If they are made by Borg Warner chances are they are quite durable. We have electromagnetic clutches in the T-case of the TOD equipped Troopers and they are quite strong/reliable. Some '98 owners who off-road them regularly in TOD mode and use TOD on a regular basis have well over 100K miles w/o failure or repair of the T-case. Of course the transaxle is a different story in the MDX/Pilot/Oddessey and I'd be leary of the beefyness due to their very strict rules for towing capacities and coolers that need to be added, that can't be a good sign of longevity/stoutness of the components, also I don't like the 8K diffy fluid changes which is also not a good sign of the stoutness. But only time will tell.
Is not really "8K", which suggests every 8K miles.
Under the "normal conditions" maintenance schedule, it is:
7,500 miles or 6 months 30,000 miles or 24 months 60,000 miles or 48 months 90,000 miles or 72 months 120,000 miles or 96 months
Under the "severe conditions" maintenance schedule, it is:
7,500 miles or 6 months 15,000 miles or 12 months 30,000 miles or 24 months 45,000 miles or 36 months 60,000 miles or 48 months 75,000 miles or 60 months 90,000 miles or 72 months 105,000 miles or 84 months 120,000 miles or 96 months
Not great considering that it can be fairly frequent if one is under "severe" conditions, and it is a maintenance cost owners have to pay. Some dealers are overcharging for it as part of scheduled maintenance. However, it's definitely not every 8k miles.
Some folks have changed the VTM-4 fluid on their own. The trick here is that with every fluid change you get a new pump, so that's a part that has to be put in.
I'm assuming that the Pilot's VTM-4 maintenance schedule will be the same as the MDX's. It's the same system so I think the Pilot will be the same. If anyone shopping for a Pilot wants to be sure, ask to see the owner's manual and look in the maintenance section. Then ask the dealer's service department how much they charge for the fluid change.
Well most people who drive in urban and suburban areas where these vehicles will generally reside will be directed to follow the severe maintenance schedule. Didn't realize a part needed to be replaced each time too. wow.
Yep, but even the severe schedule isn't every 8k miles for VTM-4 maintenance.
I've noticed that a lot of Acura dealerships try to pressure the owner into the severe maintenance schedule even if it isn't necessary. Obviously an attempt to increase their service department revenue.
(An owner might elect to do this anyway because of personal preference.)
But the severe maintenance schedule is not always necessary, even if you live in a suburban or, less likely, urban area. The manual clearly states the conditions under which the severe schedule should be applied, and that "most" of one's driving needs to be under the conditions. The key is the "most" part. Everyone will at least occasionally drive under the specified conditions, but not necessarily "most."
It's up to the original owner to consider. Some will take the dealer's recommendation, some will evaluate what the manual says on their own, some will decide that extra maintenance won't hurt in light of insufficient data on long-term durability, etc.
College Hills Honda (www.collegehillshonda.com) has posted specifications comparisons of the Pilot to the Acura MDX, Toyota Highlander, and Chevy TrailBlazer. Go to their site and click 2003 Honda Pilot, then Specifications, and finally Pilot Comparison.
Mkaye - My comments were based on the VTM4 system, so the rules for the average differential (or the designs of other companies) do not apply. If you have your own stadards/criteria for what an AWD system should do, then that's great. I was talking about the Pilot.
What I took from the Healy article was that the VTM4 system keeps the vehicle moving forward. The systems which incorporate braking to shuffle power to the wheels that have traction were not up to snuff for those particular test conditions. We have no idea how severe they may have been. Another test could show different results.
FWIW, MT came to the same conclusion when they had their chance to test it.
It looks like the maintenance schedule is a fluid change after break-in, then every 15-30K depending on conditions.
This is for anyone that has sat in the Pilot or has "inside" info. Since the EX comes with 8-Way Power Driver's Seat Adjustment is there a memory setting like on the touring MDX it has: The Touring Package also features 8-way adjustment .... even includes a memory system that recalls two separate settings for the driver's seat and door mirrors. You can activate either setting from the remote key fob. Also if anyone has pictures of a white Pilot can they post them. Thanks to "varmint" for all the "inside" info.
I don't see it in the Pilot specs. Unless I'm mistaken, then it's probably not in it.
It wouldn't be too surprising. As you pointed out, the base MDX doesn't have memory seating either.
Pilot AWD Performance:
Agreed with varmint. Based on reviews from journalists and actual (real-world) MDX owners, the Pilot AWD should be fine for most foul-weather situations.
Thanks to all who have commented regarding the VTM-4 system... although I think I have created a monster here with this topic. For all you techies out there, here is some more to think about...
After taking a look at the concepts, my main concern with the Pilot will be cornering on semi-snow covered roads, especially a downhill grade. This is the same situation that I experienced trouble with a previous SUV that had an "auto 4WD" capability. This "auto 4WD" was great in that it allowed you to have 4WD type benefits on partially snow covered roads that contain too much dry pavement for extended use in 4WD-Hi. However, the system required some changes to my driving habits and created rather scary driving situations the first season. AWD with power to all wheels or traditional 4WD both tend to decelerate rapidly with the foot off the gas, but maintain good cornering traction. These "auto" systems tend to coast at equal or increased speed with the foot off the gas, causing corning skids (fishtailing).
As I stated in a previous post... I am a great fan of AWD vs. traditional 4WD in snow and dirt driving conditions. However, my current AWD experience is with a vehicle that always has power to both the front and rear. As much as I want to get out of tradition American SUV's (poor reliability, resale, and mileage), I am concerned about Pilot's mountain snow and mud driving capabilities. I guess I will just have to develop the driving technique, necessary to get the most out of the system, or keep it under 18mph?
Understand my statements regarding AWD/4WD are purely based on 12 years of SUV driving experiences across the multiple systems, not engineering prowess. I appreciate your thoughts since it will be hard to test drive in the snow when my vehicle arrives in early June:)
Joepugs - Nope. The EX I sat in did not have memory seats. What kinda miffed me is that the passenger seat is not power at all.
Ssminton - I could be wrong, but the engine braking you described is more likely the result of transmission gearing, rather than the "torque distribution mechanism". (How's that for a non-specific-AWD/4WD-description)
In general, engine braking with four wheels is better than two, but I don't think it would have anything to do with vehicle speeds. That is, unless you were actually sliding.
I think that braking/downhill traction is a good point on permanent AWD/4wd vs. those with 'reactive' systems. Since the VTM is a Borg-Warner system, other vehicles that use BG systems (which shall remain nameless [some even pre-load the both axles, so the vehicle is always in 4wd]) use via acceleration, throttle position, ABS, and driveshaft sensors, an algorithm that pre-emptively puts the vehicle in AWD. Honda certainly states this to be the case for acceleration (ie, the vehicle goes into 4wd on acceleration, anticipating slip - even romping the gas to pass a vehicle higher speeds [Honda states this in their literature]). It would have to be the same for deceleration; the system 'should' go into 4wd anticipating potential slip.
One benefit to permanent AWD/4wd is NOT having to use the brakes to slow the vehicle but use transmission and gearing so as to not overcome tire/surface traction. Permanent AWD/4wd can certainly slow the vehicle better without braking, just as it would to get the vehicle moving from stand-still. One would certainly hope this to be the case for the VTM4.
I do think this a pertinent discussion on the capabilities of the Pilot/MDX. As I have not found the detailed information on the VTM activation on the net as one might find with 'other' AWD systems, it does bear asking.
mkaye, glad to see you feel I have a valid point on the automatic AWD deceleration issue. All right then... all you engineering geniuses with net time on your hands, let's see if we can figure this out? I realize most people on this board probably never intend to use the Pilot or other "hybrids" in a traditional "SUV" environment. And after my previous discussions, you probably think I live in the mountains and should just quiet myself and buy another standard SUV. However, I actually live in a California beach city, drive 35K+ miles per year (got to get to the mountains) and pay nearly $2/gallon for gas. Now you see my dilemma and excitement with the Pilot.
On another note... anyone notice that most of the recent discussions on the Highlander board relate to the Pilot... hmmm
Anybody with an MDX can tell us how much that dreaded fluid/pump change cost on the MDX? I drive easily 25-30K miles a year (none on dirt road, mind you :-), so I'm interested in learning about that extra cost.
Dang, in the end, nothing beats a good Torsen and its numerous pinions...
The MDX transmission/AWD system does not seem to significantly impact vehicle speeds going downhill (actually not at all). I have even tried downshifting, with little effect in mine. My Trooper with fulltime 4wd/awd (TOD) engaged actually applies slight engine braking when off the gas and going downhill. Maybe this is pro-active so that if you need it, all 4 wheels are receiving power from the transmission.
"Now trying to be realistic...in my opinion the cost of premium is nil if you getting slightly less performance. ... I think the 'better' motor (I use better loosely) if cost justified in regards comparing regular to premium."
I've given it some thought, and now I wonder if one might actually get better performance with a Pilot running on premium than an MDX running on premium?
Both engines are rated at similar horsepower and peak torque, though I don't know how the torque curve compares between the two.
However, the MDX's power ratings are based on premium while the Pilot's are based on regular.
Then Honda says that running the Pilot on premium will provide more torque.
Meanwhile, MDX owners have observed that downgrading from premium definitely cuts power.
If a Pilot running on premium is more powerful than an MDX on premium, then the 1mpg less of highway mileage for the Pilot is worth it (assuming that the Pilot's mileage doesn't improve with premium).
We've already discussed how the 1mpg difference + regular fuel requirement of the Pilot translates into lower real-world gas costs, while not reducing power since the Pilot with regular is rated similarly to the MDX (with the possible exception of low-rpm torque delivery).
The key here is that we don't know what the torque curves are like, at least in all rpm ranges, including a Pilot on premium.
As wmquan stated your driving conditions won't always be severe, or always "normal" for that matter. Most likely you will fall somewhere in between. So your second fluid change might be at 20k or 25k miles. Use common sense and when in doubt be conservative and lean towards the severe schedule.
I've posted before that the MDX at 4400lbs & 8.1 sec (C&D, and MotorWeek) to 60 computes to about 270hp at the rear wheels. So the disclosed 240hp is likely with regular gas. Honda is notoriously conservative; and in this case with their HP numbers for insurance purposes it seems. I wouldn't be surprised if the Pilot motor is actually the same as the MDX with Honda underestimating its numbers and octane requirements to suit its marketing purposes (I have yet to see compression ratio numbers for Pilot motor). Only way to know is to dyno both motors in both octanes, but initial acceleration tests will provide an indication.
I got a "teaser" brochure at the NY Auto Show a few weeks ago. It's not very detailed. I know there will a "complete" brochure; in fact, someone posted that their dealer had them already. After reading that post, I went to my dealer, and he didn't have any yet.
I just saw it in the flesh and disapponted in behind 3 rd row cargo, same as MDX . It would have been a true minivan alternative if an additional 8-10 inches of cargo depth was added. Body style is superior to MDX ( with some imagination looks like an updated old Mazda minivan w/the 4 non-sliding doors). I may still buy,and do luggage on the roof rack when needed .(dogs take 3rd row seat) Volvo x90 looked more on target but may not wait that long and need car on the road ,not in the shop.
BTW, if you think the Pilot engine = the MDX engine, is the 2002 Odyssey engine also the same, perhaps just tuned a bit differently, or its numbers stated a bit differently?
It's sometimes hard to quote VTM-4 maintenance because it's often done as part of other maintenance. The most common quote I've seen is for the 7,500 mile maintenance. That includes an oil change, and the VTM-4 fluid change, and the usual quick diagnostic and other fluid top-off. I've seen that quoted at $125, $139, $65, $208, $130, $60, $113, $100, $178, $71, etc. In other words, all over the map, literally and figuratively. I saw one Kansas City resident get quoted $180 and $240 from two different dealerships! Some prices include a tire rotation.
Please keep in mind that Acura dealerships usually charge more for service than Honda dealerships, so hopefully it won't be that much for Pilot owners.
A lot of MDX owners change it themselves. They buy the fluid from their Acura dealership for $20 or less. There's a pump for each service for about $10 but some people buy their own from Pep Boys or someplace else for $4-$6.
The pump does NOT get installed, it's simply for pumping the fluid up and into the opening which is secured by a bolt. I'd been a bit confused about its function and checked. It's needed because you simply can't pour it in because of the angle.
You also have to replace the drain washer and fill washer for about $0.35. The two plugs are torqued to 35lbs so you'll need a torque wrench with metric hex drivers.
My friend was charged $80 for the complete VTM fluid service (on an MDX, of course). The dealer recommended doing it every 7,500 miles to 30K then every 30K thereafter. Plus, every 30K is the transmission service at $150.
Glad you explained the pump, I was wondering too. I didn't remember hearing that a "pump" was installed at the service for the MDX. Just a manual pump to get the fluid from the bottle to the VTM system, ahha.
Possibly octane will make a difference in power. I don't know. Typically engines run best on whatever octane they are tuned for. The whole compression, fuel ignition, etc. With variable valve timing, maybe it is just a computer chip upgrade could make the two motors the same? From what I understand (at least read on the internet) the odyssey motor is different than the MDX, while based on the same platform? I am sure there will be ways to tweak power, is that something you want to do on a new car?
I doubt you'll find the Volvo XC90 any more spacious then the Pilot. The exterior dimensions on the XC90 are less then an inch longer then the Pilot and the XC90 is approximately 3 inches narrower and 3 inches shorter. I expect it will cost significantly more as well. It will probably be a nice vehicle but it's not going to solve your interior space issues.
Sbcooke - The MDX makes use of the same sort of engine tweaking that the CL-S has. If anyone knows more about that block, perhaps they can enlighten us.
Honda has several different "types" of V-TEC. The difference between the Pilot/Ody and the MDX may be related to intake and exhaust. Most Honda V-TEC engines have variable timing and lift for the intake valves (the newer ones also control phase). However, not all of them have variable exhaust valves. This is the main mechanical difference between the base RSX and the RSX-S.
Tweaking is actually pretty common on some vehicles. Though it's not for me.
My main point was that the only "tweaking" one may need to do to make the Pilot slightly more powerful than the MDX (if the engines are actually different) is to just add premium!
guy44:
Agreed. The XC90 is very interesting. But like you said, it won't be cheap (after all, a Volvo XC70 wagon can cost $40k!). Not only that, but given Volvo's recent reliability problems, I wouldn't go near it in the first year.
Still a very interesting vehicle. Terrific safety features, arguably the best of any SUV when it hits the market.
wmquan: Take the "Pilot = MDX" equation with a grain of salt as you'll never be able to say 03 Pilot = 03 MDX motor. 03 MDX is going to a 3.8 L motor. Maybe 03 Pilot = 02 MDX motor, approximately.
As Varmint points out (and by the way awesome "Pilot Mission Impossible" page) Honda can tweak intake, exhaust, and vtec systems to optimize motors for their appropriate market. I suspect that the Pilot motor (02 Ody, O3 Pilot, 02 MDX) are essentially the same motor. It is unlikely the motors are identical where you could drop an MDX motor into a Pilot, but from the info available of hp, fuel mileage, and vehicle weight they are very close.
Time was when Honda would not share any of the Acura five or six bangers nor the vtec heads with the Honda line. Now we see the technology across the Honda product lines....just wait till the NA market intro of the Civic Type R for the full i vtec application in a Honda.
By the way, thanks for your real world comments regarding MDX leather. I was leaning towards that, but I have no issues with the cloth in our 99 Ody EX. Also, keeps me from being tempted by the Nav option; and the rear view camera option. I think you're saving me $4K that could go towards an Element!
At any rate, yes, your MDX motor puts out more than 240hp even with regular. You just have to remind yourself it weighs 4400 lbs.
Thanks so much for the maintenance answer. Doing it myself sounds like a good idea, except that I would not really know what to do with the old fluid. Maybe the dump recycles it.
Either way, thanks for the info, it's very pertinent to my buying decision.
Yes, the fluid left over is considered hazardous material and must be disposed of. Many local communities hold recycling events to get rid of stuff like that.
That's why some MDX owners couldn't buy it from the normal Internet accessory places (e.g. www.hondacuraworld.com). The fluid can't be easily shipped becauze of "hazmat" restrictions.
We seem to have shifted from AWD systems to the engines that power them.
Moonkat - The 3.5 is actually a rather old block. IIRC, it's first appearance was in the Acura RL. It's still there and developing a rather paltry 210 hp the last time I checked. In that application, it was been tuned to maximize refined, smooth, and quiet power (at the expense of max power).
People with first gen CR-V's (2.0) have taken the V-TECH heads of the Integra GSR (1.8) and installed them onto the CR-V block. It might be possible to do something similar with the Pilot/Ody and MDX. Wouldn't be cheap, though. And forget about the warranty.
Didn't the MDX engine come from the 3.2 engine used in the TL, by way of the Odyssey to make the jump to 3.5, augmented then with the 3.2 CL-S technology to improve power? And the TL 6-cylinder was originally in the Honda Accord V6, in smaller form? (I remember the first Accord V6 didn't produce much power, it took another rev to get it up there.)
It's been a long time, so I might be remembering this totally wrong.
Has anyone out there actually ordered a Pilot from a dealer? How big are the current waiting lists? I ordered one a about a month ago and was told I was number 9 on the list. This is a reputable Honda dealer that promotes MSRP only pricing and no dealer add ons. Sales manager was surprised demand was not greater. Is it picking up?
I ordered my Pilot about 2 months at two different dealerships and am 3rd and 4th on their lists respectively. I have no idea how long the lists are now. I went with two dealerships to try and make sure I'd get a fair trade in value. If the demand isn't that great, it's probably based more on the fact that there are so many choices out their for mid sized SUVs. When the Odyssey came out there was certainly other minivans but far less overall competition in that area (relatively speaking). Anyway, my two cents.
I put my deposit down at the end of February and was #2 on the list. I stopped at a dealer last week that said they had 6 pre-ordered as well. Demand here in the Milwaukee-metro area seems to be pretty high.
We have five Honda dealers in the area....four are selling Odyssey's and Pilot's at MSRP, one is $1000 over. Not sure how that one works.
The one I have my deposit at is also throwing in all accessories at cost.
I think customer demand at this point in time is not greater due to minimal advance press articles like "first drive" magazine reports. If the 1999 Odyssey customer demand is any indication the waiting list will be long and dealers charging well over MSRP. One possible difference is that their are so many other SUV's to choose from which may lower ultimate demand. Also remember that Honda will only be making ~60,000 vehicles to start. Sounds like the Odyssey all over again. Its Economics 101.
After the Sales depts get their chance to test drive this car and when the first units hit the ground...you will see demand pick up.
The "ordering" sites like CarPoint, AutoWeb and the like don't have the Pilot listed yet, so we aren't geting the inquiries.
The same thing happened with CRV. Started out slow, the went ballistic. Now, it seems that 1 out of 3 internet inquiries is for CRV. I expect Pilot to be about the same.
Went to a dealer in SF bayarea this weekend, they are not even taking orders. Instead took my name and number on the back of his business card, not even a waiting list. The reason they stated was the price's not out yet. But from this site, many people have already ordered and put down their deposit. Does anyone know if any Honda dealer in the SF bayarea is taking order or have a waiting list? Any dealer in the area has demo unit on their lot that I can take a peek?
I've been bugging Anderson Honda for a while about getting on a list, but they have no list. Apparently, I'm one of a very few who's been asking about the Pilot. Go figure!
They basically are waiting for pricing to be announced, which should be very soon now. If you find a dealer that takes deposits, let us know.
Paisan: that trail looked pretty fun, although I doubt you'd see any Pilot there. Those ruts don't look too forgiving...
I'd love to see a pilot out there though It's biggest problem would have been cladding, muffler system, side steps, and lack of low range. I only used low range on the hardest of the trails. Although it was fun watching the Heeps stumble up what we just walked right up.
Dayton Ohio has a large Honda Plant, I believe for the Civic, anyways, there is a Havasu Blue Pilot in the area with the badging removed. We saw it on the highway as it passed us so we had to speed up to take a look. Impressions: Wife thought it was butt ugly color, I really didn't like it either. It's big, seems a bit bigger than an MDX, but we were going 70mph and in a smaller car. If you are in the area, keep your eyes open. My wife wants the MDX, I'm leaning towards the Pilot in Silver. Either way, we didn't like Havasu Blue. Just my $.02. Check out the posting of the spy pics about a hundred postings back. That is Havasu Blue pictured. Really light sky blue metallic in the sun, maybe it's kinda Silver in the shade, don't know.
Sailing - Ditto. The Havasu Blue didn't do anything for me either. It does look like a silver, though I thought it had a tint of green to the hue. Could've been a reflection of other colors in the area.
Just placed my order for July delivery. Dealer estimates mid-July to mid-August delivery. It was six weeks ago they called for the June order.
Interestingly, they said that Honda limits which models and colors can be ordered. He said this shipment they were allocated three Pilots; two EX-L, and one EX cloth. He also said Silver was a color likely to be built, and that Honda built the color only if they had sufficient orders. I ordered the Silver in cloth. I have no issues with cloth in my three-year-old 99 Ody EX, and have read concerns re: MDX & Ody leather & maintenance requirement (thanks wmquan).
I expect the pricing to be about $27.5K for EX plus the $480 shipping. I believe Pilot prices will be: $26K LX $27.5K EX $29K EX-L $30.5K EX-L RES $31K EX-L NAVI All plus $480 shipping. These prices are not from the dealer, John Page @ Mark Robert Motors, but using the Ody model price increments applied to Pilot $26K base. John is in agreement and I think it will be close.
The pilot I ordered will be my first Honda and I am excited to say the least. I was wondering if you recommend I should get the full nose mask, or Paint sealer, or rust proofing or all three? I am getting a black LX that has a production date of May08 - May11. I wonder when it will show up at dealership in MASS. thanks, mike
Comments
-mike
Under the "normal conditions" maintenance schedule, it is:
7,500 miles or 6 months
30,000 miles or 24 months
60,000 miles or 48 months
90,000 miles or 72 months
120,000 miles or 96 months
Under the "severe conditions" maintenance schedule, it is:
7,500 miles or 6 months
15,000 miles or 12 months
30,000 miles or 24 months
45,000 miles or 36 months
60,000 miles or 48 months
75,000 miles or 60 months
90,000 miles or 72 months
105,000 miles or 84 months
120,000 miles or 96 months
Not great considering that it can be fairly frequent if one is under "severe" conditions, and it is a maintenance cost owners have to pay. Some dealers are overcharging for it as part of scheduled maintenance. However, it's definitely not every 8k miles.
Some folks have changed the VTM-4 fluid on their own. The trick here is that with every fluid change you get a new pump, so that's a part that has to be put in.
I'm assuming that the Pilot's VTM-4 maintenance schedule will be the same as the MDX's. It's the same system so I think the Pilot will be the same. If anyone shopping for a Pilot wants to be sure, ask to see the owner's manual and look in the maintenance section. Then ask the dealer's service department how much they charge for the fluid change.
-mike
I've noticed that a lot of Acura dealerships try to pressure the owner into the severe maintenance schedule even if it isn't necessary. Obviously an attempt to increase their service department revenue.
(An owner might elect to do this anyway because of personal preference.)
But the severe maintenance schedule is not always necessary, even if you live in a suburban or, less likely, urban area. The manual clearly states the conditions under which the severe schedule should be applied, and that "most" of one's driving needs to be under the conditions. The key is the "most" part. Everyone will at least occasionally drive under the specified conditions, but not necessarily "most."
It's up to the original owner to consider. Some will take the dealer's recommendation, some will evaluate what the manual says on their own, some will decide that extra maintenance won't hurt in light of insufficient data on long-term durability, etc.
What I took from the Healy article was that the VTM4 system keeps the vehicle moving forward. The systems which incorporate braking to shuffle power to the wheels that have traction were not up to snuff for those particular test conditions. We have no idea how severe they may have been. Another test could show different results.
FWIW, MT came to the same conclusion when they had their chance to test it.
It looks like the maintenance schedule is a fluid change after break-in, then every 15-30K depending on conditions.
Anyway, thanks to all for the symposium on AWD.
Since the EX comes with 8-Way Power Driver's Seat Adjustment is there a memory setting like on the touring MDX it has:
The Touring Package also features 8-way adjustment .... even includes a memory system that recalls two separate settings for the driver's seat and door mirrors. You can activate either setting from the remote key fob. Also if anyone has pictures of a white Pilot can they post them. Thanks to "varmint" for all the "inside" info.
I don't see it in the Pilot specs. Unless I'm mistaken, then it's probably not in it.
It wouldn't be too surprising. As you pointed out, the base MDX doesn't have memory seating either.
Pilot AWD Performance:
Agreed with varmint. Based on reviews from journalists and actual (real-world) MDX owners, the Pilot AWD should be fine for most foul-weather situations.
With three kids, you can't flip down the bench seat on an Odyssey and seat 5.
After taking a look at the concepts, my main concern with the Pilot will be cornering on semi-snow covered roads, especially a downhill grade. This is the same situation that I experienced trouble with a previous SUV that had an "auto 4WD" capability. This "auto 4WD" was great in that it allowed you to have 4WD type benefits on partially snow covered roads that contain too much dry pavement for extended use in 4WD-Hi. However, the system required some changes to my driving habits and created rather scary driving situations the first season. AWD with power to all wheels or traditional 4WD both tend to decelerate rapidly with the foot off the gas, but maintain good cornering traction. These "auto" systems tend to coast at equal or increased speed with the foot off the gas, causing corning skids (fishtailing).
As I stated in a previous post... I am a great fan of AWD vs. traditional 4WD in snow and dirt driving conditions. However, my current AWD experience is with a vehicle that always has power to both the front and rear. As much as I want to get out of tradition American SUV's (poor reliability, resale, and mileage), I am concerned about Pilot's mountain snow and mud driving capabilities. I guess I will just have to develop the driving technique, necessary to get the most out of the system, or keep it under 18mph?
Understand my statements regarding AWD/4WD are purely based on 12 years of SUV driving experiences across the multiple systems, not engineering prowess. I appreciate your thoughts since it will be hard to test drive in the snow when my vehicle arrives in early June:)
Ssminton - I could be wrong, but the engine braking you described is more likely the result of transmission gearing, rather than the "torque distribution mechanism". (How's that for a non-specific-AWD/4WD-description)
In general, engine braking with four wheels is better than two, but I don't think it would have anything to do with vehicle speeds. That is, unless you were actually sliding.
I think that braking/downhill traction is a good point on permanent AWD/4wd vs. those with 'reactive' systems. Since the VTM is a Borg-Warner system, other vehicles that use BG systems (which shall remain nameless [some even pre-load the both axles, so the vehicle is always in 4wd]) use via acceleration, throttle position, ABS, and driveshaft sensors, an algorithm that pre-emptively puts the vehicle in AWD. Honda certainly states this to be the case for acceleration (ie, the vehicle goes into 4wd on acceleration, anticipating slip - even romping the gas to pass a vehicle higher speeds [Honda states this in their literature]). It would have to be the same for deceleration; the system 'should' go into 4wd anticipating potential slip.
One benefit to permanent AWD/4wd is NOT having to use the brakes to slow the vehicle but use transmission and gearing so as to not overcome tire/surface traction. Permanent AWD/4wd can certainly slow the vehicle better without braking, just as it would to get the vehicle moving from stand-still. One would certainly hope this to be the case for the VTM4.
I do think this a pertinent discussion on the capabilities of the Pilot/MDX. As I have not found the detailed information on the VTM activation on the net as one might find with 'other' AWD systems, it does bear asking.
On another note... anyone notice that most of the recent discussions on the Highlander board relate to the Pilot... hmmm
Dang, in the end, nothing beats a good Torsen and its numerous pinions...
Bob
I've given it some thought, and now I wonder if one might actually get better performance with a Pilot running on premium than an MDX running on premium?
Both engines are rated at similar horsepower and peak torque, though I don't know how the torque curve compares between the two.
However, the MDX's power ratings are based on premium while the Pilot's are based on regular.
Then Honda says that running the Pilot on premium will provide more torque.
Meanwhile, MDX owners have observed that downgrading from premium definitely cuts power.
If a Pilot running on premium is more powerful than an MDX on premium, then the 1mpg less of highway mileage for the Pilot is worth it (assuming that the Pilot's mileage doesn't improve with premium).
We've already discussed how the 1mpg difference + regular fuel requirement of the Pilot translates into lower real-world gas costs, while not reducing power since the Pilot with regular is rated similarly to the MDX (with the possible exception of low-rpm torque delivery).
The key here is that we don't know what the torque curves are like, at least in all rpm ranges, including a Pilot on premium.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Pilot motor is actually the same as the MDX with Honda underestimating its numbers and octane requirements to suit its marketing purposes (I have yet to see compression ratio numbers for Pilot motor).
Only way to know is to dyno both motors in both octanes, but initial acceleration tests will provide an indication.
Bob
BTW, if you think the Pilot engine = the MDX engine, is the 2002 Odyssey engine also the same, perhaps just tuned a bit differently, or its numbers stated a bit differently?
Please keep in mind that Acura dealerships usually charge more for service than Honda dealerships, so hopefully it won't be that much for Pilot owners.
A lot of MDX owners change it themselves. They buy the fluid from their Acura dealership for $20 or less. There's a pump for each service for about $10 but some people buy their own from Pep Boys or someplace else for $4-$6.
The pump does NOT get installed, it's simply for pumping the fluid up and into the opening which is secured by a bolt. I'd been a bit confused about its function and checked. It's needed because you simply can't pour it in because of the angle.
You also have to replace the drain washer and fill washer for about $0.35. The two plugs are torqued to 35lbs so you'll need a torque wrench with metric hex drivers.
The fluid is NOT transmission fluid.
Glad you explained the pump, I was wondering too. I didn't remember hearing that a "pump" was installed at the service for the MDX. Just a manual pump to get the fluid from the bottle to the VTM system, ahha.
I doubt you'll find the Volvo XC90 any more spacious then the Pilot. The exterior dimensions on the XC90 are less then an inch longer then the Pilot and the XC90 is approximately 3 inches narrower and 3 inches shorter. I expect it will cost significantly more as well. It will probably be a nice vehicle but it's not going to solve your interior space issues.
Honda has several different "types" of V-TEC. The difference between the Pilot/Ody and the MDX may be related to intake and exhaust. Most Honda V-TEC engines have variable timing and lift for the intake valves (the newer ones also control phase). However, not all of them have variable exhaust valves. This is the main mechanical difference between the base RSX and the RSX-S.
Tweaking is actually pretty common on some vehicles. Though it's not for me.
My main point was that the only "tweaking" one may need to do to make the Pilot slightly more powerful than the MDX (if the engines are actually different) is to just add premium!
guy44:
Agreed. The XC90 is very interesting. But like you said, it won't be cheap (after all, a Volvo XC70 wagon can cost $40k!). Not only that, but given Volvo's recent reliability problems, I wouldn't go near it in the first year.
Still a very interesting vehicle. Terrific safety features, arguably the best of any SUV when it hits the market.
Take the "Pilot = MDX" equation with a grain of salt as you'll never be able to say 03 Pilot = 03 MDX motor. 03 MDX is going to a 3.8 L motor. Maybe 03 Pilot = 02 MDX motor, approximately.
As Varmint points out (and by the way awesome "Pilot Mission Impossible" page) Honda can tweak intake, exhaust, and vtec systems to optimize motors for their appropriate market. I suspect that the Pilot motor (02 Ody, O3 Pilot, 02 MDX) are essentially the same motor. It is unlikely the motors are identical where you could drop an MDX motor into a Pilot, but from the info available of hp, fuel mileage, and vehicle weight they are very close.
Time was when Honda would not share any of the Acura five or six bangers nor the vtec heads with the Honda line. Now we see the technology across the Honda product lines....just wait till the NA market intro of the Civic Type R for the full i vtec application in a Honda.
By the way, thanks for your real world comments regarding MDX leather. I was leaning towards that, but I have no issues with the cloth in our 99 Ody EX. Also, keeps me from being tempted by the Nav option; and the rear view camera option. I think you're saving me $4K that could go towards an Element!
At any rate, yes, your MDX motor puts out more than 240hp even with regular. You just have to remind yourself it weighs 4400 lbs.
Either way, thanks for the info, it's very pertinent to my buying decision.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
That's why some MDX owners couldn't buy it from the normal Internet accessory places (e.g. www.hondacuraworld.com). The fluid can't be easily shipped becauze of "hazmat" restrictions.
Moonkat - The 3.5 is actually a rather old block. IIRC, it's first appearance was in the Acura RL. It's still there and developing a rather paltry 210 hp the last time I checked. In that application, it was been tuned to maximize refined, smooth, and quiet power (at the expense of max power).
People with first gen CR-V's (2.0) have taken the V-TECH heads of the Integra GSR (1.8) and installed them onto the CR-V block. It might be possible to do something similar with the Pilot/Ody and MDX. Wouldn't be cheap, though. And forget about the warranty.
It's been a long time, so I might be remembering this totally wrong.
We have five Honda dealers in the area....four are selling Odyssey's and Pilot's at MSRP, one is $1000 over. Not sure how that one works.
The one I have my deposit at is also throwing in all accessories at cost.
Happy Shopping!
The "ordering" sites like CarPoint, AutoWeb and the like don't have the Pilot listed yet, so we aren't geting the inquiries.
The same thing happened with CRV. Started out slow, the went ballistic. Now, it seems that 1 out of 3 internet inquiries is for CRV. I expect Pilot to be about the same.
Jerry
Seems like the maintenance is just higher than other vehicles on the MDX/Pilot for the tranny and diffys.
Anyway was out doing some 4-wheeling, I'd love to see the pilot out here with us. http://isuzu-suvs.com/events/unf-04-26-02/
-mike
Does anyone know if any Honda dealer in the SF bayarea is taking order or have a waiting list?
Any dealer in the area has demo unit on their lot that I can take a peek?
They basically are waiting for pricing to be announced, which should be very soon now. If you find a dealer that takes deposits, let us know.
Paisan: that trail looked pretty fun, although I doubt you'd see any Pilot there. Those ruts don't look too forgiving...
-mike
Interestingly, they said that Honda limits which models and colors can be ordered. He said this shipment they were allocated three Pilots; two EX-L, and one EX cloth. He also said Silver was a color likely to be built, and that Honda built the color only if they had sufficient orders. I ordered the Silver in cloth. I have no issues with cloth in my three-year-old 99 Ody EX, and have read concerns re: MDX & Ody leather & maintenance requirement (thanks wmquan).
I expect the pricing to be about $27.5K for EX plus the $480 shipping. I believe Pilot prices will be:
$26K LX
$27.5K EX
$29K EX-L
$30.5K EX-L RES
$31K EX-L NAVI
All plus $480 shipping.
These prices are not from the dealer, John Page @ Mark Robert Motors, but using the Ody model price increments applied to Pilot $26K base. John is in agreement and I think it will be close.
We shall see. Good hunting all.
I am getting a black LX that has a production date of May08 - May11. I wonder when it will show up at dealership in MASS.
thanks,
mike