Your observations mirrored our first impressions. But after nearly a month of serious looking we came up with some other reality. Could be that different areas of the country, offer different things! This is not intended as a flame of your post. Just a different way of looking at the Pilot.
"it lacked a rear window".
All the Pilots I've seen have had rear windows. Therefore I feel that you must have meant an "Opening" rear window. I agree that it should have been an option.
"It lacked fog lights which were not available."
Fog lights are an availabe dealer option.
"But it lacked more than most SUV's in its size."
Lacked more of what?
"Its roof rack did not have standard beams like the other SUV's we checked. They were optional."
Yes they are optional. If I don't like their looks and/or can't see a need for them on our Pilot, I don't have to pay for them. Same with fog lights, DVD Player, cargo cover, or any other option offered. "Standard features" are not free. They are ALL figured into the bottom line. If you don't want them or don't like them, you pay for them anyway.
Over on the Nissan Murano Forum, the guys are complaining about having to get complete packages to get 1 item that they want. Honda sees fit to offer seperate items. If we want all the items, we can order all of them. If we want just a few, same thing.
"Also, while the front and second row seats were real leather, the 3rd row seat appeared to be some cheap imitation."
A good grade of Vinyl (SP) will outlast most factory automobile grade leather. It doesn't absorb moisture, more resistant to stains, and is just as puncture resistant. Motorcycles and boats stopped using leather, years ago. Why? Quality vinyl is less expensive and last longer. It is ideal where baby bottles and/or kid stains and spills are likely to occur. That 3rd row seat is not large enough for comfortable adult seating. Most likely kids/babies will be back there. Spilling stuff! Honda could have put leather on those 3rd row seating surfaces, at a higher price. Or they can have leather installed on them for you. Or you can get it done at an upholstery shop.
You might also find that vinyl, makes up most of the "LEATHER LOOK" of most vehicles. Generally speaking, with the exception of a few really Luxury Vehicles, the leather is Only on the "Seating Surfaces". The seat bolsters, seat backs, door panel, dash, and so forth are actually a high quality vinyl. Notice the auto ads. They used to say leather seats. Now they mostly say, leather seating surfaces.
"It also lacked a shiftable 4th gear to fully match its 5-speed automatic transmission."
That bothered me before we bought ours. Several other Posters mentioned this. However, after putting a few hundred miles on ours, it is no longer a concern. A shiftable forth gear would be of little use on the Pilot. Other than adding more $$ to the price. After spending some time in various SUVs, with 6 cylinders, we found that the ones with 4 speed autos are turning about the same RPM at a given speed as the Pilot does in its 4th gear. With the Pilots overall gear ratio, it's 5th gear is kind of a super overdrive. In D3 the pilot turns about the same RPM as a 4 speed does with OD locked out. They are both in 3rd gear, right?
In DR3, the Pilot turns about the same RPM as my friends Cherokee (6 cylinder)) when OD is locked out. About 3200 at 60mph. My Dodge Ram, with 5.9 V8 engine, turned about 2800 with the OD locked out. A Little more or less! Locking the Pilot in 4th would do little for compression braking, and little for towing. I've noticed that our Pilot does not spend any time searching between 5th and 4th. If it needs 4th, it "Seemlessly" goes there and stays until the need is gone, (topping a hill) and goes back to 5th. It seems to really "THINK" about 5th gear before going there. It is really not noticable unless I'm watching the tach. It doesn't shift back and forth between 4th and 5th while on that hill. If it drops to 4th, it is committed.
"The EX does come standard with both cassette and CD. The LX is not available with cassette. Let's face it. Most of us still have cassettes as well as CD's. But I can not see paying the EX price for that!
The EX includes a few more items than just the Cassette player.
"Also, the LX is not available with at least a power driver's side seat".
That is another "Standard" feature of the "Higher" priced EX.
Pilot does not offer a power front passenger seat, as some have mentioned. In the 48 years that I've been driving, I believe I have never had a passenger remark that they wished I had a Power Pasenger seat. They get in, adjust fore/aft, adjust seat back angle. And "SEEM" happy. The passenger has no need to situate between steering wheel and pedals, like the driver does. Their chairs at work and home are most likely not 8 way powered. Yet they somehow get comfortable and sit in them for many hours a day.
"My suggestion is to hold off on buying a 2003 and see if the 2004's are improved."
I agree with another poster. Chances are good that the 2004 will be exactly like the 2003.
We spent countless hours on the internet, at dealers, talking with owners, and driving every Suv available to us. Dollar for dollar, feature for feature, ride for ride, handling for handling, the Pilot seemed to be the best value, for us.
One last thing. We went to Kelly Blue Book, and did comparison used car values on 2 year old Hondas vs other similar vehicles with similar MSRP. As this is Pilots 1st year, we could not use it, but we did use the CVR and Odysse.
Here is an example:
CRV EX vs Tribute ES (I think). Same MSRP. 2001 models of each with 20K miles. The CRV is worth about $3000 more than the Tribute. My wife was doing this, and I don't remember if she was looking at Trade value or Retail value. The difference in an Odysse and other mini vans was scary! I would think the Pilots value would hold up as well!
The burn rate between regular and premium is not significantly different. The gas/air mixture in a cylinder does not "explode" but rather burns away from the spark plug-----normally. However, given a high enough temperature and enough pressure, the gas/air mixture will "explode". This is the "pinging" sound you can hear under the right conditions. The lead additive (actually, tetraethyl lead, which is where the term "Ethyl" came from for premium fuel), through a chemical reaction, increases the amount of temperature and pressure that is required to cause a premium fuel to "explode". It has no effect on rings nor mileage in an engine designed for regular fuels.
The initial timing also has little to do with whether an engine should burn premium or regular. What counts is total timing, initial plus centrifugal. My premium burning, 11:1 compression Corvette has an intial timing of 5 degrees.
The fall-off in winter (cold weather) mileage is caused mostly by the engine using more fuel to come up to and stay at operating temperature. Rolling friction is also higher when a vehicle's oil and seals are cold. Also, the winter blends may contain fuels (including some alcohol) that have lower BTU (or energy) per gallon. However, 40 years ago when I first started driving and keeping track of every gallon of fuel that went through my vehicles, I also saw the same fall-off in fuel economy. And that was long before EPA and all the special blends they now require.
Good post! This creates a few questions from this old goat, still not to old to learn. Please don't take this as anything other than curiosity and a desire to learn! I understand that the combustion inside a cylinder is simply the spark ingiting the fuel mixture closest to it. The fire spreads throughout the combustion chamber, creates enormous preasure, and drives the piston downward. I call that very rapid combustion an explosion. Basically the same thing that happens with a firearm cartridge.
"The burn rate between regular and premium is not significantly different. The gas/air mixture in a cylinder does not "explode" but rather burns away from the spark plug-----normally."
What is the main difference between an explosion and an incredibly fast burn? The type of burn that has to happen in an engine? Example: We light the fuse to a firecracker. The "Burning" fuse (ignition source)lights off the internal powder at one end. The "Burning" spreads through the rest of the powder at a very fast rate, creating preasure. It has nowhere to send the preasure, so it blows away the weakest part of its' containment. Isn't this what is considered to be an explosion? In principle, how is that different from a spark plug igniting fuel in a cylinder. Fuel ignites, preasure builds, so one side of it's case, the piston, gets blown away, down the cylinder. Either of those fuels, without containment, poured on an open area, don't "Explode" when lit, they just burn.
"However, given a high enough temperature and enough pressure, the gas/air mixture will "explode"."
That is my contention! If the spark happens too soon. The preasure building from the igniting fuel, is trying to go somewhere. Normally it follows (pushes) the piston into the cylinder. However, If the piston is still coming up on its compression stroke, that preasure attempts to push the piston backward, while the crank is pushing it upward, thus increasing the preasure even more. Resulting in noise, clatter, pinging and slamming of the piston that is in an upward mode. Kind of like putting the transmission in reverse while going forward. Changing direction of those moving drive axels will make some unwanted noises.
"This is the "pinging" sound you can hear under the right conditions. The lead additive (actually, tetraethyl lead, which is where the term "Ethyl" came from for premium fuel), through a chemical reaction, increases the amount of temperature and pressure that is required to cause a premium fuel to "explode". It has no effect on rings nor mileage in an engine designed for regular fuels."
That I understand! Putting premium in a "Regular engine" , does little more than add extra cost.
I guess, where I'm having the most trouble understanding is where you said: "through a chemical reaction, increases the amount of temperature and pressure that is required to cause a premium fuel to "explode"."
What is the definition of that explosion? How is it different from the combustion that normally take place in a cylinder. Other than ignition source of high temps vs spark?
If you added an ingredient to seriously slow down the burn rate of the powder inside a fire cracker, would it still pop (explode)? Or would it just Phizzzzz?
If you take an engine designed for, say 6% initial advance, and increase that to 12% you will most likely get ping. Yet you have not mechanically increased the temperature or preasure. The preasure built 6% too soon in an overly large combustion chamber, because the piston wasn't there yet. Suddenly the piston is trying to get into that space. There is way more preasure here than desired. The piston "HITS" excessive increasing resistance. Could that cause a noise, similiar to slapping water with your hand? The piston continues toward the top of its travel. Increasing the preasure, friction, and heat. Could this cause a secondary reaction?
"The initial timing also has little to do with whether an engine should burn premium or regular. What counts is total timing, initial plus centrifugal. My premium burning, 11:1 compression Corvette has an intial timing of 5 degrees."
That is MOSTLY true with modern engines, especially those with electronic controlled ignitions. Even more so with todays computer controlled timing, with their built in knock sensors and such.
Your Vette requires a 5 degree initial timing with the advance set up of your timing management system. For best performance, if you change most anything about that timing managament system, it will necessitate a change in initial timing.
My last car, with computer controlled timing, required initial timing to be set at Top Dead Center (TDC). That is 5 degrees retarded from your Vette setting. It burned "Regular". In this particular case, the premium fuel still allows a greater initial advance than regular.
I just believe that if you disconnect your knock sensor and advance your timing to 10% you will experience knocking, pinging, even though you did not mechanically increase temp or compression.
Any further discussion and help would be most appreciated. I kinda believe that our individual definitions of Explosion is the key to this thing. I believe the additive in Premium fuels serves to slow down and lenthen the burn rate. I THINK you are saying, it simply increases its' resistance to temp and preasure, but does not effect burn rate.
What is the main difference between an explosion and an incredibly fast burn?
One produces a shockwave and the other one doesn't. I think the shockwave itself is responsible (through compression at the shock front) for igniting the fuel as it propagates whereas, in ordinary burning, fuel is ignited by direct heating.
Sequoia has leather third row seats. I'm sure other American SUVs have leather. I believe that Honda/Acura chose not to install leather in the third row is because they want to keep the price down. Also, most people will not be using the third row because it is very tight and uncomfortable.
yes...for an MSRP of $43500 the sequoia limited does come with real Leather on its 3rd row seats
The Ford Explorer (more of a direct comparison) also has vinyl 3rd row seats when you select leather interior as an option.
I'm pleased with the quality of the fake leather in the 3rd row of my pilot. I'm sure it was a cost savings measure but it is also functional for what I use the 3rd row for.
Somewhere, I've got a book from my Internal Combustion Engine courses that shows a two series of pictures taken through the head of a special engine used for combustion studies. These pictures were taken only milli-seconds apart (or probably micro-seconds apart--I don't remember). The first series, shows the spark and then a number of pictures showing the flame front advancing across the cylinder (not unlike starting a fire in the middle of a staw field and watching it burn outward in all directions), and then the flame front dies out as it reaches the cylinder walls.
The next series of pictures, everything is the same except the compression has been raised. The spark occurs, the flame front advances some, and then the balance of the unburned fuel/air mixture explodes. That is, in one frame, the cylinder goes from partly white (burned fuel) and partly dark (unburned fuel) to completely white. That very sudden and rapid pressure spike is the "ping" and it's the sound of the explosion reverberating through the engine that you hear. It was caused by the combination of the higher compression and the increasing cylinder pressure as the flame front advanced.
The trick in getting the maximum hp (in very general terms) is to develop as much pressure as you can before top dead center (TDC) without getting into detonation and then having enough compression ratio, which is really a ratio of expansion volume to TDC volume, to take advantage of the higher TDC volume. Without the compression ratio (expansion volume), the high TDC pressure just results in higher end gas pressure that is wasted to atmosphere when the exhaust valve opens.
As was stated in article on the web site posted above, premium fuel takes more pressure (at a given temperature) to self-ignite than regular fuel. Think about diesel engines. There are no spark plugs and they depend on compression pressure to ignite their air/fuel mixture. When the pressure (and temperature) are high enough, the charge pretty well fires at once (explodes) and thus the continuous diesel "rattle". The diesel compression ratios also start out in the high-teens and go to the low-twenties---which means they have lots of expansion volume to make full use of their peak pressures and they thus provide better fuel economy.
Yes, you can take a regular fuel engine, advance the timing a few degrees, and avoid pinging/detonation by then using premium fuel. You won't get much horsepower gain, however, as the engine doesn't have the higher compression to take advantage of the higher TDC pressure before, again, the exhaust valve opens and lets the end pressure out----which can lead to another very long discussion that I'm not really prepared to get into.
I hope this helps a little. In short, use the gas the engine manufacturer calls for---unless you start hearing some pinging (which really isn't good for an engine despite what some dealers will tell you). With today's very lean engines, tuned for economy, you may need to go up a grade in gasoline after miles and carbon have built up. Some Ford engines in particular have struggled with this.
Oh yes, my old Corvette (1967) doesn't have knock sensors or much else-----except horsepower!!!
At the risk of generating lot's of flames, I would like to relay my recent evaluation and purchase of an SUV. I had started following this thread a few months ago as I was looking for something to replace a 1993 Mercury Grand Marquis that I also used to tow a 3200 lb boat and trailer. It has been a great car with no drivetrain issues in 180,000 miles and few other issues. I would have bought a new one, but Ford, in their infinite wisdom (stupidity), dropped their towing packages for these cars some years ago.
The Pilot looked like a reasonable alternative and we took one for a test drive. It was quiet, it rode and handled well (for an SUV), and it was rated for (I think) 21 mpg. Dealer's here in Minnesota wanted list price and, once you picked an exterior color, there was no choice on the interior color. And of course you went on a wait list.
On a whim, I and my wife took a 2003 Explorer for a test drive. It was an Eddie Bauer version with the 4.6 V-8. It rode and handled as well as the Pilot (for our tastes, anyway). The new, in 2002, frame, front suspension and independent rear suspension on the Explorer really are big improvements over the older ones. The V-8 and 5 speed automatic really felt strong. One can even get at the spark plugs on the engine.
Started talking pricing, and, with rebates and hungrier dealers, there was less than $1000 difference between the loaded Eddie Bauer Explorer and a Pilot with leather, the dealer installed tow package, CD changer etc. The Explorer has a 5000 lb tow rating, the "magic" of a V-8 and a much more substantial feel to it. It also has a 4WD low range, which I don't remember the Pilot having. We did give up 1 mpg but it does weigh about 1000 lbs more. Oh yes, the Explorer had heated leather seats (a very big deal to my wife) and the Pilot did not.
Anyway, that's what we bought and my wife loves it!! I was just cleaning out my "favorites" site and thought I would share---plus I couldn't help but get into the "Octane" discussion.
I do remain impressed with the Pilot, but the supply needs to catch up with the demand, there needs to be some more choices on colors, both inside and out, and they need to heat their leather seats here in Minnesota!!
"The trick in getting the maximum hp (in very general terms) is to develop as much pressure as you can before top dead center (TDC) without getting into detonation and then having enough compression ratio, which is really a ratio of expansion volume to TDC volume, to take advantage of the higher TDC volume."
The last phrase should have been "to take advantage of the higher TDC pressure."
Explorer vs Pilot
I went back and checked the prices without some of the options that were on the Explorer that we bought that you can't get on the Pilot (backup sensor, auxillary rear air and heater, factory moonroof, etc.) and you can actually buy an Eddie Bauer Explorer for less than a Pilot with similar equipment. The Pilot, in addition to the none heated leather seats, also won't have a power passenger seat and a 2 position memory driver's seat. Of course, you'll see a lot more of the Explorers on the road----and maybe the above is why.
But you pay for that extra re-sale value in the initial purpose, so it negates the benefit, also what if you keep it for a long time? Then the re-sale is not really an issue.
Your mentioning your 67 Vette caused a "flashback" here.
In late '64 I ordered a new Pontiac GTO. Red w/Black Vinyl Bucket seats. 389 w/3 duces, 4 in floor, red stripe tiger paw tires. No air, no PS, no PB. I wanted a Vette, but could not afford the extra $1000-$1500, as I remember. Paid $3200 for the GTO. Ain't hindsight wonderful?? If I had only known then, what I know now, I would be a rich man.
Speaking of gas, I remenber "Gas Wars" in the early 60's, and paying 14.9 cents for regular and just slightly more for Ethyl. Seems like it was somewhere in the early to mid '60s that Gulf came out with a Purple Colored gas, with 93 octain.
Things were so simple back then. Replace the TWO mufflers, replace the card main jets (15 minutes), bump the timing a bit, and be ready to rock and roll!
Every section of town had a nearby road with a marked 1/4 mile section, perfect for drag racing.
Chevy fans could buy a Genuine "DUNTOF" (SP) cam from the Chevy dealer, for $18-$30, depending if he could get it for "Garage" price, or had to pay retail. Those cams sure created a sweet sounding "LOPE"!
A guy on a budget, doing his own work, could have the heads milled, install the cam,lifters, and springs, chevy P/U mufflers (or glass packs), re-jet the carb, bump the timing, and use Ethyl. All for about $200. Getting all teary eyed, just thinking about it!
I agree about the new Explorers, driving nice, and getting a lot for the money. It was certainly one of our considerations.
We declined, mainly due to it's past history of problems. A friend works for Fred Jones, Ford's Remanufacturer. He said they had a backlog of Explorer, and small P/U auto tranies. There were permenate "fixes" for the problems, but Ford would not allow them to use anything other than Genuine Ford Parts. So the "Remaned" ones were no better than the original. Destined to fail! Hopefully these new 5 speeds will be stronger and trouble free.
We bought the Pilot, based on Honda's record of reliability and resale value. Realizing it is a new product, bother my wife somewhat. But, I explained that it't mechanical design is already proven with the Acura MDX. Sure hope that to be true! I bought an extended warranty, just in case!
Comparing a Hyundai and a Honda, I would agree the initial price difference does negate the resale benefit. Comparing a 30k Pilot and a 28-32k Explorer V8, there is not that much difference between the two. If you keep it 2 or 3 years, which these days is about average, the Pilot will be worth much more than 1-2k difference. I love some of the lesser known Japanese and also American vehicles, but I just sold 2 American vehicles in the last 2 years and took a beating. Losing 65% of the value in 3 years is not Honda-like.
If you keep it till it dies then resale is not a factor. A lot of people initially plan to keep a vehicle forever, but then a couple of years later there is a new vehicle in their driveway.
I agree with your logic. Your last statement was "If you keep it until it dies...". Even there, a well made vehicle is worth the initial price, because it "LIVES" longer!
Paisan,
When my wife compared resale on 2 year old models, it was with similar "Buying" prices, for us.
For instance, the CRV Honda vs the Tribute (Ford).
Equiped pretty much the same way, the Tribute list for a bit more. But I get an "X" plan from Ford. That allows me to buy at about "Invoice". Looking at Edmunds price info, you can see that the Tribute has about $1600-$1800 markup. My Honda dealer offered us a $500 discount on the CRV. Our "Buying" price was about the same. Yet the resale of a two year old model was in favor of the CRV by nearly $3000. Even though the 2001 CRV had a smaller, 2.0 liter, engine and less room than the 2003 models. The Tribute is virtually unchanged. Check for yourself. You may come up with different numbers.
True, that some of the options were a bit different. For instance, the CRV had a Sunroof, but not leather. The Tribute had leather, but no sun roof. We compared Apples to Apples, as closely as possible. They both have about the same capasities, and perform about the same. Acceleration and gas milage are in favor of the CRV. It has a 4 banger vs the Tributes 6 cylinder. The Tribute was rated to tow 3000 lbs, where the CRV is 1000, I think.
She did that with a number of vehicles, compared to the Honda products. Same results.
Virtually everyone we know (including us) with a 90s and up, Ford, Chevy or Chrysler product, have had automatic transmissions replaced at 60-70K miles. I'm sure there are exceptions, but we don't know them. To screw up with a design, is one thing. But to continue making something that is going to fail is not acceptable.
In fairness, my 78 chevy van is approaching 300,000 miles and is on the 2nd transmission. A friend has a 75 Ford van that went over 300,000 before a transmission rebuild.
They obviously know (knew) how to build a good transmission, but choose not to, now. Go to the Mazda Tribute Discussion forums and read about the recalls and transmission problems those folks are having.
Folks with Nissans, Hondas and Toyotas seem to fare much better. Honda Odysees had some tranny problems with the 2000 and 2001 models. But they extended the warranty (free)to 100,000 miles to those owners. They at least admit they have a problem and want to stick "With" their customers, rather than sticking it "TO" them.
I choose to go with the manufacturers that strive to build quality and longevity into their products.
I do strive, when possible to buy cars built in the USA. I think the Pilot is built in Canada, but they moved the Odysee to Alabama (or somewhere) to make room for Pilot production. I do wish to keep as many Americans working as possible. However it makes no difference to me whether the "Fat Cat" at the top, lives here or in Japan. I choose to do business with the Fat Cat that supplies me with a reliable product. Better resale is iceing on the cake.
Something else to comsider is safety. The Goverment does some simple test. The Insurance institute, does much tougher testing, because they have to pay claims. Tribute claims a 5 Star rating. That may be true in the Government test. But the people that pay claims show a slightly different picture. Which vehicle would you want your loved one in? http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/cecompoutc.asp Compare the Tribute and CRV.
Of Ford/DC/GM, just pointing out how crazy priced Honda/Toyotas have become.
Comparing a 30k Pilot and a 28-32k Explorer V8
Just curious if those are actual sale prices or what not? I'm thinking that if they are MSRPs, you can get an Explorer for significantly less (rebates, dealer incentives etc) v. Hondas that sell at or greater than MSRP.
-mike
PS: Comparing the Tribute and CRV are kinda hard cause you are doing V6 v. I4 which is a major factor in price. How does the I4 version of the Tribute compare to the CRV?
I know a loaded Eddie Bauer V8 like my brothers was about 40K sticker which he got for about 34k. That is why I figured a reasonably optioned Explorer V8 Eddie Bauer would sticker for 34-38k and sell for around 28-32k. More amenities than the Pilot, but sales price wise not significantly different.
It's so hard to compare stuff, I guess just go with what you like. I always opt for $/reliability/performance above all other criteria in my auto purchases.
Didn't compare the I4 Tribute. But I would think its' resale would be even worse %. I haven't seen one at a dealer. Possibly because nobody buys them. If it's not in demand, it won't resale well! Performance of the Tribute I4 would be considerably worse than the 6.
Performance wise, the 0-60 is slightly quicker for the CVR than the Tribute. Though not enough to seriously influence a buying decision. I believe that according to Edmunds Road test results, the CRV averaged 5-6 more miles per gallon. That isn't EPA ratings, but what they actually averaged during their testing. I think it was 21 for the CRV and 16 for the Tribute. Could be wrong!
For us, the slightly quicker acceleration, same usable room, better fuel milage, better resale, and better safety crash test, say the CRV is a better buy! That is probably what my wife will get!
Did ya go to the above web sight and compare crash test? Which one would you want your loved ones in?
I could have gotten about a $3000 discount on a $30K Exployer. I got $1400 discount on the Pilot.
I had a super salesman, that really worked for us to get the deal. So the Pilot cost us about $1600 more than the Explorer would have. I will get all that back at re-sale time. Plus have an equally safe, and more reliable vehicle, according to history. The new explorers may be the greatest thing to roll of the assembly line. But I believe in the old saying. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me"! To add to that--Fool me 3 times, I have a problem!
Anyone in the Atlanta Area that wants more info about my purchase experience on the Pilot, please send me an E-mail. Kipann@mindspring.com
I go by the real world #s. Tests are highly theoretical examples. For example CR claimed that the Isuzu Trooper Rolled over. Yet there was not 1 single incident reported of a rollover IN REAL LIFE, so I usually look for how people I know fared in accidents in similar vehicles or real world stats rather than some theoretical test.
Crash test, as the ones in above link, are conducted by the folks that pay the claims. Insurance companies keep incredible records on why they pay certain claims and how much it cost them. They use those numbers to adjust their rates.
CR, on the other hand, simply drive the cars and put them through their paces. They found that the Troupers actually lifted both wheels on one side, under certain conditions. Conditions that didn't cause similar vehicles to behave the same way. I can see why it would lead them to believe as they did. Isuzu denied it, but 2 years later, changed some things.
BTW, SUVs in general do roll over more than other passenger type vehicles. Higher ground clearance= higher center of gravity. Couple that with a fairly narrow track = a rollover looking for a place to happen. Explorer now sits a bit lower and is a bit wider tracked, to make them safer. Ford made those changes after the Explorer/Firestone thing came to light.
Of course other factors figure in, such as type of tires, type suspension, etc..
I don't recall anything being said concerning mini-van roll overs. As the pilot is built on an Odysee chassie, though a couple inches higher, I would think it quite safe, compaired to other SUVs. Although there is that sticker on the sunvisor, cautioning about rollovers, that the government mandates.
FWIW the Explorer and Pilot both have their wheels outbound to the edge og the bodies. The pilot is .5" lower to the ground and 5" wider than the Explorer. Leads me to believe it might tend to be less likely to roll!
You are correct, when driving a TRUCK you need to drive it in such a manner, it isn't a vette afterall. A lot of people drive them like a sports car though and that leads to problems.
Isuzu actually didn't change much. The only change was a 1/4" lower body mounts and 5mm wider offset on the rims starting in '98.
IIHS is funny, it's their business to help "protect" the insurance companies. I think they make out accidents to be worse than they actually are so that Insurance companies can charge more $$$$.
That slight change of lowering .25" and widening 5mm made enough difference to get CR off their backs.
Here is something interesting.
The Pilot is only .5 inches narrower than the Expedition. And it is .9" closer to the ground. So it is nearly as wide as the Expedition and sits lower than the Explorer.
Hopefull this will equate to a safer vehicle!
I feel sure that if pushed to the limits, differences would certainly appear. But in everyday driving, the Pilot SEEM to handle and corner as well as my wifes 95 Maxima SE. The Pilot definitely rides better and is quieter inside. On very tight curvy roads and switchbacks, the Maxima would be more stable. But I believe that when compaired to other same priced SUVs, the Pilot would need to make no apologies.
The 98 Dodge Ram Sport 1500, had a heavy duty package, but still required a bit more care in curves and fast manuvers. As you mentioned above.
Yet I seem to be able to see over other cars, just as well in the Pilot.
the explorer eddie bauer has an MSRP range of ~$34k-$41k, depending on options. a pilot ex-l is $30980. with same equipment(or as close as you can get), the explorer is around $36500. take off $2500 for negotiation ($3200 markup), and (temporary) $3000 rebate, and you are within $20. in price. you dont have to negotiate the pilot, which equates to a more seamless buying experience. with a 36 month residual, the pilot is at or near 57%, and the explorer closer to 43%. in actual dollars, that comes to around $17k depreciation for the explorer, and only about $12.5k for the pilot. (no calculator, so these #'s may be off by a couple hunskys) now you've gone from a $5500 sticker difference to a $4500 residual difference. thats a $10000 swing!!!
wow...you should do my taxes, maybe I would get something back this year!
This is similar to one of my arguments about MDX pricing...an accurate MSRP allows for easier sales, may even generate interest in a vehicle, than an over inflated MSRP which could turn potential buyers away...for example, my Isuzu Trooper's MSRP was something in the range of 32K, but I got mine for 24K. Big difference, but something you don't get by reading autoreviews.
The Pilot's MSRP may be right in line with its value and therefore buyers are attracted to it, which could potentially drive prices up.
The Eddie Bauer may cost the same up front, but it has loads more equipment than the Pilot EX-L.
Items such as compass, trailer hitch, full-size alloy spare, running boards, fog lights, power passenger seat, adjustable pedals, auto-dim mirror, and dual-zone auto climate control would add several thousand dollars to the price of the Pilot EX-L.
For a financial comparison, it's better to compare the Pilot EX-L to the Mercury Mountaineer "Convenience" model, since they are both very similarly equipped.
Mountaineer invoice is $30,524. Add $300 dealer profit and subtract $3000 rebate and you're out the door for about $27,800. Thats $3000 cheaper than a similarly equipped Pilot...if you can get it for MSRP.
Now, according to Edmunds "True Cost to Own," the Pilot depreciation is .63 over three years. This puts the Pilot at $30,980 X .63 = $19,520. Edmunds shows the Mountaineer depreciation at .55 over three years. This puts the Mountaineer at $33,660 X .55 = $18,510
This means that the Mountaineer costs about $2000 less than the Pilot over three years.
For the record, I'd pick the Honda over the Ford too, just not for financial reasons...
The difference is $1039. I did the .63 depreciation for the lower price of $27,916, rather than the higher price of $30,980 for the Pilot that you used.
You're probably going to respond by saying that invoice for the Pilot is hard to negotiate, while the rebates and invoice bargaining for the Mountaineer will be easier to accomplish (assuming that's the reason why you're using invoice for one and TMV for the other). While that may true, what you're doing is calculating the difference not on a individualistic approach, but rather on a generalized approach.
It's kind of unfair to factor in rebates and savings for the Mountaineer (you're assuming everyone who purchases one will be eligible for them) while assuming everyone else is paying MSRP+ for the Pilot...not everyone will qualify for the GM rebates and not everyone will pay MSRP+ for the Pilot, either.
Your assumptions about my assumptions are correct. In this case however, I believe that the "individualistic" approach and "generalized" approach are one and the same.
Most people who buy the Honda Pilot pay at least MSRP and most people who buy the Mountaineer pay close to invoice, and take the rebate. This is consistent with the business model of each company.
Both the second and third row seats recline. The third row not quite as much as the second. The third row also splits. Two of the many reasons that we bought the Pilot over the Explorer.
fedlawman - while it is true that a customer is more likely to qualify for the invoice and rebates on the Mountaineer, it is also true that there are people who can get Pilots for invoice pricing. The broad generalization you used puts the advantage towards the Mountaineer - that may be true for the most case, but I was just pointing out that it's not true for every single person, regardless of whether he/she buys a Mountaineer or a Pilot, and especially since Honda has increased capacity while the eligibility for the GM rebates has become more strict than it was when the program first started.
I appreciate the gas mileage discussion, very informative, and the explanation of octane was certainly thorough. It was thorough, but I didn't see an answer to the question - has anyone seen a mpg difference using premium versus regular (87 vs. 93) and what was the true answer to the question about doing damage to the pilot using premium. My Honda dealer said that is wrong, but then my experience with the dealer is that he doesn't know either.
Fair enough...I suppose the owner of a Honda dealership, for example, can buy a Pilot for invoice, huh?
Also, can you explain how a company (such as GM or Ford) can offer $3000 cash back and someone might not qualify? I thought if you buy the car, you get the rebate.
Just wanted to add a "thanks" to Kip and 427435 for the discussion on octane and compression. There are few posters here with the with the knowledge (or willpower) to engage in such a detailed review. While not your intent, those posts would serve as a good primer for a comparison of the VTEC and i-VTEC engines.
There are always flaws in tests like those conducted by the NHTSA and IIHS. However, the same can be said of the inadequate information provided by "real world" data. The most simple point could be that there is no significant data for 1st model-year vehicles. That doesn't make either data set useless, though.
For crash tests, I look for consistency. In the case of the CR-V and Tribute mentioned here, I happen to know that the CR-V has ranked at the top in IIHS, NHTSA, and Euro NCAP tests. The Tribute does well on the NHTSA test, but not the IIHS test. It has not been ranked on the Euro NCAP scale.
None of those tests are perfect or complete indicators. However, they do tell at least part of the story. I'll take a vehicle that is known to be a good performer in some aspects over one that is completely unknown or proven to be marginal in some.
This works with the rollover discussion, as well. The NHTSA rollover index is only a static measure and does not take into account many important factors. We can poke holes in it all day long, but it is part of the puzzle and that's better than a bad rating or no information at all. Given that the Pilot/MDX score well on this test, you have to give them the nod.
"Also, can you explain how a company (such as GM or Ford) can offer $3000 cash back and someone might not qualify? I thought if you buy the car, you get the rebate."
Absolutely. You see, before you buy a car, the dealerships usually ask a question such as "Have you ever filed for bankruptcy?" or "How long have you been employed at your current job?" or "What are your other monthly bills?"
So no, just because you buy the car doesn't automatically mean you qualify for (and thus receive) the rebates. It's the same thing as the 0% APR - if you don't qualify for it (bad credit history, previous bankruptcy filed, etc), they'll still sell you the car (if you still want to buy) but you're not going to get it at 0%.
I don't get it. If I went banko last year but am buying a car now (no financing w/ the dealer at issue), why would that prevent me from getting the cash rebate?
If you're financing through the dealer, 99% of the time you have to choose between the rebate or cheap financing. So if I bring my own financing to the table, the dealer has on business asking me about my debts, and I should get the rebate.
I can see no rebate or interest incentive if you can't afford to buy the car period, but you lost me on this one ....
If Ford issues a Customer rebate on one of their vehicles it is available to anyone who is financially capable of purchasing one. No special qualification is required for the rebate. However, to get the rebate, the buyer has to have the financial means to purchase the vehicle in the first place. Make sense?
Steve - if you listen to the voice over for the commercials (and if you can see the small enough print), it specifically says "offer available to qualified buyers." If GM is offering 0% APR...why would you need a bank? It's probably because you didn't qualify for the 0% APR.
I don't know if they're still doing it now, but GM was offering 0% APR and rebates - you didn't have to choose either/or. So if you didn't qualify for the 0% APR, I was under the assumption that you couldn't get the latter either, since it was a bundled package. I think Ford was also playing the same game.
toca - That's a given. But the newer rebates and incentives have more strict limitations on them than the first wave of 0% APR and such. But I thought that you were supposed to get the 0% APR as well as the rebates - only if you qualify for them. If you loan from a bank, would you still get the rebate? I thought they came as a whole, inseparable package. I could be wrong.
OK, I combed the web. I know Ford and GM were offering rebates + 0% (not either/or)...but none of the campaign press releases say that. So I guess they're doing the either/or thing, in which case you're correct, Steve.
Well, I actually have seen both rebates and financing incentives (probably not zero % though) at the same time on our incentives page. It's been a while and I don't remember the models any more.
So yeah, in that case if you didn't qualify for the financing, the rebate deal would change.
btw, I'm a reformed TV addict and no longer have to listen to those commercials or try to read the fine print scrolling across the bottom of the screen at 90 miles an hour :-)
When I have bargained for a car, I have gone in for the best price. Then I mention rebates and 0% financing, etc. They always tell me that with the price I got I can't get the other options. If I wanted to start at MSRP they would deduct the rebate and give me the financing. My experience is that actually "officially" getting those rebates is not possible, salespeople will never give them to you...but you can bargain below where the rebate would put you, and the salesperson will tell you that you are getting a better deal than the rebates...when in truth they are probably using them to do the deal anyway.
My wife's 95 Maxima is rated to use Premium, 92-93 octain. A while back we were preparing for a trip from Fayetteville Ga. (South of Atlanta, to Myrtle Beach SC.. It's about 400 miles.
She filled the car(from near empty) the night before. We keep a little "LOG" book in each vehicle, and put credit card receipts, from the gas pump, in the back of the book, for reference. The log book is for recording odometer readings, amount of fuel to refill and other useful or frivolous info! When we got near Myrtle Beach, we refilled. Coming back, we refilled again, at the same station, so as to have a full tank for the return trip.
Later I discovered that we got 26 MPG going and 28 mpg returning. We have made that trip many times, and usually get 1-2 more MPG going than returning. Something was wrong with that picture. We always top them off with as much fuel as they will hold. At the same pump,facing the same direction, if possible. "Creatures of habit".
The tank receipts gave the answer to the mystery. She had filled with "regular" before we left for the trip. We had filled with "Premium" while on the trip. Judging from past trips, and actual milage for that one, we got about 3-4 miles per gallon LESS with regular.
Keep in mind, that the Maxima is rated for Premium. With regular, the computer adjusts the timing when necessary, and regulates other stuff to keep down PINGING and other such.
A few months later, we made the same trip in our 98 Dodge ram. It is rated for Regular. I filled it with Premium going, to get that "Extra Mileage", and Regular, returning, for comparison. We got 18.6 going and 17.9 returning. As we usually get 1-2 better MPG going, there was NO advantage to using the Premium. I have filled the Ram from time to time with Premium, and noticed no difference in mileage over a couple weeks of everyday driving.
FWIW, most Shell stations have a neat little FREE pamphlet available to it's customers. That pamphet will tell you that it is a waste of money to buy Premium for Regular burning cars.
The Pilot manual suggest using Premium when Towing a trailer, over 3500 lbs. I believe that is because, trailer towing ( any heavy loads) can cause a bit higher tempts in the cylinders, which increases the chance of Detonation (Pinging). Premium helps keep that under control. Refer to 427435 posts on previous page!
Summary: I believe that putting Premium in a "Regular vehicle", does nothing, other than add cost. On the other hand, Putting regular in a "Premium Vehicle", can result in Pinging, expecially under full acceleration and towing. Over time, Pinging can and will, damage engine componants. Those mfg spend tons of $$ researching this stuff. I believe them and do as they suggest! Even if I decide to change my own oil, I use their recommendations to weight,and type of oil, and THEIR FILTERS!
FWIW: When shopping for this Pilot, we found that Ford was offering cash back, "OR" 0 percent financing. The "0" percent, depended on credit rating of the buyer. Seems that advertisements from GM and Dodge suggested both.
Before going to the dealers, I went to CarMax to see what they would PAY for my truck. I got a nice printed offer from them, of $10,000. Good for 7 days or 300 miles. Kelly Blue book (www.KBB.com) said my truck was worth $9350 trade, $11,300 buying from an individual, and $13,400 buying from a dealer. That's right, most dealers strive for a $3000-$4000 profit on late model used cars.
Keep in mind that Sales tax is only paid on the "difference", in Ga. Example: If I sold my truck and bought the Pilot, I would pay sales tax on the entire purchase price. Say 5% of $30,000 = $1500 sales tax. If I can get $10,000 trade in, I would pay sales tax on $20,000. So on an easily computated deal, I would have to sell the truck for $10,500 to break even, of trade vs selling/buying.
At a dealer, you are actually dealing with 2 people, until you get the general manager/owner involved. They are, the Used Car Manager and the New Car manager. The salesman is the messenger.
Note: If they only have 1 example of, say a Pilot, they won't be as eager to deal. Up front tell them you prefer another color, equipment, etc.. "DO you have any coming, in the next few days. How are they equiped". If they have some on the way, they will deal! If not, find a dealer that has some, on the lot, or coming! Without a doubt, the Honda dealers were the hardest to deal with.
First thing to do, is to establish a price for the new vehicle. If they ask about your trade, tell them you are interested in selling price for the NEW vehicle, only. You haven't decided if you are going to trade or sell.
It helps to take along a cooler of drinks and sandwiches!
Beforehand, establish the markup in that vehicle. And have a written offer on your old vehicle, if possible. Keep it hidden right now!
Another Note: All the Honda dealers I talked with, told me that they are allocated a certain number of vehicles. As they sell 1, it is replaced by Honda. To raise their allocation, they need to sell vehicles, quicker than other nearby Honda dealers. Keep that in mind, and Shop the last few days of the month.
OK, so you might have established that there is a $3000 markup. And, They have NO cashback or financing incentives. They probably have a dealer hold back of 2-3%. Edmunds can show you what you need to know about holdbacks and profits. If there is a $3000 profit margin and an additional $600-$900 holdback, you need to know that. The dealer will LIE to you about such things.
Make the best BUY deal you feel is reasonable, that you can live with. Example, you would "Like" to buy it below cost. But you know that ain't gonna happen right now, so you secretly "HOPE" for a $1500 discount on a Pilot.
They stand firm by a $500 discount. Thank em and get up to leave. Pick up your ice chest, and tell them you want to think about it for a couple of days. That will put your decision into the next month. They want to sell a vehicle "This" month. They want to show the profits and hopefull raise their allocation for that vehicle. Remain polite and firm. They will feed you sob stories about their expenses of burning lights, making parole, etc.. Tell em you understand, but those lights will burn whether you buy or not! They might burn a little longer, if you buy and do all your service work there, and send them friends and family members! As time goes on and dealers are alloted more Pilots, I feel sure that deals will get better. But nearly $1500 discount was the best I could do in the Atlanta area. That included Internet Dealers.
When you have worn them down to a resonable price. It is time to deal on the trade.
They offered me $7000 for my truck. Probably trying to get that discount back. I asked to see the appraisers work sheet. They side stepped that, by asking, "Well, what do you expect to get for your truck?" I told them $11,500! (Why should I sound reasonable, when they were trying to rob me?}
I let em BEAT me down to $10,000. They were now offering $9K. By now we are in the owner's office. He was very plesant and very professional. He said that they simply could not put more into a vehicle than they figured they could get at the auction for it. They would try to sell it on the lot, but with the domestics offering the cashbacks and/or "0" percent,that might take a while. I told him I had been offered $10k by a dealer, straight sale. He said, "OK, if you can show me proof that a reasonable dealer offered you $10k for your truck, we will allow you $9500. With the sales tax you won't have to pay, you will have your $10K." He smiled! I smiled! I gave him the CarMax offer and said,"DEAL".
He looked at the paper and laughed out loud. "Deal"!
Was it the best deal, I ever made? NO!
I wanted a new Pilot now, I didn't want to mess with cleaning the truck up, advertising, and fooling with potential buyers, in this market and weather. Maybe I could have gotten the KBB $11,300 for the truck, maybe not.
I could have gotten a better deal on a domestic, probably. I drove em all, researched em all, looked at safety ratings, reliability history, and resale for those we were interested in.
The Pilot was what we wanted, and the Pilot is what we got. Reasonable deal considering all.
Several days later, a guy called me that was purchasing my trade in. He just wanted to make sure everything was "as represented". He was paying $10,900 drive out, including tax, title, etc!
Comments
"it lacked a rear window".
All the Pilots I've seen have had rear windows. Therefore I feel that you must have meant an "Opening" rear window. I agree that it should have been an option.
"It lacked fog lights which were not available."
Fog lights are an availabe dealer option.
"But it lacked more than most SUV's in its size."
Lacked more of what?
"Its roof rack did not have standard beams like the other SUV's we checked. They were optional."
Yes they are optional. If I don't like their looks and/or can't see a need for them on our Pilot, I don't have to pay for them. Same with fog lights, DVD Player, cargo cover, or any other option offered. "Standard features" are not free. They are ALL figured into the bottom line. If you don't want them or don't like them, you pay for them anyway.
Over on the Nissan Murano Forum, the guys are complaining about having to get complete packages to get 1 item that they want. Honda sees fit to offer seperate items. If we want all the items, we can order all of them. If we want just a few, same thing.
"Also, while the front and second row seats were real leather, the 3rd row seat appeared to be some cheap imitation."
A good grade of Vinyl (SP) will outlast most factory automobile grade leather. It doesn't absorb moisture, more resistant to stains, and is just as puncture resistant. Motorcycles and boats stopped using leather, years ago. Why? Quality vinyl is less expensive and last longer. It is ideal where baby bottles and/or kid stains and spills are likely to occur. That 3rd row seat is not large enough for comfortable adult seating. Most likely kids/babies will be back there. Spilling stuff! Honda could have put leather on those 3rd row seating surfaces, at a higher price. Or they can have leather installed on them for you. Or you can get it done at an upholstery shop.
You might also find that vinyl, makes up most of the "LEATHER LOOK" of most vehicles. Generally speaking, with the exception of a few really Luxury Vehicles, the leather is Only on the "Seating Surfaces". The seat bolsters, seat backs, door panel, dash, and so forth are actually a high quality vinyl.
Notice the auto ads. They used to say leather seats. Now they mostly say, leather seating surfaces.
"It also lacked a shiftable 4th gear to fully match its 5-speed automatic transmission."
That bothered me before we bought ours. Several other Posters mentioned this. However, after putting a few hundred miles on ours, it is no longer a concern. A shiftable forth gear would be of little use on the Pilot. Other than adding more $$ to the price. After spending some time in various SUVs, with 6 cylinders, we found that the ones with 4 speed autos are turning about the same RPM at a given speed as the Pilot does in its 4th gear. With the Pilots overall gear ratio, it's 5th gear is kind of a super overdrive. In D3 the pilot turns about the same RPM as a 4 speed does with OD locked out. They are both in 3rd gear, right?
In DR3, the Pilot turns about the same RPM as my friends Cherokee (6 cylinder)) when OD is locked out. About 3200 at 60mph. My Dodge Ram, with 5.9 V8 engine, turned about 2800 with the OD locked out. A Little more or less! Locking the Pilot in 4th would do little for compression braking, and little for towing. I've noticed that our Pilot does not spend any time searching between 5th and 4th. If it needs 4th, it "Seemlessly" goes there and stays until the need is gone, (topping a hill) and goes back to 5th. It seems to really "THINK" about 5th gear before going there. It is really not noticable unless I'm watching the tach. It doesn't shift back and forth between 4th and 5th while on that hill. If it drops to 4th, it is committed.
"The EX does come standard with both cassette and CD. The LX is not available with cassette. Let's face it. Most of us still have cassettes as well as CD's. But I can not see paying the EX price for that!
The EX includes a few more items than just the Cassette player.
"Also, the LX is not available with at least a power driver's side seat".
That is another "Standard" feature of the "Higher" priced EX.
Pilot does not offer a power front passenger seat, as some have mentioned. In the 48 years that I've been driving, I believe I have never had a passenger remark that they wished I had a Power Pasenger seat. They get in, adjust fore/aft, adjust seat back angle. And "SEEM" happy. The passenger has no need to situate between steering wheel and pedals, like the driver does. Their chairs at work and home are most likely not 8 way powered. Yet they somehow get comfortable and sit in them for many hours a day.
"My suggestion is to hold off on buying a 2003 and see if the 2004's are improved."
I agree with another poster. Chances are good that the 2004 will be exactly like the 2003.
We spent countless hours on the internet, at dealers, talking with owners, and driving every Suv available to us. Dollar for dollar, feature for feature, ride for ride, handling for handling, the Pilot seemed to be the best value, for us.
One last thing. We went to Kelly Blue Book, and did comparison used car values on 2 year old Hondas vs other similar vehicles with similar MSRP. As this is Pilots 1st year, we could not use it, but we did use the CVR and Odysse.
Here is an example:
CRV EX vs Tribute ES (I think). Same MSRP. 2001 models of each with 20K miles. The CRV is worth about $3000 more than the Tribute. My wife was doing this, and I don't remember if she was looking at Trade value or Retail value. The difference in an Odysse and other mini vans was scary! I would think the Pilots value would hold up as well!
Thanks'
Kip
The initial timing also has little to do with whether an engine should burn premium or regular. What counts is total timing, initial plus centrifugal. My premium burning, 11:1 compression Corvette has an intial timing of 5 degrees.
The fall-off in winter (cold weather) mileage is caused mostly by the engine using more fuel to come up to and stay at operating temperature. Rolling friction is also higher when a vehicle's oil and seals are cold. Also, the winter blends may contain fuels (including some alcohol) that have lower BTU (or energy) per gallon. However, 40 years ago when I first started driving and keeping track of every gallon of fuel that went through my vehicles, I also saw the same fall-off in fuel economy. And that was long before EPA and all the special blends they now require.
Hope this clears up some mis-information.
"The burn rate between regular and premium is not significantly different. The gas/air mixture in a cylinder does not "explode" but rather burns away from the spark plug-----normally."
What is the main difference between an explosion and an incredibly fast burn? The type of burn that has to happen in an engine? Example: We light the fuse to a firecracker. The "Burning" fuse (ignition source)lights off the internal powder at one end. The "Burning" spreads through the rest of the powder at a very fast rate, creating preasure. It has nowhere to send the preasure, so it blows away the weakest part of its' containment. Isn't this what is considered to be an explosion? In principle, how is that different from a spark plug igniting fuel in a cylinder. Fuel ignites, preasure builds, so one side of it's case, the piston, gets blown away, down the cylinder. Either of those fuels, without containment, poured on an open area, don't "Explode" when lit, they just burn.
"However, given a high enough temperature and enough pressure, the gas/air mixture will "explode"."
That is my contention! If the spark happens too soon. The preasure building from the igniting fuel, is trying to go somewhere. Normally it follows (pushes) the piston into the cylinder. However, If the piston is still coming up on its compression stroke, that preasure attempts to push the piston backward, while the crank is pushing it upward, thus increasing the preasure even more. Resulting in noise, clatter, pinging and slamming of the piston that is in an upward mode. Kind of like putting the transmission in reverse while going forward. Changing direction of those moving drive axels will make some unwanted noises.
"This is the "pinging" sound you can hear under the right conditions. The lead additive (actually, tetraethyl lead, which is where the term "Ethyl" came from for premium fuel), through a chemical reaction, increases the amount of temperature and pressure that is required to cause a premium fuel to "explode". It has no effect on rings nor mileage in an engine designed for regular fuels."
That I understand! Putting premium in a "Regular engine" , does little more than add extra cost.
I guess, where I'm having the most trouble understanding is where you said:
"through a chemical reaction, increases the amount of temperature and pressure that is required to cause a premium fuel to "explode"."
What is the definition of that explosion? How is it different from the combustion that normally take place in a cylinder. Other than ignition source of high temps vs spark?
If you added an ingredient to seriously slow down the burn rate of the powder inside a fire cracker, would it still pop (explode)? Or would it just Phizzzzz?
If you take an engine designed for, say 6% initial advance, and increase that to 12% you will most likely get ping. Yet you have not mechanically increased the temperature or preasure. The preasure built 6% too soon in an overly large combustion chamber, because the piston wasn't there yet. Suddenly the piston is trying to get into that space. There is way more preasure here than desired. The piston "HITS" excessive increasing resistance. Could that cause a noise, similiar to slapping water with your hand? The piston continues toward the top of its travel. Increasing the preasure, friction, and heat. Could this cause a secondary reaction?
"The initial timing also has little to do with whether an engine should burn premium or regular. What counts is total timing, initial plus centrifugal. My premium burning, 11:1 compression Corvette has an intial timing of 5 degrees."
That is MOSTLY true with modern engines, especially those with electronic controlled ignitions. Even more so with todays computer controlled timing, with their built in knock sensors and such.
Your Vette requires a 5 degree initial timing with the advance set up of your timing management system. For best performance, if you change most anything about that timing managament system, it will necessitate a change in initial timing.
My last car, with computer controlled timing, required initial timing to be set at Top Dead Center (TDC). That is 5 degrees retarded from your Vette setting. It burned "Regular". In this particular case, the premium fuel still allows a greater initial advance than regular.
I just believe that if you disconnect your knock sensor and advance your timing to 10% you will experience knocking, pinging, even though you did not mechanically increase temp or compression.
Any further discussion and help would be most appreciated. I kinda believe that our individual definitions of Explosion is the key to this thing.
I believe the additive in Premium fuels serves to slow down and lenthen the burn rate. I THINK you are saying, it simply increases its' resistance to temp and preasure, but does not effect burn rate.
Thanks,
Kip
One produces a shockwave and the other one doesn't. I think the shockwave itself is responsible (through compression at the shock front) for igniting the fuel as it propagates whereas, in ordinary burning, fuel is ignited by direct heating.
I'm sure 427... will elaborate.
tidester, host
http://www.howstuffworks.com/gasoline3.htm
The Ford Explorer (more of a direct comparison) also has vinyl 3rd row seats when you select leather interior as an option.
I'm pleased with the quality of the fake leather in the 3rd row of my pilot. I'm sure it was a cost savings measure but it is also functional for what I use the 3rd row for.
The next series of pictures, everything is the same except the compression has been raised. The spark occurs, the flame front advances some, and then the balance of the unburned fuel/air mixture explodes. That is, in one frame, the cylinder goes from partly white (burned fuel) and partly dark (unburned fuel) to completely white. That very sudden and rapid pressure spike is the "ping" and it's the sound of the explosion reverberating through the engine that you hear. It was caused by the combination of the higher compression and the increasing cylinder pressure as the flame front advanced.
The trick in getting the maximum hp (in very general terms) is to develop as much pressure as you can before top dead center (TDC) without getting into detonation and then having enough compression ratio, which is really a ratio of expansion volume to TDC volume, to take advantage of the higher TDC volume. Without the compression ratio (expansion volume), the high TDC pressure just results in higher end gas pressure that is wasted to atmosphere when the exhaust valve opens.
As was stated in article on the web site posted above, premium fuel takes more pressure (at a given temperature) to self-ignite than regular fuel. Think about diesel engines. There are no spark plugs and they depend on compression pressure to ignite their air/fuel mixture. When the pressure (and temperature) are high enough, the charge pretty well fires at once (explodes) and thus the continuous diesel "rattle". The diesel compression ratios also start out in the high-teens and go to the low-twenties---which means they have lots of expansion volume to make full use of their peak pressures and they thus provide better fuel economy.
Yes, you can take a regular fuel engine, advance the timing a few degrees, and avoid pinging/detonation by then using premium fuel. You won't get much horsepower gain, however, as the engine doesn't have the higher compression to take advantage of the higher TDC pressure before, again, the exhaust valve opens and lets the end pressure out----which can lead to another very long discussion that I'm not really prepared to get into.
I hope this helps a little. In short, use the gas the engine manufacturer calls for---unless you start hearing some pinging (which really isn't good for an engine despite what some dealers will tell you). With today's very lean engines, tuned for economy, you may need to go up a grade in gasoline after miles and carbon have built up. Some Ford engines in particular have struggled with this.
Oh yes, my old Corvette (1967) doesn't have knock sensors or much else-----except horsepower!!!
The Pilot looked like a reasonable alternative and we took one for a test drive. It was quiet, it rode and handled well (for an SUV), and it was rated for (I think) 21 mpg. Dealer's here in Minnesota wanted list price and, once you picked an exterior color, there was no choice on the interior color. And of course you went on a wait list.
On a whim, I and my wife took a 2003 Explorer for a test drive. It was an Eddie Bauer version with the 4.6 V-8. It rode and handled as well as the Pilot (for our tastes, anyway). The new, in 2002, frame, front suspension and independent rear suspension on the Explorer really are big improvements over the older ones. The V-8 and 5 speed automatic really felt strong. One can even get at the spark plugs on the engine.
Started talking pricing, and, with rebates and hungrier dealers, there was less than $1000 difference between the loaded Eddie Bauer Explorer and a Pilot with leather, the dealer installed tow package, CD changer etc. The Explorer has a 5000 lb tow rating, the "magic" of a V-8 and a much more substantial feel to it. It also has a 4WD low range, which I don't remember the Pilot having. We did give up 1 mpg but it does weigh about 1000 lbs more. Oh yes, the Explorer had heated leather seats (a very big deal to my wife) and the Pilot did not.
Anyway, that's what we bought and my wife loves it!! I was just cleaning out my "favorites" site and thought I would share---plus I couldn't help but get into the "Octane" discussion.
I do remain impressed with the Pilot, but the supply needs to catch up with the demand, there needs to be some more choices on colors, both inside and out, and they need to heat their leather seats here in Minnesota!!
Cheers!!
"The trick in getting the maximum hp (in very general terms) is to develop as much pressure as you can before top dead center (TDC) without getting into detonation and then having enough compression ratio, which is really a ratio of expansion volume to TDC volume, to take advantage of the higher TDC volume."
The last phrase should have been "to take advantage of the higher TDC pressure."
Explorer vs Pilot
I went back and checked the prices without some of the options that were on the Explorer that we bought that you can't get on the Pilot (backup sensor, auxillary rear air and heater, factory moonroof, etc.) and you can actually buy an Eddie Bauer Explorer for less than a Pilot with similar equipment. The Pilot, in addition to the none heated leather seats, also won't have a power passenger seat and a 2 position memory driver's seat. Of course, you'll see a lot more of the
Explorers on the road----and maybe the above is why.
The Pilot is 22 Hwy 17 City.
Not 1 MPG but 3 MPG.
Also curb weights are almost identical at 4500 lbs.
I have a Pilot and my brother has the V8 Explorer. We get 18 in mixed driving he gets 13-14. Percentage wise very significant.
I like the Explorer and all its options, but the Pilot is much more refined. The main advantage though RESALE!
just hope you don't have the same problems as this person did........
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/kayakkeith/trouble.html
But you pay for that extra re-sale value in the initial purpose, so it negates the benefit, also what if you keep it for a long time? Then the re-sale is not really an issue.
-mike
Your mentioning your 67 Vette caused a "flashback"
here.
In late '64 I ordered a new Pontiac GTO. Red w/Black Vinyl Bucket seats. 389 w/3 duces, 4 in floor, red stripe tiger paw tires. No air, no PS, no PB. I wanted a Vette, but could not afford the extra $1000-$1500, as I remember. Paid $3200 for the GTO. Ain't hindsight wonderful?? If I had only known then, what I know now, I would be a rich man.
Speaking of gas, I remenber "Gas Wars" in the early 60's, and paying 14.9 cents for regular and just slightly more for Ethyl. Seems like it was somewhere in the early to mid '60s that Gulf came out with a Purple Colored gas, with 93 octain.
Things were so simple back then. Replace the TWO mufflers, replace the card main jets (15 minutes), bump the timing a bit, and be ready to rock and roll!
Every section of town had a nearby road with a marked 1/4 mile section, perfect for drag racing.
Chevy fans could buy a Genuine "DUNTOF" (SP) cam from the Chevy dealer, for $18-$30, depending if he could get it for "Garage" price, or had to pay retail. Those cams sure created a sweet sounding "LOPE"!
A guy on a budget, doing his own work, could have the heads milled, install the cam,lifters, and springs, chevy P/U mufflers (or glass packs), re-jet the carb, bump the timing, and use Ethyl. All for about $200.
I agree about the new Explorers, driving nice, and getting a lot for the money. It was certainly one of our considerations.
We declined, mainly due to it's past history of problems. A friend works for Fred Jones, Ford's Remanufacturer. He said they had a backlog of Explorer, and small P/U auto tranies. There were permenate "fixes" for the problems, but Ford would not allow them to use anything other than Genuine Ford Parts. So the "Remaned" ones were no better than the original. Destined to fail! Hopefully these new 5 speeds will be stronger and trouble free.
We bought the Pilot, based on Honda's record of reliability and resale value. Realizing it is a new product, bother my wife somewhat. But, I explained that it't mechanical design is already proven with the Acura MDX. Sure hope that to be true! I bought an extended warranty, just in case!
Thanks,
Kip
If you keep it till it dies then resale is not a factor. A lot of people initially plan to keep a vehicle forever, but then a couple of years later there is a new vehicle in their driveway.
Paisan,
When my wife compared resale on 2 year old models, it was with similar "Buying" prices, for us.
For instance, the CRV Honda vs the Tribute (Ford).
Equiped pretty much the same way, the Tribute list for a bit more. But I get an "X" plan from Ford. That allows me to buy at about "Invoice". Looking at Edmunds price info, you can see that the Tribute has about $1600-$1800 markup. My Honda dealer offered us a $500 discount on the CRV. Our "Buying" price was about the same. Yet the resale of a two year old model was in favor of the CRV by nearly $3000. Even though the 2001 CRV had a smaller, 2.0 liter, engine and less room than the 2003 models. The Tribute is virtually unchanged. Check for yourself. You may come up with different numbers.
True, that some of the options were a bit different. For instance, the CRV had a Sunroof, but not leather. The Tribute had leather, but no sun roof. We compared Apples to Apples, as closely as possible. They both have about the same capasities, and perform about the same. Acceleration and gas milage are in favor of the CRV. It has a 4 banger vs the Tributes 6 cylinder. The Tribute was rated to tow 3000 lbs, where the CRV is 1000, I think.
She did that with a number of vehicles, compared to the Honda products. Same results.
Virtually everyone we know (including us) with a 90s and up, Ford, Chevy or Chrysler product, have had automatic transmissions replaced at 60-70K miles. I'm sure there are exceptions, but we don't know them. To screw up with a design, is one thing. But to continue making something that is going to fail is not acceptable.
In fairness, my 78 chevy van is approaching 300,000 miles and is on the 2nd transmission. A friend has a 75 Ford van that went over 300,000 before a transmission rebuild.
They obviously know (knew) how to build a good transmission, but choose not to, now. Go to the Mazda Tribute Discussion forums and read about the recalls and transmission problems those folks are having.
Folks with Nissans, Hondas and Toyotas seem to fare much better. Honda Odysees had some tranny problems with the 2000 and 2001 models. But they extended the warranty (free)to 100,000 miles to those owners. They at least admit they have a problem and want to stick "With" their customers, rather than sticking it "TO" them.
I choose to go with the manufacturers that strive to build quality and longevity into their products.
I do strive, when possible to buy cars built in the USA. I think the Pilot is built in Canada, but they moved the Odysee to Alabama (or somewhere) to make room for Pilot production. I do wish to keep as many Americans working as possible. However it makes no difference to me whether the "Fat Cat" at the top, lives here or in Japan. I choose to do business with the Fat Cat that supplies me with a reliable product. Better resale is iceing on the cake.
Something else to comsider is safety. The Goverment does some simple test. The Insurance institute, does much tougher testing, because they have to pay claims. Tribute claims a 5 Star rating. That may be true in the Government test. But the people that pay claims show a slightly different picture. Which vehicle would you want your loved one in?
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/cecompoutc.asp
Compare the Tribute and CRV.
Your milage may vary!
Thanks,
Kip
Comparing a 30k Pilot and a 28-32k Explorer V8
Just curious if those are actual sale prices or what not? I'm thinking that if they are MSRPs, you can get an Explorer for significantly less (rebates, dealer incentives etc) v. Hondas that sell at or greater than MSRP.
-mike
PS: Comparing the Tribute and CRV are kinda hard cause you are doing V6 v. I4 which is a major factor in price. How does the I4 version of the Tribute compare to the CRV?
-mike
Performance of the Tribute I4 would be considerably worse than the 6.
Performance wise, the 0-60 is slightly quicker for the CVR than the Tribute. Though not enough to seriously influence a buying decision. I believe that according to Edmunds Road test results, the CRV averaged 5-6 more miles per gallon. That isn't EPA ratings, but what they actually averaged during their testing. I think it was 21 for the CRV and 16 for the Tribute. Could be wrong!
For us, the slightly quicker acceleration, same usable room, better fuel milage, better resale, and better safety crash test, say the CRV is a better buy! That is probably what my wife will get!
Did ya go to the above web sight and compare crash test? Which one would you want your loved ones in?
I could have gotten about a $3000 discount on a $30K Exployer. I got $1400 discount on the Pilot.
I had a super salesman, that really worked for us to get the deal. So the Pilot cost us about $1600 more than the Explorer would have. I will get all that back at re-sale time. Plus have an equally safe, and more reliable vehicle, according to history.
The new explorers may be the greatest thing to roll of the assembly line. But I believe in the old saying. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me"! To add to that--Fool me 3 times, I have a problem!
Anyone in the Atlanta Area that wants more info about my purchase experience on the Pilot, please send me an E-mail. Kipann@mindspring.com
Thanks,
Kip
-mike
Crash test, as the ones in above link, are conducted by the folks that pay the claims. Insurance companies keep incredible records on why they pay certain claims and how much it cost them. They use those numbers to adjust their rates.
CR, on the other hand, simply drive the cars and put them through their paces. They found that the Troupers actually lifted both wheels on one side, under certain conditions. Conditions that didn't cause similar vehicles to behave the same way. I can see why it would lead them to believe as they did. Isuzu denied it, but 2 years later, changed some things.
BTW, SUVs in general do roll over more than other passenger type vehicles. Higher ground clearance= higher center of gravity. Couple that with a fairly narrow track = a rollover looking for a place to happen. Explorer now sits a bit lower and is a bit wider tracked, to make them safer.
Ford made those changes after the Explorer/Firestone thing came to light.
Of course other factors figure in, such as type of tires, type suspension, etc..
I don't recall anything being said concerning mini-van roll overs. As the pilot is built on an Odysee chassie, though a couple inches higher, I would think it quite safe, compaired to other SUVs. Although there is that sticker on the sunvisor, cautioning about rollovers, that the government mandates.
FWIW the Explorer and Pilot both have their wheels outbound to the edge og the bodies. The pilot is .5" lower to the ground and 5" wider than the Explorer. Leads me to believe it might tend to be less likely to roll!
Kip
Isuzu actually didn't change much. The only change was a 1/4" lower body mounts and 5mm wider offset on the rims starting in '98.
IIHS is funny, it's their business to help "protect" the insurance companies. I think they make out accidents to be worse than they actually are so that Insurance companies can charge more $$$$.
-mike
Here is something interesting.
The Pilot is only .5 inches narrower than the Expedition. And it is .9" closer to the ground. So it is nearly as wide as the Expedition and sits lower than the Explorer.
Hopefull this will equate to a safer vehicle!
I feel sure that if pushed to the limits, differences would certainly appear. But in everyday driving, the Pilot SEEM to handle and corner as well as my wifes 95 Maxima SE. The Pilot definitely rides better and is quieter inside. On very tight curvy roads and switchbacks, the Maxima would be more stable. But I believe that when compaired to other same priced SUVs, the Pilot would need to make no apologies.
The 98 Dodge Ram Sport 1500, had a heavy duty package, but still required a bit more care in curves and fast manuvers. As you mentioned above.
Yet I seem to be able to see over other cars, just as well in the Pilot.
Might just keep this guy a while!
Kip
The Pilot is a great vehicle for what most people use their "suv"s for.
-mike
This is similar to one of my arguments about MDX pricing...an accurate MSRP allows for easier sales, may even generate interest in a vehicle, than an over inflated MSRP which could turn potential buyers away...for example, my Isuzu Trooper's MSRP was something in the range of 32K, but I got mine for 24K. Big difference, but something you don't get by reading autoreviews.
The Pilot's MSRP may be right in line with its value and therefore buyers are attracted to it, which could potentially drive prices up.
Items such as compass, trailer hitch, full-size alloy spare, running boards, fog lights, power passenger seat, adjustable pedals, auto-dim mirror, and dual-zone auto climate control would add several thousand dollars to the price of the Pilot EX-L.
For a financial comparison, it's better to compare the Pilot EX-L to the Mercury Mountaineer "Convenience" model, since they are both very similarly equipped.
Mountaineer invoice is $30,524. Add $300 dealer profit and subtract $3000 rebate and you're out the door for about $27,800. Thats $3000 cheaper than a similarly equipped Pilot...if you can get it for MSRP.
Now, according to Edmunds "True Cost to Own," the Pilot depreciation is .63 over three years. This puts the Pilot at $30,980 X .63 = $19,520.
Edmunds shows the Mountaineer depreciation at .55 over three years. This puts the Mountaineer at $33,660 X .55 = $18,510
This means that the Mountaineer costs about $2000 less than the Pilot over three years.
For the record, I'd pick the Honda over the Ford too, just not for financial reasons...
Are you subtracting the resale values of the two cars? If so, I got a difference of $1010, not $2000.
Pilot: $30,980-19,520=$11,460
Mountaineer: $27,800-18,510=$9290
The Pilot costs $2170 more than the Mountaineer. With 8.5% sales tax thrown into the equation, make it $2500. YMMV.
Pilot: $27,916-17,587=$10329
Mountaineer: $27,800-18,510=$9290
The difference is $1039. I did the .63 depreciation for the lower price of $27,916, rather than the higher price of $30,980 for the Pilot that you used.
You're probably going to respond by saying that invoice for the Pilot is hard to negotiate, while the rebates and invoice bargaining for the Mountaineer will be easier to accomplish (assuming that's the reason why you're using invoice for one and TMV for the other). While that may true, what you're doing is calculating the difference not on a individualistic approach, but rather on a generalized approach.
It's kind of unfair to factor in rebates and savings for the Mountaineer (you're assuming everyone who purchases one will be eligible for them) while assuming everyone else is paying MSRP+ for the Pilot...not everyone will qualify for the GM rebates and not everyone will pay MSRP+ for the Pilot, either.
Most people who buy the Honda Pilot pay at least MSRP and most people who buy the Mountaineer pay close to invoice, and take the rebate. This is consistent with the business model of each company.
I don't think there is much room for debate here.
Thanks.
Also, can you explain how a company (such as GM or Ford) can offer $3000 cash back and someone might not qualify? I thought if you buy the car, you get the rebate.
Good luck to both of you with your vehicles.
For crash tests, I look for consistency. In the case of the CR-V and Tribute mentioned here, I happen to know that the CR-V has ranked at the top in IIHS, NHTSA, and Euro NCAP tests. The Tribute does well on the NHTSA test, but not the IIHS test. It has not been ranked on the Euro NCAP scale.
None of those tests are perfect or complete indicators. However, they do tell at least part of the story. I'll take a vehicle that is known to be a good performer in some aspects over one that is completely unknown or proven to be marginal in some.
This works with the rollover discussion, as well. The NHTSA rollover index is only a static measure and does not take into account many important factors. We can poke holes in it all day long, but it is part of the puzzle and that's better than a bad rating or no information at all. Given that the Pilot/MDX score well on this test, you have to give them the nod.
Absolutely. You see, before you buy a car, the dealerships usually ask a question such as "Have you ever filed for bankruptcy?" or "How long have you been employed at your current job?" or "What are your other monthly bills?"
So no, just because you buy the car doesn't automatically mean you qualify for (and thus receive) the rebates. It's the same thing as the 0% APR - if you don't qualify for it (bad credit history, previous bankruptcy filed, etc), they'll still sell you the car (if you still want to buy) but you're not going to get it at 0%.
If you're financing through the dealer, 99% of the time you have to choose between the rebate or cheap financing. So if I bring my own financing to the table, the dealer has on business asking me about my debts, and I should get the rebate.
I can see no rebate or interest incentive if you can't afford to buy the car period, but you lost me on this one ....
Steve, Host
I don't know if they're still doing it now, but GM was offering 0% APR and rebates - you didn't have to choose either/or. So if you didn't qualify for the 0% APR, I was under the assumption that you couldn't get the latter either, since it was a bundled package. I think Ford was also playing the same game.
So yeah, in that case if you didn't qualify for the financing, the rebate deal would change.
btw, I'm a reformed TV addict and no longer have to listen to those commercials or try to read the fine print scrolling across the bottom of the screen at 90 miles an hour :-)
Steve, Host
My wife's 95 Maxima is rated to use Premium, 92-93 octain. A while back we were preparing for a trip from Fayetteville Ga. (South of Atlanta, to Myrtle Beach SC.. It's about 400 miles.
She filled the car(from near empty) the night before. We keep a little "LOG" book in each vehicle, and put credit card receipts, from the gas pump, in the back of the book, for reference. The log book is for recording odometer readings, amount of fuel to refill and other useful or frivolous info! When we got near Myrtle Beach, we refilled. Coming back, we refilled again, at the same station, so as to have a full tank for the return trip.
Later I discovered that we got 26 MPG going and 28 mpg returning. We have made that trip many times, and usually get 1-2 more MPG going than returning. Something was wrong with that picture. We always top them off with as much fuel as they will hold. At the same pump,facing the same direction, if possible. "Creatures of habit".
The tank receipts gave the answer to the mystery. She had filled with "regular" before we left for the trip. We had filled with "Premium" while on the trip. Judging from past trips, and actual milage for that one, we got about 3-4 miles per gallon LESS with regular.
Keep in mind, that the Maxima is rated for Premium. With regular, the computer adjusts the timing when necessary, and regulates other stuff to keep down PINGING and other such.
A few months later, we made the same trip in our 98 Dodge ram. It is rated for Regular. I filled it with Premium going, to get that "Extra Mileage", and Regular, returning, for comparison. We got 18.6 going and 17.9 returning. As we usually get 1-2 better MPG going, there was NO advantage to using the Premium. I have filled the Ram from time to time with Premium, and noticed no difference in mileage over a couple weeks of everyday driving.
FWIW, most Shell stations have a neat little FREE pamphlet available to it's customers. That pamphet will tell you that it is a waste of money to buy Premium for Regular burning cars.
The Pilot manual suggest using Premium when Towing a trailer, over 3500 lbs. I believe that is because, trailer towing ( any heavy loads) can cause a bit higher tempts in the cylinders, which increases the chance of Detonation (Pinging). Premium helps keep that under control. Refer to 427435 posts on previous page!
Summary: I believe that putting Premium in a "Regular vehicle", does nothing, other than add cost. On the other hand, Putting regular in a "Premium Vehicle", can result in Pinging, expecially under full acceleration and towing. Over time, Pinging can and will, damage engine componants. Those mfg spend tons of $$ researching this stuff. I believe them and do as they suggest! Even if I decide to change my own oil, I use their recommendations to weight,and type of oil, and THEIR FILTERS!
Thanks,
Kip
Before going to the dealers, I went to CarMax to see what they would PAY for my truck. I got a nice printed offer from them, of $10,000. Good for 7 days or 300 miles. Kelly Blue book (www.KBB.com) said my truck was worth $9350 trade, $11,300 buying from an individual, and $13,400 buying from a dealer.
That's right, most dealers strive for a $3000-$4000 profit on late model used cars.
Keep in mind that Sales tax is only paid on the "difference", in Ga. Example: If I sold my truck and bought the Pilot, I would pay sales tax on the entire purchase price. Say 5% of $30,000 = $1500 sales tax. If I can get $10,000 trade in, I would pay sales tax on $20,000. So on an easily computated deal, I would have to sell the truck for $10,500 to break even, of trade vs selling/buying.
At a dealer, you are actually dealing with 2 people, until you get the general manager/owner involved. They are, the Used Car Manager and the New Car manager. The salesman is the messenger.
Note: If they only have 1 example of, say a Pilot, they won't be as eager to deal. Up front tell them you prefer another color, equipment, etc.. "DO you have any coming, in the next few days. How are they equiped". If they have some on the way, they will deal! If not, find a dealer that has some, on the lot, or coming! Without a doubt, the Honda dealers were the hardest to deal with.
First thing to do, is to establish a price for the new vehicle. If they ask about your trade, tell them you are interested in selling price for the NEW vehicle, only. You haven't decided if you are going to trade or sell.
It helps to take along a cooler of drinks and sandwiches!
Beforehand, establish the markup in that vehicle. And have a written offer on your old vehicle, if possible. Keep it hidden right now!
Another Note: All the Honda dealers I talked with, told me that they are allocated a certain number of vehicles. As they sell 1, it is replaced by Honda. To raise their allocation, they need to sell vehicles, quicker than other nearby Honda dealers. Keep that in mind, and Shop the last few days of the month.
OK, so you might have established that there is a $3000 markup. And, They have NO cashback or financing incentives. They probably have a dealer hold back of 2-3%. Edmunds can show you what you need to know about holdbacks and profits. If there is a $3000 profit margin and an additional $600-$900 holdback, you need to know that. The dealer will LIE to you about such things.
Make the best BUY deal you feel is reasonable, that you can live with. Example, you would "Like" to buy it below cost. But you know that ain't gonna happen right now, so you secretly "HOPE" for a $1500 discount on a Pilot.
They stand firm by a $500 discount. Thank em and get up to leave. Pick up your ice chest, and tell them you want to think about it for a couple of days. That will put your decision into the next month. They want to sell a vehicle "This" month. They want to show the profits and hopefull raise their allocation for that vehicle. Remain polite and firm. They will feed you sob stories about their expenses of burning lights, making parole, etc.. Tell em you understand, but those lights will burn whether you buy or not! They might burn a little longer, if you buy and do all your service work there, and send them friends and family members!
When you have worn them down to a resonable price. It is time to deal on the trade.
They offered me $7000 for my truck. Probably trying to get that discount back. I asked to see the appraisers work sheet. They side stepped that, by asking, "Well, what do you expect to get for your truck?" I told them $11,500! (Why should I sound reasonable, when they were trying to rob me?}
I let em BEAT me down to $10,000. They were now offering $9K. By now we are in the owner's office. He was very plesant and very professional. He said that they simply could not put more into a vehicle than they figured they could get at the auction for it. They would try to sell it on the lot, but with the domestics offering the cashbacks and/or "0" percent,that might take a while. I told him I had been offered $10k by a dealer, straight sale. He said, "OK, if you can show me proof that a reasonable dealer offered you $10k for your truck, we will allow you $9500. With the sales tax you won't have to pay, you will have your $10K." He smiled! I smiled! I gave him the CarMax offer and said,"DEAL".
He looked at the paper and laughed out loud. "Deal"!
Was it the best deal, I ever made? NO!
I wanted a new Pilot now, I didn't want to mess with cleaning the truck up, advertising, and fooling with potential buyers, in this market and weather. Maybe I could have gotten the KBB $11,300 for the truck, maybe not.
I could have gotten a better deal on a domestic, probably. I drove em all, researched em all, looked at safety ratings, reliability history, and resale for those we were interested in.
The Pilot was what we wanted, and the Pilot is what we got. Reasonable deal considering all.
Several days later, a guy called me that was purchasing my trade in. He just wanted to make sure everything was "as represented". He was paying $10,900 drive out, including tax, title, etc!
Thanks,
Kip