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Comments
I'm sorry you are having a problem, but it appears to be what you are choosing. If we do hear from your attorney, I'll help the Rep. do their best in responding in a way that may eventually help you. It's just going about it the long way.
If anyone else has a problem like this, or any other concern, the steps are simple. They are also in your Owner's Manual. Let the dealer know. If you're not happy, let us know. Why do we have so few LL cases in an area where we sell a lot of cars? Because we do the right thing. That alone should tell you that we are interested in getting involved.
Patti
As I am sure you are aware (based on your previous contacts with us), we do assist whenever we can. I know that the Representative that was advised of your case will be contacting you directly.
I will not post any further on your case on this site.
Thank you.
Patti
Bill: please let us know how it goes. I'll ask Jake if he actually looked at it himself.
So the saga ends mysteriously. Please keep us posted on the resolution one way or the other. I think it could be of benefit to others.
-juice
I used to always buy the factory manuals for these little procedures, but they have gotten so expensive and it seems I do less and less of my own work. Thanks.
Jim
Mixing brands does not matter unless one or the other brand specifies that it is not compatible. I have never, ever seen this for manual transmission oil and have never heard of an incompatibility to mixing. The oil should, of course, be the correct type (GL-4, GL-5, etc).
As to weight, again there is no incompatibility to mixing. Of course the mixed oil weight will correspond to the ratio of each different weight mixed into it.
I would not bring my car 90 miles to have someone add oil to it. However, I would never, ever, ever let someone else add oil or any fluid to my vehicle without checking the level before driving off. Ever. This is why I do all my own work - people who get paid slightly more than they would at McDonald's do fluid changes as a reflection of the skill level it takes to do them. Small errors on their part will easily destroy a $1500 vehicle part so it's simply not something you should take for granted when this type of service is performed on your car. Ever.
IdahoDoug
Thanks in advance for the suggestions.
Paul
I notice the the 2002 Legacy (not outback) wagons have seats with a steel shell for the bottom, not the spring/wire setup. How can I go about finding out if these seats are a bolt in for my intolerable Outback seats.
With the amount of rain you drive in there, I'd consider a rain oriented all season over a touring or worse, performance tire. Happily, you also want quieter running, so it again points away from performance tires.
CptPilot on this board and Paisan had some great input on tires a month or so back. I am a Michelin diehard and put the X1's on my Subaru recently. They're extremely quiet and are rated by Michelin even higher in the wet than their own RainForce tire.
In your area, you also have some of that grooved pavement with slight indentations where the tires ride. Other tires I've had would swerve/pull a bit when crossing these but the X1's track undisturbed across them under the Subaru. We have these grooves even worse over in Idaho and this characteristic was nice to find. The X1's were a bit spendy, but they're notably quieter and more comfortable than the original tires were.
Hope this helps.
IdahoDoug
Thanks again. I'll checout out the Michelin.
Paul
I thought it was that the seat did not tilt at all on the older models but I see from a few archived posts that it may also be structural.
I went to the dealer today to look at the 2003 LL Bean and the salesman said Soob had had complaints about the seats and they are now six-way adjustable. The leather LLBean seats felt a lot firmer and more supportive, but I think it's somewhat ridiculous to trade in a perfectly good, paid-for car that has been 100% trouble free, and can take me through a blizzard over Echo Summit without chains, just to get new seats.
So, if there is a bolt-in, better-quality FIRM and supportive seat available for the 1997 Outback I would also like to know. Thanks.
Handling with the Sport A2's seems to have improved, too, although this really isn't the sportiest-handling car to really test tires in! For the $$ (about $100 each), the Dunlops seem to be an excellent choice.
Paul: if you don't get snow, my Nitto NT460 tires are quiet and durable. They're fine in dry and even rain, but horrible in snow. Discount Tire Direct sells them.
For seats, I'd measure the tracks and look at them closely. I bet many are interchangeable, but that's just an educated guess.
WRX seats are very nice, and even the new Forester's seats are very supportibe and have great lateral support. So check i-club.com to see if someone is selling theirs to put in Sparcos or somerthing like that.
-juice
I'm very new to this forum, and am seeking information about the following puzzling situation;
I live in ON, Canada. My parents purchased a 2002 Legacy Wagon September 2001. We have been having constant problems with the brake rotors warping. They have been replaced twice already (at 3000km and again at 12000km) and the problem is still occurring(18000km). Brakes haven't been misused, and the dealer has not been able to identify the cause. Has anyone been encountering this kind of problem or have a recommendation as to where we should go?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Cheers,
Tanya
bit
Remind them to use a torque wrench, and 70 lb-ft of torque for alloys, 75 for steel.
-juice
Well it is good to know that other people are not encountering the same problem. Hopefully we can figure this out soon. Look forward to any additional suggestions.
Hmmm...I'm due for one of my "lifetime" tire rotations. I guess I should follow my own advice. 8~)
Jim
At highway speeds the steering wheel rapidly and lightly shakes from side to side, like the tires are out of balance. It is not a severe shake. You can stop the shake by gripping the steering wheel. After driving for some time, if you hit the brakes hard the steering wheel really shakes though. You can feel the shaking wheels through the brake pedal too. It does not feel like warped brakes though. (The brake pedal does not pulse.) Balancing the tires has no effect. (The tires are out of balance because of the shaking, but the shaking continues after being balanced.)
The dealer hasn't been able to figure out the problem, partly I think because they haven't driven the car for many miles on the freeway. After my last visit, the service rep. said it sounds liked a slight warp to the rotors. They've inspected the brakes a couple of times. He said it wouldn't likely be wheel bearings because they usually make noise if bad.
So what do you experts think? Should I have them machine the rotors without a definitive diagnosis? Any other suggestions?
Thanks
Alignment
Bad strut
Have you tried rotating your tires to see if it changes?
bit
Juice & Jim - thanks for your thoughts and when the rotors get replaced AGAIN - we'll take a look at the lugs most definitely. As Bit suggested, it just seems crazy to think that the dealer would repeatly make this mistake.
~Tanya
You might also have the tire shop rotate the tires half a turn on the wheel, then re-balance. Maybe if there's too much weight on one side of a tire, it's throwing it off.
The latter is more of a guess, but it's also worked for other folks I'm aware of.
Good luck.
Cheers!
Paul
(noting that Pauls are slowly but surely catching up to the Daves)
Once a vehicle has developed a shimmy or brake pulse, the tires can very quickly have a pattern worn into them that will continue the shimmy even after the problem has been cured. It happens surprisingly fast, and this pattern will not decrease as the tires wear - sometimes even increasing.
You might consider finding a cooperative tire shop (they become very cooperative when you mention you might be replacing 4 tires BTW) that will let you watch the tire spin on their balancing machine. This way, you can look very closely (use safety glasses against flying gravel) to see if there's a wavy pattern worn into the tread - high spots, low spots etc. If you're courageous and they're REALLY cooperative you can hold a piece of chalk and barely touch it to the tread to see if it will mark high spots only instead of a nice constant mark. There is always a bit of movement, so it's a judgement call you need some experience to make.
I've put my vehicle up on 4 jack stands in gear at idle and been able to identify a slightly out of round tire in this fashion. But this is clearly dangerous and I do not recommend it without redundant safety preparations.
Having said all that, I'm assuming your comment that they do this on the freeway was under the condition of simply driving along, right? Not happening only while braking? If it only happens while braking then ignore this post as it would be brake related.
A final thought that may help you and/or Tanya. If you're only warping front rotors on any car, it may be a problem with the f/r distribution of braking force. Obviously, putting too much power to the fronts would eventually overheat them in a condition that balanced brakes would not. Most cars have a f/r brake proportioning valve that would be the culprit.
IdahoDoug
IdahoDoug
The shaking occurs at highway speeds. It is only noticable in the brakes after the car has been driven for some time. There is no pulsation in the brakes... it just feels like the tires are shaking. No aftermarket wheels.
-Eric
I took it to the dealer the next day, who quickly looked at the master/slave hydraulic unit, but didn't see anything wrong at that time. They told me to bring it back in if it happened again.
I have almost 36K on the vehicle. This is my second clutch (1st was replaced at about 28K). I also sometimes get a shuddering 1st thing in AM when shifting from 1st to 2nd. The service mgr. said that it was likely due to mfrs. not being able to use asbestos anymore, and that he didn't think anything could realistically be done.
I have had no clutch problems with any other of my vehicles over the last 30 yrs, including my 97 Legacy L (with the hill-holder clutch).
Jim
Tanya: that brake master cylinder affected my car, but my rotors never warped. After 47k miles the brakes are still smooth and I have plenty of pad life left, knock on wood!
If the brakes squeel, have the pads inspected. It may be a sign that they are worn.
Once rotors warp, it's too late to re-torque the wheels (though you should anyway, for proper balance). That's why I do it myself.
-juice
Do you have any additional info on the recall specific to warped rotors? I can't find any info about the recall on NHTSA's web site.
Vince
bit
That clutch shudder unfortunately seems to be normal. I've had the same problem with my 2000 Legacy GT since I bought it. It not only shudders in the morning, but I've also noticed it driving home in the afternoon.
The clutch also seems a bit "grabby" - it doesn't actuate smoothly. This seems to happen on cooler days.
Not sure how to pursue this with the dealer now... we have already had the rotors replaced twice. It would seem that there is a greater problem.
Thanks all, Tanya
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
Explain a bit more when the shaking occurs, and how the brakes are not pulsating the pedal, but you feel it in the brakes only after driving a while? I think you should devote a bit to what the shaking feels like - in the steering wheel? In the seat? Or when you apply the brakes? Front tires, rear tires or both?
As a general comment, if you've had tires replaced and the problem remained you have to consider the car is the problem statistically. The dealer having found no problem with the struts, brakes or shocks (struts and shocks are one and the same on your vehicle BTW) means nothing as the problem lies in there somewhere.
IdahoDoug
-juice
Basically if it just blinks during startup and then goes out it's fine.
-mike
At lower speeds you can feel a little shimmy at a slower rate. (Tires are rotating slower.)
Braking is usually normal with no vibration or pulsation felt through the pedal. However, if you have been driving the car for some time and hit the brakes (offramp or going down a mountain), you can feel a more severe shimmy that is felt through the pedal and steering wheel. It feels like the wheels are wobbling (like the tires are out of balance). I've driven cars that have warped brakes and this feels different. You don't feel a pulsation through the pedal - just a rapid shimmy that feels the same through the steering wheel.
It feels like all tires are shaking. Of course the tires do go out of balance with this shaking but balancing the tires has no effect on the shaking. The shaking is not severe enough to really be felt through the seat. Changing all four tires has had no effect on the shaking.
I guess machining the rotors might help, but I'd like to at least get a diagnosis that the rotors are warped before proceeding. Does it seem like a slight warp that only occurs when the rotors heat up would be the problem? Shouldn't the dealer be able to determine this?
Thanks.
Eric
I'm going to assume several things here so let me know if any of them are wrong:
-You bought the car new with 0 miles, not a demonstrator or anything like that.
-The car has not been in either a body type accident or sustained any damage from going into a ditch or anything of that nature.
-The car has done this since new.
-The wiggle/wobble happens without touching the brakes.
-You have factory alloy wheels.
If all the above are true then you have a fairly tough diagnosis on your hands. I'm not for a second going to say this is the source, but even the best automakers will occasionally put a car together that has a bad part such as a hub that was not made perfectly round, or that has its center hole drilled off a couple thousandths of an inch. It's then up to a truly excellent dealer to find out what is amiss and I think you MAY be in that category.
Personally, this is what I would do if it were my car. I'd find a garage, dealer - whatever - someone with a rack that would lift my vehicle up a couple feet off the ground while it's running and in gear and let me use chalk around the spinning wheels. Good luck. I've done this with an AWD vehicle at home using 4 jackstands but it is definitely not for the faint of heart. It did instantly reveal the problem I had, which was the tires were slipping on the rims. They'd constantly go out of balance, and also out of round briefly as one or the other bead "caught" and produced a slight buckle in the tread for a hundred miles and then it would slip again and be round.
What I did was use chalk held closer and closer to the tire tread until it started to mark the rubber. Obviously, you want the chalk to start touching and drag on the entire circumference to show it's perfectly round. I did the same for the rim lip. Then I removed all four wheels and did the same for the brake rotors - both lateral movement (warp) and roundness.
Basically, this will quickly reveal what is not perfectly round or true. Whatever is not round or true is causing your problem. In your case, I'd skip the tires since you've been through a couple sets and go right to checking the rims and checking the brakes.
You could engage front wheel drive only if your model has the "FWD" feature and then only lift the front wheels on jackstands at home. SInce the front appears to be your problem (steering wheel shimmies) this may make sense and of course be easier. That way you can put the parking brake on, chock the rear wheels and have a bit more safety if doing this at home.
So, if you're not mechanically inclined this may be of only marginal help as it may be tough where you live to get someone to assist you due to liability. But this technique will quickly reveal any such issues. Let us know if you proceed with this type of troubleshooting and what you find.
IdahoDoug
Mark
-mike
- The car was rear-ended (new hatch & bumper cover). An alignment has been done since then.
- The wobble seemed to really occur when the 1st set of new tires were put on. There was a little bit of vibration since new with the OE tires & they got worse as the OE tires wore badly, but the wobble when braking seems to have gradually developed since the 1st set of replacement tires were put on.
-Eric
bit
Patti
Thanks!
Patti
Ron Brady was on vacation until Aug 12, so I said I'd wait.
-Eric