Nissan 350Z

dwilso39

Porsche is such a big as far as styling goes that the need to name the car 911-wannabe-350Z. Having said that, the specs look very impressive and the price is nice.

I just wish they would try to be more original

blueguydotcom

I know a guy with a WRX. It's a fun car to drive. He's modded it all over the place (new exhaust, chip, diverter, sway, strut tower, brakes, etc) and claims to consistently get 4.9 O-60 sprints. And that joker is anything but easy on the tranny. He shifts like a truck driver and drops the clutch at over 3k all the time. God, I'd hate to be the sucker who buys it used from him...

The horror.

speedracer3

Oh boy, talk about time, haven't seen you around since those heated Maxima vs. Passat discussions. I hope all is well with ya. Do you still drive that Passat with the funky wheels??.

obiwankenobi1

It still doesn't settle the fact that I beat a stock WRX wagon in my 02 (automatic) SE Maxima on a 0-60 sprint. And yes, the WRX was trying (twice, by the way). And yes, he could have been a crappy driver, but then again, so am I.

So, I am pretty sure a stock Z will beat a stock WRX (wagon or sedan). And I am not a WRX hater. As a matter of fact, I still sometimes wish I would have gotten one.

No sunroof. Damn.

Obi

blueguydotcom

I think if you run a stock 5 speed wrx v. a stock 6 speed z it'll come down to the driver. the two are so close from published tests that it doesn't seem likely either car would handily win automatically.

barresa62

Grassroots mag is "your" documented proof? This is somehow more reliable than Motortrend, Car & Driver, & Road & Track? Pretty weak there, my friend. Anyhow, I do agree that a 2wd (especially RWD) will take far more hard launch abuse than an AWD. :-)

Blueguydotcom: Good summation...I totally agree. :-)

Stephen

locke2c

I subscribe to GRM-- have you ever read it before attacking it? I won't waste my money on MT or C&D. R&T is so-so.

But that's neither here nor there-- I still don't see any documented proof of your claims, so nothing has changed.

-Colin

barresa62

Yes, I've read Grassroots Magazine. In fact, I read the article on the WRX from whence you quote the acceleration figures. No, I wasn't attacking it. Just quoting a single source is somewhat weak IMHO. The fact that I'm a fairly objective WRX owner, research, research, research, including my own timed launches, and that there are a handful of magazines (regardless how you personally feel about them) that have published considerably quicker times than you quote holds more weight than your Grassroots Mag "documented proof". That fact you admit you don't even care to cite additional sources is kind of self-serving.

Bottom line for me is that I'm not attacking you or any magazine you subscribe to. What I am saying is that I own a WRX, live with it day in and day out. It's not the ultimate gift from the Car gods but I do know its good and bad points, what it can and can't do.

Anyhow, overall, I think blueguydotcom summed it up best:

"I think if you run a stock 5 speed wrx v. a stock 6 speed z it'll come down to the driver. the two are so close from published tests that it doesn't seem likely either car would handily win automatically"

Stephen

locke2c

Stephen, I'm not self-serving I'm just grumpy. And maybe a tad opinionated. ;-)

-Colin

barresa62

Get to the chat tonight, if you can. I'm going to try and make it. It just might be the tonic for ya, LOL! BTW, I know a thing or two about being opinionated myself (or so say some of the people that know me.) :-)

Stephen

afty

Actually, it was a pair of Zs. I dropped off my Altima at the dealer this morning for an oil change, and I decided to check out the showroom before I headed off to work. Lo and behold, they had a pair of silver 350Zs sandwiched between an Altima and a Maxima. This car looks very nice in person, though I think silver is a bit too sedate for it. Some people have said that it looks big in person, but I thought it actually looked kinda small, perhaps because the Altima and Maxima next to it were both quite a bit larger.

Anyway, that's all I had to say. Just wanted to share my enthusiasm for this car.

pasdeclef

Yesterday I went to the nearest Nissan dealer in the Northern Virginia suburbs of Washington DC, to see if they had a 350Z in, just to look at. (The Nissan site said there was one there, so I thought I'd check it out). The (typically) greasy salesman said they had none in, and that all the ones coming in were pre-ordered. Okay, fair enough, I thought. Then I asked about the length of leadtime for getting one. Next February or March, he said. Well, that wasn't completely unexpected. He then told me that Nissan had prohibited dealers from charging extra (above the MSRP), what I call a surcharge, extra profit, or ripoff, but that THEIR dealer was offering "value" in exchange for the $3000 additional charge, to wit, free maintenance for 100,000 miles, and lifelong leather and paint car, and some vague "accessories" (like floor mats?). We didn't get into the details of the free maintenance, but I would be willing to bet some numbers wonk knows what % of free maintenance any dealer really does, and what % is done by your cousin Bill, or QuikyLube, or whoever. And what free leather care from the dealer is better than the same stuff out of a can from Economart? So this dealer is obeying the letter of the Nissan policy, maybe, but not the spirit.
Then we got into a discussion essentially about supply and demand. The salesman said Nissan was going to limit supply to keep demand up, not like Chrysler with the PT Cruiser, who initially kept supply down and then flooded the market, and now has a saturated market. Of course, the Nissan guy failed to mention that Chrysler sold a grunch of Cruisers. Well, I said, low supply is one thing, but if I decide I'm not going to play that game, and get some other car, then you've lost me as a customer. That, of course, generated a "tude", and he could have cared less whether I ordered one or not.
Fates willing, I have another year before I retire, and will watch what happens with this surcharge, which incidentally drove me away from Honda in '90 (I ended up with a Geo Prizm that I loved). Or I may decide to got back to Plan 1, which was the Audi TT.
I'd be interested to hear if others of you have had similar experiences. And might I do better if I go to a smaller city/town?

Gary

golfzilla

I had the same experience here in Tampa. The salesman was reluctant to give me a price stating "Our manager is deciding on charging about $5000 over MSRP because the demand is so high now."

I'm beginning to think this is part of their marketing ploy. They are only selling 20 cars a month for the rest of the year and saying they will not pre-order. The manager will just order a shipment, you get put on a list and when they arrive the cars go to the top bidders.

Screw that.

I'm going to wait a few months for the hype to settle down. If they are still overpriced I will look elsewhere or wait for the Supra which I hear will have a 400hp V8.

blueguydotcom

Look in other areas. Try freshalloy.com. I'm sure owners can point you toward dealers who are honest.

habitat1

You might try VOB Nissan in Rockville.

I live in DC and have generally found many of the Northern Virginia dealers to be sleezy. Especially Rosenthol and Browns. I did end up buying a Honda S2000 last fall from Sheehy in Alexandria and it was my first good Virginia car dealership experience. I dealt strictly with the sales manager.

I have a 1995 Maxima SE w/ 130k miles that I purchased new from VOB in September 1994, when they were still relatively hot as a new model. VOB's price was better than anyone else's and they did not give me any BS in the process. They have also been very good to deal with relative to service. I'm not sure they can get you a car any sooner, but at least hopefully they won't insult your intelligence.

Personally, I would not pay a premium for a 350Z, and I'm not sure I would even pay MSRP. IMO, the volumes that Nissan is shooting for will quickly require more aggessive marketing and pricing within the next year (or less). Although I wasn't in the market in late 1999, I am certainly glad I waited to get an S2000 until last fall. Got it at slightly under MSRP ($900 off), with all of the improvements that were introduced for the 2002 model year. With Nissan attempting to sell roughly 500% - 600% of the annual volume of the S2000, it's hardly going to be a rare commodity in a year.

P.S. Golfzilla - I also owned a Toyota Supra - if you think Nissan dealers are bad, try getting a new Toyota model without getting screwed.

jwilson1

We seem to be in the same boat (wrong metaphor, I know). I hope to get out of the rat race, too, pretty soon. Do you plan to AutoX yours, whichever y ou buy? I was looking at the TT and changed my mind when I saw the Z at the dealers. (If you read here very often you may recall my VERY enthused post back about 20 or so.)

Who, by the way, is making a point of announcing that they will not charge over MSRP -- (I don't know if there are any games to be played int he finance room) -- and he, too, is in the northeast: try Bancroft Motors in Worcester, MA, if it's at all in your neighborhood.

Now, don't expect intelligent or involved sales folk. They are order takers on this car right now -- the guy who I spoke with told me he prefers SUVs, and Nissan is only going to make "500 or so" available this year -- but if you're nearby, I have dealt with them before and their service staff and p olicies have been very fair and professionally handled.

They won't let you test drive right now without an order. But my guess is the owner, who loves fast cars (and I think does AutoX if I've got the right man) will have one and may make it available for those with "experience" who look like a sure bet. (THis is just a guess.)

I still like the TTs interior (any Audi's interior for that matter) but after seeing the Z, the TT looks kind of stubby to me and not so serious. (They also have pretty mediocre track results.)

Take care.
Joe W.

cdnpinhead

He who cares least always wins the negotiation.

Having bought both a '73 240-Z and a '91 Miata new, I'll submit that waiting pays. You don't have to deal with whatever first-year glitches there are, and all the "premiums" are history -- by then the factory will have cranked up, big-time, and the supply will have long since overcome demand.

Do what I say, not what I do. Given the above, you wouldn't think I'd buy a first-year Lincoln LS. Guess again.

bpraxis

Let me compliment you on your nice contribution.

jaserb

Cdnpinhead-
Having owned a 260Z with the same awful flat-top carb setup I know that glitches aren't always "first year" problems. The '70-'72 240s were much better from the fuel delivery aspect. Now that I've picked that nit, I completely agree with you on the general theory. A 2004 or 2005 350Z or G35 Coupe will be a fantastic car and a screamin' deal. I'm leaning towards the G35C myself, unless of course they decide to build a 2+2 Z.

-Jason

cdnpinhead

you're exactly right on the carbs. In my opinion, the '72 was the way to go, and I wasn't far into my second hundred thousand miles before I put a set on my '73. Good ol' SU's, just like my MGB.

Nice to see Nissan doing good stuff again.

msaralno

Good to see you here on the 350z board.

I'm also an LS owner who hung out on the LS board. Just bought a 350z. The LS for sporty comfort, and the z for pure sport fun. It's a nice combo.

sabre86

Now here is an example of just what Nissan did not want to happen: Our local Nissan dealer in Mishawaka, Indiana decides that a $2500 Market Price Adjustment needed to be added to the MSRP sticker, just because he happens to have a canceled order car sitting on his lot. Eat it bud!! I'm sure some unsuspecting fool will pay the priice to be the first kid on his block to own one. Must be a Notre Dame thing! This is the same ownership that does not know how to respond to a letter asking why his dealership doesn't reasonably negotiate prices on cars. I think I should be able to let him have my business for the five new vehicles our family has purchased since February, but apparently the compelling desire to "stick it" to the customer takes over during the rational thought process. Sad, very sad.

twylie

All this talk of early Z cars made me dig through some old photos. I was only able to find one photo of my blue '73 (w/ '72 carbs!)... Man, what a fun car.

I am considering a 350z once they come out with the drop top. I figure the wife will need a new car by then and it would look good on her...

-twylie

jaserb

My '74 was that color, with off white interior. Too bad the rust monster got it. I loved that car - and mine had '72 carbs on it as well, for what it's worth!

-Jason

tgoldc99

See the 350 uses premium gas...What octane is required ?

gsxrter1994

What you squids fail to understand is that the DEALER SETS THE PRICE (LOL)not the customer so if you want a 350z quit crying and go suck up the mark up.
If you want one you should of did want i did and preorder it for sticker.
I have been selling cars for yrs and all hot models will sell for over sticker for at least 18 mos.
Greedy whinning customers are much worse than greedy dealers

sailing216

Don't give post 878 any satisfaction.

tgoldc99: 91+ Octane

Anymore news on the convertible? Pics?

habitat1

Fair enough - except that I'll put big money - say $5,000 at even odds - that I can walk in and get a 350Z for at least $1,000 under sticker in less than 12 months from today. Arms length deal - I don't have a family member in the business.

Not that I'd buy one, but I am willing to bet that the 350Z is not going to be a hot car in the volumes Nissan hopes to sell. Certainly not in the same league as an M5, M3, CLK Convertible or even the 2002 S2000 which I bought last fall for $840 under MSRP.

So, do we have a bet?

P.S. I considered an M3 last year before opting to go with the S2000 as a third car. My hometown (PA) dealership would have sold it to me for MSRP and not a penny more, whereas virtually all DC area dealerships were looking to get a premium. Since November, 2001, I have referred no fewer than 6 business associates and friends to my hometown dealership to buy BMW's (mostly 5-series). The owner is elated, since they aren't that big or profitable of a dealership that 6 extra sales will go unnoticed. What goes around, comes around and as a professional I enjoy the opportunity to reward courtesy and professionalism. Too bad too many don't get that.

blacktalon

The 350Z will be a hot car, but they're planning on selling 30,000 of them in the U.S. alone. The only other high-performance sports car (as opposed to sports coupe) that sells in those volumes in the Corvette. It's not a limited edition car like the S2000 or even the M3.

With that many Zs on the market, dealer gouging should only be a problem for the first 6-9 months...

blueguydotcom

Um, Porsche sold over 30,000 911s last year and over 20,000 Boxsters.

snaphook

I actually agree with this point of view. Why should a dealer sell his cars for less than he can get? Do people sell your homes for less than the market will bear? A car dealer trying to get over sticker is no different than the buyer trying to get under sticker. I'm sure we have all purchased cars for under MSRP which is okay because the S stands for suggested, actual market price may vary. It just doesn't make sense to complain about not being able to buy something for under market value even though we would all like to. If you want to pay under sticker just be patient but you will still be paying market value.

gsxrter1994

All i am saying is that you have to pay to play for a while.
I paid msrp to the dealer i work for and did it galdly did because i wanted the car and paid for it.
remember there hasnt beeen any new z cars for yrs and DEMAND IS VERY HIGH.
Please quit the dealer bashing because it is unfair.

blueguydotcom

Please quit the dealer bashing because it is unfair.

Yeah, like Hitler bashing is unfair too, right? When stealerships stop employeeing denizens of hell, people will stop bashing them.

759397

Frankly I still don't see what all the hype is about with about 30k Z's slated for the US. Nice car but with that type of expected volume I pray there aren't that many suckers going to pay $2500-5k over MSRP on one. For that price there are better vehicles available.

Personally being a business guy, why wouldn't I sell a product for the most I can....if someone will pay that is what I sell it for. When they stop paying the high price, I lower it. It is simple economics really. We're talking a 2003 model, it is September 2002. Come June 2003 MSRP or less. Come September or October 2003, below MSRP, so wait. S2K's were going for crazy money too for several months. Currently you can find $1000+ below MSRP on one. The Honda also had less volume to move.....impacting the supply side of the equation.

cdnpinhead

is the point. If you gotta have the latest thing, and don't especially care if it has first- (or second-) year glitches, then you're the prey of this lot.

If, OTOH, you appreciate the vehicle and don't especially mind the one you're driving now, you have time.

He (or she) who cares least ALWAYS wins the negotiation.

plutonious

Has anybody been able to make a comparison between the Enthusiast model's 17" wheels and the Performance model's 18"s? Visually, are they distinguishable? What about performace wise? Would the 17"s be better if your roads were a little on the rough side?

tgoldc99

anyone have photos of the standard 17" wheels (7 spoke) for the base and enthusiast models...most photos only show the 18" (6 spoke or 7 spoke for the track model).

revka

Hi Folks- We very much appreciate the information you share with us; however, in accordance with our Town Hall rules, copy right protected materials should not be embedded into the messages here, so they can be viewed directly from this page. If you want to share a photo from another website (i.e. Nissan), please just post a hyperlink to the photo. Thanks!

In addition, we ask that if you do post a photo of your own, please make sure the size/width does not throw off the margins of our Town Hall pages... making it difficult to read the other messages here. Feel free to send me an email if you have any questions. And now, back to the subject of the 350Z!

Revka

Host

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nippononly

is not such a hot deal compared to other cars on the market, WRX comes to mind, and with this volume being built, JUST WAIT. Six months from now they will be selling this thing at invoice.

MSRP is the premium you pay to be one of the first people with the exciting new toy.

snaphook

>>Six months from now they will be selling this thing at invoice

I seriously doubt that.

blueguydotcom

I'd be willing to bet by October 2003 350 Zs will be selling below MSRP. Like all nissans the price will fall and probably close to invoice.

nippononly

is what the dealer charges ABOVE MSRP. There is no such thing as markup TO MSRP, is there?

OK, I will accept that - one year from now they will be selling this thing at invoice.

bpraxis

There is a distinct probability that our economy will move into a recession over the next six months. At the same time there is a proliferation of wonderful new products like the Z that will enhance the competition.

You will have a new TT next year with a V6, the new BMW Z 4 and coupe in the following year. The new Mazda RX8 will be coming on line in six months. And Toyota will also be releasing a new version of the Supra, the Mercedes SLK will be restyled, the Infiniti G35 coupe, new sports cars from GM, Pontiac Solstice,Chrysler Crossfire etc, etc.

Combining the factors of a lousy economy, people being layed off, one of the first cars to suffer is a sports car. And with the new competition we consumers will be blessed with many fine choices at good prices. If you dont believe this you may be caught up in the mania of your excitement which is understandable.

My prediction is by June 2003 you will be able to buy the new 350 Z with a $1500 discount off MSRP. If not more. Remember their production goal is 30,000 per year.

jwilson1

I haven't run into markups locally. One dealer seems to be making a half-hearted effort at it, but the salesman I spoke with seemed to be feeling the pressure of the other MSRP dealers hereabouts and indicated that "if you're serious, we can do a little something." (lol)

The fact is, demand isn't staggering in the northeast because winter is on the way. The first on the block crowd has all the preorders, and they're saying 90 days for a new order, but who the heck wants their new Z delivered in the middle of a Nor'easter next January?

Next Feb/March (big car sales seasons locally) there will probably be some competition for specific models, but by the time we see Oct. '03, or certainly by spring '04 we should see some serious negotiating possible.

In other news: I finally got to sit in one, a Touring AT (Absolute Travesty). Even at 6'2" there was real comfort and a sense of space. I had three inches overhead, and since I keep both hands on the wheel I didn't find the beltline any more uncomfortable than that of the Corvette, the TT, or the MR2. I love the length on the seat cushion. I'm not sure of why people are upset about the lack of luggage space; it's a sports car, ferchrissake. And actually it looks like it'll hold a lot more than the Miata or the MR2 which barely has room for a change of underwear (if your shorts aren't too large).

I was offered a test drive but turned it down as I didn't want to get into a sales pitch about an automatic car. I told him to call me when they get one in with the 6M. The salesmen still, by the way, are clueless. He had no idea there was no glove box or that the platform was the same as in the g35 or that the Brembo brakes were bigger or that the track car didn't have a bigger engine, or much of anything -- except that the car looks good in black. Heck, it'd look great in fuschia.

But I did get a brochure at last. So these guys are good for something. He doesn't like sports cars, by the way, he confided in me. His family has always felt they were "for girls." I didn't ask, but I'll bet they all drive Expeditions. Funny, but another moron.

Take care.
Joe W.

snaphook

The Z is already aggresively priced compared to its competition. It is more likely that these competing models you refer to will have to discount their prices before the Z.

snaphook

When I am in the market for a car I have always done extensive research before even stepping onto a dealership's lot. And, I usually know quite a bit more about the particular car I am interested in than the salesman. I am neither surprised nor bothered by this. All I want out of the salesperson/dealership is courteous service, an adequate test drive, and a decent price. If you go car shopping with the expectation that the salesman will tell you what you should buy and why then be prepared to make a bad decision.

I don't think that I am atypical when it comes to someone shopping for a performance car or for that matter any vehicle. So I guess I don't understand why product knowledge is such an issue unless its some sort of superiority kick to be able to say "hey I knew more than that idiot salesman". Who cares?

revdrluv

Because it is annoying when you are shopping for a car and the salesman makes up ridiculous things to try and sell you the car that are just plain untrue. I'll even bet that if they just took a little time to know about the cars they have on the lot they would be able to sell more of them also. Lying is never a good sales tactic, always comes back on you.

blacktalon

It's true -- I almost always end up knowing more about the car than the sales people. But sometimes the lies are so absurd that it's laugh-out-loud funny -- like the saleswoman who claimed that the 2000 Mitisubishi Eclipse was the first and only car to offer a manually-shiftable automatic transmission...

jwilson1

I'm not superior to anyone. If I start thinking that, or feeling that (more likely), I don't stand a chance of winning. Or maybe even surviving. At much of anything.

Yeah, the lies are aggravating. Even more is the frustration that comes from sales background -- the first requirement was always research. If you don't know everything possible about your product, and the buyer's needs, how the heck can you sell? That's why I sneer a lot and call them order-takers. Here are these bozos, making pretty good money potentially from my purchase, yet they lie, ignore what I want, don't even offer to find out the correct answer, tell me they don't even like the product and then try to set financial traps -- and they make pretty good money.

So maybe it's envy. And snaphook's right: if you don't go into any negotiation for a new auto without knowing more than the salesman, you could be toast, gypped toast.

An interesting point occurs to me: the few car salesmen who are well-prepared who I know are also the most honest. Interesting. I wonder if it's generally true.

But back on topic: questions for owners -- are the pedals arranged for heel-toe shifting? Is the throw and linkage easy to use smoothly? Have you found performance shift points yet? What about daily driving shift points? Can the VDC be turned off by switch, or?

Does anyone know the actual weight of the 3 wheels offered?

Take care.
Joe W.

snaphook

I guess maybe I do go about buying cars differently than most. I want my interaction with the salesperson to be minimal. Something like, here's my license I need the keys to a certain car. If I like the car then I say, I am willing to pay X amount please give me a yes or no answer. If the answer is yes then its just a matter of doing the paperwork. In fact, I suspect I will buy my next car online after I have done a test drive. This way the price and paperwork will be set before I even show up to finalize the deal.

If salesmen annoy you then you have the option of not dealing with them. Afterall, you are the customer which means you are the one in control. If you think I am describing an unrealistic buying situation, I'm not. I would guess that with the last 3 cars I have purchased less than 20 words were exchanged between me and the salesperson prior to the deal being agreed upon. And probably 15 of those words were spoken by me.