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Comments
Almost everything I've been reading about the 6 makes it pretty apparent that Mazda HAS the engineering talent necessary to turn out great drivers' cars. And the RX-8 looks like another very promising sign for Mazda's future. So I guess it'll come down to one thing: Consistency. That is, turning out vehicles that are consistently more sporty and interesting (both in styling and driving) than Hondas, Toyotas, etc. And also building them to consistently high standards, although Mazda's track record on this seems to have been pretty good overall (Ford-sourced 626 auto. trans. and rebadged trucks excepted, of course)...
My wish though is that they continue development of the Miller cycle engine from the Millenia. 210 hp and 210 lb ft of torque from a 2.3 liter V-6, all while maintaining 20/28 mileage with an automatic on a heavier car than the 6. Wow! Does anyone know why that engine or a version of it isn't out? I suspect it must have something to do with emissions. If anyone has more information on that I'd sure like to hear it.
Mazda 6, 1.8l, 88 kW, 4-cyl.
Renault Laguna, 1.8l, 88 kW, 4-cyl.
Opel Vectra, 1.8l, 90 kW, 4-cyl.
Nissan Primera, 1.8l, 85 kW, 4-cyl.
The test was interesting and comparable because of the smaller European engines. The current Opel Vectra shares the platform of the upcoming Saab 9-3 as well as the 2004 Malibu, Grand Am etc., while the current Nissan Primera is the new generation of what we know in the US as Infiniti G20, but closer to the new Altima. OK. So far so good. Cabin noise was a question earlier:
Mazda: at 50km=58dB, at 100km=68dB, at 130km=70dB
Nissan: at 50km=59dB, at 100km=70dB, at 130km=73dB
Renault: 50km=57dB, at 100km=66dB, at 130km=68dB
Opel: 50km=56dB, at 100km=65dB, at 130km=69dB
The testers noted that Opel and Renault are the "whisperers" in the test, while the Nissan is the "shouter", i.e. at higher speeds the interior noise seems to be double (!!!) as loud as in the Opel or Renault.
Another comment: somebody mentioned the missing rear adjustable headrests in the US-version of the Mazda6. I think that is really unbelieveable. I thought the PRO5 was the right step in the right direction, but no. Just break your neck in the backseat if you're over 5'5" when a dodo hits you... this is, unfortunately, typical for a lot of US-offered products. But get a grip: even the Hyundai Sonata and the Kia Optima have them!!! Hello, Mazda USA??????
Mazda6 = 102 % (1st place)
Opel Vectra = 100 %
Renault Laguna = 96 %
Nissan Primera = 94 %
If Mazda were truly a great car maker with the likes of Toyota or Honda, Why then can't they compete for bigger bucks along with Honda and Toyota?
Honda doesnt mind being labeled bland but it is laughing its way to the bank and same way with Toyota. Now can Mazda say the same thing.I do not think so.
So far, my own assessment of how Mazda's market strategy is that to distance far and away as possible from the mainstream because they know they couldn't touch the two biggest japanese carmaker. I could almost hear mazda saying, "Well we have tried but we miserably failed and because of that we almost died. But not this time, we have learned our lesson, make our own little niche market and earn a fraction of what Accords are enjoying rather than get booted out completely from the entire car industry"
I say that is the wisest move Mazda made. They may be better now but they do not have the stability of the other two japanese carmakers. Not yet anyway.
Perhaps it would help to look at the GM/Oldsmobile story.
One reason Olds quit selling is they entered the market for younger people...and failed. (And at the same time GM was launching Saturn, never did figure out that one!) While OLDS was doing that, they ran off their traditional market, who always had bought their cars. "This is not my father's oldsmobile." (Dad, to himself, "Dang right, gotta buy a Mercury...") Now, with few sales to younger people, and the older people insulted and not buying, Olds was selling virtually nothing to nobody. Good cars that had always sold, the 88 and 98, were gone.
Olds had such an identity crisis, the new Aurora came out without the word OLDS on it anywhere. The older market quit buying. Young people still snapped up Chevies, Toyotas, Hondas, yes, even Mazdas.
Olds, which had always been a respectable and practical car for older customers, had now succeeded in being nothing to nobody. Soon, the whole division closed.
Same story, different twist with Mazda, only it didn't get as far. Traditionally, Mazda's buyers were people who wanted sporty cars that were a bit different. This apparently wasn't enough for Mazda...Mazda wanted Honda and Toyota's market. Mazda then started building what it hoped were Honda and Toyota clones. For the most part, the people who wanted Hondas and Toyotas were never interested in Mazda in the first place and didn't even look at them. Meanwhile, traditional Mazda buyers scratched their heads, said BORING AND BLAND, and bought something else in many cases. Mazda had run off its traditional market in order to be something else: bland and boring but dependable. It didn't succeed in getting Honda and Toyota's market. Meanwhile, its usual buyers were abandoning it.
The moral of this story is to dance with the one that brung you. Don't try to be something else, or if you do, change slowly over time. Oldsmobile didn't do that. It's dead.
The flip side of the coin is that SOME change is necessary. Your traditional buyers eventually quit buying from you, in many cases because they have moved to Forest Lawn (a cemetery, for you non-US readers). This is where Mercury is right now, and what induced Olds to start its effort to go young.
It is a delicate balance. Mazda has tried to undo the damage it did by trying to be something it wasn't. Whether or not it can win back its prior loyal market remains to be seen. I, for one, am VERY interested in the Mazda6. We will just have to see if ZOOM, ZOOM is real, or just hollow marketing words. Soon, we will each get our own opportunity to see for ourselves. I wish we could see in a 5 door hatch! Now, that, my friends IS unique in the USA (yes, I know FORD offers the Focus that way--sister company, doesn't unprove my point)
john cline ii, who hopes that helps
http://www.mazdausa.com/mazda6/mz6_main_flash.asp
was sure a disappointment! I'm glad Mazda designs their cars better than they do their web site!
The problem with the Mazda US-lineup so far was the "bland mainstream clone 626" in my opinion as well as the relatively bland Protege until recently. In Europe they always had a 626 5-door hatch and wagon, as well as several versions of the 323 (Protege). Mazda was very successful in a "mainstream" market a few model generations ago with a little sportier image. Even though the specifications did not always reflect this. However, I guess we all agree that image is everything in a competitive market like those segments. I think the new 6 is still very much mainstream, however, with a twist: it looks "cooler", more modern but not "in your face", and seems to have the appeal at least to be sportier, and, sorry to say, it is in a lot of ways very Euro-toned. Which is an excellent compliment for all of the 6 model-versions. I am convinced that Mazda hit the nail with this one, and will make us forget the 626 pretty soon. And, they will get a little more of the mainstream cake, as the "mainstream"-generation gets younger.
I would even go that far and assume that Ford will look into their own versions of the 6 to cover part of the clients which will not make the switch to the upcoming 500 as a Taurus-departure, instead of federalizing the next version of the European Mondeo.
one big reason the Miller cycle engine is not being considered for anything in its current form is due to emission laws/regulations....the miller cycle is a rather dirty running engine and will not meet the new emission regulations without a huge overahaul.
John-thanks for responding to Wolverine so eloquently; you reinforced my point perfectly. I loved the Oldsmobile example. I think Mazda's attempt at the mainstream is actually worse in a way because Oldsmobile tried to capture a younger demographic based on already declining sales (it sucks when all your loyal customers start dropping like flies) whereas Mazda tried to jump into the mainstream with fairly strong sales in its niche wanting a bigger slice of the pie - and almost ended up with no pie at all.
I do want to be clear that when I'm talking about Mazda's "niche" I'm not equating that to anything exotic (ie Lamborghini, Lotus, etc.) but rather a smaller portion of the mainstream. If you imagine a bell curve distribution of mainstream car buyers, you can imagine one end where the people want more fun factor than the rest. The fat part of the bell curve is more concerned with brand image, comfort, and resale value than with sporty handling or power. But in my opinion the sporty end of the bell curve is getting more crowded as the X and Y generations start getting some wealth. We grew up with mom driving the dull station wagon or the minivan, and we think cars should be both fun and practical. There seems to be a distinct movement back toward sportiness in the auto industry as a whole, and thank god for that, because the last 10 years have seemed like a wasteland to me.
3 days to service? What do you have to do? Is that every 60K miles?
Come on folks, there is not a great deal of difference between a miller cycle and an otto cycle (run of the mill IC engine) engine. People act like the MC engine is some kind of exotic, when the truth of the matter is the maintenance headaches are more due to packaging (hard to get to things) then complexity.
...and in case you're wondering, I live in Birmingham, AL. and i do business with Med Center.
The only reason it may be called dirty would be due to eccentric shaft seals having a little leakage problem. S owners are mostly familiar with a little puff of smoke on acceleration. Not a big deal IMO.
"Perhaps the biggest advantage the Mazda6 brings to market is the body-style variants it offers. In addition to a sedan, the Mazda6 line will offer a wagon and five-door hatchback."
I'll still be at the local dealers come December!
On the other hand, when Passat came out the competition wasn't as strong. And Mazda's sales goals may be overly optimistic. VW is on pace to sell only ~80k Passats this year.
Why is it that SUV's and minivans are a dime a dozen? Because they cost more, they have more powerful engines, they're bigger!
Why is it that Nissan can convince folks who've never even been offroading (and never will) to buy their lumpy, bumpy, overpriced, ridiculous looking Xterra with a built-in first aid kit and a foghorn? Because it's got more!
Why is it that Ford was able to break sales records year after year in the 90's with the Taurus, one of the worst FWD midsize sedans ever sold in this country? Because everyone else was buying them, they must be better, and they're selling more, more, MORE!
Seriously, don't you think much of Mazda's problem is at least partially caused by the average American buyer's tendency to fall prey to the numbers game that many auto manufacturers play?
This phenomenon isn't unique to the auto market, either. I've been working in the computer industry for some time now, and things are just as bad there. Computer manufacturers can just as easily dupe consumers into thinking that their machine is better, because it has MORE MHz, MORE RAM, MORE MB. Does the average consumer even know what MHz, RAM and MB are, much less how they play into the machine's overall performance? Hell no, but that dumbass teenager on the Dell commercial sure makes it sound like we need more of all three in our machines!
Let me also add that I believe the Internet is making matters worse. Now you don't have to remember that Toyota's commercial told you that the Camry has more standard HP than the competition. You can go to one of those nifty car buying sites and put it's numbers right next to all the others on a chart, and convince yourself that it's better, just because it has more! Too much information, most of which is meaningless to the average American. That spells disaster for a manufacturer like Mazda, who isn't going to play that game. Most people don't necessarily bother to learn whether or not the car they want is actually better, as long as it looks better on paper (or their computer monitor).
Well, I hope Mazda makes a decent run of it (the 6), and hopefully Ford (more is better might as well be the name of their company) doesn't muck it up for them somewhere along the way. All the enthusiasm on this board is very encouraging. I applaud those of you who essentially cry "less can be more". You have the power to see straight through the facade that most automakers put in front of your face.
That's my rant for today...
http://autozine.kyul.net/html/Mazda1.htm#6
One odd thing about it is that it says the 6-cylinder engine will only be available with the automatic transmission, which I'm sure is incorrect.
Just like the computer industry...People buy Pentium 4's thinking that 2.0 Ghz actually matters. Nevermind that many Pentium III's, AMD Athlons, and Apple PowerPC G4's are significantly faster in most operations. People think that 2.0 Ghz is "faster" than a 1.0 Ghz Apple, when in fact it's not true at all.
It's truly sad that most consumers can't be bothered to educate themselves even the slightest bit, and can be swayed by the most blatant of marketing ploys. Obviously the browsers of this place are not of that ilk.
ickes_mobile brings up another point I've been pondering: why do hatchbacks have such a poor image here in the US? They are so obviously more practical and flexible than a sedan, and yet most of them fail because of poor sales. Honda offers a 5 door version of the Accord in Europe but not here. Mazda was initially very hesitant (and still wishy washy) about bringing the hatch to the US. Frankly I don't even see why most sedans haven't been replaced by hatchbacks. IMHO I think they're a fundamentally better design.
Other "premimum" hatches to come up recently are the Audi A2, the Alfa Romeo 147, and the upcoming 9-3x.
Meade
Interesting to note how the 2.0-liter seemed more than adequate for our British friends ... makes me consider the 2.3 even more, especially since I refuse to put an automatic transmission in my cars ...
However, I wouldn't be surprised if Mazda USA decides to put the 4-cylinder in the "DX" and "LX" versions and make the "ES" available only with the Duratec V6. Dammit.
Meade
and both motors will have MANUAL transmission available
ABS
Traction-control system
Alloy wheels (steel wheels standard on the i)
8-way power driver's seat with lumbar adjustment
Automatic HVAC controls (i's are manual and not upgradeable)
Anti-theft/perimeter alarm
110-amp alternator (i's is 90 amps)
It is NICE to see, however, that both models come standard with 4-wheel disk brakes.
And since I love manual transmissions, it's nice to see that the i gets 25/32 mpg compared to the s's 20/27. And did you guys notice the HUGE HONKIN' gas tank this car has? 18 GALLONS! Using that highway mileage estimate for the i 5-speed, that means I could go 576 miles on a tankful! WOW!
Gonna be a hard decision in a couple years -- go with Mazda quality and fewer options, or get the top model but worry about its Ford engine? Two years ago I got out of a Mazda-built-by-Ford B2300 pickup truck that had engine problem after engine problem, and I swore up and down that I would NEVER buy another vehicle with a Ford engine in it again.
What to do, what to do ... dammit Mazda, why couldn't you keep building your own engines for your cars?!
Meade
If you want a mid-size car with good range you should check out the new Altima, which has a 20 gallon tank.
I think I like the way the options hav been distributed - I'd probably get the ABS and/or traction control, don't care for power seats and automatic HVAC, would spring for the alarm too or install a cheaper and better after-market alarm, and the alternator isn't that big a deal (right?).
576 mile range - woweeee! Nowadays I fill up at around 200 miles, not because the mileage is low, but because the gauge is sluggish and makes it appear I only have 1/6th tank left (although I rarely get over 7.5 gallons in there!)
As far as I remember, there are no major issues.
You can check "Mazda MPV 2000+" and "Mazda MPV problems" formus.
Also Jaguar X type uses the duratec and Jatco combo