. I'm hoping they have a website so I can try and bring the Piston Slap Defect to their attention and maybe they might have the brass go-nads to investigate this further. "


    Please visit that board and take part in the fight to bring the real story to the media's attention.


    Thank you,

    NomoreGM (Damn, I like my user name)

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    xyz71xyz71 Member Posts: 179
    I have been able to resolve every problem - with every car / truck that I have ever owned. This includes Toyota, Chevy, Pontiac, Honda and Nissan. I have also had warranty work done on a Yamaha motorcycle and a Merc outboard. I just tell them the problem and they fix it - if they don't fix it to my satisfaction - I have them try again. If need be I get management involved. I have never had to go get a lawyer, take anyone to court, cry to the BBB, wine to the states attorney general office or even threaten to take these measures. If this means I just fell off the turnip truck - then maybe you should go straight to the nearest turnip farm and try and get the next truck out!!!

    If you have really --"been to three (3) different dealers a dozen times, countless unanswered calls to GM customer (no)service, requested and promised regional service advisors (never happened), Better Business Bureau (total Bullcrap), State's Attorney's General (forget it), private lawyer's offices($$)"

    with no resolution to your problem - then you need to get yourself a backbone and learn how to stand up for youself. Maybe take a class or two in how to not let people walk all over you and treat you like a looser - My God - even my 13 year old daughter can take something back to the mall and get her money back if she is not happy with the purchase.

    Maybe you could get your mommy to call the dealer. LOL

    At least your posts are worth something - a good laugh.
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    losangelesemtlosangelesemt Member Posts: 279
    Funny how it seems like just yesterday the host was reminding people of their conduct in here. NomoreGM appears to have a legitimate gripe and as a matter of principle, he is determined to seek a satisfactory resolution. Resorting to calling him names and the likes seems inappropriate.

    I find it very unfortunate that a consumer can go through the appropriate channels and still end up where they started, so to say. Although Bama has been known to stir the pot at times, I think his last post or so raised some valid questions. GM did make a profit on these trucks, and at the very least should have a moral obligation to appease their customers. Most good businesses can satisfy the customer without having to pull out the papers and briefcases.

    I don't know if there's sufficient proof that the questioned knocking will lead to engine failure. Even if it's not proven, there's still the matter of principle with many folks. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I happen to agree with Allchevy and NomoreGM. This doesn't mean that you have to curse GM for life, but it certainly isn't in the best interest of future business for them.
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    losangelesemtlosangelesemt Member Posts: 279
    Are you sure your Chevy is really knocking ?? Just wanna make sure you're not having flashbacks to the back seat of that old Camaro of yours lol.
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    kg11kg11 Member Posts: 530
    Like Oby,I got 6/100 $0 deductable and I certianly will drive 100k in 5 years,but you're right about one thing.I wouldn't have even taken it out on a test drive,let alone bought it if the engine knocked when it was new.If GM don't replace the knocking engine in the next 5 years I'll warm it up (it only knocks when COLD) and trade it in,but PLEASE don't try to convince me that a small 1/2 ton with a small V8 can do the work of a 3/4 ton with a BIG engine.If Toyota introduces a REAL 3/4 ton I'll look at it otherwise I'll shop around and HOPE my new Ford or Dodge don't knock in just a few months.

    kip
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    allchevyallchevy Member Posts: 28
    So xyz71 how did you get GM to fix your knocking engine?
    America needs more educated consumers like you that understand the product they purchased should deliver the quality promised.
    Just because GM is a big outfit,doesn't mean they can define what is normal to suit their convenience.
    Will corporate greed win out over the citizens who financed the very company that ignores them?
    Stay tuned to the "American Band"
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    ryanbabryanbab Member Posts: 7,240
    I am still waiting to hear of any engine failures or any problems causing our trucks to break down due to these knocking engines. I have heard 0 stories.

    Then Ill be worried. Until then ill keep enjoying my truck
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    rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    Needs to be put to good use and aimed directly at GM. The knock is NOT NORMAL....period! Sad thing to see Truck trend quote a GM Techie otherwise. But as was stated it's obvious who spreads the butter on their roll, can't bite the hand that feeds you theory.
    If my knock had reared it's ugly side prior to N.Y. State lemon law mileage limitation of 18k I would have persued the buy back, for now I can only document what service dept. states on service ticket and HOPE that this issue will be resolved. I can send all the letters I want to publications, attorney genaral, BBB etc., etc. but until a larger voice speaks up GM will do nothing but throw a bone (extended component warranty) to the (whiner) who complains. Toyota's sludge problem started in 97, look how long that took before an admission by the manufactorer, if that's any sign, We GM owners will have quite the wait for an admitted fix (or didn't they already admit to that)?

    I would not have bought the truck had the "knock" been present at purchase, common sense would have prevailed on that one, but for now I can only spread the word of the BS GM is selling and not purchase anymore of their products till the problem is resolved. In the long run I am nothing to GM because of the length of time I keep my vehicles. On the other hand look at the side saddle tank issue that came back to bite them, ya think maybe............... stay tuned !

    Ray T.
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    jaguar0027jaguar0027 Member Posts: 387
    Nice post and I agree with you 100% I too did NOT have the knock upon purchase and have been given the same run around by the dealer as well as GM.

    I also agree that all of this energy should be focused at GM and not each other. Why not help each other out with this problem instead of taking cheap shots at one another....
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    xyz---Apparently my post was upsetting. I'm sorry. I'm also sorry but nobody appreciates being called a [non-permissible content removed] or a "whiner", unprovoked (post 503). Please respect my right to be unsatisfied with GM. I'm not the only one here who is.

    I strongly suspect that GM employees visit these forums and I would invite them now to respond to me anonymously stating their employment as such. I do not work for or have any connection with the auto industry.

    I'm still curious why you avoid the questions of import. You've been asked twice now (post 504 and 518), if you have or have had a knocking "GM" product and if/how you used your lilting, preeminent tact to successfully get it fixed.

    Further, when someone "wines" as in "wines and dines", it usually refers to a libation made of grapes, stomped repeatedly in a tub with one's feet. When someone, "whines", however, it's more likely a deleterious grinding "noise" emanating from under the hood of their brand-new GM vehicle. I'm afraid spell check doesn't catch them all, my friend....

    Kids today..."no respect". I actually look like Bill Murray.
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    kg11kg11 Member Posts: 530
    Good post.I agree,It isn't normal for a new engine to knock.If a manufacturer claimed "new technology" that actually improved fuel economy and engine life was the cause of the knock ,and advertised it nation wide.Thier sales would plummit.Unfortunately for us,BBB is buying into GM's BS .BBB is encouraging us to accept extended warranties because the knock is said to be only "a nuscience"and knot a defect.

    kip
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    I did not know that. Toyota made them wait about 4-5 years? Sheeez! You can see the business logic in stalling. Imagine how many consumers bailed out and went unwarranted. I think Ford's piston-slap debacle lasted 2 years. I'm not sure about Subaru and Jeep. I'll find out.


    One bit of good news is that LS1's GM-knock petition is back up again (however not available at the moment--keep trying). There are currently 325 signatures there and counting. Most of them (95%) are LS1 5.7 liter but GM pick-up truck owners are encouraged to sign. We need more signatures. Please do and pass the word occasionally. It's a great site. Thanks.


    I just received an e-mail reply from, Dave Hagen, a techy at AERA (American Engine Rebuilder's Association). Here's a copy of our correspondence:


    "Dear Dave,


    I'm doing some research on piston slap. Is it normal, etc. Do you have any info. Please let me know.


    Thank you, Nomore"


    His brief reply:


    "http://www.remanufactured-engines.com/page4.htm

    The above site may offer some insight.

    Dave Hagen"


    Sounds like he's trying to tell me something--as in, "get it remanufactured".


    Not good.

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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    This link is at the LS1 petition also: It's the piston-slap (negative) court judgment. Please, after you read it, help me because I don't understand why owners sued Jeep when they were given repair options.


    http://subscript.bna.com/SAMPLES/pld.nsf/85256269004a992085256113002144e4/a89850e7cc22397885256a090003822d?OpenDocument

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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    Always have--cool. I guess the shoe fits me as far as the moron thing goes as well. All my freinds call me a moron for buying a GM vehicle.

    "Now I know why tigers eat their young."
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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    #510 of 526 ObyWannaTundra by bamatundra Apr 21, 2002 (04:28 pm)
    Don't you read this topic?

    rayt2 Feb 19, 2002 1:48pm

    Wake Up Oby!!!

    ROTFLMFAO!!

    If I didn't read it why would I be posting in it? DOH!!

    I have one GM truck that does knock. I also have one that doesn't. So what's you point? My Major Guard still beats that Toyota powertrain warranty now doesn't it?
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    GM likes you better because you're a "fleet" customer. Besides, only 50% of your GM's knock. 100% of ours do. Seriously tho, can you get me one of them Major-Gaurd doohickies? I ain't having no luck.
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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Like my post to bama states that I have one that knocks and one that doesn't. To help understand let me explain a bit further.

    I bought a '99 Silverado. 2 weeks and 300 miles later, I return it to the dealer cause they misrepresented the truck. I wanted power windows, power doorlocks, and body side molding all which they agreed to install after I bought the truck. What they did was install aftermarket items which was not specified in the purchase agreement. Needless to say, they took the truck back. I then get a'00 model which is what I should've done in the first place.

    Being an early '00 model, it still had a lot of the quality problems as with the '99 first year edition. Knowing this, I had figured that none were serious or had any safety implications. What I needed to do was to get the truck qualified, at least in GM's mind that I had a lemon on my hands. So I took it in for every conceivable thing that I thought wrong including three sets of new tires, which, btw, we ended up trading for a set of Michelins. Long story short, I was able to create a file 2" thick at my dealership. At that point I filed with the BBB "looking for buyback" Did I mention that I had about $8k of mods in the truck by then? So I get a call from a GM rep based in Florida. He tells me under no circumstances would GM buyback the truck. I had replied that its a good thing that GM has no say in it, and more importantly, neither did he. So he goes and calls my dealer asking what kind of problems I've had with the truck. They told him that my file was 2" thick.

    Here's the good part. He calls the BBB asking if there was anything that they could do to convince me to keep the truck. I told the BBB I would probably be satisfied with a $0 deductible Major Guard... valued at about $2500. First he says no, then counter offers with a 5/100 $100 deductible. I told the BBB to ask him to try again or I'll see their regional rep at the hearing. I had by then met the regional rep a couple of times since my truck was in so much. He didn't want anything to do with a hearing. So I ended up with the 6/100 $0 deductible Major Guard. As far as the truck being a lemon, I really didn't think so. If I had, no major guard would convince me to keep it. So far I have 34k on the truck and no problems. What's funny is that I've had several friends drive the truck when it had vibration problems. None of them noticed any vibrations.

    My '00 Denali with the 5.7 has the knock like yours. For me I would consider this an issue but have it on a 36 month lease set to expire in January 2003. Therefore, I'll just walk away from it when the time comes.

    There is a lot of info out there on the web. Many don't use it only to find out later that the problem they are experiencing to be very common. If I had purchased the Denali, perhaps my story would be a little different. As it is now, I'm glad I didn't. Call me lucky, call me informed, one thing for sure I don't think I'll be getting another GM for awhile. And I certainly won't be getting a Toyota cause of the label that goes with the ownership not to mention guilt by association.
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    Hasn't Ralph Nader bought a Gip'M vehicle yet? What's his e-mail?
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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    out of the bag on this one. Site monitors have probably picked up your trail by now. Once labeled, tough to get anything out of GM without the assistance of an attorney.
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    jaguar0027jaguar0027 Member Posts: 387
    GM customer assistance. I explained to the girl on the phone that I have the 'engine knock' problem as well as the transmission slipping from time to time and a harsh shift between first and second, and downshift from second to first.

    Right away as soon as I said 'engine knock' she told me that GM is offering 100K warranty on the engines and asked me if that was fine. I said no because the transmission sucks too. I then gave her all my information (including the fact that I had the 'nickel plated slip yoke' installed last week) and I still have the problem(s).

    She told me that she is going to call the dealer tomorrow. After she calls them, she said she will call me back tomorrow afternoon and plans to offer me 6 Year 100K mile warranty on both the engine and the transmission.

    Question: Do you think I should accept this? I mean I know all of you guys seem to have got this (except you Oby with your Major Guard ;)

    I know these trucks have there issues but I use the truck for my daily commuter as well as a TRUCK and planned on keeping it for awhile. If I was to say NO to her offer, do you think GM will give me anything else? Or should I just accept the 'letter' and be on my way?

    Thoughts anyone...??? I have mine but just wanted to hear some feedback.

    Thanks!
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    And I'm glad for you. That is one advantage of a lease which many never consider. If they say it's normal, who cares? It's their problem. So technically then, you don't own a knocker. I'm jealous--Bama was right. If I had a lease I'd be "singing in the rain" right now.

    And chalk one up for the BBB. I'm still dancing with them. I had a conference call with BBB/Gip'M and Gip'M promised to call me for and appointment with regional. They never called. I'm going to arbitration soon--I hope. If Gip'M owns the American Arbitration Association too then I'll move to Afghanistan.

    I hope Gip'M is monitoring this stuff. If so, it's too bad they don't have the grit to join in. Perhaps some of the nasties in here are Gip'M's "SS". Fact is, they could give me master guard, buy my car back, and kiss my [non-permissible content removed] in the middle of town square on the 4th of July--still--NOMOREGip'M!

    The proverbial cat, however, is not out of the bag yet. I make it a point to tell as many people, everyday whenever car talk arises. I like to tell mechanics, salespeople, etc. I sit at my computer and E-mail gmpistonslap.com's flyers out. It's fun. I'm a mad man with a mission.

    I'll bet you tell-all too even with the lease. When this Knock/BS debacle hits the financial news, you might want to dump your GM holdings. Hmmmm...think I'll fire off a memo to CNBC and Fidelity, for starters. I just sent one to Ralph Nader--honestly. Fan the flames people, tell, tell, tell. Gip'M is sweeping this under the rug. I'm pealing the rug back. F'm. I've been to a few shareholder meetings. I know how pissed off those people can get. Gotta go, I'm off to the financial sites....
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    Don't sign away your future rights to a fix. I haven't seen any of these warranties but check the fine print. Don't accept it if it has a disclaimer regarding the knock. I would make sure that it's transferable also--in writing.

    Please, if one of you who has a letter would scan it in and post it, we can all take a look--delete your personal data.

    Thank you.
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    I'm sorry but this is relavant. The 3.1 engine is the one slapper that Gip'M committed to fixing by virtue of a TSB that they couldn't call back or deny. Sort of like going "12 feet out on a four foot board".

    This is from a poster at gmps.com:

    (Oby, I don't think it's a lease car...)

    "i own a pontiac Grand Prix, 3.1L, 2000 SE model, 58,000 KMS

    i just got back from the dealership (again) to have them look into the piston slap that ive had going on since about 35,000 kms.

    i was told by the dealership that they cannot address this issue at a dealership level anymore, that they would have to call in the GM area manager to look at my car. what a pant load..

    This same dealership approx 8 months ago did replace pistons 1-4, leaving 5-6 as is. The purpose was that they were to install teflon coated piston skirts to solve this proble (piston slap). Well its been about 20,000 KMS later and the slap is louder then it was originally. It is very un-settling to hear this as it makes me worry about the overall quality of the entire vehicle. ive wanted to sell this car for about 7 months now..and am finding it hard to "cheat" people and lie to them. im affraid ill be stuck with this lemon till it finally wont run anymore.

    my oil consumption is about 1.5 litres/5000KMS of driving, and as GM tells me is "acceptable"...and my gas mileage has dropt off approx 100 KMS per tank.

    my suggestion to solve this problem is simple..

    I WILL NEVER BUY ANOTHER GM PRODUCT AGAIN....EVER
    money speaks louder then i could ever type to the corporation..and good for them they lost another future buyer."

    one very disapointed customer
    mark giorgi

    People, that is why Gip'M doesn't want to fix our cars and trucks. It's useless to take the cheap route and too expensive to do it right. This man apparently had new pistons stuffed into a used block. I think that's a no-no unless you rebore the block--but then the pistons won't fit. So you need a new block. A new (remanufactured engine) for that car can't cost anymore than about $1500.00 delivered. Talk about moronic service. That is scary. GM will eat crow soon.
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    ndahi12ndahi12 Member Posts: 235
    I copied this from toyota's web site. They are giving an 8 years UNLIMITED mileage coverage on the V6 and I4 engines

    Toyota Customer Support Program Provides Comprehensive Coverage For Unusual Maintenance-Related Cases

    TMS-024-02

    04/03/2002 TORRANCE, CA

    Toyota Motor Sales, (TMS) U.S.A., Inc., today announced a new customer satisfaction program for owners of 1997 through 2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0 liter V6 or 2.2 liter 4-cylinder engines. Toyota is taking this action because a very small number of customers have reported engine damage from motor oil breakdown, also known as oil gelling or “sludging,” a result of oil change intervals delayed beyond the factory-recommended schedule. While any make vehicle can suffer from this condition if the oil is not changed often enough, Toyota has initiated this program to ensure owner peace of mind.

    To make sure that customers have absolute confidence in their vehicles, this program will cover repair costs and incidental expenses for which a customer has paid or could incur as a result of damage due to oil gelling for a period of eight years from the date of first sale or lease without a mileage limitation. In addition to the costs of repairs, reasonable incidental expenses, such as car rental, and other out-of-pocket expenses will be covered.

    This program replaces a previous special policy adjustment regarding oil gel damage, and extends protection against this condition well beyond the new vehicle powertrain warranty period.

    Oil gelling is not caused by engine design, but by the long-term effects of changing oil at intervals longer than factory recommendation. When maintained according to schedule, it is extremely unlikely that any vehicle powertrain will develop this condition.

    Lexus and Toyota will continue to communicate to customers the importance of assuring proper maintenance schedules for any automobile. Customers whose engines have needed repair in the past should contact Toyota at 888-802-9436 or Lexus at 888-654-6421 for details on obtaining reimbursement. In the very unlikely event that this condition should develop in the future, customers are advised to see their dealer to arrange for repairs
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    kg11kg11 Member Posts: 530
    I accepted the 6/100 on the entire drive train.I had a buyback claim with BBB and they warned me that if I go to arbitration I could end up with less or nothing at all.The arbitrator could decide the knock is normal just like GM says.My transmission has been replaced twice but GM says that's because Allison wanted them back for research.The third trans has shifted harshly a couple of times a few months ago and I took it to the dealer twice at that time. I tried to make them buy it back then but the dealer couldn't reproduce the problem and since then I couldn't either.I suspect they reprogrammed the TCU

    Bottom line-Engine knock is "normal" Transmission is "normal" take the warranty or take your chances with an "unbiased" arbitraitor.(BBB's advice)

    kip
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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    On another note, the decision of the arbitrator is binding on the manufacturers part and not on the owner. At that point you could file under the lemon law with or without an attorney.

    ndahil

    That is exactly the point that seems to piss the Toyota owners off. They insist that they followed Toyota's recommended oil change cycle and yet they have the sludge and now are being told by Toyota that it is the owners fault. If you consider over 3000 cars sludging I guess you agree with Toyota that its an insignificant amount. Course by percentage it is with 3,000,000 vehicles in question. I guess no one likes being called a liar even if Toyota is willing to pick up the tab.

    I also find it odd that the sludge topic has been shut down here at Edmunds. Ever wonder why?
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    bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    3,000 cars out of 3 million? That is .1% Do you think that GM or Ford have .1% of owners who do not change oil ever and cause sludge? Probably.

    It does not matter - Toyota stepped up to the plate with an 8 year warranty. Something GM could learn from with their knockers.

    Did GM admit they were wrong with the Lemon they sold you?

    You say there is no sludge topic? Wrong again, as usual.

    tmsusa1 "Engine Sludge/Oil Gelling--Toyota's Customer Response" Apr 3, 2002 4:40pm
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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    It's always easy to say that it doesn't matter. Course you don't own one of those 3k+ cars now do you.

    If you read through the initial and subsequent sludge topics you'd understand.

    Oh and thanks for the link. I wouldn't have bothered to search for myself. Just made it easier for me by doing the work....HAHAHA!!

    And if you've read any of it...there are owners that are not happy cause Toyota is still blaming them and redesigned the motor at the same time. Smell anything fishy here? And no were not talking about your upper lip....
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    Sheez! OK, I'll post accordingly. Toyota is doing the right thing by their customers, albeit after some time. It's standard practice for any business/individual (on advice from counsel) not to admit their mistake officially after closing a deal in order to protect their shareholders, sales, reputation, etc. Fact remains, some owners do not change oil--ever. If GM were to give me the same courtesy, I would allow them the same right not to self incriminate. If your car's being fixed, admission of guilt is sort of a moot point.

    It's funny again, however, that Automotive News took Toyota to task on the fact that they blamed consumers for sludge. Where is Automotive News on Gip'M's treatment of it's own fellow citizen/customers. Completely silent, that's where. That is where the focus of our anger should be, fellows....

    Just got done E-mailing the flyer a gmps.com to 20 New England area Ford Dealers. On to the Dodge site.... I'll take of the New England area. Anyone else want to help with their neighborhood GM competitors? Let me know so I don't repeat.
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    lotech1lotech1 Member Posts: 112
    "Plaintiffs Terry Hasek, Alan Block, and Mitchell Bianchin said that Chrysler did not repair their Jeep engines even though each had purchased a repair warranty when they bought their vehicles. It was revealed at trial, however, that when the Chrysler dealer asked Hasek to leave his Jeep overnight to be serviced, he refused."

    How friggin stupid can you get... refused to leave his Jeep overnight.
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    You know when people lose trust in a car dealer, they don't want to leave their expensive vehicles alone with them. I was told to bring my knocker in one morning after I requested to drop it off the previous night because the piston slap is a cold-start problem. I knew that I could lock it secure and nobody could touch it without my being there the next day as planned. They told me to come the next morning anyway. Then when I arrived, they said to leave it all day to cool down and I too got pissed (Hurd Chev, RI). He typed on the order: "Customer refused to leave vehicle". I knew he had me so I left it. Lawyers can twist a story like that to make the victim seam at fault.

    Then after two days there, they gave me my 3rd "it's normal" routine and had never even drove the car, which is what GM's attorneys accused Dr. Wong from MIT of not having done--(another stupid mistake), thereby negating his testimony. I believe that case was handled poorly by the plaintiffs and the court had little or no choice but to find for the manufacturer. Fact remains, Jeep did offer warranty relief to consumers and I think that weighed heavy on the Judge's decision.

    The auto-service industry behaves sometimes like they still partially own the cars that we bought. They often exclude us from the repair process (for insurance reasons [BS]). Then you get your car back and it's full of dings, oil drops, power-steering (paint-stripper) fluid, etc.
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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    "Then after two days there, they gave me my 3rd "it's normal" routine and had never even drove the car"

    I'm curious as to why you continued to try and get your service from a dealer like that driving yourself crazy?
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    Trying to keep these posts short and pithy. That dealer, Hurd, was the 3rd different dealer I went to. It doesn't seem to matter where you go. The routine is the same. I'm running out of dealers in my area. I also requested a buick (GM) dealer but they didn't want me to bring a Chevy in for warranty work regarding the knock. It's very frustrating. That is why I resorted to the BBB. I am on my day-off right now and I have been on this computer since 9:00 AM (4 hours) researching and posting. I think I'll crack open a beer....
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    losangelesemtlosangelesemt Member Posts: 279
    A man on a mission lol ... Good luck to ya bud
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    This is a truncated excerpt from an article in the Providence Journal (RI), Auto Answerman (M. Perry Howarth, Jr.), March 6, 2002:


    It's titled: "Malibu's motor makes well-known noises".


    "I own a 2000 Chevrolet Malibu, 3.1, purchased new. It has developed sort of a piston-slap sound since the cold weather. When the car heats up, it disappears. I presented this problem to GM and they said that all 3.1's in the GM line present that problem in cold weather because the pistons were replaced with aluminum pistons, so until the engine heats up this sound will occur, but no damage will happen.


    This does not sound right to me. Have you heard of this complaint and is he on the level?


    J.R. Smithfield, RI


    Answer:


    GM has had an ongoing piston-slap problem with their 3.1 engine for some time. As I understand it, it is because they are using a polymer (plastic) compound in the piston skirt. They issued bulletin #010601010A in June 2001 notifying their dealers about it. I do not know of a cure." end

    Again, it seems like only the back pages of the papers/magazines are talking and you can see by the Auto "Answerman's" brief response, he does little research and he has no "answer".


    I did just a little research at the Automobile Engine Rebuilder's Association, for example. Here is my latest correspondence from Mr. Dave H., technical advisor:


    Dave, thanks for the link to Re-manufactured.com. Can I assume that you're saying piston-slap requires a rebuild? If so, do you know of any in-depth literature on the subject. Nomoregm


    His reply:


    "No real literature describing noise and rebuild. If the problem is indeed because of excessive clearance between the piston and cylinder bore, the only way to repair that condition is to correct that relationship between the piston and cylinder wall. Rebuilding is one way, a brand new engine is another, but, who can afford that? http://repower.org/


    Dave

    I replied: "Apparently not even GM can (or desires to) afford that" and sent him the gmps.com link.

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    ndahi12ndahi12 Member Posts: 235
    What difference does it make if Toyota admitted culpability or not? The FACT remains that toyota stepped up to the plate with an 8 year UNLIMITED mileage warranty on these 3000 enignes that are suffering from premature sludge.

    Admitting culpability will open Toyota to an endless string of lawsuites. No corporation can afford to do that.

    Moreover, Toyota is using EDMUNDS to communicate with its customers. I have read most of the TMSUSA1 (Toyota) responses and they are answering questions by the hundreds on that thread. Where is GM in this thread? GM does not even want to acknowledge the numerous problems with the Rado.

    Toyota is doing what is right with its customers. All the customer has to do is change their oil 1 time a year on the range of affected engine andf they will qualify for the 8 year warranty. All the customer has to do is show a reciept that he/she did their own oil change or a mechanic did it for them. I think that is very generous on the part of toyota.

    Moreover, the 8 year warranty applies to more than one engine that is sludged. Let us say I purchase a camry V6 and it sludges at 12K and a new engine is placed. Then the 2nd engine sludges at another 12K. And then a third. All these engines are covered under the 8 year warranty. That is a company that is standing behind its product. So what if they do not admit culpability. The customer still has a warranty for 8 year and Toyota will pay for it.

    Which one would you choose, GM admitting culpability for the knockers and not offering an 8 warranty or offering the warranty w/o admitting culpability. I know that nomoregm will chose the latter.
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    lotech1lotech1 Member Posts: 112
    I lost trust in all forms of car repair. But I still have to follow their requests (when reasonable) so I can hang them out to dry when they try to ream me. MIDAS and Firestone were the worst I've dealt with. They find stuff to repair/replace and then dispose of the worn parts before I could check them out myself (former mechanic). Every time I had them fix my car I asked to see the old parts. Funny how they disappeared before I got there. I'd take a nickel for every "out of spec" brake drum they've reamed people on. MIDAS tried to replace an exhaust pipe on my Corolla every time they worked on my car. I looked at it and could tell it had many miles of service left but they found a small section with rust so it wasn't serviceable. HA! It went another 10,000 before it developed a leak.
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    nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    Yah, I had my front-end rocker panels dented by improper placement on the lift at Firestone while changing oil in my Maxima. They would have got away with it if I hadn't been watching (like an expectant father thru a 1' square window in the service door--teehee)---$500.00 repairs, body shop, etc.

    Nadahi12: I'm going to go check that site where Toyota came on and posted. That is so professional of them. I've invited Gip'M in here but I guess when your guilty in this Country, your lawyers tell you to remain silent. Maybe Japanese customs are superior along with their product reliability. The Toyota site isn't closed but archived (over 5000 posts). We have a long way to go. There is a new Toyota-sludge site with only six posts currently. Perhaps Edmunds allows them to archive after they start doing right by the people--that's fair enough.

    And I'm sure that we are being monitored by Gip'M corporation right now. I wonder how it makes Gip'M spys feel to know that we know they are reading this. They do it for their own corporate benefit. They are like gutless peeping toms. They call themselves "professional grade". Professional-grade shysters. I'd compare them to "carnies" at the town fair but I don't want to insult the carnies.
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    rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    Send me your e-mail address (it's in my profile George! LOL)& I'll e-mail you the ext.component warranty GM gave me to "hush" me up! (that didn't work).
    Then you can post it here for all to see, and my name, rank & serial number can remain on it, I have nothing to fear of reprisal from lame duck GM. LOL !!!!!!!

    Ray T.
This discussion has been closed.