Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

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Comments

  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Well Jay, so much for the manual tranny theory.
    :-)

    -Dennis
  • schizasschizas Member Posts: 3
    I took my car in for the same reason noted by a couple of people recently. My car is 1.5 month old with 1002 miles on it. It has stalled at a red light 3 times. We took in for repairs and they did a diagnostic check and the result was " no fault codes". They then replaced the ignition relay after consulting SOA Tech. Today my wife's car stalled for the 4th time, but this time she was starting to accelerate when it stalled in the middle of an intersection. This is now dangerous to drive this car. We're taking the car in again this Friday. We bought the Suburu because of their reliability and safety. I'm now 2nd guessing my decision. The car normally runs smooth, exept for the stalling.
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    Well I went to pick up my OB last night after being told everything was done, and that it was all covered under the warranty. That included the LOF I went in for, so the trip was supposed to cost me nothing. The dealer even managed to get the loaner covered under the warranty.

    I picked up the car last night. After a quick walk around I left the dealer. As I was pulling into a parking spot at a nearby food place I heard a "pop" and thud sound, followed by what sounded like rubbing from the front end. I quickly took the car back to the dealership and left it with the sales area and took the rental back. With a 50 mile trip home I was not going to take any chances.

    This morning I received a return call from the service Manager (Diane). She said 2 different techs drove the car. One found nothing. The other heard something like a backfire. I told her I didn't hear anything like that previously to dropping the car off on Sat. Now, I'm waiting to hear back from them. Any ideas?

    Mark
  • rob999rob999 Member Posts: 233
    timing belt jumped a notch, or off by a notch?
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Could be the timing belt.

    -mike
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    Timing belt at 41000 miles? I thought they are supposed to be good till 90K.

    I'm still waiting to hear from the dealer.

    Mark
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    may have been damaged during the head gasket re-install? Just grasping at straws, not even sure if they have to take it off during that process?

    -mike
  • rob999rob999 Member Posts: 233
    Sube engines are overhead cam, right? If so, timing belt removal would be required to remove head and replace gasket. Could've been re-installed incorrectly or with not enough tension. The belt itself could still be fine, unless damaged at installation or if the tensioner was not adjusted correctly and the teeth jumped over a drive gear.

    Could be something completely different, too.
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    Well I picked up the car last night. Flemington called just as I was getting ready to leave the office. They determined that the cause of the noise was one of the spark plugs was arcing, causing the car to backfire. They replaced it, and after test driving the car with the trip back home, evrything appears to be back to normal. Evrything under warranty as well, so caost was $0.00.

    Mark
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good to go. Let us know if the problem creeps back up.

    -juice
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    my '00 Outback with 28k miles doesn't appear to have any head gasket seepage. (knocking on wood!)

    -Brian
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Both of ours have never leaked a peep, a '98 Forester with 50k miles and an '02 Legacy. We'll almost certainly be repeat customers again.

    -juice
  • mrk610mrk610 Member Posts: 378
    02 outback 22k miles . Only complaint is my cold engine knock.

    I'm knocking on wood (side of head ) now.

    mike k
  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    seems to be normal. Everyone I talk to says they have it and not to worry. A hockey buddy of mine rallies a Subaru- as he put it, they sound like lawn mowers when cold.

    Greg
  • firstovfirstov Member Posts: 31
    Why Subaru Outback weight is about 3700?
    Is it because of drivetrain or thicker body metal?
    How does that affect safety issues like cornering and braking?
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I didn't think it weighed that much. My SVX is only 3650!

    -mike
  • K9LeaderK9Leader Member Posts: 112
    The most common weight I've seen for an Outback wagon (2000+ model) is 3565, so 3700 is a good rounded estimate.
    Why so heavy for a relatively small car? I assume it is the AWD components adding weight, the structural rigidity components adding weight, and all the other gew-gaws of comfort and SUV-approximation adding weight.
    I am going to look at a 2000 Outback Ltd today. Will check for some of the common problems.
    --K9Leader
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    3700 is probably the high-end VDC model. Keep in mind that has 2 moonroofs, a 6 cylinder engine, AWD, etc.

    Our Legacy wagon tips the scales at 3345 pounds. So if weight is a concern just buy one of those.

    The Volvo XC weighs 3699 but uses a 5 cylinder turbo, while the allroad quattro weight in at a whopping 4167 lbs! Geuss it's that adjustable height suspension.

    -juice
  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    only adds about 150 lbs to the weight. I think a lot of it is the structure (integrity) of the car and that little power outlet in the back. ;)

    Greg
  • vince14vince14 Member Posts: 55
    Hi Guys,
    Hope this doesn't drag, but I don't write often.
    I've just passed 90k on my LTD wagon, things have been pretty good except...
    Tranny getting sluggish, backing up and switching to drive takes about 2-3 seconds
    Had tranny and diff fluid replaced, no improvement but did start getting intermittent burning smell (like latex balloons?)
    Do have an intermittent check engine light problem, diagnosed by Subaru and independent as Catalytic converter, 800-1000 to repair as OB's have 2 cats!
    Recently, in horrible snow conditions, car seemed more like FWD than AWD, with low-speed turning slippage. I know all cars slide on ice (amazing how most vehicles that drive off the highway are SUV's, have never seen a Subie) but this was more thick, slushy snow. I never felt threatened, but I think I sense more than I should in terms of movement.
    How can I be sure that the AWD is even working?
    The trail described could be related?
    When should I replace the cats?
    Hope everyone's well, hope to hear from you soon.
    Vince
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Are covered up to 100K miles IIRC because they are part of the emissions system. As for your AWD system it may be the tires causing the problem not the AWD system. When was the last time you replaced the tires? How is the tread? Is it an all-season? snow? if all-season is it winter biased? or more summer biased?

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, ask the dealer about the cats. Show him the print outs from the misfire codes. I doubt both are bad unless you somehow found the last gallon of leaded gas and used it. :oO

    If your mechanic has a lift, get all four wheels off the ground and just put it into drive. At least one tire on each axle should spin.

    -juice
  • otis123otis123 Member Posts: 439
    The LLBean is around 3750lbs. One of the reasons I bought it. Safer in a crash (all things considered) and helps keep it planted on the road. Why would you want a lighter car?

    Ralph
  • tenkmaniacstenkmaniacs Member Posts: 6
    Looks like flushing the transmission fluid didn't help. My outback is in the shop for the fourth time in three months, hopefully the transmission specialist I took it to will know what the problem is. I've always heard that subarus are great cars but after driving this 1999 since July 2002 I have to say my opinion has changed... next time I'm buying a German car ;-)

    ***1999 Subaru Outback Automatic Transmission Problems? by tenkmaniacs Jan 08, 2003 (11:57 am)
    I recently purchased a 1999 Subaru Outback Wagon (automatic transmission)....
    I've noticed that the car does not want to shift from reverse into drive (the engine will race until it finally shifts into drive). I've taken the car to two different mechanics only to be told that they can't find the problem. Has anyone else experienced a similar problem?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Almost sounds like a controller/electrical issue. I'd reset the ECU just to see if that changes anything.

    Otis: not everyone is shopping for a tank/vault for their families. Some folks drive alone and want something sporty that also has some room to haul their stuff when needed.

    There are 2 schools of thought - active and passive safety. Weight actually hurts active safety, i.e. there is more inertia, more momentum to overcome when braking or turning to avoid something.

    As you say, the weight helps passive safety if a crash is unavoidable, but IMO most collisions are avoidable.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    You bought a used one and are now blaming the manufacturer? Could have been abused previous to your buying it.

    -mike
  • tenkmaniacstenkmaniacs Member Posts: 6
    Not sure if you're replying to me but yes, I am blaming the manufacturer. I have all the service records for this car and it was well maintained by it's previous owner. If you look at previous posts on this board and other boards you will realize that I am not the only outback driver who has experienced this problem. Individuals who purchased theirs brand new from the Subaru dealer have had the same problem. Sounds a bit off if you ask me...
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I know lots of people with the 4eat myself included and none have problems with them (unless they've been abused)

    You may have service records but that doesn't tell the whole story of the tranny... All I'm saying is that before you go throwing darts at FHI and SOA, you should look back and see if there is either a simple fix, or something that could have caused the problem outside of the control of FHI/SOA.

    -mike
  • tenkmaniacstenkmaniacs Member Posts: 6
    Look, I'm not interested in getting into a long debate with you about this. I've been to 4 mehcanics in the past three months (including a local subaru dealership who recommended I go to a Big Chain-Aamco- Transmission shop rather than let them repair the problem themselves). I've been to many websites looking for any and all information I could find only to realize that many others (including Forester owners) have experienced similar problems. Maybe many abuse their cars but I do not and I bought this car from a very reputable dealership. You should consider yourself lucky that you have not had any problems with yours; it's extrememly unpleasant to always be wondering if today is the day my car decides to no longer shift into drive. I'd rather not be stuck in a parking lot (unlike the poor ealier poster who's wife and baby were stuck at a shopping center when their outback tranmission finally went).

    Allow me to vent if only to make others aware of the problem or to allow others to offer up valuable insight rather than attacking me for voicing my opinion.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We don't know the cause and won't ever know, so let's try to focus on getting it fixed quickly and cheaply.

    -juice
  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    Did any of the other people who had transmission problems find the fix? Was the fix a rebuild? I haven't heard of this and am curious.

    Keep us posted,
    Greg
  • wmiller4wmiller4 Member Posts: 97
    I have an '02 Bean and the thing I am not "hot" about the auto climate control is where the sensor for the control is placed. It is on the lower left corner of the Heating and AC control. And under that....a radio that gets hot as heck! During long trips I have to keep cranking up the temp to keep the cabin warm. I think the heat from the radio effects the sensor.

    I am not sure the sensor was placed in a good spot.
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    tenkmaniacs Mar 10, 2003 12:58pm

    You can't physically move the shifter from "Reverse" to "Drive", or you've already shifted to "Drive" but the 4EAT doesn't engage?

    If it's the later, the problem would lie in the electronics of the 4EAT, like juice had pointed out earlier. Your mentioning that the engine revs (races) until it shifts, is a thread of the 4EAT when you manually shift pre-maturely. The "gear" will not engage until the proper RPMs are achieved. In your case, the sensors must be thinking that the torque converter is still spinning in reverse mode [OK, I'm mechanically challenged], hence the high revving of the engine to neutralize the transmission and spin in the drive direction.

    Someone translate what I'm jibber jabbering about. ;-)

    -Dave
  • vince14vince14 Member Posts: 55
    thanks, Tex and paisan,
    the dealer is the first place I brought the check engine light to. Subaru's emissions warranty is for 8 years/8ok, bummer
    tires are second set, around 40k on them, tread still looks good, I don't run to the end of warrant on tires, do too much driving not to have good tires on my cars. they're Traction A all-season;
    Uniroyal tiger paw touring HR. Not my first choice, but some styles I liked were not available in the odd 16" size for this car.
    Any thoughts on sluggish tranny or how long to run with the bad cat? (I know the problem was with only one, but these guys look to replace everything, my local Subaru dealer wanted $40 to replace a burned out headlight! ($5 retail for an H1 in the store)
    It's a great car, though, I'd recommend it to anyone!
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I am gonna put you down when you make gross overstatements about the reliability of the 4EATs in subies. I am on just about every single subie board out there and have found a very rare occassion when the 4EATs fail. Yours is a very rare case. My guess is that it's your 1st gear duty solenoid not engaging. Most likely a re-build will be necessary they run ~$2500 for a 4EAT tranny rebuild at a repuitable shop.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That I agree with. The Subaru auto tranny is very robust and failure rates are extremely low. Not non-existent, but as a percentage of the ones out there, it's very low.

    As a percentage, there are far more complaints about the clutches, and even some on the manual trannys. But even those fall within the normal range, and lots were modified WRXs making much more than stock power.

    -juice
  • keithrichmondkeithrichmond Member Posts: 35
    I've now scrolled through all 63 pages looking for an answer to my problem and I'm amazed to see just on this last page the same problem.

    My parents have an '00 Legacy GT wagon that has been, shall we say, less than reliable. This is their second wagon and up until recently they were still flag waiving loyal roo'ers. Their current GT has 115K miles and was purchased Oct '99 - out of all warranties known to man. My Mom's been in to the dealer 5 out of the last 5 business days for one thing or another but the expensive one she's having to deal with right now is her CEL keeps coming on and the dealer diagnosed it as ' inefficient catalytic converters'. I read a while back that the '01-'02s had a service bulletin to reprogram the ECU, so I wasn't surprised when my parents paid $164 for the dealer to 'reprogram' the OBD. (I'm hoping they didn't pay $164 for the dealer to RESET the OBD but that's another story!) Anyway, they sent my mom on her way and said if it came back on they'd likely have to replace the cats/O2 sensors to a tune of $1900!

    Now here's the problem, they haven't had any driveability problems, and they pass their Maryland emissions inspections. A couple of times over the last year or so they've had the cold start stalling problem I've seen here as well but there's nothing to lead me to believe that they need to throw big $$$ back at the dealer. My parents are fanatical with their maintenance. They always have the dealer do all the work (including oil changes) and always seek out the name brand gas stations. They do travel a lot but it's easy highway miles.

    Let me take this time to say that I am by no means trolling. I'm the guy that wrote the Miata.net garage article on brake pad changes (thanks for the previous mention on this board). I'm every bit a 'car-guy' as they come, but I've never been a fan of my parents Legacy wagons. They like 'em and that's all that matters...I'm just hoping to help them a little along the way.

    thanks for listening,
    keith
  • otis123otis123 Member Posts: 439
    juice,

    True. As I age I prefer the weight. When I was in my 20s I loved my 76Rabbit because it was light weight and I could chirp the sucker in 2nd gear!

    And yes, the weight of an Outback can be a little tougher to stop and control when avoiding an accident. I agree.

    Ralph
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    That type of tranny problem doesn't sound familiar to me either. My wife has a 99 OB Ltd. and has not had any transmission problems. Where do you live? Maybe someone could refer you to a better dealer.

    Any idea of the level of techs at the dealer? Mine has several Master and Senior Master Techs. These guys were able to diagnose a tranny problem with my manual OB Sport that my previous dealer couldn't (Subaru Newbies:-) ).

    -Dennis
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Keith: I'd say the fix for a car with 115k miles that passed MD inspection is to disconnect that light bulb! :-)

    Seriously, though, it really passed MD inspection? Now they are actually checking the OBDII computers to pick up codes - so yours is the exact type of situation the MD test is supposed to fail.

    Still, you can ignore it for 2 years since it already passed. Or just try a Bosch O2 sensor, they run about $70 vs. $149 retail for the Subaru OE part. See if that helps.

    If the cat is clogged up, you'll get sluggish performance from a choking engine (literally, choking). So if power is OK my guess is you're ok with the cat. Besides, measured emissions were within the norm. I would *not* change the expensive cat that seems to be working.

    I never suspected you were trolling, BTW.

    -juice
  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    If the reprogrammed OBD is a service bulletin (had my 01 OB done), doesn't Subaru pick up the tab for that? I agree with Juice - try changing the Bosch O2 sensor and see if that fixes it. BTW, what don't you like about Subaru? Just curious.

    Greg
  • keithrichmondkeithrichmond Member Posts: 35
    ateixeira - I should clarify that my parent's car passed MD inspections before they started having the CEL problem. The last inspection was done October 2001. If indeed MD inspection will fail them by downloading any CEL fault codes then that is yet another reason Subaru should stop resetting the code and actually attempt to fix the ECU problem before October 2003(if indeed the ECU/O2 problem is the case!).

    nygreg - I agree that I think Subaru should pick up the tab for the 2 hours labor if they did the 'reprogramming' of the ECU the first time, though from what I've read here the service bulletin only covers '01 & '02 cars. If someone can tell me their '00 was reprogrammed free a certain service writer will be hearing from me.

    ...And here's today's update: My parent's are traveling from the DC area down to Florida today so my discussion with them was brief. My mom told me yesterday afternoon (this would be after she got the car back from the dealership with a 'reset' ECU) that when she started the car from a cold state, it sputtered and bucked so bad that she immediately shut it off. She waited another minute and re-tried it and things were smoother. I'm hoping that was just a case of the ECU trying to establish a baseline after a hard reset. Either way my dad humbugged is way into taking the car on the trip against my wishes. At least they have AAA but I don't like the idea of senior citizens stranded on I95 because the dealer told them to just drive it and ignore the CEL!!!

    So that brings me to my beef with subarus. It seems like the 2 that my parents have had were the ones built at 5pm on a Friday. The '95 Legacy wagon they had left them stranded a few times during the warranty period because of electronics problems (I wanna say the alternators were weak on the '95s?) and they had repeated overheating problems. I was surprised when they got the '00 GT wagon but they thought it was sporty and I'll admit that the newer engine is a lot smoother than the '95 was. To Subaru's credit, they had only minor issues during the warranty period on the '00. What bugs me is that they should be able to go for more than 3.5 years before ECU problems show up. OBDII had been out for what, 2 years already, right? Even if it is the cats, 115K miles is way too short knowing the gas they buy is always name brand.

    My hope out of this would be I can replace the O2 sensor with a bosch unit when they get back and have their problems go away. While I've enjoyed the last week of lunches with my mom (her dealer is near where I work) I'd like to see them drive for another 50K or so without major expense! Every car they've had for the last 25 years has turned 200K effortlessly and I'd like to see the GT hit it too. And anyone wondering where the '95 is - my brother has it. The overheating finally warped the heads and the deck beyond milling and they put a new engine in it a few months ago (at nearly 175K miles). My brother is a 'starving artist' and that's all he can afford...that whole engine thing definitely didn't improve my opinions.

    sorry for being so wordy.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I dunno, 115k miles is a lot for any brand. At that point it's all maintenance history and pure luck.

    You might want to call 800-SUBARU3 about the labor they were charged for, but it's probably a bit late now. Just keep that number handy for future use.

    175k is a long life, I wouldn't complain about that if I could get that out of all my cars. We tend to get anywhere from 75k to 107k miles before big enough problems creep along that we trade them in.

    -juice
  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    I think a car should reach 200K without a major problem, provided, the car was cared for. In today's age it shouldn't be luck. I have owned 3 Toyotas. Never had a major problem (~400K miles total now). I am hoping the Subaru does the same (I will disregard the head gasket if nothing else happens).

    Greg

    Disclaimer: Major problems mean, any major work to engine or transmission, power steering, etc. Replacing a water pump, CV joints and the like I consider OK after 120K miles.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Hmm you are comparing todays cars to 1990s era Hondas and Toyotas??? They are probably the most reliable cars built EVER.

    I agree with Juice, anything over 100K miles and you are doing well if you have no major repairs.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Have they taken it to another dealer? Does SOA even know about the problem? You can't really blame SOA if it's the local dealer that is jerking you guys around. Make sure to contact SOA at the # that Juice provided start a case and try a different dealer.

    As for the alternator in the '95 I believe there was a recall on them last year on the '95-'97 alternators.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    200k is optimistic. I'd say the best cars reach it, but the majority do not.

    Thing is, though, replacing an A/C compressor might set you back a grand or so, and if the car has over 100k miles you have to ask yourself if it's worth it.

    To me, usually the answer is no.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I found this interesting, if you have the CR Auto Issue check out page 85.

    An 8 year old Asian car has about 80 problems per 100 vehicles, about the same as a 4 year old domestic. But by then the graph has really turned the corner and the rate of problems is rising significantly (though still not exponentially).

    They don't show data beyond the 8th year, but my guess is by year 10 even Asian cars are not reliable.

    The average car is driven 12k miles per year, 9k average for females, 15k for males by the way (more useless trivia).

    So, I would project that by 120k miles, no car would pass my standards for being "reliable". They might or might not make it beyond that, but odds are you're gonna be putting up with a lot of little idiosyncracies, at least one per year at that point.

    -juice
  • otis123otis123 Member Posts: 439
    I agree with Greg...cars today should go at least 150K without problems... My 92 Camry went 161K+ and now has 175K w/ my friends son. Greg's Camry went 170+? My 96 Honda Accord has 105K and it still smells new LOL! If my 01 LLBean doesn't make it to 150K, I don't buy another Subaru!

    Ralph
  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    I believe what Mike said is probably true. My 92 Camry was incredible until about 180K. At that point it was items like CV joints and water pump - small items. I guess I don't understand why the long term reliability has slipped then. I don't buy the cost argument. Possibly, globalization. My Sienna definitely has squeaks and rattles you wouldn't expect from Toyota. Still think 120K is low. Also, what is behind those failures at higher ages? Are they water pumps, cv joints for one manufacturer and transmissions and engines for another? It doesn't say (you can look at the individual CR standings for this).

    Greg
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