Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

robert116

Mike / Juice
I believe that I saw several mentions of this issue while scrolling through past messages.

I urge everyone with a coolant loss problem with no signs of leakage to invest approximately $50.00 to have an engine oil sample tested for the presence of glycol. If you are not leaking the stuff out it is going in the oil, that is very bad indeed.

I use Lubriport Labs, Kenner, LA, 1.504.464.1734.
Each test, they supply an approved post paid container and sample bottle, is about $18.00.
You do need a sample pump which I believe is $25.00 or so from these folks.

Its beginning to look like some of us have a well performing engine with a serious design or manufacturing defect.

lizardpup

I bought a 2000 Legacy Brighton automatic with 38k on it today and for my test drive...no problem. Of course after I signed all the papers and drove home, I found that sometimes at stoplights, the whole car bucks and shakes and threatens to stall. Once I accelerate and get moving, the shaking stops completely. I can only reproduce it 5% of the time. Also I hear some reverberation in the cockpit that sounds like whistling but the frequency is annoying and noticeable. I see I'm not the only one to have some of these problems, could someone help me? It's only under powertrain warranty now and the mechanic thinks I need to drive it more to "wear the rust off the brakes a bit" since it's been sitting on a lot for awhile???? Sounds fishy. I'd appreciate anyone's help...thank you.
-Elizabeth

ateixeira

Elizabeth: see my response in the Legacy/Outback thread.

-juice

outbackwoody

I have a 1998 Legacy Outback with 158,000 miles on it. I've had my share of problems with it, but what I am having now is the worst. The vehicle gets "stuck" in 1st gear. It will eventually come out by itself but not until it red lines the tack (7,000 rpm). It will also shift into 1st by itself sometimes when I'm driving, (I'm going 30 mph, in 3rd gear, then all of a sudden it decides that it wants to be in 1st gear.... at 30 MPH...). When this happens, I'm not putting any stress on the engine, it can happen on a perfectly straight road (not a hill) and I am just cruising at 30-40 MPH. It happens mostly from a standstill, when it's already in 1st. It doesn't happen all the time, but I can expect it to happen (from a dead stop) at least 30 percent of the time. If I manually shift it from 3rd (Drive) to 2nd when it's "stuck", it will ALWAYS shift out of the stuck 1st gear to 2nd. But I have to wait until the RPM is up to 3,500/4,000 before I shift into 3rd or it will go back into 1st again. I also have the check engine light that comes on sparatically (sp), but the light being on or off does not correspond to the 1st gear problem. I have had the light checked 3 times now and the dealer keeps turning it off and replacing an ECR module that they say was the culprit. Does anyone have any experience with the trans. problem? Any help would be appreciated.

snacks78

I had warping on 2000 Outback front brake rotors (40k miles.) I got them replaced, but their is still a shuttering when braking. The Subaru service guy said that the rear rotors warp just as much as the front. Has anyone else had to turn or replace the rotors on the rear?

rayfbaird

On the check engine light, have the O2 sensors been replaced? That's the obvious reason for a CEL.

My son had a similar problem with his Mazda. The machanics said that the first gear solenoid was gad. He completely flushed out the transmission and then added Lubegard with the replaced fluid.It's been flawless since then. His car had only 63K on it at the time.

ateixeira

On our 626, some grease had leaked onto the O2 sensor and shorted it out, and gave us a CEL.

You could change the O2 sensor and clean the surrounding area, to see if that helps. They are about $60-70, Bosch makes them, and you could change them every 30k or 60k miles.

-juice

outback_97

Old news, right? I just had this recall installed, and I have a simple question. Is it possible for the dealership to perform the installation WITHOUT removing the wheels? I had wheel studs damaged recently, and I think it was from this procedure, as they were fine (lug nuts and studs that is) a few months back and this has been the only service performed since then that should involve wheel removal.

I got my hands on a copy of the Repair Procedures WWE-88: Step #1 Raise vehicle on a lift. Step #2 Remove the left and right front wheels. Seems pretty clear to me, but the dealership says they don't have to remove the wheel to perform the install. Who's right? Any opinions are greatly appreciated. Thank you.

outbackwoody

I heard on the radio on my way home that the Auto Zone store will do a free diagnostic on your check engine light.... so, I stopped by an Auto Zone store and they found that I had a PO Code 720 Bad Speed Sensor. That makes sense why the transmission is getting "stuck" in 1st gear. I am on the phone RIGHT NOW with the Subaru Service Dept. attempting to get an estimate on replacing the sensor.......... waiting.... waiting.... waiting..... $216.00 + tax. I've got an appointment this Thursday (today's Tuesday), I'll let you know if that took care of the problem.

emmaline

I took my 2002 I Wagon to the dealer last Tues, requesting that they find and correct the "wind tunnel" type noise that I hear, seeming to come from the right passenger side and back of the car. I told the service person that it usually started in after the car had been driven at least 10 miles. He said they would find out what was causing it, and fix it. I also mentioned I had had some hesitation, and slight bucking problems when I shifted into first, although not for awhile. They gave me an Enterprise rental. The service person called on Wed or Thurs, and left a message that they had not been able to duplicate the problems, but would keep trying and be in touch with me. I did not hear anything, so called on Friday. I was told the service person was out until Monday, and was put through to the service manager. He told me they were short technicians, due to sudden illnesses, and since I had a rental car they were first servicing the cars of those customers who didn't have alternative transportation. I told him that was fine with me, and I would wait to hear from him. I asked him if he would be willing to drive in the car with me if the technicians could not hear the noise. He said he would be glad to. Yesterday, 7 days later, the service person called and left a message, asking me to please come in and pick up my car, and drop off the rental. He said there was a problem because I had had it so long. I called and spoke to him and asked if they had heard the noise. He said no. I asked if they had driven the car. He said yes, one technician drove it for 6 miles, and one technician drove it for 3 miles. I reminded him it was written down on the service order that the noise usually didn't kick in until after at least 10 miles. He said 6 plus 3 equals 10 or close enough, and started sounding irritated. I asked him if he or a technician would drive in the car with me. He said they were too busy. When I persisted, he said the service manager would drive with me, and to come in the next morning. I asked him if he would tell the service manager to expect me, and he said of course. When I came in the next day, the service manager said he was too busy to drive in the car with me. He said the noise I was describing sounded "suspicious and strange," as if I was making it up. I politely agreed the noise was strange, and what I was asking was if he would ride in the car with me. He also was irritated, and called on the intercom for someone to drive with me. He asked me to wait outside while he spoke with the person. The service rep and I drove for about 15 miles. During that time the noise started up off and on, although never as loud as it often gets (of course). He said it sounded like it was coming from the rear axle. He also said some of it might be normal road noise. I asked if it might be the AWD, which I have never experienced before, or the cross bars on the overhead rack. He said they all might be possible causes. He was very polite, but didn't feel the noise was out of the ordinary (and again, the noise was pretty subdued on our drive), and it's clear the dealership has no intention of trying to clear this up for me. I have not contacted Subaru itself, which is my next step. I appreciate seeing posts here from others who experience the same problem. Thanks, Juice, for your suggestions, including how to step on the gas pedal to accommodate its design...I might have made that correction unknowingly because I've not had the hesitancy when shifting into first for awhile. I mentioned your thoughts about adjusting the windows and eliminating the cross bars to stop the noise...the service rep wasn't sure what you meant by adjusting the windows, but did say removing the cross bars might help, and was worth a try. I had hoped the dealership would tell me what was causing the noise, and correct it. I also had hoped to be treated more respectfully. My hope now is that Subaru itself will correct this problem for me. Emma

subearu

You can always take your vehicle to another Subaru dealer for service. Is there another one near you? Seems like these guys weren't truly willing to help you out.

Things I would try, in order:
1. Inflate (cold) tires to specs listed on left door pillar.
2. remove roof cross bars.

If the noise persists after that, then it could be something related to the tires or transmission. Call Subaru at that time.

-Brian

paisan

The old folks like me to read it easier.

-mike

rsholland

If you have a long post, break it into several paragraphs. It's MUCH easier to read.

I refuse to read long 1-paragraph posts like that.

Bob

emmaline

I apologize for the long message, with no breaks into paragraphs. For some reason, I thought I had tried to break into paragraphs on previous messages, and the format didn't allow it.

Thank you Brian for your suggestions. I will check my tires, and remove the roof cross bars, before contacting Subaru. Emma

revka

that in addition to the feedback here, you may also want to check out Edmunds' Maintenance Guide to see if there any TSBs (technical service bulletins) or Recalls that may be related to your vehicle problems.... Hope this is helpful.

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

sb69coupe

My 2002 LL Bean has fallen victim to the ECU reprogramming blues. The check engine light came on for a while. I tightened the fuel cap and it went away, but came back again on the same tank of gas. I took it to the dealer Thursday and they called to inform me of the need to send the ECU out for reprogramming. They have been great so far, and I'll be in a rental while the car is down.

Incidentally, I was experiencing an off-idle hesitation at part throttle as well. The tech indicated that the reprogramming would fix this. Does anyone know if the misfire codes are due to actual misfires, or are the codes thrown erroneously?

Shannon

ateixeira

Emma: remember to be polite and friendly to the folks at the dealer. They're more likely to pull strings and help if they like you. I've found that if you send them references, for car sales, they like you even more.

Shannon: from what I've heard from people that had their ECUs reprogrammed, it only helps, so consider it a good thing. The loaner they put you in means you're putting miles on someone else's car, and yours will be back in no time.

-juice

sten2

Revka,
I looked at the TSB's in Edmunds' Maintenance Guide, but they only list a one line summary. Is it possible to get the full bulletin somewhere else on-line? If not, where is the best place to get it?

Thanks,
Sten

revka

Yes, Edmunds' maintenance guide only provides a brief summary of the NHTSA TSBs. For more details about TSBs, I'm going to refer you to this Edmunds article: You, Your Vehicle and the Technical Service Bulletin (TSB), by Erin Riches. Look for details/options on how to get the complete tsb in the latter part of the article.

Btw, another option would be to provide your dealer service with just the brief summary and TSB number; and see if they can follow up with the complete report and/or corresponding manufacturer service procedure. This has worked for me on a couple of occasions... but of course would also depend on how willing/capable your dealer service is. Good luck.

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

lemonrider

Has anyone experienced a shimmy/clutch shudder that shakes the entire vehicle? My 2000 Legacy GT (28k miles) shudders often, it seems to occur during cooler weather. Additionally, the clutch seems a littly grabby when cold.

glendennis

We have a '94 Subaru Legacy Wagon. It has given us fairly reliable service except for the past 3 months, every now and then, it just won't start. If it sits for a while, it will usually start. Our mechanic examined the whole ignition system couldn't find anything wrong, replaced the starter, and it has happened again. Does anyone have any ideas? Is this a known problem with the Legacy?

fishdeck

Does anyone know where to plug in a wiring harness for trailer lights on a 2001 LLBean? I have looked but can't find the plug.
thanks
tim

ateixeira

rider: try fewer revs. 1200 rpm, maybe, and then don't add throttle until after it's fully engaged.

glen: the OE battery doesn't have that many amps, maybe try a new battery with more CCAs?

Tim: the Forester's was in the spare tire well, on the passenger side along the back.

-juice

bkaiser1

If you scroll back through the Legacy/Outback Wagons topic, you'll find dozens of posts regarding the clutch shuddering you're experiencing. Mine has been horrible, and not fixable, for nearly all of my car's 33K mile life. You're not alone, but that's of little comfort. If you're dealer is anything like mine, they will tell you it's a normal attribute of Subaru's clutches.

Try calling 1-800-Subaru3 and starting a case file just so they have a record of the problem. I did, not that it got me anywhere...

Mine used to only shudder in the cold, now it does it in any weather and at any time...it shakes the car so bad sometimes I think the roof rack is going to fly right off the car. Nice.

ateixeira

If it's that bad, and it were me, I'd just replace it with an aftermarket clutch, like an ACT or similar. It's just that a $300 part is ruining a $20,000+ ownership experience.

Try to negotiate with the dealer to see if they'll at least install it for free (labor).

-juice

bkaiser1

Well, the last clutch I replaced was on a 93 626 v6, and it ran over $600...not a cheap fix. Cobb Tuning's clutch for the outback (because there's no way I'd spend my own money on another Subaru clutch) is about $400, plus install. I will definitely replace it one of these days, but that's totally beside the point. Having to replace a faulty clutch on a new car at my own expense is inexcusable.

mrk610

Thats why i bought a auto and I love it .

lemonrider

"Having to replace a faulty clutch on a new car at my own expense is inexcusable."

I agree with that. This Subaru is the first new car I've purchased. I'll never buy another Subaru. Maybe in the past Subarus were well made, but this car fails to deliver.

I guess I've been expecting too much from my Legacy, I'd like it to function as well as my 15 year old BMW (201,000 miles). I know that will never happen.

paisan

But 1) It's not a BMW 2) all the clutchs on the subarus are like that.

No matter what brand you buy, you are going to get some that aren't built as well as others, it's just how it goes. Perhaps you should have bought a Toyota Camry, then you could have a sludge problem. Or your great BMW get and X5 and have it GO ON FIRE!!!!

Give me a break, and grow up a little.

-mike

lemonrider

I think you're missing the point. It would seem a little unjust to compare a 2 year old car with another 7 times that age. All cars have problems, but people buy NEW vehicles to try to avoid them.

From the minute I drove off the lot, this vehicle has been nothing but trouble. At 926 miles, this Legacy spent 2 days in the shop to correct a nasty wheel shudder when braking (read Warped Rotors) and a severe alignment problem. Granted the rotors weren't warped, but they did need to be turned to correct "Excessive Runout" and the tires were swapped from right to left.

Then I experienced the steering noises, clutch shudders, and alignment problems that are "normal" to Subaru. Over the next two years, there have been other issues such as the wheel bearing that is slowly drowning the radio out, the door trim that is peeling off, and the interior door panel that refuses to stay attached.

Now explain to me why I should not be upset after spending $24,000 to buy a car that is not well made. I could better deal with these issues if there was a resolution, but it seems more likely these will be "Normal" for the vehicle.

This has nothing to do with maturity.

paisan

1 bad car doesn't reflect the rest of the entire production.

Have you ever contacted SOA? Or have you been buying any BS that your dealer tells you? Every make I've owned I've had to try out at least 3 dealers before I found one that was honest, and upfront with me rather than a runaround.

Of all the problems you list the only non "normal" ones I see are the wheel bearing and the door panel, both of which should be fixed under warranty.

-mike

lemonrider

I agree that one bad car doesn't reflect the entire brand. But please try to understand my point of view.

I've been a Subaru fan for many years, and I eagerly anticipated my first Subaru purchase. You can understand my disappointment when over the first year of ownership my new car spent more time in the shop than my old car.

It's a little unnerving when a vehicle less than 2 weeks old needs repairs. From one angle, these could be isolated problems, but from another angle these could be signs of poor build quality; a foreshadowing of larger, more sinister problems yet to be identified.

Unfortunately, I live in a town where there is only 1 Subaru dealer. The next closest one is about 70 miles away. I don't have much confidence in the local dealer, they would have trouble diagnosing a flat tire.

I have contacted SOA, but they don't seem moved to help me. They've already given me the extended warranty, but that doesn't solve the underlying issues.

ochssk

When they reprogrammed my ECU, I asked the dealer if the misfire could have damaged the engine. The service rep explained it was a false code (eg no actual misfire). The engine was operating normally but a false code was being picked up. Since the reprogramming (or new ECU since they lost mine!) I have had no other problems. Hopefully you will get your ECU back quicker than mine and be on the road again. Hopefully you got a better rental than mine too!

Steve

paisan

Send Juice an e-mail he may be able to put you in contact with Patti who is a rep @ SOA to help you out.

I understand the frustration, but I'm sure that they are isolated issues.

-mike

porknbeans

I empathize with your situation and can only offer this suggestion. If you are willing to give out your location in your profile, or in this thread, maybe somebody could recommend an independent shop that could diagnose/verify your problem. Then you have additional ammunition to take to SoA or your dealer, WRT your claim and how it gets handled.

There is only one dealer in my town and the next closest is also a long way. I'm less than impressed with them although others have had good luck.

Good luck.

lemonrider

I appreciate your input. I may have to try another dealer or repair shop. Their inability to diagnose problems and swinging price schemes have me concerned. On different occasions, I've paid between $1.60 and $9.00 per quart of synthetic oil.

I will contact SOA regarding the clutch, but given the results others have had, I don't expect to get very far.

sb69coupe

Thanks for the input. I figured that the computer was incorrectly sensing a misfire, and possibly retarding timing or killing spark to the suspected cylinders. Hopefully the ECU will be back on Wednesday or Thursday.

As for the rental, I'm making do without it. The dealer is about a 20 minute ride away. Instead of making multiple trips with my kids to get the dropped off, I'm driving my '69 Corvette in the interim. I just love manual steering, manual brakes, and no A/C in the 95 degree heat!

ateixeira

paisan has a point, the X5 has had 14 recalls already, many for engine fires. I'd take clutch chatter over that any day.

My dad had a Camry in Belize that burned up, but that doesn't make Camrys unreliable. I should ask him if he got a photo. It burned up on the highway while they were driving, and got out just in time.

Having the 2nd dealer 70 miles away stinks. But honestly? I'd make the trip, just ask for a loaner. I bet your dealer doesn't even deal with Subarus primarily. Do they sell other makes?

We in DC are spoiled, there are at least 7 dealeres I can think of within reasonable distance.

-juice

lemonrider

Juice,

My local dealer is Hyundai/Audi/Subaru. They also sold Porsche for a while, but I believe they are not anymore.

The clutch is not chattering, it is shuddering. It seems more common when the vehicle is cold. When releasing the clutch at a normal rpm, the entire vehicle shakes and shimmies. After a few miles, it dissipates.

I also could deal with chatter, I wouldn't like it, but I could live with it.

kens

rider,

I completely understand your point and frustration. Have you had the dealer document your concerns every time you visit them? If yes, then try calling Subaru Customer Support and give them a chance to help.

Ken

ateixeira

Hyundai? That explains it! (kidding!)

I'd call 800-SUBARU3 and politely request that they look at your service history. They'll see that you've been patient, and put up with far more than your normal share of issues.

Then ask if they can contact the dealership to work with them to provide a long-term solution for you.

A shudder is obvious enough and can likely be reproduced for the dealer. It is not "normal" because neither of my Subies does it, and both are manuals (48k on one, the other is new). If the dealer makes that claim, that's where I'd get Subaru Customer Service to intervene.

-juice

lemonrider

The shudder is difficult to diagnose, it usually happens when it is cold, although it has been hot and humid lately and the shudder is present.

I will try the SOA customer service route, but I've been down that path before - with no resolution. It would be nice if they could identify the problem, but more than likely they will deem it "normal" for that vehicle.

I am quickly running out of patience with this vehicle.

lark6

I can relate. My wife's Accord was in the shop for 2 days last week. I loaned her my Forester while driving my '63 Studebaker Lark sedan to work each day. Also 95 degrees both days, power nothing and no a/c - and probably 1/3 the horsepower of your 'Vette!

Good luck,
Ed

cptplt

lemonrider - does your dealer have a subaru certified master tech or better still senior master tech? They may only have some young guy with little Sube experience. The closest dealer to me goes through techs so quick its worrying! Fortunately there is a guy who is a senior master tech who started his own shop in the area.

There are some posts at i club about the clutch chatter etc, seems any solid link as opposed to cable link system is susceptible to it, you may have a real bad case of this. Hope it gets resolved.

I'm on my 4th Sube in the last 10 years and having had several Honda/Acuras, two Audis and one Bimmer in the past (of my decent cars not the junkers I had when younger - Ford Pinto, Dodge Horizon and an assortment of things in Europe with less hp than my present lawn mower!) I would say overall the Subes have been the most reliable and best bang for the buck by far. But you could truely have a lemon too!

Early and late ownership exeperiences can be quite different. My Integra was great till the engine self destructed. Audis were perpetually needing something done. They were almost as bad as my Dads 70s Jaguar!Just as well they give free maintenace nowadays! The Bimmer was fine except needing a new ECU every 12-18 months - though it was always covered but what a hassle! Wifes Windstar was great and absolutely reliable till tranny died at 50K and engine at 75K, Venture now has 40K and absolutely nothing wrong mechanically (too bad about the incredibly cheap interior trim which falls apart when you look at it or a kid touches it) but I'm just waiting for that GM powertrain to go to hell anytime in the next 10-20K!

Good luck but don't let this experience sour you too much on Subes.

lemonrider

I'm not sure if my dealer has a Subaru Certified Technician, I'll have to check. In their defense, I haven't been impressed with any of other repair shops in the area.

As far as owning another Subaru - If I decide to get another, it will be a WRX. The WRX seemed much more solid. We test drove and Outback and a WRX the same day, the difference was like night and day.

ateixeira

rider: ask them to put that statement, about it being "normal", in writing. Then tell them you're going to share it with your on-line club.

If it were normal, I wouldn't have bought a 2nd Subaru, plain and simple.

Too bad you're not local (in DC), I'd head to a dealer in Gaithersburg with you, since I know a mechanic that works there.

-juice

wjh2

My shuddering clutch also started off as being especially bad in the winter on the first few engagements but lately seems to pop up on hot days when I don't expect it. In getting the dealer to diagnose the problem, I left the car overnight and they acknowledged the issue the next morning upon driving it cold.

I have a hunch that Subaru is well aware of this problem. I have noted that the 2003 model year press releases mention a new "flexible flywheel" in the 5-speed models. The only reason I can think of to change the design of a part like the flywheel is to save money, either because the new flywheel is cheaper to manufacture, or because replacing clutches under warranty is costing the company more than a design change would. The latter is more likely true because why would Subaru advertise in a press release that they used a cheaper part. If that is the case, perhaps there is hope of a fix for older models as well.

Has anyone else seen any info on the new flywheel assembly for the 2003 models? Let me know if I am off the mark on this hunch.

Bill

craigmc

I have a 98 outback wagon with crossbars on the roof rack. what do I need to carry a canoe?
does subaru make something or do I look at other manufacturers to attach my boat to the rack?
thanks,
craig

emmaline

This past week my Legacy '02 wagon has started up again with a problem I'd not seen for while. When I first start up the engine, and shift into first gear, it shudders/misfires/bucks/pitches...I don't know what the correct word is, and are we all talking about the same thing? To me, it means that it doesn't engage into first, and sounds like it is going to stall. I give it more gas, play around with it, and it's ok. Because it hasn't happened for awhile, I thought maybe it was due to cold weather. Also, it may have stopped when I had my ECU reprogrammed. But now it is starting again.

emmaline

(Something is going on with my computer...I tried to break for a paragraph, and it didn't work, and the message posted. I apologize for the inconvenience.) To continue...the shudder, etc only happens when I shift for the first time into first gear...it does not happen when I shift into reverse to back out of my garage, and it does not happen after the first time or two. I'd just like to know if this is what others are experiencing.
As far as remembering to be polite and friendly to the people at the dealership goes, I am polite, but my experience is that they are not once they cannot shine me on, and get me out the door with a flakey explanation for a problem they have not resolved. Emma