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Comments
As to pricing, maybe the gouging is a CA thing. The dealer who would take a deposit hinted at a 2-3k markup. I said I wouldn't pay it, but we left actual discussion of the price for later. Another one called me last week to see if I were still interested as the Pilots were coming. He had no idea what his own lot would charge but said he heard another in the area would be asking 6k over sticker (guess this was supposed to make himself look good).
We are getting anxious. I am only getting a new vehicle because we needed something to accomodate 3 carseats & the Pilot seems to offer all we need for the next 6-8 yrs. We knew the timing would be close, with a due date of 6/18, and then the twins arrived Saturday (6 wks early). They probably will come home this weekend & we will do some temporary doubling up (2 cars) to accomodate everyone. But if everyone insists on marking up the Pilots, I'll go get a cheap used Taurus wagon & drive it for a year until prices go down or another of the promising new choices is out.
Jessd - LOL Maybe now I can get press access! Actually, I've been meaning to make friendly with the local Honda zone rep. Maybe I can get similar access to the Element before it goes public. <<wishful thinking>>
-mike
The MDX's (and presumably the Pilot's and the Odyssey's) acceleration numbers from 50-70, 60-80 are all excellent, and much better than the ML320's (our second choice when we bought the MDX). Granted that SUV traditionalists focus mostly on low-end power, but having power on the highway is great.
About 6 months ago, I checked with a "popular" local Acura dealer for a MDX, they quoted $2K over MSRP and 1-3 month of waiting depending on color.
So selling over MSRP is very common in CA, especially in SF bay area. If you can out bid 10K-50K over listing price or $600K -$1Mill for a 40 year old 1200 SqFt house in this bayarea, couple of thousands extra for a car is nothing. Dealers know that.
Shoot me an e-mail if you want the info.
Real Estate is more, the cost of doing business is higher, salaries are higher(assuming your .com didnt go under)
welcome to Califonia (and I'll probably never leave)
My dealer said he was receiving his first allocation on 6/3/02. #1 is a demo, #2 will be driven by the owner with the rest being allocated to customer orders.
I'm still not sure. I just drove an MDX and it's really slick. If the Pilot EX-L comes in at $31-32k, I think I'll wait for the MDX.
Even one of the counter-points in the C&D review said it - if you're not strapped for cash, spend a few grand more and get the MDX....you'll be glad you did (I'm paraphrasing, but that is basically what he said).
I think joeaverage has more issues than pot holes and concrete.....
Went to one of the online car buying services, entered in a bay area zip code for an MDX, sure enough $2K over list. Entered in some surrounding states and saw prices quoted at list, but Oregon and Washington were also $2K or-more over list!
Amazing! I can just see the 'fat-cat' West Coast dealers, sitting in their overstuffed chairs, puffing on cigars saying, "We're in the money, we're in the money"!
RE: Overpaying for stuff. Can anyone say Enron and California utility companies?
So, when the Pilot comes out and people are happily paying $2 to $5K over list, I'll just find a nice new MDX and pay list or less.
Acura MDX
Honda Oddysey
Honda Pilot
PT Cruiser
VW Beetle
Mini Cooper
BMW X5
Mercedes CLK430
Toyota Highlander
and on and on
keeping up with the Joneses(?) is very expensive
As to the Pilot, wait and see. I think we'll see something similar the the MDX as to pricing.
The dealers charge what they charge because they can get it. If you won't pay MSRP plus markup, but someone else will, then the dealer is going to keep charging it.
I don't understand the uproar about paying MSRP or higher for a car you want. MSRP is just a made up number after all - the market determines the price. If you can't afford it, that's one thing. But if you really want a certain car, but won't pay a couple of thousand extra out of your own distaste for paying more than that made-up MSRP number, well, you're the one who misses out, IMO.
-mike
On a loaded MDX at sticker, you're already talking $5K in gross profit AT LEAST!
There's nothing wrong with MSRP, that's my point. But if you can get a better deal, great. If not, that is what MSRP is for. That profit is also what the manufacturer determined should be the dealer max profit. If the dealer gets MSRP, that should be more than enough.
I agree, the MDX and many Japanese vehicles in general are well-equipped and a good value for their MSRP. The Acura TL Type S for example has become a great 'value' even at MSRP, same with the MDX. Again, the Accord; all great values. I wouldn't feel at all ripped off to pay MSRP. At least one can get an Accord for about invoice, even better deal. Likely, if the pricing comes off close, or MSRP vs. 'market adjustment,' I'd choose the MDX over Pilot hands-down.
BUT - you have these huge auto corporations that spend tremendous amounts of time and effort to determine fair market value - MSRP; why allow a dealer to over-charge, plain and simple.
If the dealer says one has to pay $1,000 for the 'Paint Protection Package' is that OK too? How about $2,500 for the 'extended warranty'? Is the dealer in charge here? How about 'special' headlight fluid? - If you are paying more than MSRP, that is essentially what you are paying, fluff charges, padding!
An automobile, unlike a house in the bay area, is a depreciating asset, period. At least with real estate you can generally get what you paid, if not far more, over time when you sell.
I agree with your analysis of market pricing (dealers are only charging what the market is willing to bear), however, not being willing to pay over MSRP does not mean missing out on something. It just means that somebody is not willing to pay market price. If you look at your demand curve, some ppl are willing to pay more than your equilibrium price and some less. It's that simple.
If dealers in the SF bay area want to mark it up, I'll just wait them out, or I'll order out of state and drive it back home. BTW, did anybody try to order a Pilot in Reno? It's not that far after all. Furthermore, with the economy in shamble out here, I'm not sure whether dealers will be able to gouge that much.
Of course someone made the point that people will pay $100K over asking prices on houses out there too which is amazing (and laughable for most of us). Good luck on those purchases and make sure you give your CA Honda dealers a big tip and a big hug.
And who cares what the profit margin is to the manufacturer and dealer. The consumer must decide what he is willing to pay for a product, i.e. its value to him. This may or may not have any relationship to its cost.
Ultimately those manufacturers who produce excellent products with a reasonable cost structure will prosper. Those with lousy products and a high cost structure will die. It's the American way.
Mwcarlso - Go to the link below, click on the picture of the Pilot, and read the silly article. The short answer is, "nope".
http://www.hondasuv.com/
On another note... anyone, other than "Mr. Isuzu", confirm that the Pilot will have outside temp available on the automatic climate control unit?
Don't be foolish to rush out and get taken for a ride. Let the market forces calm down first. When the Beetle, PT Cruisers was just out, the dealers caught some big fishes like that.
I know that I got MSRP quote for the Ody, MDX in CA without add ons, you probably can too. I did not check the Pilot yet.
MSRP is out there but you have work a little in calling and travelling to get the good price.
Personally, I will not pay above MSRP but I will pay less. I brought my Accord EX at invoice long before also.
I think MSRP is the dealer way of saying, the vehicle is worth this much compared to competitors models.
For a home, there's a difference but I would not pay anything outrageous. At least it appreciates most of the time even in bad economies.
And again if you have money to burn, you can do anything.
A penny saved is a penny earned if you are not in a hurry.
Just my 2 cents..
That's Joe Isuzu to you!
-mike
Same phenomenom is at work in our real estate market: there is a finite supply of housing in the SF Bay Area. We have the ocean on one side and some hills on the other, and in between we have wonderful weather and pretty much no more land to build on. Ppl can go live to the east past the hills but then it's a much warmer climate (10 to 20 degrees more easily) and further away from work. Since the long term trend is that more ppl will relocate to the coasts, demand will keep on increasing and will drive prices up.
True. Then again, take a look at the 30+K price tags on the competition.
Sbcooke - The radio is up top. The DVD (or NAV) is down on the botton.
MSRP does NOT reflect the VALUE of a vehicle to an individual purchaser. The VALUE of a vehicle to an individual is equally complex - it includes 'bragging rights', local pricing adjustments (see SF Bay Area), urgency in getting the vehicle, likely future depreciation, and of course comparisons with 'out-the-door' prices on competitive vehicles.
IMO, to make a blanket statement that 'I will never pay above MSRP' or 'I will never pay more than x dollars over invoice' means that you simply don't understand the economics of selling and buying a car. Sure, you want to drive a hard bargain, but dealer costs vary, local demand varies, therefore out-the-door prices will vary.
Put the shoe on the other foot - if you had a garage sale and offered a bicycle for sale for $50, and four people wanted to buy the bike and the highest offer was $100 - would you sell the bike at $50? More to the point, if you had another similar bike for sale the next week would you offer it for sale at $50 or $100?
Oh well it's a Honda so the Journalist overall found it to be perfect. Go figure, at least they said the interior sucked.
-mike
I have yet to see that article, but could the lack of cargo space be due to the 3rd row seat? Fold it down and the cargo space goes way up. It's a much bigger vehicle than the Aztek or Subaru. I've got to test drive it vs the Rendezvous before I make my decision, but if the article compares the Pilot to the Aztek or any Subaru product, they're comparing apples and oranges.
You can see the Havasa Blue Metallic color by customizing an MDX on Acura's website.
http://www.acura.com/model_mdx/mdx_byo/mdx_byo_step1_con.asp
Those of you complaining about over-MSRP pricing from the dealer would probably be REALLY miffed if you knew how much profit the manufacturer pulls in on every car. At least you have some say over what the dealer makes. The manufacturer gets their hefty slice of the pie whether the car goes for invoice, MSRP or higher.
Paisan, the Honda is also AWD, but it does have a manual lock down helper. I'm not sure all of Motor Trend's reasoning at why the AWD systems in the other 2 vehicles were better, something about the percentage of power available to rear wheels and the fluidity of the change.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
I buy a Pilot for $30k (MSRP) and someone in CA buys the exact same model for $32k (MSRP + extra dealer profit). In four years we both go to sell our Pilot's and amazingly, they are both worth exactly the same in trade/retail value. Just because you pay more initially does not mean you will get it back later. This is not real estate. Real estate is an investment. Cars are not.
Anyone not shopping around and paying over MSRP is just depreciating their investment that much faster.
I have not seen the MT article, but by the way it sounds, the MDX is looking better all the time.
bengelking - not sure about your comment regarding depreciation. Used car prices are just as subject to local demand as new prices. If somebody wanted to buy a 2-year-old Odyssey in the SF Bay Area, there's every likelihood that they would end up paying more than somebody buying the same car in Iowa. Not all the new car markup is passed on, but a good percentage. Where you would lose out is if you bought in CA and tried to sell in IA...
Also, markups don't always go away when a new car model gets past its first year of production. See the Odyssey and MDX. Odyssey is now in it's 4th year and STILL being marked up.
As somebody else said, at the end of the day it is what the vehicle is worth to you. Just don't pay over MSRP to be the 1st person on the block, or to keep up with the Joneses (see Chrysler PT Cruiser). Buy a vehicle on its functional merits, not to impress others. Many people would argue that the Odyssey (and perhaps the Pilot when prices are announced) is a very good value for money, therefore paying a small markup is not so outrageous. It's just a shame that it goes to some generally poor dealers and not back to Honda for R&D etc.
BTW - I paid MSRP for a 2002 Odyssey, but would have paid over MSRP by up to $1,000 if I had had to...
Someone who pays more in CA will get it back at trade-in, as long as they don't move to Milwaukee
Edit: whoops, looks like pearson beat me to the punch