There are degrees of "crossoverness", if you will. Technically, the Jeeps are built on unit-body platforms, but I don't think anyone would classify them as minivans.
While the Pilot may be based on a minivan platform and the RDV may also be based on a minivan platform, one has fallen farther from the tree than the other. The difference may be as simple as styling, general shape, or the image projected by marketers, but buyers take notice of it. Like it or not, it's a big factor.
Oh, and I can't help wonder about something. How is it that the Aztek can be a direct competitor with the Pilot and the CR-V at the same time? Or did you not just try to revive that dead subject earlier today?
The Pilot is a larger more powerful version of the CRV. The Aztek falls in between them. I wasn't the one who started the whole Aztek vs. Pilot thing. I simply stated that Motor Trend compared them, and that I failed to see how the Pilot really faired much better.
They are both mid sized crossover vehicles and I see no reason why they can't be compared. Apparently Motor Trend sees no reason either.
As much as I dislike the Trailblazer and Exploder and Durango, you have to give it to them, they have a LOW RANGE real SUV drivetrain and chassis in them. The Pathfinder also has a beefy drivetrain and suspension. So I wouldn't put them in the same class as the Pilot for that reason. Highlander, Pilot, MDX, and the other car-based SUVs should be in a class of their own.
When will brochures be available so we can see the options and colors, still having trouble figuring out the two colors put off till august and where to see a representative picture of these. My wife may go the a beige like the ODY. What does an MDX go for with Nav? what does it include, heated seats moonroof, memory seats, wood what. How much difference in price are people willing to change from MDX to Pilot and vice versa. I would think that the EX-L-Nav must be substantially cheaper than the MDX or it would cannibilize the MDX and PIlot sales. Perhaps 1500 above the ODY EX-L-NAV (how much is the ODY equiped like this?)
True True. Then again over in the subie forum we had a guy comapring a WRX v. Vehicross! Go figure that one. What is your honda page again? Updating my webpage tonight and wanted to include a link.
My dealer's taking a test drive next week on 5/16 in King of Prussia, PA. He's also got a white Pilot "at the port," which I think means Philly, waiting to be released; he thinks it'll happen after the test drive. I can't wait! As for the Aztek....are you serious?!?! I'm sorry, but there's a reason people buy Honda. Can you say R-E-L-I-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y?
Those are nice tibits. But let's take a hard look at what is contained inside them? I haven't looked at em, but I'm willing to bet that the TSBs for the H/A products are things like:
"proceedure for changing oil changed, torque to only 85lbs rather than 90lbs as stated in manual"
whereas ones for the Aztek are more like:
"replace transmission mounts if vibration occurs randomly at speeds under 40mph"
I'm no H/A fan (Isuzu/Subaru fan personally) but the General has been dropping the reliability ball for years. Also I'd like you to come back here in say 10 years and let's have this same discussion and see what % of the Pilots sold in 2002 are on the road v. the % of Azteks sold in 2002. My money is on the Honda, and I don't even like Hondas at all!
It should be noted that the Aztek recall was only on 13 vehicles, it was for a fautly rear seat belt. The vehicle this really affected was the Pontiac Montana.
Wmquan - I was just reading the C&D Pilot article once more and I noted in the spec sheet that the valve gear is described as "Variable Intake-Valve Timing and Lift". Do you know if the MDX uses variable timing on both the intake and exhaust valves?
I cannot believe we are still discussing this topic? People must have extra time on their hands today. Has anyone on this board ever driven the things? I had an Aztec last winter as a rental while in Colorado... struggled to get up I-70 with its lack of power. Test drove the Rendezvous last year, cool interior gadgets and nice BOSE stereo but again NO POWER and no ground clearance. As far as price... if I remember correctly, a well equipped AWD Rendezvous is priced in the low to mid $30's, certainly not less than the Pilot. Now, I understand Buick is giving cars away these days, but a year later I would bet that a Pilot worth at least $5K more than the Buick.
Some TSB entries are redundant, some are for interior trim problems, water leaks, rattles, etc. Others are for grinding noises, malfunction codes, engine components, etc.
Both Honda/Acura and Pontiac have a similar ratio for mechanical vs. trim complaints.
The Pilot/MDX is a great SUV. In fact, if it had been around when I was shopping last summer, it would have been a toss-up between the Rendezvous and the Pilot.
If you care to research it, compare Buick and Honda over the last five years in recalls, TSB's and JD Power surveys. You'll discover that Buick consistently performs higher than Honda...and Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi, etc.
Of course I'm thrilled that my 10 year old Accord is still worth about $6000 (thank you Los Angeles teens). No comparable Buick can do that. I just think it is foolish to subscribe to the belief that Honda rules and GM drools. It's a myth.
Varmint - I'm no expert on this kind of stuff, but I don't believe so. The MDX's engine varies intake, but not exhaust. I know the RSX Type-S's engine varies both, and doesn't the S2000 do so too?
Where did you rent the Aztek, I've heard of people renting them, but I personally haven't had the oppurtunity to rent one. I love to rent cars for fun and long trips, and I will be renting a vehicle when I go to Hawaii. Interesting you had issues with power. The owners never really complain about power. Not only that but it seems to accelerate better than the truck based competition coming in at a reasonable 16.7 second quarter mile. That bests everything in this comparison including the Ford Explorer.
Thanks!! I'd love to rent an Aztek or RDV in Hawaii! One other thing, reasearch a little on the ground clearance and pricing, why don't you use edmunds TMV. You are quite a bit off with your current scheme.
I'm not a big fan of JD Power, because some of their awards are more marketing-inspired than anything else.
But the quality surveys aren't bad, as they're backed up by some statistical measure. In the IQS quality-related areas for 2001, the MDX ranks higher than the Aztek, and the Highlander ranks higher than the MDX. That's consistent with what most of us expect.
No Rendezvous measured yet, we'll just have to wait. FWIW I think the Buicks in general are put together with more care than the Pontiacs, though they're still inhibited by the GM platform sharing.
The Pilot should do better than the MDX, as most of the first-year bugs should have been worked out, leaving the Pilot with fewer opportunities for bugs.
Unfortunately, from the looks of the electronics, doesn't it look like adding a third-party system is going to be a pain? Perhaps it doesn't fit Honda's profile of Pilot buyers, but I'd love to see Honda try to put an MP3 player in it, like the Element will have.
Thanks Wmquan. While looking around, I found pretty much the same info at the Wieck site.
I can only imagine what Acura could do if they used VTEC with the exhaust valves. That, and a few other changes, took the RSX from 160 to 200hp. I don't think it's unreasonable to guess that they could get another 20-30hp out the MDX engine without sacrificing fuel efficiency or emissions. That would probably put the MDX in the 7.6 - 8.0 second range.
Paisan - Sorry! I guess Bing has been making changes to HondaSUV.com. The link on the main page doesn't seem to be working anymore. Here is the direct address.
<< If you care to research it, compare Buick and Honda over the last five years in recalls, TSB's and JD Power surveys. You'll discover that Buick consistently performs higher than Honda...and Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi, etc. >>
Most Buick owners drive at 2/10s, at best, so yes those cars are reliable. They're rarely if ever pushed to the limit.
Does anybody know if tinted windows in the back are going to be available on the Pilot LX? It would seem like a rip-off if they weren't. $28,000 is a lot to pay to not get tinted windows, and if I'm positive, they come standard on all Highlanders.
Don't know if the Pilot LX won't have tinted windows in the back. But to be fair, the Highlander only comes with "privacy glass" if you buy the Limited edition.
Kw-carman - Nope. Only the EX models have privacy class. Clink on the link I provided above and you'll find other details along that line. As for the price... $28K seems to be the estimated price for the EX. So, yes, it is standard at that price. Or were you talking about after taxes?
$28K for a Pilot EX? That would be amazing. Are there hard numbers on the pricing for the Pilot yet? Sounds like it will have everything....price, good mileage, 7 Pass. seating, and the Honda reliabilty. It is sure to be a huge hit for Honda.
llofgren - Most pricing estimates have the EX ranging from $27.5-28K. This is not the EX-L model which will probably be somewhere between $29-30K. Nor does it include the NAV or DVD, which will land between $31-32K.
Again, I'm talking MSRP, not the "out the door" price.
i think most newer cars nowadays come with "tinted" glass. look at the tiny writing on your window it might say tinted, but of course its still looks clear to us. i dunno why they call it tinted because to most people tinted=darkened glass. so yes to most of us privacy glass is the same as tinted glass.
I'll still bet the EX (without leather) won't be $28k. I'm guessing $29k-$30.5k.
Figure that a lot of folks will add some accessories of some kind -- e.g. mud flaps, cargo cover (won't come with the vehicle), CD changer (assuming the EX won't come with one), cargo tray, driving/fog lights, or any combination. That'll affect the out-the-door price.
We should know soon enough, with deliveries supposedly targetted at early June. This week, perhaps?
It does seem Honda is very good at decontenting some vehicle features that were available 10 years ago. If the same logic of not having tinted/privacy glass in the Pilot LX is applied to the Odyssey LX, why does the Odyssey have the same window treatment the EX has? Humm?
Having owned a 1991 Accord EX and observing various Hondas models over the years they have decontented/lowered the bar in the following areas: 1. Exhaust finishers now gone 2. Quality of seat fabric (now so thin) 3. Roof rack cross bars now an accessory in the Odysey 4. The general solid metal bank vault feeling/sound of closing doors and hoods.
IMHO many interior materials are not much better now than the Big 3.
Hi Pilot guys. If any of you had the decision, would you go for a CR-V or a Pilot? It would have to be a Honda, because we have a good mechanic around here. It would be used mostly for commuting (35 miles daily round trip), and family trips/outings with it would be interchanged between it and a 2000 Sienna. It would be a replacement for a 1987 Accord, which could be biting the dust at anytime. It would mostly be driven by a male in his mid-forties (no, not me).
"If the same logic of not having tinted/privacy glass in the Pilot LX is applied to the Odyssey LX, why does the Odyssey have the same window treatment the EX has? Humm?"
Here's the tongue-in-cheek answer: because SUV's are about roughing it, even though the Pilot isn't a traditional SUV and can't rough much. You're supposed to accept less doo-dads in an SUV. I'm kidding!
Here's the more serious observation ...
Decontenting is an industry trend, in order to keep prices relatively low and keep the sticker shock down.
We forget easily how less than two decades ago, the concept of buying a family sedan for any more than $15k was preposterous. Now you have family sedans that easily reach the mid-$20's and knock on the $30's.
I suppose that cars today are vastly improved. More and better safety technology, lower emissions, some more passenger-friendly features, more reliable than ever (as a whole), etc.
But manufacturers have been constantly pulling out content and generally lowering the expectations of buyers. Acura really equips their vehicles to be "near-luxury" as opposed to true luxury. The new Nissan Altima has a cheesey interior, and the Toyota Camry has definitely had its interior downgraded. MB has been roundly criticized for its lower-cost vehicles.
But it's not just the import manufacturers. GM has decontented the new Cadillac Deville (somewhat), and Lutz has said he wants to look harder at reducing the doodads in the vehicle. Some are relatively less painful for the broad audience, like all the latest electronic wizardry (though GM stays committed to OnStar). But some make me nervous as they relate to safety, e.g. rear-seat headrests (ouch ... I hope he's not serious about that). Not to mention that GM doesn't seem to be investing enough in safety, given the performance of many of their recent vehicles in crash tests.
The manufacturers with 2 or more divisions (which is basically everyone except for Hyundai and all the smaller Japanese brands) know that they need to keep the distinction between their cars that are affordable to the masses, and their luxury cars that only a few can afford.
Too much luxury in their expensive cars and they'll have to keep pushing the envelope further with every redesign. Too much luxury in their affordable cars and they'll wander into luxury territory.
Rented the Aztek through Avis in Denver, trust me not my choice. However, they were out of my usual Trailblazer and needed AWD. As far as power goes, it was awful.. couldn't accelerate to get on the freeway or pass on a grade without "flooring" the vehicle. I found the same issues when I test drove the Rendezvous while trying to get on the freeway in CA.
Maybe the reason others have not complained is because most people looking to purchase an Aztek are coming out of a different buyer demographic than those considering a higher-end Pilot or MDX... to them... the Aztek may have adequate power compared to their existing car, based on pricing of the Aztek... most likely a 4 cylinder. I currently drive a V-8 Mountaineer and am very much looking forward to my new Pilot to arrive in a few weeks. I have liked the Mountaineer other than the terrible resale, and as one who must replace my car every few years due to business constraints... owning traditional SUV's is costing me a fortune in recent years.
With the GM producst, I cannot tolerate the sluggishnish of the Aztek/Rendezvous engine. However, I also couldn't drive a Subaru 4 cylinder, Honda CRV, or Suzuki XL-7 (V-6 rented that one too) for the same reason. Realize... here in CA you have to be able to quickly accelerate to at least 70mph to get on the Freeway safely... not to mention common lengthy uphill grades can be quite a strain on vehicles. Anyway... understand what the "numbers" may indicate on power... but as a consumer, my GM "hybrid" experiences have not been positive.
Comments
While the Pilot may be based on a minivan platform and the RDV may also be based on a minivan platform, one has fallen farther from the tree than the other. The difference may be as simple as styling, general shape, or the image projected by marketers, but buyers take notice of it. Like it or not, it's a big factor.
Oh, and I can't help wonder about something. How is it that the Aztek can be a direct competitor with the Pilot and the CR-V at the same time? Or did you not just try to revive that dead subject earlier today?
They are both mid sized crossover vehicles and I see no reason why they can't be compared. Apparently Motor Trend sees no reason either.
-mike
Thanks for pointing it out!
tidester
Host
SUVs
What does an MDX go for with Nav? what does it include, heated seats moonroof, memory seats, wood what. How much difference in price are people willing to change from MDX to Pilot and vice versa. I would think that the EX-L-Nav must be substantially cheaper than the MDX or it would cannibilize the MDX and PIlot sales. Perhaps 1500 above the ODY EX-L-NAV (how much is the ODY equiped like this?)
-mike
2001 Acura MDX - 22
2001 Honda Odyssey - 31
2001 Honda Civic - 65, 5 recalls
2001 Honda Accord - 48, 2 recalls
2001 Pontiac Aztek - 29, 1 recall
There's a reason people buy Azteks. Can you say R-E-L-I-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y and V-A-L-U-E?
"proceedure for changing oil changed, torque to only 85lbs rather than 90lbs as stated in manual"
whereas ones for the Aztek are more like:
"replace transmission mounts if vibration occurs randomly at speeds under 40mph"
I'm no H/A fan (Isuzu/Subaru fan personally) but the General has been dropping the reliability ball for years. Also I'd like you to come back here in say 10 years and let's have this same discussion and see what % of the Pilots sold in 2002 are on the road v. the % of Azteks sold in 2002. My money is on the Honda, and I don't even like Hondas at all!
-mike
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/tsb/index.cfm
It should be noted that the Aztek recall was only on 13 vehicles, it was for a fautly rear seat belt. The vehicle this really affected was the Pontiac Montana.
Some TSB entries are redundant, some are for interior trim problems, water leaks, rattles, etc. Others are for grinding noises, malfunction codes, engine components, etc.
Both Honda/Acura and Pontiac have a similar ratio for mechanical vs. trim complaints.
The Pilot/MDX is a great SUV. In fact, if it had been around when I was shopping last summer, it would have been a toss-up between the Rendezvous and the Pilot.
If you care to research it, compare Buick and Honda over the last five years in recalls, TSB's and JD Power surveys. You'll discover that Buick consistently performs higher than Honda...and Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi, etc.
Of course I'm thrilled that my 10 year old Accord is still worth about $6000 (thank you Los Angeles teens). No comparable Buick can do that. I just think it is foolish to subscribe to the belief that Honda rules and GM drools. It's a myth.
Here's the VTEC in the MDX described:
http://english.acuracanada.ca/models/mdx_benefits_description.asp#c05
Wonder how the torque curve would look if Honda/Acura added in the variable exhaust for the MDX or the Pilot?
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/46966/page020.html
Thanks!! I'd love to rent an Aztek or RDV in Hawaii! One other thing, reasearch a little on the ground clearance and pricing, why don't you use edmunds TMV. You are quite a bit off with your current scheme.
I'm not a big fan of JD Power, because some of their awards are more marketing-inspired than anything else.
But the quality surveys aren't bad, as they're backed up by some statistical measure. In the IQS quality-related areas for 2001, the MDX ranks higher than the Aztek, and the Highlander ranks higher than the MDX. That's consistent with what most of us expect.
No Rendezvous measured yet, we'll just have to wait. FWIW I think the Buicks in general are put together with more care than the Pontiacs, though they're still inhibited by the GM platform sharing.
The Pilot should do better than the MDX, as most of the first-year bugs should have been worked out, leaving the Pilot with fewer opportunities for bugs.
I can only imagine what Acura could do if they used VTEC with the exhaust valves. That, and a few other changes, took the RSX from 160 to 200hp. I don't think it's unreasonable to guess that they could get another 20-30hp out the MDX engine without sacrificing fuel efficiency or emissions. That would probably put the MDX in the 7.6 - 8.0 second range.
http://66.28.132.100/pilot/viewtopic.php?t=7
Most Buick owners drive at 2/10s, at best, so yes those cars are reliable. They're rarely if ever pushed to the limit.
Bob
Bob
All those darn Civic drivers with their coffee can exhaust, and those big wings!
Again, I'm talking MSRP, not the "out the door" price.
Figure that a lot of folks will add some accessories of some kind -- e.g. mud flaps, cargo cover (won't come with the vehicle), CD changer (assuming the EX won't come with one), cargo tray, driving/fog lights, or any combination. That'll affect the out-the-door price.
We should know soon enough, with deliveries supposedly targetted at early June. This week, perhaps?
Having owned a 1991 Accord EX and observing various Hondas models over the years they have decontented/lowered the bar in the following areas:
1. Exhaust finishers now gone
2. Quality of seat fabric (now so thin)
3. Roof rack cross bars now an accessory in the Odysey
4. The general solid metal bank vault feeling/sound of closing doors and hoods.
IMHO many interior materials are not much better now than the Big 3.
Salute
If I can make this analogy:
CRV = Civic
Pilot = Accord
I'm thinking in terms of comfort and content.
Bob
Here's the tongue-in-cheek answer: because SUV's are about roughing it, even though the Pilot isn't a traditional SUV and can't rough much. You're supposed to accept less doo-dads in an SUV. I'm kidding!
Here's the more serious observation ...
Decontenting is an industry trend, in order to keep prices relatively low and keep the sticker shock down.
We forget easily how less than two decades ago, the concept of buying a family sedan for any more than $15k was preposterous. Now you have family sedans that easily reach the mid-$20's and knock on the $30's.
I suppose that cars today are vastly improved. More and better safety technology, lower emissions, some more passenger-friendly features, more reliable than ever (as a whole), etc.
But manufacturers have been constantly pulling out content and generally lowering the expectations of buyers. Acura really equips their vehicles to be "near-luxury" as opposed to true luxury. The new Nissan Altima has a cheesey interior, and the Toyota Camry has definitely had its interior downgraded. MB has been roundly criticized for its lower-cost vehicles.
But it's not just the import manufacturers. GM has decontented the new Cadillac Deville (somewhat), and Lutz has said he wants to look harder at reducing the doodads in the vehicle. Some are relatively less painful for the broad audience, like all the latest electronic wizardry (though GM stays committed to OnStar). But some make me nervous as they relate to safety, e.g. rear-seat headrests (ouch ... I hope he's not serious about that). Not to mention that GM doesn't seem to be investing enough in safety, given the performance of many of their recent vehicles in crash tests.
The manufacturers with 2 or more divisions (which is basically everyone except for Hyundai and all the smaller Japanese brands) know that they need to keep the distinction between their cars that are affordable to the masses, and their luxury cars that only a few can afford.
Too much luxury in their expensive cars and they'll have to keep pushing the envelope further with every redesign. Too much luxury in their affordable cars and they'll wander into luxury territory.
Maybe the reason others have not complained is because most people looking to purchase an Aztek are coming out of a different buyer demographic than those considering a higher-end Pilot or MDX... to them... the Aztek may have adequate power compared to their existing car, based on pricing of the Aztek... most likely a 4 cylinder. I currently drive a V-8 Mountaineer and am very much looking forward to my new Pilot to arrive in a few weeks. I have liked the Mountaineer other than the terrible resale, and as one who must replace my car every few years due to business constraints... owning traditional SUV's is costing me a fortune in recent years.
With the GM producst, I cannot tolerate the sluggishnish of the Aztek/Rendezvous engine. However, I also couldn't drive a Subaru 4 cylinder, Honda CRV, or Suzuki XL-7 (V-6 rented that one too) for the same reason. Realize... here in CA you have to be able to quickly accelerate to at least 70mph to get on the Freeway safely... not to mention common lengthy uphill grades can be quite a strain on vehicles. Anyway... understand what the "numbers" may indicate on power... but as a consumer, my GM "hybrid" experiences have not been positive.
Jerry
http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/03pilot.htm
When is the Pilot demo at the MCI center?