Mazda6 Sedan

kenoka

I was hoping to divert this with the article I posted before, but obviously that didn't work.
It's of course very difficult to quantify what a sport sedan is or isn't. We can't even agree on what a sports car is, so why should it be easier to name a sport sedan? Most of the designation is marketing to elicit an emotional response from the buyer. Ultimately it's like that Senator said when asked to define pornography: I can't define it, but I know it when I see it!
I think it takes a very conscientious design and engineering effort to make a sport sedan. In each design decision there is a compromise to be made between sportiness and something else. That something else will usually be comfort, economy, luxury, convenience, etc. If the designers leaned toward the sportiness in the majority of cases, then more than likely you will have something pretty sporty. If you look at the BMW 3 series, or the Lexus IS300, they make very few compromises away from sportiness: they're both smaller than most of the segment (sacrificing roominess), lighter (sacrificing some ride comfort), have stiffer suspensions (ride comfort again), and are RWD (there goes economy). I think if you look at the 6, you'll see that much the same process went into its development. It is likely a bit more compromised than my two examples, but compared to its direct competitors it is smaller, stiffer, and has a firmer suspension.
For those that view power as the end all be all, this probably isn't the right car for you. For some of us, the feel of the car is more important than paper bragging rights or stoplight racing ability. But hey, more power to ya!

audia8q

I was told today that Mazda is shooting for 100K mazda6 units per year in the US market. This is certainly a reachable once all three models hit the ground.

wgr

Unless the economy turns around decisively, no auto manufacturer is going to reach big volume goals without price cutting.

vooch

ashutoshsm, it took me forever to compile that list and you didn't even like it heh. I just thought it was dumb for Edmunds to suggest anything wrong with the V6 (regardless of sport sedan stuff) because 1) they haven't driven one yet, 2) most of the competition is yes, 10% or whatever within the power stats of the Duratec V6.

I'll take mine in as a black, v6, hatch, 5-speed.

You also haven't been on the Millenia boards ashutoshsm, because people whine and moan that the Millenia has 170hp... To a lot of people it seems, 180+ hp does make a difference. My current car has 140hp and weighs almost nothing at 2500lbs, and it is slow, slow, slow. I've never owned a V6, so I'm actually looking forward to comparing them.

The RX-7 was one of the coolest cars ever made, in my opinion, and its a shame they had to remove it.

I read somewhere also that they are shooting for 100k units per year.

If they weren't going to compete in a hp war, they wouldn't have such a thing as Mazdaspeed. There's a protege coming out next year with 170hp I believe. Also, the 6 will suppposedly be release in Mazdaspeed form in the distant future with 280hp, AWD. It sounds to me like they are going to compete in a lot of wars.

vocus

I had a 2002 Millenia as a loaner car and thought it was pretty slow actually. 170hp is not enough in a car that heavy, I don't think. I am spoiled by my 180hp turbo in the Jetta though.

I can't wait to test drive the 6. If I like it, my next car just might be a hatchback, maybe in yellow.

maltb

The Protege is clearly under powered, and 170hp won't win it any awards. However, when you mate it to one of the best factory suspensions out there, it will win many awards.

Mazdaspeed isn't about 1/4 mile times. You might want to double check your research.

kenoka

Just kidding. Here is a link showing the anticipated unveiling of the MazdaSpeed 6 at the Paris Motor Show in September:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/front_index.php? cp=1&domain=evo&page=news%2Fevo_news_story.php%3Fid%3D27512
Sorry, you'll have to copy and paste; it won't let me post a "word" longer than 115 characters.
"Keen to boost its image among enthusiastic drivers, Mazda is set to unveil a hot edition of the new 6 saloon. The MPS will appear at September's Paris Motor Show, and promises to deliver more than 250bhp from its 2.3-litre turbo engine. A four-wheel-drive version of the 6's well balanced chassis will ensure top-rate handling."

audia8q

What are you talking about??? Both of our Mazda stores are strongly exceeding last years good sales numbers.....without much in the way of new product. Nobody has told our Mazda buyers the economy is bad...haha
Add the new 6 to the mix and the 8 along with the mazdaSpeed image car and next year will be even better for Mazda.

vooch

I never said that any Mazda would win any award for anything. I only meant that they are definitely competing in a performance war. I believe Mazdaspeed is a *performance* token, not Mazdaspeed = a 170hp Protege that will win an award for hp. Come to think of it though, it just may win an award for power/performance in its class.
I notice you didn't mention anything about a 280hp AWD MAZDA6...
If you don't think a 170hp protege, a 280hp AWD 6, and the RX-8 is at least an attempt to compete in a performance war, can't help ya bud. What else could a performance model of an existing base model be??

To make it even easier on you, let me copy and paste directly from 1 click off the Mazda USA web page:
"Power and performance is the heart and soul of every Mazda vehicle. Now that heart and soul has a new expression in North America: MAZDASPEED® a maximum performance vehicle, parts, accessories, apparel and motorsports. The first vehicle is the MAZDASPEED Protegé."

maltb

Mazda is not out to compete in the Horsepower war. To be clear about what that means: Mazda will not go out of their way to have the highest output in their class. Plenty of cars out there go fast; very few can take the turn after the straightaway.

vooch

I see. But competing and winning are two different things. I do think they are competition. The previous 626 6 cylinder had around 170hp I think. The 6 has 219, which is a significant increase. Producing a mid-sized sedan(hopefully in the mid 20's) with 280hp, would blow away pretty much anything in its class, and prolly take out a few outside its class as well. How is that not competing? They gotta be a close 2nd or 3rd, come on.
At the very least, they are in a performance war? Gimme that at least!
I'm done

kenoka

Mazda doesn't want a horsepower war. Period. They DO want to redefine their image as being a performance oriented brand. IMHO what they want to do is stop people from making the horsepower equals performance leap in logic and look at the other things (suspension geometry, steering input, pedal feel, frame setup, etc.) that make a car FEEL right, as opposed to the notion that the horsepower rating is all that's important.

magnetophone

Here are some cars with not so much horsepower but excellent performance:

Lotus Elise, 140hp, 6.0 seconds to 60mph
Opel Astra, 140hp, 8.0 seconds to 60mph
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4, 150hp, 8.2 seconds to 60 mph

See? it doesn't have to be over 200hp to have decent performance numbers

vooch

Those cars are tiny cars. My car weighs 2500lbs and has 140hp as well. Even then, its still slow. It handles like a dream, but its slow. It doesn't have the whole package. Boy I would do some damage if it could move AND handle. A bigger mid-sized car needs more than 140hp to actually perform. How much more is anyone's guess, but definitely more.

As far as I'm concerned, Mazda doesn't need to redefine their image as a performance oriented brand. They've always been that. That's what sets them apart from the regular dribble. Even the bland 90's 626s were tighter than its competitors.

Anyway, none of my posts were meant to be specifically a hp discussion. My point was that Edmunds was off base when they even mentioned anything about the V6 because they had not driven it and it is so close to competitors numbers. They would have been better off saying something that actually mattered instead.

I agree that hp doesn't *equal* performance but its certainly a large function of it. Without it, you just can't have the total performance package.

What makes me excited is that I know Mazda will produce a car that will perform nicely, because they always have, PLUS(as an added bonus) it has the hp to boot.

ickes_mobile

probably has more to do with power to weight ratio, gear ratios and other elements such as suspension setting that a maker can establish to give the car a certain character. Mazda is probably seeking a adventagous power to weight ratio, lower, closely spaced gear settings and a firm suspension.

BTW, AMI-Auto World has an artical on the new Accord. 240hp and 212lb-ft of torque from the 5spd Auto/V-6. Only 160hp from the 4cyl. which is to be available with a 5spd. manual or 5spd. Auto. Looks pretty classy (but not very sporty) ;-) See it here with thanks to Beach15 over at the Accord forum:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/44150265/44151119DfdaXr

vocus

The 170hp turbo in the Protege isn't going to win any awards with VW/Audi's 180hp 1.8T engine around...

newcar31

Problem is, unless you have a lot of money, that 1.8T comes attached to a VW. Too bad you can't just buy the engine....

vooch

It may not win the award for the most hp, but it may win the best overall car in its category, or best value, maybe the "not a completely and utterly overpriced Audi award", or the "not overpriced VW award".

vooch

Even though this isn't a VW or protege board... of the VWs, I like the Scirocco and the Corrado. Both were cool cars. I'd consider the Corrado if they still made them.

tiredofmanual

I've never heard anyone accuse Audi of being overpriced before. Audi competes with BMW based on value. A VW might be overpriced, but an Audi is not.

johnclineii

Whether or not a vehicle is overpriced is a decision made individually by each prospective buyer. Pricing is a delicate art. The goal of the seller is normally to get as much money as possible out of the buyer, and the goal of the buyer is to pay as little as possible while getting at least the quality and features wanted.

Pricing the Mazda6 will be a delicate art, as it always is.

And whether or not Audi is overpriced? Depreciation is one measure, although not always an accurate one. To most 75 year olds, ALL cars seem overpriced. To multi-billionaires, I doubt any do (or perhaps ALL do)

vooch

I agree with johnclineii that whether or not a car is overpriced is mostly an opinion of the buyer. That said, I personally think Audi is overpriced. A car the size of a Corolla that can be had for close to 40k MSRP, to me, is overpriced(no matter what the options). Thats only the A4.

As for VW, its mainly the Jetta that I think is overpriced. Its the size of a Civic but sells for 20k+.

They obviously fill a niche that I am not in the market for. I think its called the small overpriced car niche

verozahl

Well, if the Mazda6 ends up priced just a little more than the Jetta, it'll be the "6" which is the value car, definitely. VW has a runaway success with the Jetta, but if prices keep going up, hmm!

vcjumper

Last time I was in one it didn't seem to have the room of a Civic in the back seat. Have a friend with a baby seat back there and it is a pain in the butt.

ickes_mobile

for as well regarded as the Protege is, it still requires heavy incentives or low intrest financing to sell...

tiredofmanual

I do agree that each individual decides whether something is overpriced or not, I had just never heard anyone say that Audis are overpriced. I guess though that if you truly cannot see the differences between a FULLY loaded A4 and a Corolla, then Audis are probably overpriced. By the same token though, that Corolla is overpriced as well.

vooch

I only mentioned the size of the Corolla in comparison with A4. I even mentioned options, which I was hoping someone reading the post would assume that I considered the options of the A4. But like you said, I really cannot see the $20k+ worth of differences between the two cars, both being 4 door compact sedans. You could buy a whole new car for $20k.

But, not to pick on Audi, I consider *most* cars over $30k overpriced. What exactly is a $50k car doing that a $20k-$30k car cannot(AND that is worth the extra $20k+)? Twenty thousand dollars, good god. You'd think... ah nm. Then again, I don't have enough money to buy a $30k+ car heh, so there could be some jealousy there but thats another issue!

This is all personal opinion of course. But, IMHO, anything over $30k, if its not a sports car(and even then..), is status and name sake only. And I think its really hard to make a good argument against that point too hehe. But I guess if you have enough money to buy a really expensive car, money doesn't matter. So, there, I just argued for and against my point

tiredofmanual

I completely understand where you are coming from, however I would have phrased things differently. I would have said "cannot justify the cost," not "overpriced." Vehicles costing $500 to $50,000+ all satisfy the same basic requirement - getting you from point A to point B.

I appreciate the content and performance levels of the BMW M5, yet I can't afford it and even if I could, I don't think I could justify the costs. I don't feel that it is overpriced though. Luckily for me, I'm young, single, have no debt, and write software for a living so I can justify putting my Focus on eBay today in anticipation of the arrival of my new A4.

PS - I wouldn't have attacked you even if you gave me reason.

sross

Doesn't the 6 bears a striking resemblance to the previous generation A4? Not that that's bad--I think the A4 is a handsome car. I never thought it was overpriced (it's not really hard to get a well equipped 1.8T with quattro for high 20s or 30), but heck--if Mazda can make a car that performs as well, with a bigger back seat, with about as much style, for less money, we all win. Maybe it will even be more reliable.

verozahl

Yes, I notice a bit of a styling similarity with the previous-gen Audi A4.

mazdafun

I don't see that much of a resemblance between the 6 and the A4 (except the overall shape, having 4 wheels and doors and stuff like that, ha-ha-ha!).

No really, I like the old A4 better than the current one, but I like the 6 even more (more "cat-like" and "taut").

ickes_in_mn

The Mazda6 looks simialr to the Mk1 A4 where the C-piliar meets the decklid. Also, the bulged out, athletic stance is overall similar to that of the A4. Think sedan on steriods...

silvercrown

I just read a "First Drive" review for the 6 by Edmunds. It sounds very positive in nearly all major aspects. Check it out, if you haven't already.

The arrival of the new 6 should definitely shake up the midsize market even further. It seems to be a near perfect balance of style, performance, handling and comfort. A sedan that's fun and practical as well as good looking. Be still my heart!

This will be very interesting to see how it all plays out with the recent versions of the Camry, Passat and Altima, along with the new Accord coming along around the same time.

I can't wait to see it up close and do a test drive! It sounds very impressive.

123aaa

will take a big enough bite out of Honda and Toyota sales to make them concerned. Based on the "near perfect balance of style, performance, handling and comfort" of the 6, I would think Honda and Toyota are already a little nervous even before it hits our shore. I'm in the market for a sedan, was thinking about the Accord but may hold off until November. Only thing is for me, the shiny plastic interior really puts me off. I keep going back to the picture showing the interior and trying to imagine if I could live with it. It's funny because if I were to told I could make a car to order within certain handling and pricing specs, the 6 is better than I would have come up with or thought possible! I've noticed with some dread that shiny aluminum trim is trendy accross the board. Now I'm concerned that the '03 Accord will have titanium gauges. Anybody know? Now I'm thinking I better grab an '02 Accord just in case!

maxamillion1

I know how you feel about the interior. I feel the same way about the Mazda 6 as well as the new Altima. If the interior in the Altima was anywhere near the quality of the Accord or Camry, I would already know which car I want. The 6 does beat the Altima, it seems in interior quality though.

FYI, in Japan the 6 is offered with a factory wood kit for the radio panel, maybe Mazda will make it an accessory here? I am glad that we don't get the clear taillights. If I were to buy an Altima today, by next week, I'd be at a paint shop having them painted red.

123aaa

Thanks for the FYI on wood kits. Based on Mazda's website, it seems reasonable to expect good or even excellent quality switches, knobs, etc, and that does make me feel a little better about the shiny look. It makes most sense to me ergonomically that a car's gauges and dash and center console not be distracting or bright. Black seems the best to me although even wood would at least be darker and less shiny than the titanium. The shiny aluminum in the Altima turned me off it, too, so I also considered a Maxima trim line that doesn't have the shiny stuff. Of course, if the 6 model succeeds like I think it might, it will be around a long time and eventually some year shiny aluminum trim will no longer be the trend! It's funny what puts people off. The clear taillights don't bother me but I totally understand how appearance can really put people off a vehicle that is otherwise mechanically and ergonomically very atractive.

magnetophone

Car magazine said the interior quality was excellent, which is a huge compliment coming from them. They are not very kind to most interiors, especially Japanese ones!

maltb

The Japanese always get a ton of accessories but they also pay dearly for them. However, if they are ambidextrous, you could always have them shipped to you for a small(hehehe) fee.

kenoka

You should all be glad that we probably won't see that cheesy fake wood trim on our cars. If you want to see what it looks like, as well as all the other options available on the JDM Atenza, follow the link below:

http://www.mazda.co.jp/accessory/garage/atenza/sport/atenza_sport.html

machiavelli

Max - I agree about the Altima taillights. Too "boy racer, slammed Civic" looking for me. I hope the 6 gets "adult" taillights.

As for the wood grain trim, I'm sure there'll be plenty of aftermarket kits available after the car has been on the market awhile. If you flip thru the ad section at the back of a car mag, you'll see several ads for wood trim kits that include website addresses to visit.

maltb

There ya go maxmillion...$370 plus S/H and the plood is yours. It looks like everything but the door panel switch bezel will work too.

wgr

Townhall is very slow. Anybody else experience this ?

vocus

It's because of server problems they are having. They are working to try to fix it, according to posts in other forums about the slowness.

vocus

That's one thing about the Altima that I hate, those taillamps. I heard that the 6 will have the regular red taillamps when it comes to the US, not the Altezza ones like the Altima has.

ickes_mobile

The Accord is supposed to have Lexus like illuminated gauges according to AMI Auto World magazine's review of the new car.

The chrome background part of the 6 taillights are painted red and the the surrounds for each light will still be chrome, all behind a clear lens. The one blue sedan I saw at the Chicago Autoshow had these and it looked distinctive and not overly aftermarket...

mazdafun

:P

vwmonsoon

Does anyone knows if the 6 will have them standard? My friends 2002 Camry has them it works great.

I think the altezza taillamps doesn't look bad on the 6 because it's not as huge as those on the Altima. I think at least the hatch should keep them.

vcjumper

Hope so, I've got them on my Intrigue. Used to dislike them and find it totally unecessary, but now I've been spoiled.

The taillights on the Altima only look ok to me on the dark bronze coloured model.. Otherwise it just looks tacky like on the Civics/Integras etc.

ickes_mobile

Great link to the accessories site on the JDM page!!!

I like how you can change the color of the car (a hatchback) to get an idea of what other colors look like. Black is REALLY hot!

It also explains some of the pics we've seen of the car, especially those of the yello hatch with the body colored grille and black out background for the headlights. (If you pick a red car and choose the body color taillight lenses, you get an idea of what the NA market will get standard)

I hope they bring some of this stuff here under the Mazdaspeed label to allow personallization of each car.

You're right, however, that wood isn't real attractive!

For everybody else, here is the link again so you don't have to go back up and find it. Check it out!!!

http://www.mazda.co.jp/accessory/garage/atenza/sport/atenza_sport.html

kenoka

If you guys think that was cool, check this out; the Virtual Garage for the Entire JDM Mazda lineup!

http://www.mazda.co.jp/accessory/garage/index.html

Enjoy!
Ken