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More Blanket statements!!! Do you have data on the opinions of the readers of CR about the Big Three? Please share that data with us. You are assuming that the readers of CR own import cars. That is an ASSUMPTION. You do not have facts. You simply make up blanket statements as you go along w/o any data to back it up.
anyone ever heard of a courier? ill take any of ya's on in one of them. bring it tirds. :O)
I guess they did something different on the '01 tacomas, as they have a 3 star rating.
This is true. What about those that bought ones that don't have the 3 star rating. What would you do it you owned one of them that have the one star rating?
And Pluto...for one who lives in a glass house...you sure do throw a lot of stones....
GOOD LUCK ON THIS ONE NOW......
As for Consumer Reports, I really don't look at their recommendation, and I never mentioned anything about their recommendations. They do, however, post good information on vehicles' reliability.
Tbunder, believe it or not, I HATE speaking Spanish, and never typed a word of it here until somebody wrote a few lines to me in Spanish first. Anyways, how would you know if it's idiotic? Do you read and understand Spanish?
darn refs. they gave missouri the game. dang! rematch will be here 'fore you know it though.
Sorry, but you have to be consistent - can't say CR, JD Powers and Edmunds is no good then brag about Motor Trend's articles.
But you see, us Toyota guys CAN be consistent. Toyotas almost always get good reviews.
Have fun with this one now!
Like I said, for every Toyota problem you find, I'll find half a dozen Chevy problems.
Oh, that guy with the piston slap? They fixed his engine by boring out that cylinder and then using a BIGGER piston in it. That's smart, one piston bigger than the others. Can you say VVIIBBBRRATTTTIIONNNN....
If I was a Chevy guy, and used my truck for work like you all proclaim you do, I would be angry about Chevy AT THE MOST giving me a rental CAR while the truck was in the shop for weeks/months at a time. Plenty of people complained they needed their truck for their work.
That Chevy can't give these poor folks a truck to use in the meantime is, well, pathetic.
The only thing I did agree with, however, is Toyota's crappy customer service. They're a bunch of arrogant schmucks. Toyota needs to address this issue with their dealers because it's getting ridiculous.
Man, you Chevy apologists are sure getting desperate to deflect attention away from the very real Chevy Knocking problem! There are hundreds of posts right here to Edmunds verifying this problem. No need to do an unsuccessful web search!
Funny game. Toyota vs. Chevy and who has the most problems.
You guys are on! Heehee
Happy Thanksgiving anyway!
But it sure is easy finding guys with knocking Chevy engines!
Hey Quad, since Chevy is so great, howcome the Chevy/Silverado Problems thread is always as the top of the list of topics? That's always a hot topic - too many problems with those wonderful Chevys.
And an engine on my Chevy S10 Blazer has started knocking few month ago, it's a 1993, I had 187K on it, highway miles. The 1.5 years I had the Blazer I've been to a mechanic for:
1. New distributor and whole nine yards.
2. New starter.
3. New fuel injector (and 10 month after that I was again told that injector was bad)
4. New exaust.
Plus, my uncle, who owned the truck for 1.5 years before that, had:
5. Fuel pump
6. Whole AC system replaced (Oh, and the AC died on me this summer)
The stack of receipts from mechanics was very impressive. I finally found someone willing to take a risk on the Chevy and sold it (they were told about all the problems)
Now, some repeating problems can be written off to bad mechanics (although after 1.5 years, when AC goes out, it's probably not mechanics fault).
When my family bought the blazer 3 years ago, it was fine. All service records, everything. My uncle drove the truck about 50K miles in 1.5 years (he now has a F150 with 60K miles, 1.5 years old) with a load in the back or pulling a trailer. Isnt this what trucks are designed for? So, where is the Chevy quality now? I promised myself that I'd never own a Chevy again.
AGAIN, please compare the 98 S-10's safety record to the 98 Tacoma and THEN come back here and tell me I made a bad decision...you sure throw stones, too...
I see that you live in a river in Egypt. Are you married? kids? And drive a truck with a one star side impact rating? Having suicidal tendencies?
How does one justify owning something like that...knowing if an accident occurs from the side that your chances of sustaining only minor injuries is 0. Is that what you often describe as ignorant? dumb? moronic?
AND, by the way, what tbunder says is true. What relevance does the S10 safety ratings have to do with your personal safety....unless of course you own one of them too?
You have had that Lemonado of yours in the shop 4 months! Makes you wonder you would post in the Chev groups - you sure don't help their cause. Maybe it is the "Lemming Effect" - Since one owner jumped off the cliff - he wants to drag as many other truck (Chevy) owners off the cliff with him?
My point is in 1998 I wanted a new compact P/U. The Tacoma is no worse overall than the others offered. Why don't you criticize them as well? Oh no, that would mean criticizing a Chevy. Hypocrite.
Speaking of safety - I'm pursuing my commercial and instrument rating right now, flying around in a Cessna 172 hardly designed for survivability in a crash. To top it off, the field I use has a really nasty cross-wind. I love flying, and I won't stop. I accepted a job in Tlaxcala, MX, hardly one of the safest places to live. But it's been an interesting and great experience. My life doesn't revolve around safety and what MIGHT happen at any given moment. A little common sense will keep you safer than a door with 2 more starts on impact test results. Judging by your posts, you have little to no common sense.
Better not eat any gravy tonight. You know, that cholesterol can really kill you, obyone.
I guess you get used to low expectations as a Chevy customer.
Un
Seriously, though: Que tengan un buen dia de gracias!
>"the 4.7L Tundra is the ONLY powerplant that really FEELS like a V-8."<
Exactly who's V-8 does does it really feel like? Are they inferring that it shakes and vibrates and gulps gas like V-8's of the past? Or that V-8's from Ford, Dodge and GM don't feel like V-8's because they are smooth, economical, quiet?
"Underneath the hood of our Tundra rested the 4.7L V-8. Small in displacement, the V-8 puts out 245 horsepower and 315lb-ft of torque. While this wasn't any more than the other engines, the 4.7L Tundra is the ONLY powerplant that really FEELS like a V-8.
With instant throttle response, especially in the initial part of its throttle - pedal's travel, the Tundra's engine will push you back in the seat. The was a characteristic that none of the other V-8s in out test possessed and was most appreciated by our judges. All of them voted that the Tundra's engine was their favorite. "
I thought that the Chev I test drove before I bought my Tundra felt WIMPY! Not only is it slower, but it is hard to hear anything over the rattles, shakes, creaks, and groans that are standard equipment.
The "pushing you back in the seat" sounds good, but remember...I've driven Tundras, and swapped trucks with a friend. No matter what "they" say it "feels" like, my '99 Silverado had no trouble jumping out to a 1/2 truck length lead out from a stop. Every time.
I think the real trouble they had was separating their feelings of (1) small truck versus (3) big trucks!
http://members.aol.com/sturbridg1/utahtrek.html
Other things I have noticed with the Tahoe: Geesh, the steering wheel is huge and sticks out way too far! I feel like it's right at my chest practically. The steering is also weighted too lightly, and it doesn't seem to straighten out as well on its own after cornering - you can't just let the wheel slip in your hand back to neutral. To boot, any of the Chevys with a few miles have that dreaded "floating steering" feeling -like the whole systemis loose. The Tahoe has already developed a lot of squeaks and rattles, and I think the instruments/switchology of the thing is screwy. There's more gadgets in that Tahoe than an airplane. Then there's that AC Delco stereo that irritates me to no end with its dual knobs. The shift lever and steering wheel is always blocking the view of instruments and buttons. And what's with putting the storage bins in the doors right at the same location as the seat sides when the doors are closed? Couldn't they have put the bins forward so you could actually get to them without jamming your hand between the seat and doors? WHY must they put the door locks on the sides of the doors, instead of like Toyota who puts them at the top of the door with a knob that's visible from the outside of the vehicle? And Ford is so dumb and cheap that their lock knobs are too short-they disappear into the door when in the locked (down) position, requiring one to open the door to unlock it. Explain the logic of that to me. Oh, and don't forget the headlight/domelight/fader switches. The logic of that set-up is also beyond me. While I'm at it, I really like the little, wimpy undersize keys GM uses for the door and ignition. You got this tiny key in your hand, trying to twist it in the door lock that seems to grind and resist. They could have put a little more plastic on the key, given the resistance you have to overcome in those doorlocks. There's more of these examples and if I sit and think about it long enough, I will think of more for sure.
Interesting sidenote: the majority of our Chevys have had a new transmission in under 100K miles - the Expeditions have not.
Either way, Tahoe or Expedition, there's no way I would buy one; I'm already sick of them and they're just our work vehicles. I'll take a Toyota anyday with its tighter quality and more logical layout. Honestly, the only feeling I get in those Chevys and Fords is that I'm in a big, dumb truck.
Silverado problems thread has 1574 posts.
Tundra problems thread has 194 posts.
Read the posts. You tell me which has the more serious problems, as well.
Have fun with this one now!
On a more serious note, I have noticed that you are quite a contributer on the Silverado problem board and you know your stuff. You are very well educated on Chevy trucks, their TSBs, problems, etc. That being the case, why can't you acknowledge how problematic their trucks are? You of all people know this.
Are you that loyal to Chevy that you ignore reality?
I think everybody's argument can be summed up easily. The Tundras can't work as hard as the Sierras can, and the Sierras aren't as reliable as the Tundras.
Sorry, but there's just TOO MUCH evidence out there that your Chevys are too problematic to deal with. Read the Silverado Problems thread. Read the Lemon Truck thread. Read Edmunds, JD Powers, and Consumer Reports' reports on reliability and quality. ALL of them say the truck PERFORMED well when everything was working, but the truck had so many quality/reliability/build issues they were hesitant to recommend them.
Sure, Tundras can develop problems too, but overall they've proven to be light-years ahead than Chevy in quality and durability.
Come on, snap out of it. Yesterday at work I read through dozens of your posts at the Silverado Problems thread. You know too well how problematic your Chevys are. Heck, you even admit yours was in the shop for 4 months while you were making payments on it!
Here you go again, speaking w/o data or evidence.
MY GF has a subscription to CR and yet she bought a Ford Explorer. Guess how many recalls we have had on that thing? SEVEN recalls since 1998. I bought my Nissan SE-R at the same time and I have yet to have one recall on it.
So from this anecdotal evidence, we can tell that those who read CR still buy Big three products.
It is correct that the Tundra sagged under heavy load and the F150 fared better. It is also correct that Truck Trend suggested helper springs if you do heavy loading with the Tundra.
But most of you Ford guys have collective amnesia about the other stuff. Once again the Tundra smacked the F150 in all performance measures. And we are talking about the F150 5.4L Triton.
------------ Tundra ------ F150
0-60 --------- 8.0s -------- 9.1s
1/4 ---------- 16.2s ------- 16.8s
w/1000lbs
0-60 --------- 8.27s ------- 10.7s
1/4 ---------- 16.7s ------- 17.7s
60-0 --------- 125 ft ------ 140 ft
loaded
60-0 --------- 139 ft ------ 140ft
Slalom ------- 56.8 mph ---- 54.8mph
Towing------- 7100 lbs ---- 7100 lbs
The thing that amazed me is that the Toyota is still faster even with 1000 lbs in the bed of the truck. The Tundra engine is rated 245 hp and 315 lb ft of torque, 15 hp and 35 lb ft less than the Triton V8 and the truck still managed to spank the F150. So much for the "prowess" of the F150.
YET these same sources said the Chevy would have earned much higher rankings had they not discovered so many obvious poor build quality issues. Yeah, that should really be ignored.
THEN the Chevy boys toot their Chevy 2500 was Motor Trend's truck of the year, a publication that doesn't take into account a vehicles reliability record.
Wow, that's consistent.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/23/automobiles/23CARS.html
If you can't keep it civil, the topic will be shut down. If you continue to shoot at each other, you'll have to find another place to play. That's not a threat, just the way it is.
It's not a lot of fun to login and see the same people hurling the same insults at each other over and over again.
Time to let it go.
PF Flyer
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Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
I'm trying to find details on Item # SB6082124 which is bulletin # TC00599 for my 1998 Tacoma's squeaky clutch. I took my truck to San Antonio a while back to get the squeaky clutch fixed and they told me there was no fix, but now I see there is a TSB on this problem. It would be nice to know if the dealership in San Antonio is just giving me the run-around.
If you can't (or won't) help, I understand - afterall, we've been antagonizing eachother for how long?
But thanks in advance if you do find something.
it's important to understand that Toyota has made a truck for 2001 customers, which are primarily personal-use folks who have an occasional need for hauling. This is evident based on the claims of superior ride quality, handling, and street performance. That's the half-ton market today, so that's what the Tundra addresses. Conversely, Ford, Chevy/GMC, and Dodge go back to the days when "trucks wuz trucks" - even a radio was an option as recently as 20 years ago - and they understand that farmers, construction workers, public works departments, and trailer-towers are interested in capability first. These are the people who bought trucks in the 70s, and they don't want "less" of a truck today. Remember the Jeep J-series pickups? Nearly indestructible. Wouldn't sell today at any price.
Look at what you could get 20-25 years ago in a half-ton from the Big 3. Full time 4WD. Solid front axles. 400-cube V8s. Automatics that could handle the torque. Real solid-steel bumpers that could take a hit. Now we have leather seats, 12-speaker stereos, automatic climate control, pushbutton 4WD with no neutral position, torsion bars instead of heavy duty springs, engines with 4000-rpm torque peaks, and (ewww) remote keyless entry. Add in all the plastic to "save weight", and what do you have? Full-size cars with beds.
As far as the problems with Tundras/T100s vs the Big 3, there's a reason there are fewer complaints: There are fewer Toyotas! Between the Ford F-series, the Silverado/Sierra, and the Ram, the Big 3 sell over 2 million pickups a year - about 75% of which are half-tons. Toyota sells about 150K Tundras in the same time frame - not even 10%. I have been in market research for almost 15 years (my day job), and I can tell you firsthand that companies weight their response data. If Ford gets 1 complaint out of 900K F-series owners, it has much less impact then 1 complaint from 150K Tundra owners to Toyota. Manufacturers look at problems on a percentage basis, not raw numbers. And in that regard, you will find that they are all about the same.
---------------------
On compact pickups,
These have become the new econmy car for many people. You will find college kids, single women in their 20s, and pizza shop owners buying them because they're dirt cheap. If you're some 19-year old at the University of Wherever, on a tight budget, are you going to buy a $13K Ford Focus stripper sedan, or a $12K Ford Ranger? When you don't have money to burn, $1000 is $1000. Toyota and Datsun/Nissan cornered this market a long time ago. The Big 3 could only respond initially with more Japanese trucks - the Ford Courier was the old Mazda, the Chevy LUV was an Isuzu, and the Dodge Ram 50 was a Mitsubishi. Thus the current crop of Tacomas are better suited to the market than the Rangers/S-series/Dakotas because they have the experience in small trucks that the domestics have in full-size. And I tend to leave out the Dakota in comparisons like this because that's not a compact.
----------------------
So the big nasty question is...
Are Toyotas better or not? Depends. They are definitely better marketed to the target audience. This gives them better presence in the marketplace than they would have if they went on capability alone. The domestics are larger, stronger, and can work for a living with less effort. All of them have drawbacks and flaws.
Bottom line: you buy what meets your needs and desires. I have a Ram 3500 extended cab dually 4x4 because that's what I wanted. And it will be replaced by another Ram 3500 in a couple of years. I'm not interested in a Tundra or any other half-ton. I don't fit in compacts. But not everybody needs a dually. A Tacoma owner probably feels his truck meets his needs perfectly. A friend of mine who is a single mom finds her F150 SuperCab a perfect ride for herself and her three kids. Don't worry about the hype, the magazine tests, or the brand-zealous owners who scream "my xxx is better". Try them all out, and get what you like the best.
kcram
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Its gets to the point where you guys have only one thing to say, oh the edmunds Sierra was crappy, CR says its crappy. OH yeah thats what I would base my buying decisions on. Thats all you guys do have to say, its already proven the the Silverado offers more room, more power, more options, more towing capacity, more payload capacity, just a comfortable a ride. So since you lost all those arguments you have to make up stupid crap like dumb names, shakerado, oh yeah that really proves a point being stupid. And making up stories about how all these people on teh silverado problems board have excessive oil consumption and all this other bs, maybe you ever read it most of the post are small problems like clunk in driveshaft that have been solved in TSB or the cold engine knock that doesn't effect performance at all. Maybe you guys should concentrate on problems on the tundra like hard starting instead of turning a blind eye to tundra problems. but of course why would you do that the only thing you try to claim the silverado is worse as is quality, but all your evidence is tied to non scientific surveys by magazines. Maybe you should look at % of trucks still on the road, where the GM truck beat toyota, longest lasting trucks on the road commercial registrations, that means companies that actually use their trucks keep the silverados longer and they last longer. Thats a hard fact that cannot be changed by a persons personal opinion of the truck.
the tundra isnt' a bad truck but it certainly isn't any better than a silverado, and you seem to have a hard time with that.
I know that you are a forum moderator, but I have to tell you that you are wrong on this one. I went to JD Power and found out how they conduct the initial quality study. They look at problems per 100 vehicles, so the numbers are out of 100%. For exmaple, If the Tundra gets 1 problem per 100 trucks and the Silverado gets 13 problems per 100 trucks, then this is the same out of a 100%. The total numbers of trucks produced do not matter. They are looking for problems/100 vehicles sold. I even quote the section for you:
"The Initial Quality Study (IQS) contains comprehensive and analytically rich information to help auto manufacturers position their companys image and products. Consumers are surveyed regarding problems they experienced after 90 days of vehicle ownership. All problems are weighted equally and overall performance is summarized with;problems per 100 vehicles; designations. Performance is compared across models and platforms, and by manufacturer and assembly plants."
"While Asian automakers continue to set the standard, the 2001 study shows Europeans making the greatest strides in vehicle quality improvements, closing the gap on the Asian automakers to just one problem per 100 (PP100) vehicles. In 2000, the quality gap was 16 PP100. Vehicle quality by domestic automakers trails by a larger margin of 13 PP100 behind Asian manufacturers."
As you can see the domestic makers have 13 problems per 100 vehciles while the Asian ones have 1 per 100 vehciles. As you can see all problems are weighed equally and summarized as problems per 100 vehicles.
I have heard the point that you made many times before and it is a spurious arguement. When it comes to quality and reliability the Tundra is better than anything esle the big 3 have to offer. These are facts based on surveys that have been done for years.
being in the business of fabricating and installing Corian countertops for custom homes and commercial applications, we find the use of a soft ride (that of a 1/2 ton preffered) to be best for our product (Corian is known to snap if subjected to hard jolts). the first truck we used for our work was a Toyota tacoma, why? because at the time, it was the best choice for the money, and if things worked out and we decided to trade up, the Tacoma is well known for holding it's resale value. with the use of 2x4 frame to sit on top of the bed rails, we were able to use the truck as a 5x9.5' flatbed, with tools underneath. you could also say that we had at times carried loads that were illegal in length beyond the tailights, but one has to do what you have got to do, and in a years use, we were never pulled over. all i can say is that we literally worked the bejeezus out of that little Tacoma, and not once did it cough sputter or even grunt. when the time came to move up to a bigger truck, the first consideration was the Tundra. we went to the dealer with total enthusiasm, but the first thing we did was to measure the bed length. since we already had the ext cab Tacoma, we wanted to stay with the ext cab Tundra. going from the Tacoma to the Tundra, gave us the impression that the Tundra was a lot bigger truck. the front of the cab was, but the back, even though bigger, wasn't exactly awe inspiring. the bed was the big dissapointment, as it measured out a WHOPPING 2" in length longer. woohoo, all this for about $10K dollars more. no problem, we'll just order the longbed version right? this is were i learned more than i thought i would about why people in the trades just pass on the Tundra.
1. you can't order the Tundra ext cab in LB version.
2. gas mileage isn't awe inspiring, as the V-8 is known to be a gas eater.
3. the wheelbase of the Tundra is rediculousy short (rear wheels are practically behind the cab) and anyone who needs to tow will tell you the problems a short wheelbase are going to have when doing any real serious towing.
4. for the same price, one can have any of the big three built as they need it, with a gaggle of options.
my choice was chevy, and to this day we have a '00 ext cab with longbed, and a '01 ext cab with shortbed.
biggest problem to date with the '00 with 45K on the clock, was an intermediate shaft replacement.
the '01 has 12K on the clock and not even a squeak.
both trucks use 0 oil between changes, and the '00 with the longbed i can haul any size top i want without fear of breakage or being pulled over for hauling over length materials.
this topic to me is almost like the Tundra vs. big 3, but the original poster is asking a more specific question, which i hope my experience helps. both Toyota aand chevy are great products, but Toyota offers you their version of a truck as they build it, but chevy (or ford) let you roll your own. to me, it's about customer satisfaction, which is where Toyota has dropped the ball. this should also explain why some Tundra owners are so defensive.
Wheelbase SBed LBed
-----------------------
Chevy 144" 162"
tundra 125" N/A
Don't worry about my being a host - we're allowed to have friendly debates
Regarding your comments of JD Power surveys and problems per 100 vehicles, that is the computation for JD Power rankings. It has nothing to do with actual problems of vehicles, nor does my post mention JDP (and my firm has done work for them in the past, so I am familiar with their methodology). Also note that your numbers of 1 per 100 for Asian manufacturers cover their entire model line, not JUST their pickups. A flawless Camry balances a Tacoma that's been in the shop a few times.
An example of how Joe Average misunderstands numbers like these. Remember a few years back, the lawsuit against GM for the late 70s-early 80s midsize sedans that allegedly had faulty fuel tanks that would explode when the car was rear-ended. The case study was a Chevy Malibu of that era that got slammed by a drunk in a pickup at about 70 mph. The plaintiff attorneys picked up on a GM memo which said that a passenger death cost GM approximately $2.65 in liability costs per produced vehicle. The attorneys twisted that very nicely into "GM thinks a life is only worth $2.65", and the jury made up of Joe and Jane Average fell for it. They came back with a multi-million dollar judgement against GM. Got thrown out in appeals court, because GM proved the memo was misinterpreted.
Manufacturers get their problems reported 2 ways: warranty claims and consumer contact. Take quadrunner's example of a radio button. Won't show up on a JDP survey, but because it is warranty work, the manufacturer will know about it immediately. These are the real numbers, and they last a lot longer than 90 days. They even extend past the warranty period. If a Chevy transmission is known to die under certain applications at 50,000 miles, that's a problem JD Power will never alert you to. But everybody who has had the failure will be letting their dealers know about it - this leads to manufacturer contact, and often out-of-warranty free repairs.
I have had exactly one defect on my 1996 Dodge Ram. The driver's side windshield washer had a tendency to spray more of the roof than the glass. Replaced under warranty. At the 1 year mark. That's it. Had I done a JDPIQ survey, I would have said zero, because nothing happened in the first 90 days. But over time, things go wrong. Some minor like mine. Some major like others have reported. But unless they received a true piece of junk from the showroom, most hardcore truck owners are worried about where that truck will be in a few years - if it's still in their driveway earning its keep, it was a good buy.
kcram
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