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Comments
I think Honda and Toyota have been living on their reputations from the '80s and '90s and basically are riding out the wave of "well my '80s and '90s toyota/honda lasted 150K, so I'll buy another one" meanwhile they have cut costs.
Just my thoughts on why they don't seem to last as long, at least a contributing factor.
-mike
Depends on how you define problems. Sorry, I don't intend to pull a Clinton here. :-)
I'm just saying odds are pretty good you'll have at least several small problems by 150k, and possibly 1-2 big ones.
The odds of zero problems for 150k are maybe 10 to 1.
Think about it - lots of folks change their water pump when they do the timing belt at 60k miles, because they're not expected to last 120k.
Look at things like your CV boots - they are rubber, not some space age material that will last forever. After about 10 years, you can expect the rubber to start to rot and soon that grease will leak. Same with the axle boot. Radiators rust. The vinyl top on my Miata (straight A reliability for 13 years) cracked because the vinyl is old and brittle.
You might consider those wear and tear items, and if so that's a little more believable. I guess you could say "no major mechanical failures for 150k miles" and I'd agree.
It's not like Honda or Toyota invented a special rubber that lasts forever.
-juice
Did the Japanese invent a "special rubber that lasts twice as long"? Unequivocally, yes. There are small decisions made at each step in the process and the Japanese make the nod in the direction of quality. In rubber alone, there are hundreds of grades, qualities and design differences.
I think the question NYGREG asked above is highly relevant and really the key to the discussion. He asked what are these failures and is one companies "failures" comprised of a water pump where another's are engine main bearings that basically destroy the engine? I'd like to know that, also and presumably CR would tell us rather than lumping these as equivalent.
We carried out extensive quality comparisons that basically had competitive vehicles driven around the clock until they accumulated 100k miles. Failures were noted. The data showed overwhelmingly that Japanese cars are FAR more durable and reliable than American cars. This data was collected by GM, by the way.....
GM and American cars continue to get better, but the gap is tough to close.
IdahoDoug
Of all the cars my family has taken to 200K none has gone there for free. Sure we pay a little here and a little there, but my beef is that for a car that is 3 years old to start dropping $2k per problem is counter to our previous experiences.
My dad's 'charter owner' '86 Acura was an incredible car until '95, when just at 200K everything started failing at once. Their '87 Pontiac wagon never really 'died' like that in 1999 - they just started having too many overheating problems to feel comfortable driving it any more. I guess that's the Asia/US difference. As another point of reference, I just sold my '77 BMW 320i last fall. It was a one-owner prior to me and it was still running completely untouched (mechanically) 25 years and 175K miles later. I drove the snot out of it without putting anything more than a $12 thermostat in it during my tenure with it. Of course the rear strut towers rusted out completely, but the guy that bought it from me drove it from DC to NC in one shot and it turned into a donor car for him. That's reliability.
keith
Steve
Just my .02 cents.
-mike
I think labor/management relations have a lot to do with product and service quality in everything we buy. I also think it has to come from more than just an attitude or message that gets filtered down to the rank and file. Companies have to invest in the line worker, show them they are more than an interchangeable piece of meat and an important part in the success of the company. The existence and influence of labor unions in the US has had a mixed bag of results in that area.
Engineering and design tolerances are obviously a key factor as well. Some manufacturers, for example, place a heavy value on getting switchgear to move in ways to please consumers' senses of touch and sound.
Steve's post about the ability to obtain raw materials of equivalent quality at lower cost also raises the possibility that maybe GM doesn't care about getting those materials. It's that concept of planned obsolescence, taken to extremes.
Ed
Heck, the CEO is nicknamed Carlos "le cost cutter" Ghosn. And it's not unique to Nissan, they've all been cutting costs, including Subaru (just read a press release where they mentioned it, ugh).
Keith: I agree. A $2k problem is serious. But I do think that one or two $700 problems is perfectly normal after 5-7 years. Heck our 626 had 5 such problems in 7 years, and it's rated as reliable.
As for import/domestic, two good examples are Mazda and Mitsubishi. Mitsu has taken a nose dive since they have more and more in common with Chrysler. Mazda too, by using Ford parts and even sharing platforms (Tribute is easily their least reliable vehicle).
But look at the Miata - built in Japan and all aces in reliability. So Mazda still has the ability. Their philosophy isn't the problem. It might be the "lowest bidder" philosophy that Ford and Chrysler have.
Someone comes in a bids a cheapo widget at 2 cents less than quality widget, and the bean counters calculate the volume and decide they'll "save" big money due to volume.
Then the cheap widget breaks or warps or fades or squeeks or rattles, gets recalled, and generally turns away buyers. Have you seen how much market share GM has lost?
Ed reminds me of what Hyundai did to the Canadian plant, they shuttered it and left the community unemployed and with big debts.
-juice
The Focus is veiwed as a very low quality vehicle, but somehow the Civic has a good enough rep that people give it the benefit of the doubt.
But you really think a Civic that had 6 problems out of the gate will have ZERO problems for the next 10 years? Doubtful.
-juice
Greg
the car has been sitting overnight and I just pull it out and look at it or if I wipe it, reinsert then pull out and read (cold, warm or
hot)! The oil is above / below and all over the add / full marks on the dipstick (VERY FRUSTRATING...). I owned this car for over a year
now and do my own oil changes, so I just make sure that I put "exactly" 4.2 quarts in then hope it doesn't burn or leak! Please advise, as I have owned many other make cars and NEVER had this problem... Thanks
I am not familiar with the Subaru design process relative to Toyota and Honda, but I would guess it is similar.
BTW, I agree that major car components should last upwards of 150 - 200k miles before failure; I expect that. Sure, there might be one or two isolated failures but not a systemic failure of lots of subsystems. That's poor design.
Mike
Perhaps the monetary impact was bigger because their reputation for reliability allows them to charge more for a Camry than most other cars in its class.
-juice
Robert, you're not alone with the 2.2 dipstick follies. My theory is that capillary action keeps the entire dipstick marked area wet even if it sits overnight. Here's the only way I've been able to get an accurate reading. When you get home for the night, open the hood and pull the dipstick. The next morning, insert the clean dipstick and you'll get one single accurate reading - reinsert and it will be screwed up again. It's the shape and location of the dipstick tube - maddening I know. On a trip, it works to a lesser degree if you immediately pull it and fill the car, clean the windows, pick your teeth and take a leak before checking the oil level.
IdahoDoug
Greg
A well built car will survive the warranty period.
A well designed car will survive 200K miles.
keith (my shortest post yet!)
Greg
Frank
I've never had the doors panels apart, sorry.
-juice
Greg
On the brake poster, what year are you talking about?
IdahoDoug
-mike
'95 Legacy wagon - eats pads and warps rotors like crazy ...thanks for reminding me what else I didn't like about that car!
'00 Legacy GT wagon - solid brake performance - pads probably replaced twice - front rotors replaced last year - rears last month (115K miles)
I'm guessing they changed something for the better.
I've been reading about Bendix rotors being less hot spot-prone (the cause of warping) than some OEM rotors. No experience yet but when our Honda Odyssey needs new rotors I'll be trying them.
-mike
I used to run regular in cooler weather and was rarely aware of the timing retard. But due to higher heat loads and A/C, I was acutely aware that the knock sensor was overactive in the warmer weather and went back to premium.
In the event your car reacts badly to the change in fuel, an ECU reset might be in order. But this is something you can do yourself. I believe the basic procedure is to disconnect the negative battery terminal on a cold engine for a half hour or so. Reconnect and start the engine. Let it idle until it comes up to full temperature. Drive away slowly, then resume normal driving practices for a few miles. The ECU should learn and adapt to the new conditions of driving style and fuel octane capabilities.
Crew - Did I leave anything out?
BTW, where in NY??
Steve
paisan beat me to it.
FWIW, I have the original pads and shoes on my '98 Forester after 50k miles.
-juice
MNSteve - Whee, the snow is almost gone - Spring!!!!
The knock sensor is designed to instantly respond to what the engine is doing. It is specifically designed to handle transitional (a few seconds worth) pinging and return to normal operation, and merely reacts to a tank of low octane fuel by doing nothing - until pinging occurs. Then it goes back to normal operation.
The knock sensor does not acquire a "memory" or get "stuck" in low octane mode and resetting the ECU will not impact it at all. Use the logic test on it. Would it make sense to have a system that slowly retarded the timing more and more and stayed in that mode when there is no reason? Of course not. The whole point of electronics is that they can respond instantly to transitional conditions, adapting to the moment to prevent engine damage while maximizing performance.
IdahoDoug
In the interest of brevity I glossed over some of the facts and speculations, so let me try this again. Disclaimer: No two mfgrs systems are the same, and they are constantly evolving with time. This is my understanding of how things can work. It may not fit with what you think you may know from your experiences at GM. And I admit that I don't know Subaru specifically, so all of the data may not fit here either. However, I am basing the knock discussion on some previous threads that involved factory people from Subaru dealing with a customer complaint on excessive knock. This involved ECU reprogramming by the factory to address some engine knock tendency that was outside of the 'ability to learn' parameters in the current mapping. Plus my own experience on the subject.
A knock sensor is simply one of some two dozen plus input parameters that the ECU takes into consideration. Knock sensors don't get "stuck", they just report the news as it happens. Programmed into the operating firmware (software probably contained in EPROM) is a 3D contour map that governs system operation. All of these sensors act like 'hands' on the side of a Oujiy board, moving the action point along the hills and valleys of this map. The map has certain built in biases, which limit how much influence any of these 'hands' can have on the map in any given situation. Some of these maps are adaptive - they can 'learn', or shift slightly with repeated inputs. The most obvious example: automatic transmission shift points.
So will a sudden change in knock rep rate cause a lasting change in map parameters, or only a momentary action with no global impact? In short, will the engine adapt, or is intervention in order? I am not really sure. But what her dealer suggested, IIRC, is consistent with factory action to a specific complaints on this board about 18 months ago. Try an ECU reset, and see if the knock will go away. Some reported an instant change. Sometimes it stayed gone, sometimes it returned in a week or so. Some had to have their ECU 'reprogrammed' - a permanent 'shift' to the program.
BTW, I had the same problem with my '00 Ford Windstar (3.8L V6). When excessive knock occurred, I would drive in to Colonial Ford. They would do a powered ECU reset (no charge), and I would drive away ping free for a couple of months. I had to do this twice before it stayed quiet.
And sensors are not perfect - they change values with time. The ECU will take the revised values as valid and respond accordingly until the parameters shift outside of the action limits. That's when you are most likely to get a CEL and the system will log an error. Most typical to have this type of soft failure are things like oxygen sensors.
Steve
Anyone else suggest a spefic brand or vendor for our colleague?
I think places like Midas advertise lifetime brakes, but they might milk you up front for those.
-juice
IdahoDoug, you're proving to be a great resource I just think you ought to be more careful with the wording sometimes. Some of us seem to be inferring a tone.
Take care.
Secondly, I agree with both you and Zman - I tend to be brief and to the point and I accept your criticisms. I approach cars from a fairly technical background and sometimes it manifests itself in a less than personable approach. Also a symptom of owning and operating two companies - not a good excuse since everyone's busy these days, eh?
FWIW, my experience is not only limited to being a former Product Planner at GM. I was also Worldwide Powertrain Planner at GM before leaving for Toyota and Lexus. Now I own a company that does product training for Mazda, Lincoln-Mercury, Toyota, Isuzu, Hyundai and others. So I have a fairly broad knowledge of what the various manufacturers are up to. In many cases, I think it would be safe to say that my background in vehicle systems may exceed that of a typical factory rep.
The ECU reset issue has been all over this board as a panacea for everything from stalling to pinging. Basically, this temporarily wipes out the adaptive aspects of the engine management system and returns things to factory default values. When you restart, this often means the timing is retarded (sorry, PC would be "developmentally challenged") and everything's in the 'safe' zone. Thus no ping. But the owner is not getting full performance or efficiency out of the engine until a map as you described gets rebuilt atop the factory presets and the engine moves toward more performance. True to form, if there's an issue causing ping it will begin pinging again and the knock sensor will pull the timing back in response in a constant cycle. No real gain is achieved, and during the rebuilding process you're spending more fuel money and running with less power.
The correct way to react to ping in my book would be to determine the reason and fix it. The most likely scenario in today's high tech engine would be the vehicle has been run on cheap offbrand fuel often enough that deposits have formed in the cylinders. I'm surprised at the number of people who pay $25,000 for a car and put junk gas in it to save $75/year (10 cents/gal X 750 gals/year).
Today's engines are running very close to max timing in order to burn all the fuel for emissions and to provide maximal horsepower. Electronics allow manufacturers to let the engine's timing dance right at the edge of ping all the time, so we're seeing more and more complaints about ping from every manufacturer.
To avoid this if you have it, I'd first try a quality fuel additive like Techron Concentrate (not regular Techron). Then use quality fuel, and put premium in every few tanks. It only takes a small amount of cylinder deposits to turn an engine designed to run on the ragged edge into a ping machine. Don't use cheap gas - you'll pay for it eventually when the engine loses efficiency.
Here's an industry secret for you, BTW. Many manufacturers require premium fuel simply because they know it will reduce the number of warranty issues because it is better for the engine. Premium fuels are higher quality and better for the entire fuel system, cylinder environment and even the emissions and exhaust - including the famous oxygen sensor. Yes, some do it so they can add 7hp to their engine rating, but many are after the lower warranty costs and higher customer satisfaction premium fuel produces.
At any rate, thanks for the input on my tone. As a final comment so you'll know I'm not such a bad guy, I'll try to garner some pity from you guys in that my sweet wife and darling kids have been in Vail on a ski trip for 10 days and I miss them and am probably grouchy. Then, the storm hit Denver and they've been snowed in in Vail for 4 more days and I can't take it any more. Just me and the cats. They're going to try to get out tomorrow morning and if they do I promise you won't see any more grumpy old man posts......
Later,
IdahoDoug
Back to the technical! We agree that a new map gets 'rebuilt' after an ECU reset. Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of adaptive management is that the new map may not be a 1:1 match of the map that was deleted. If that is the case, then a more pronounced input from the
knock sensor (from a change to lower octane gas & ECU reset) might generate a slight shift in map contour during this 'rebuild' phase? Maybe providing a deeper or more prolonged timing retard, slightly richer mixture, delayed upshift, etc., during hard acceleration thereafter?
Steve
FWIW, I did infer a much different tone in your last response. Very informative too, by the way.
Thanks for the kind comments.
Generally speaking, the knock sensor loop won't change after a reset. It is "dormant" until knock is sensed (more on this later) and then goes through a standard ritual of timing retarding, and then continues "listening" for more knock. If none is detected, some systems will advance a bit until knock is detected, others will stay retarded for a few minutes to be sure the added heat in the cylinder from knock is dissipated. Depends on the "aggressiveness" of the software and there are a lot of variations.
But their is generally no interface between an ECU reset and the knock loop. The knock loop focuses completely on instant adjustments to the timing no matter what else is going on with regard to the map. Wouldn't matter if the ECU has just been reset and is running on the defaults, or if the map has been refined over tens of thousands of miles.
If, say, the mfr decided that the knock loop's first response would be to retard timing by 4 degrees, it would not matter if the ECU was running off the defaults or the refined map - the timing's coming back 4 degrees. I don't even think the knock loop will "know" what the base timing is as this is irrelevent to a certain degree. It doesn't care if the knock is because someone put cheap gas in, or a teenager is learning to drive a manual and is flooring it from rest in 3rd gear - it will quickly retard timing based on the cylinder environment until no knock is detected.
Knock detection took a big leap forward a few years back with the introduction of piezoelectric sensors embedded in the block. Basically, these are vibration detectors, and they use vibration as a proxy for knocking. Knocking is simply pre-ignition and causes the block to vibrate in a way that is abnormal. Many V6 and V8 engines will have one in each cylinder bank for precise detection. In so doing, knock sensors can detect knock below the threshold of a driver's ability to hear it if the mfr chooses to be that aggressive with knock management.
The next generation is said to be a pressure sensitive sensor in each cylinder's head. Kinda like the move from fuel injected (single injector for all cylinders into intake manifold) to MPFI which puts an injector in each cylinder. That will allow for even more precise knock control and our kids will probably never even get to hear what it sounds like.
IdahoDoug
I agree - the knock loop response to an event (and return to the current value) is fixed. ==> A retard of X amount from the current value (what ever that is), then return. But it is the starting point, or 'current value' itself that's in question. As we both have stated, this began as a basic programmed lookup table, then was refined from maybe thousands of miles of driving. This new value will not change appreciably or quickly in response to a single event.
The initial factory defaults may have had a fairly conservative spark timing profile. With time, the advance curves were refined, assuming the ECU rarely registered a knock event. Now something radical changes - tanks of cheap gas. The knock sensor goes into hyperactivity. The standard spark retard cycle comes into play very often. If this becomes a continuous event, a true 'learning / adaptive' system should begin the slow task of rewriting the 3D map to accommodate the new conditions, offering less advance for a given set of driving conditions.
The idea of the ECU reset quickens the task. Back to the milder factory defaults, and a fresh rebuild of the maps using the 'new' real world conditions of more easily induced ping from cheap gas. It might not be the best approach, but the new map should have advance curves that are different from the previously created set.
Some of the lab equipment I am familiar with use 'learning lens tables' to do a similiar function. They will adapt slowly on their own to changing conditions, or can be forced into a more rapid global reset and relearn. The software exists - just a matter of whether the automakers have adopted it.
Steve
-mike
MNSteve
I agree with you on the milder factory presets - that would be logical and typical for the industry. Over time, the cylinder environment will determine the map's parameters and each engine varies a bit in terms of its optimal operation (cam grind, various mfg tolerances, altitude, etc). As it ages, more changes occur that the ECU can adapt to. FYI, most current vehicles also interface with the auto tranny and adapt to the aging of the tranny by moving shift points, line pressures, etc to keep shifting smooth over the miles.
So, I think we agree on the basic working parameters, but differ on the benefits of the ECU reset in terms of controlling knock. I feel the ECU reset causes the engine to operate inefficiently for at least as long as it would take for the engine to adapt to transient knock conditions of cheap gas, a trip to the mountains, etc. Without specific knowledge of Subaru's logic circuits (time to respond, % change of the response, etc) I'd enter into the speculation arena now that we've taken the discussion up to this level as to the system response. Most systems are similar these days, but each manufacturer has their own beliefs and preferences.
If I personally began experiencing knock, I'd look for what has changed (needs plugs, bought cheap gas in a hurry, etc) and change it. I'd also consider the Techron to reduce deposits in the cylinder environment - THE major culprit to knock after cheap gas.
Shlosser,
Is this a manual, or automatic?
IdahoDoug
Seriously, Doug - excellent discussion. It took a few days, but I think we covered a lot of ground. I understand your point about not jumping to do an ECU reset without giving due thought as to the reason why, and the consequences of your action. Hope others on the sidelines got something from the exchange.
Question for you. Considering how often batteries are disconnected for servicing the vehicle, or get run down by accident, why would a mfgr leave the ECU maps in volatile memory (requiring keep alive power) rather than write them into flash or other static media? I had never heard of 'user resets' before coming to this board. Is this a universal method, or do some require an active clearing by diagnostic computer interface?
Steve
I'll be putting in a new front O2 sensor per this boards' recommendations and see how it goes. I can't see why they would want to replace 2 cats when they aren't running rough or anything.
Oh, and I should do a 'hard' ECU reset, correct?
keith